The Avengers Thread: America Still Needs Your Help!

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Madrox: Jan 31, 2001; Does whatever
a multiple can.

I guess through wanting to push for a solution, never give up, etc etc. Time-travel arc maybe? Eh, I felt like that was kind of weak myself, and I'm a nerd for Hickman generally.

# ? May 1, 2015 05:12

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# ? Apr 26, 2024 01:50

SalTheBard: Jan 26, 2005; I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!; Fallen Rib

Madrox posted:

It was what I took away as well, before checking the thread. I'm certainly not totally sure that's what happened.

Owen Reece is a Beyonder-designed ticking time-bomb for all the universes where he exists, and shares a simultaneous consciousness. When a universe's Molecule Man dies, it also dies. Doom is a messiah to the Swans. Their religion's most sacred act is executing a Molecule Man, and destroying a universe to thwart the death of all others. Do they even know that's why they're doing it? Not recalling if that was explicitly stated. Either way. they are wholly devoted to finding these men, and ending them. Those that betrayed their tenets, and looked upon Doom's work were enraged enough to turn on him. What could anger them enough to go against their God-Emperor (of) Doom? Perhaps the sight of countless iterations of their enemy, stockpiled instead of destroyed? I do think they were in the Library, which was hurled at the Beyonders, and their pre-emptive destruction was the sudden great loss of universes. I don't know if the spiral universe formation itself was supposed to illustrate that as well, or if Hickman did intend something different. I do hope he maybe writes something to clarify later, but it wouldn't hurt me if it stood on it's own either.

One minor thing from the recent books that has annoyed me a bit, is the huge discrepancy in how the artists have illustrated the Beyonders. From varied organic forms by one, to some of the Transformer knock-off i had in the 80s by the other... I guess if any beings have an excuse to be rendered differently, it's them, but I feel like it happened because they didn't communicate. Maybe I'm not giving them enough credit on a Hickman-plotted title, I don't know.

Maybe I missed this, but are multiverses that have a molecule man the only ones that had incursions? Like if 616 MM had killed himself would that have prevented all this poo poo from happening?

# ? May 1, 2015 05:14

SirDan3k: Jan 6, 2001; Trust me, you are taking this a lot more seriously then I am.

He's actually got it wong about Molecule Man, Molecule Man is a bomb set to go off simultaneously across the multivariate so by killing him before then that universe is saved from the simultaneous destruction planned by the Beyonders. Buuuut it causes instability in the universes and triggered the incursions, double buuuuut this allowed universes to see the end coming and gave them a chance to build arks and/or try to stop it.

Incursions are a symptom of the collapse not a cause. They are the runny nose of the multiversal collapse flu.

# ? May 1, 2015 05:58

Synthbuttrange: May 6, 2007

Man, usually I enjoy working things out but yeah the NA issue, the final where Doom throws a whole bunch of universes at the Beyonders could have been slightly clarified. Just a little bit.

# ? May 1, 2015 06:13

Tamizander Rey: Jul 14, 2004; Gentlemen! Chop off my head with such velocity, that the blood gushing from my neck propels my lifeless body all the way to Phoenix!

SynthOrange posted:

Man, usually I enjoy working things out but yeah the NA issue, the final where Doom throws a whole bunch of universes at the Beyonders could have been slightly clarified. Just a little bit.

Yeah, I can see what Madrox is saying about there being a bunch of Molecule men inside the library, but not so much where everyone thinks the library included bunch of universes inside it. Everything everyone was upset about was off panel, so we don't really know what happened. I'm just looking for something a bit more solid.

Actually, found this explanation on NeoGaf which explains it all perfectly for me:

quote:

"Strange and Doom never actually mention what they see when Doom cracks open the floor. I believe that all the clues of what they saw are littered across the book.

The comic never reveals whats in the floor. You just see purple energy flowing out of it and Strange being absolutely appalled. He can't even muster a "Hoary loving Hosts of Hoggoth."

In the final pages, you can see that Doom throws some sort of building at the Beyonders, it begins to crack open and something emerges in the final panel heading towards the Beyonders rift. The dialogue stating "I throw back in your face".

I propose that in that floor container were the hundreds of thousands of the Molecule Men that Doom and the Black Swans had murdered.

In Doom's boasting when he confronts the Beyonders, "I have taken what is yours and made it mine.", he's not referring to the Owen Reece of 616, he's referring to all Molecule Men across the multiverse that he's collected.

His plan was to blow them the gently caress up with their own weapon at their point of origin.

How can you prove this?
The first molecule man voluntarily lays down in the middle of a symbol and stabbed with a buoy knife. If you look at the panel where Doom is first introduced to the library, the holy of holies room has that same symbol on the doorway. I think the buoy knife, the symbol and the room have a connection, why else is doom just running around stabbing Reece's with the same thing?

Doom is shown what the plan is when the Reece's say:
"He [Doom] doesn't understand it yet."
"Of course not. Explaining it isn't enough."
"No we have to show him".
After stabbing the first Reece, they go to the library where MM says they're unobservable from anything. This is where the other MM's are ending up.

