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X-O
Apr 28, 2002

Long Live The King!



nemesis_hub posted:

This makes me think of a question for the thread. What are the best ďso bad itís goodĒ comics of all time? Who is the Tommy Wiseau of comic books? I know about Fletcher Hanks, and I remember those deranged Double Take comics that Bill Jemas was behind as being hilarious. What else is there? To qualify, itíd have to be entertainingly bad, so notoriously bad stuff like Austenís X-Men doesnít count.

Calling Marville the Tommy Wiseau of comic books is being a little cruel to Tommy I'd say.

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Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017





site posted:

Where is the good part

At the end even where despite being in her early 20's where May suddenly decides to start dressing like her Silver Age grandma self.

Thaddius the Large
Jul 5, 2006

It's in the five-hole!


Dawgstar posted:

At the end even where despite being in her early 20's where May suddenly decides to start dressing like her Silver Age grandma self.

Sounds pretty standard for a Queens hipster?

Endless Mike
Aug 13, 2003

Get running
Start pumping your bunions, I'm coming
I'm the dumbest, who flamethrow your function to Funyons
Flame your crew quicker than Trump fucks his youngest
Now face the flame fuckers your fame and fate's done with



site posted:

Where is the good part

Well, the art is by the Dodsons, so that?

Selachian
Oct 9, 2012



muscles like this! posted:

There's Batman: Odyssey where Neal Adams has Batman espouse a belief in the crackpot expanding Earth theory and Batman travels into a hollow Earth.

Honestly, *anything* Neal Adams writes. Like Skateman. Or his self-published Ms. Mystic, which gave us panels like these:

lifg
Dec 4, 2000
The Young Turks committed the Armenian Genocide.


Muldoon

nemesis_hub posted:

This makes me think of a question for the thread. What are the best ďso bad itís goodĒ comics of all time? Who is the Tommy Wiseau of comic books? I know about Fletcher Hanks, and I remember those deranged Double Take comics that Bill Jemas was behind as being hilarious. What else is there? To qualify, itíd have to be entertainingly bad, so notoriously bad stuff like Austenís X-Men doesnít count.

People still read the Clone Saga. They must get some enjoyment out of how bad it is.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

Psst! It's me!
The Sinister with the mutant gene.


lifg posted:

People still read the Clone Saga. They must get some enjoyment out of how bad it is.

I feel attacked

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.



While mostly poo poo as a whole The Clone Saga contains within it some really good Spidey stories.

Cornwind Evil
Dec 14, 2004


Unmature posted:

Donít you dare call Fletcher Hanks bad

If Hanks had just written his bonkers stories and stopped there, he'd be akin to Ed Wood. But by all accounts he was a total POS which 1) Explains a lot of his writing, and 2) Means he gets no kindness in turn. Hell, he's lucky he managed to be remembered at all: it's better than he deserved.

But yeah, I can't think of anything that goes beyond Marville when it comes to something that went off the rails so hard that by the end it had annihilated the very concept of rails. Compared to that. Frank Miller fails at a sequel (And I thought "DKRIII: Master Race", which he contributed to but had others doing most of the work, was actually pretty good and shows that there's still traces of the talent that turned the 80's comic world on its head) and Aunt May as a young woman has sexual fun is positively sublime.

Cornwind Evil fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Oct 28, 2020

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

Psst! It's me!
The Sinister with the mutant gene.


World Watch maybe? Where the evil Hulk was going to rape the Wonder Woman stand in?

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



lifg posted:

People still read the Clone Saga. They must get some enjoyment out of how bad it is.

I did it because punishing myself is the only way I can feel anymore.

Cornwind Evil
Dec 14, 2004


Rhyno posted:

World Watch maybe? Where the evil Hulk was going to rape the Wonder Woman stand in?

I went and looked this up.

Eh, it's basically a Garth Ennis Avatar comic with the adult dial turned more towards masturbatory appeal than toilet humor with the usual misogyny dusting. I wouldn't really file it under 'so bad it's fun'.

How Wonderful!
Jul 18, 2006


I only have excellent ideas.


Two comics spring to mind as completely incoherent but dramatic and gestural enough to be fun. Both are by two writers very very emblematic of the shortcomings of 90s Big Two comics-- long on ambition and big ideas, short on being able to commit to or execute those ideas with much fluency. One is Terry Kavanagh's Moon Knight which attempts to weld a ton of extra knick knacks and frills to an already baggy concept, and collapses into totally meaningless bombast and hyper-baroque conspiracy theory plotlines by the end.

The other is Howard Mackie's Mutant X, which is essentially if an especially deranged What If? was somehow permitted to last for 32, with Mackie veering wildly around from one grand vision to another until the series just slams into a wall. A nice example is that in the early days of the series, one of the high concepts of this alternate world is that anti-mutant prejudice has totally gone away, and that whatever other troubles there might be, that isn't one of them. Eventually, though, Mackie just changes his mind and says that no, in, anti-mutant prejudice is way worse than in 616 but our viewpoint character just forgot to notice it. It all culminates in a 100% unhinged scheme between Dracula, the Beyonder, and a Goblyn Queen-themed analogue to the Phoenix Force. When I was in middle school it was the best of all possible comics. Mutant X is famously bad but it's also, in my opinion, extremely fun just in how frantically Mackie is throwing ideas around.

nemesis_hub
Nov 27, 2006



These are all good suggestions, and yes I definitely meant writing that aims high and fails spectacularly in a way that ends up funny or entertaining. There is some really goofy Silver Age stuff for sure, and itís entertaining to read, but it doesnít quite hit the feeling Iím looking for. That Neal Adams page is a perfect example because it clearly aims for profundity but is so overwrought that it sounds silly, to the point that itís kinda funny.

How Wonderful! posted:

Two comics spring to mind as completely incoherent but dramatic and gestural enough to be fun. Both are by two writers very very emblematic of the shortcomings of 90s Big Two comics-- long on ambition and big ideas, short on being able to commit to or execute those ideas with much fluency. One is Terry Kavanagh's Moon Knight which attempts to weld a ton of extra knick knacks and frills to an already baggy concept, and collapses into totally meaningless bombast and hyper-baroque conspiracy theory plotlines by the end.

The other is Howard Mackie's Mutant X, which is essentially if an especially deranged What If? was somehow permitted to last for 32, with Mackie veering wildly around from one grand vision to another until the series just slams into a wall. A nice example is that in the early days of the series, one of the high concepts of this alternate world is that anti-mutant prejudice has totally gone away, and that whatever other troubles there might be, that isn't one of them. Eventually, though, Mackie just changes his mind and says that no, in, anti-mutant prejudice is way worse than in 616 but our viewpoint character just forgot to notice it. It all culminates in a 100% unhinged scheme between Dracula, the Beyonder, and a Goblyn Queen-themed analogue to the Phoenix Force. When I was in middle school it was the best of all possible comics. Mutant X is famously bad but it's also, in my opinion, extremely fun just in how frantically Mackie is throwing ideas around.

Now THIS is the good stuff.

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta


Grimey Drawer

Selachian posted:

Honestly, *anything* Neal Adams writes. Like Skateman. Or his self-published Ms. Mystic, which gave us panels like these:



That deer looks like it's vomiting lava.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017





Rhyno posted:

World Watch maybe? Where the evil Hulk was going to rape the Wonder Woman stand in?

Oh, right. The OTHER Chuck Austen comic which as noted only qualifies for the 'so bad' part. I believe he thought he was doing the Authority but sexy.

Edit: I'd forgotten they pretended to fire him off the book before just cancelling it outright because nobody cared.

Dawgstar fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Oct 28, 2020

Karma Tornado
Dec 21, 2007

The worst kind of tornado.


Mackie was good at throwing entertaining concepts out there fast enough that it seemed like they would eventually make sense and eventually go somewhere and that spun maybe twelve issues of competent Ghost Rider plot into like two hundred issues of byzantine Midnight Sons absolute bullshit so good on him for finding his niche

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

Psst! It's me!
The Sinister with the mutant gene.


He took on the main plotting duties during and after the Clone Saga, all the way up to Byrnes run and any time his name is on a Spider-Man comic you know it's gonna be bad.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017





He also finished out X-Factor's original run which was also just an interminable slog. Although that's where we found out Random pulled a Billy Batson and was actually a teenager which does make a lot of sense considering Random.

Angry Salami
Jul 27, 2013

Don't trust the skull.


One of my favourite details in Mutant X is that Havokís basically Quantum Leaped into the body of his counterpart from that universe. And this is never addressed! Everyone who figures out heís not their Havok is basically ďthatís cool, our Havokís a dickĒ and the question of what actually happened to that universeís native Havok never really comes up.

Madkal
Feb 11, 2008

It was all going well, and then the parademons showed up


Fallen Rib

I don't know if I would say "so bad it's good" but I do have a soft spot for Lobo comics (except Nu-Bo which was just bad). I mean you aren't getting high absurd concept but I find them enjoyable so there is that.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

Psst! It's me!
The Sinister with the mutant gene.


Angry Salami posted:

One of my favourite details in Mutant X is that Havok’s basically Quantum Leaped into the body of his counterpart from that universe. And this is never addressed! Everyone who figures out he’s not their Havok is basically “that’s cool, our Havok’s a dick” and the question of what actually happened to that universe’s native Havok never really comes up.

Didn't they state he died and that was why Alex was able to take his body?

Beerdeer
Apr 25, 2006
Big Dick McGee

"Bad Havok" has shown up a few times since I think. Sort of a possessing force.

omnibobb
Dec 3, 2005
Title text'd

Mutant X is one of the few series that I went back and re-bought as an adult. A+ would recommend that to everyone. It's legit not good, but it is wild.