When Doom opens up the floor in front of Strange the purple energy similar to all of how MM's powers have been colored through the whole storyline are rising out. Chronologically, Doom's just explained that Reece is a multi-universal Nuke and then points down into what he's collecting.
" Come and look Stephen. Do you see? Do you understand?"

Why did the Black Swans turn away?

In meeting the first Black Swan:
"Why'd you hurt that man?"
"Because THAT MAN was unwillingly going to hurt us all"
Doom taught the Swans that MM's had to die because they will be a danger to everyone.
Later as the religion grew you see a Black Swan Stabbing a MM in the back with the knife with Doom's dialogue: "Acting on what you believe has a way of solidifying dogma. It changes the way you think. It changes the way you speak."

So blindly following this, it warped their views and grew the religion.

When the 5 Black Swans peeked into the holy of holies room:
"What did you do that made them turn from you?"
"There was nothing done...It was something seen.

What the Swans witnessed in that room was that this great evil they thought they were protecting the universe from, were being collected by the thousands by Rabum Alal. They were lied to.

What was Owen's reaction to the plan?
"It's genius. It's insane. ITS PERFECT."
Owen even says "Hello. Hello. Hello" He's not saying it three times because he's losing his sanity. He's saying Hello to the hundreds and thousand of his dead self. When Strange contests. Owen Says: "Hey! its got MY seal of approval".

The explosion either caused other multiverses to explode due to it, or the bodies of the MM's weren't actually dead until that point and then upon exploding in front of the Beyonders caused the ends of those hundreds of thousands of worlds Reed mentions on the last page. "drat your cause. drat the cost"

I'm thinking the fade to white panels either the plan failed, the beyonders weren't all killed, the detonation was too early or was larger than Doom had thought. It's not his first time miscalculating an explosion."

Tamizander Rey fucked around with this message at 12:42 on May 1, 2015

# ? May 1, 2015 12:33

redbackground: Sep 24, 2007; BEHOLD!
OPTIC BLAST!; Grimey Drawer

Tamizander Rey posted:

Actually, found this explanation on NeoGaf which explains it all perfectly for me:

Thanks for that. Doom's and Strange's looking at a uh, "collection" of MMs never even occurred to me. :/

When he said "I have taken what is yours and made it mine" I thought he was referring to the library.

Art do-over!

# ? May 1, 2015 15:06

PelvicNerve: May 29, 2003; That'll be the day.

Yeah, I like that explanation as it ties everything together and doesn't require any kind of leap.

# ? May 1, 2015 15:30

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

So if it was a collection MM, and they were dead, how bad do you think the smell must have been in that thing?

# ? May 1, 2015 18:32

Happy Noodle Boy: Jul 3, 2002

gfanikf posted:

So if it was a collection MM, and they were dead, how bad do you think the smell must have been in that thing?

I think it was just the energy. When MM kills one and when we meet the first swan after Doom kills another we're shown no body remains.

# ? May 1, 2015 19:24

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Happy Noodle Boy posted:

I think it was just the energy. When MM kills one and when we meet the first swan after Doom kills another we're shown no body remains.

But how does the energy get contained and also I'm still confused does killing a MM destroy a universe or just dick with the Beyonders plan?

Energy trap does make more sense as a pit of decaying corpses is a bit low rent for Doom :doom:

# ? May 1, 2015 20:09

redbackground: Sep 24, 2007; BEHOLD!
OPTIC BLAST!; Grimey Drawer

Would it be a good idea for someone to start up a new Secret Wars thread?, as it might be awhile before a new "Avengers" series actually starts up. Discussion of all of the minis could be handled there too? :shrug:

# ? May 1, 2015 20:23

DivineCoffeeBinge: Mar 3, 2011; Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company

redbackground posted:

Would it be a good idea for someone to start up a new Secret Wars thread?, as it might be awhile before a new "Avengers" series actually starts up. Discussion of all of the minis could be handled there too?

Given that Secret Wars is going to be line-wide I guess you could handle that discussion in the regular Marvel thread but :shrug:

# ? May 1, 2015 20:29

bobkatt013: Oct 8, 2006; Youâre telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

redbackground posted:

Would it be a good idea for someone to start up a new Secret Wars thread?, as it might be awhile before a new "Avengers" series actually starts up. Discussion of all of the minis could be handled there too?

You mean like this?
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3695780&pagenumber=1

# ? May 1, 2015 20:31

hope and vaseline: Feb 13, 2001

gfanikf posted:

But how does the energy get contained and also I'm still confused does killing a MM destroy a universe or just dick with the Beyonders plan?

Energy trap does make more sense as a pit of decaying corpses is a bit low rent for Doom

I don't think killing MMs destroys a universe. The multiversal shared consciousness of the MMs makes them a constant in all realities, and the gradual elimination of that constant at a grand scale is what causes the instabilities and the incursions. It's like removing a law of physics or something. Like others have said, the Beyonders were moving towards a mass extinction button and Doom's solution was a slow extinction with the possibility of removing the source outright.