How Wonderful!
Jul 18, 2006


I only have excellent ideas.


In like literally the second to last issue, iirc, Captain American goes berserk at the sight of Canadian super-soldiers and begins to grow like the Hulk, explode people with his mind, and shoot energy out of his mouth and eyes at everybody because he was secretly capable of that all along. It rules so much. It's like a middle school D&D campaign.

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.



How Wonderful! posted:

In like literally the second to last issue, iirc, Captain American goes berserk at the sight of Canadian super-soldiers and begins to grow like the Hulk, explode people with his mind, and shoot energy out of his mouth and eyes at everybody because he was secretly capable of that all along. It rules so much. It's like a middle school D&D campaign.

I just started reading it,

Reed Richards not being smart is kinda great on it's own.

site
Apr 6, 2007

Trans pride, Worldwide
Bitch


How Wonderful! posted:

In like literally the second to last issue, iirc, Captain American goes berserk at the sight of Canadian super-soldiers and begins to grow like the Hulk, explode people with his mind, and shoot energy out of his mouth and eyes at everybody because he was secretly capable of that all along. It rules so much. It's like a middle school D&D campaign.

This sounds hilarious

Selachian
Oct 9, 2012



site posted:

This sounds hilarious



Mutant X was also the comic where the U.S. and Canada fought each other in World War IV.

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.



I've only read two issues of Mutant X and the first issue make it seem like a normal what if where the only difference is Alex Summers survived the plane crash and Scott didn't, but the second issue has a dumb rear end Reed Richards

Unmature
May 9, 2008


I thought you guys were talking about the early 2000s TV show at first

Jordan7hm
Feb 17, 2011

MENS REA? LOL MORE LIKE CHRIS REA AM I RITE





Lipstick Apathy

Selachian posted:



Mutant X was also the comic where the U.S. and Canada fought each other in World War IV.

At least in the marvel universe this isnít totally illogical

Angry Salami
Jul 27, 2013

Don't trust the skull.


In hindsight, Mutant X really should have been an Exiles-type series, with a different wacky alternate universe every issue. But instead they're all crammed into one, so it's just one crazy universe with every idea that caught Mackie's attention for a week thrown together.

Squizzle
Apr 24, 2008

how can i listen to my pirated albums? oh wait.





the best minor detail of mutant x is that they have cerebra but also cerebro and the latter is some sorta douglock deathlok

Vincent
Nov 25, 2005



I have a question about Hawkman (weird, right?).

In his current series, he's Carter Hall, adventuring archaeologist, but from what I know of Hawkman (Carter Hall version) he's supposed to be incredibly violent, headstrong and just kinda brutal in his crime fighting, but in this series he's kinda...just boring? Like, he's not really violent or anything and he seems to have lived for a long, long time (long enough so that he has confidants, friends and helpers from around the world where he'd saved either their great grandfathers or something generations back). I know his whole reincarnation deal, but in his previous lives, he was different people. In this series the people he talks to give the impression that he's been around for a good hundred or so years.

Did Hawkman got rebooted again when he came back in Metal? Is this Carter Hall the same violent guy from this panel? Has he always been alive since, like, the 1800's or something?

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Not having read current Hawkman comics, I don't have an answer for you. I just wanted to make sure you knew what you were doing by asking a question about Hawkman continuity. The seal has been broken.

SonicRulez
Aug 6, 2013

GOTTA GO FIST


Selachian posted:



Mutant X was also the comic where the U.S. and Canada fought each other in World War IV.

Is there some lore I'm missing about the Marvel universe where World War III happened?

Selachian
Oct 9, 2012



SonicRulez posted:

Is there some lore I'm missing about the Marvel universe where World War III happened?

I don't remember the details, but Mutant X took place in an alternate universe where Havok, rather than Cyclops, was the founding leader of the X-Men. Hence Mackie's freedom to go nuts as possible without screwing up the 616 continuity.

Vincent
Nov 25, 2005



Selachian posted:

I don't remember the details, but Mutant X took place in an alternate universe where Havok, rather than Cyclops, was the founding leader of the X-Men. Hence Mackie's freedom to go nuts as possible without screwing up the 616 continuity.

Yup. Mutant X takes place in an alternate reality. Storm got turned int oa vampire by Dracula, Beast started experimenting even more into himself and turned green, dumb and aquatic, Ice-man got cursed by Loki and other things. It had some neat ideas.

radlum
May 13, 2013


Just saw that the Judge Dredd IDW books are on sale on Comixology. Are they good? How is it different than 2000 AD ones?

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lifg
Dec 4, 2000
The Young Turks committed the Armenian Genocide.


Muldoon

I really like them. Itís like Ultimate Spider-Man, it has all the big stories in one consistent plot.

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