# ? May 1, 2015 20:35

redbackground: Sep 24, 2007; BEHOLD!
OPTIC BLAST!; Grimey Drawer

bobkatt013 posted:

You mean like this?
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3695780&pagenumber=1

Kind of, but one with all of the minis/series/creative teams (or at least breakdowns of what Battle World/Last Days/Warzones deals are) in the OP would be nice.

# ? May 1, 2015 20:37

Tamizander Rey: Jul 14, 2004; Gentlemen! Chop off my head with such velocity, that the blood gushing from my neck propels my lifeless body all the way to Phoenix!

Happy Noodle Boy posted:

I think it was just the energy. When MM kills one and when we meet the first swan after Doom kills another we're shown no body remains.

Possible, but why would Dr. Strange be rather shocked at a lot of energy?

# ? May 1, 2015 23:43

Wolpertinger: Feb 16, 2011

Tamizander Rey posted:

Possible, but why would Dr. Strange be rather shocked at a lot of energy?

If it was a container holding the kind of energy that could destroy a million universes that'd be pretty shocking.

# ? May 2, 2015 00:08

Air Skwirl: May 13, 2007; Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

The way Hickman writes Doctor Strange, I don't think he'd be upset about a giant pile of dead bodies.

# ? May 2, 2015 00:25

Vakal: May 11, 2008

Scarlet Witch's power is usually colored as purple isn't it? Maybe Doom had a Wanda reality-bomb.

# ? May 2, 2015 02:38

Gatts: Jan 2, 2001; Goodnight Moon; Nap Ghost

What if they got Squirrel Girl? What if they got Purple Man to influence the Beyonders?

# ? May 2, 2015 03:47

Air Skwirl: May 13, 2007; Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

Gatts posted:

What if they got Squirrel Girl? What if they got Purple Man to influence the Beyonders?

I'm sure there's going to be a What-If for Secret Wars (Though who the gently caress is going to host it?), and if there isn't a one page story about Squirrel Girl fixing the incursions almost instantly I'll be very disappointed.

# ? May 2, 2015 03:54

Codependent Poster: Oct 20, 2003

Gatts posted:

What if they got Squirrel Girl? What if they got Purple Man to influence the Beyonders?

They're probably beyond (heh) Purple Man's influence.

But Doreen would have a nice chat with them and figure it all out. If only she had time.

# ? May 2, 2015 04:03

algebra testes: Mar 5, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

Thanks for the insights guys.

Look, out of all the guys that write comics I think Hickman is one of the best, and very creative. But he really shows and doesn't tell a whole lot and I feel that the impact is lessened when things aren't explained very clearly. That's may just be me, but I think that last New Avengers is an example of that.

But overall, I have really enjoyed it.

Even if the series did bog down at points, this book was one of the best I've read at certain moments.

# ? May 2, 2015 09:59

SalTheBard: Jan 26, 2005; I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!; Fallen Rib

SalTheBard posted:

I'm really excited about the cast but it will be a very different book that's for drat sure

If the FCBD issue is an indication All New Avengers is going to kick rear end

# ? May 2, 2015 17:19

PaybackJack: May 21, 2003; You'll hit your head and say: 'Boy, how stupid could I have been. A moron could've figured this out. I must be a real dimwit. A pathetic nimnal. A wretched idiotic excuse for a human being for not having figured these simple puzzles out in the first place...As usual, you've been a real pantload!

LordPants posted:

Thanks for the insights guys.

Look, out of all the guys that write comics I think Hickman is one of the best, and very creative. But he really shows and doesn't tell a whole lot and I feel that the impact is lessened when things aren't explained very clearly. That's may just be me, but I think that last New Avengers is an example of that.

But overall, I have really enjoyed it.

Even if the series did bog down at points, this book was one of the best I've read at certain moments.

It's kind of funny that you say he shows but doesn't tell since the reverse criticism was one of the major complaints of the early part of his run. I guess in fairness it's not like you can't be one and then the other; they're not mutually exclusive. I think he did a good job of building up the players and then delivered a pretty satisfying conclusion. I think part of the remaining mystery of what Doom did will be told by Strange or Doom to the remaining heroes that end up on Battleworld. For now it remains somewhat of a mystery but the whole story will likely be revealed as part of the Secret Wars main story as the heroes rally to finish off the Beyonders that survived.

# ? May 2, 2015 17:37

redbackground: Sep 24, 2007; BEHOLD!
OPTIC BLAST!; Grimey Drawer

Doctor Strange and Hyperion, you get out of that 2-page spread right this instant!

# ? May 3, 2015 06:01

Yvonmukluk: Oct 10, 2012; Everything is Sinister

redbackground posted:

Doctor Strange and Hyperion, you get out of that 2-page spread right this instant!

Also weird that Carol's still in her SHIELDvengers colours when the Secret Wars #1 preview has her back in her full-colour version. I mean, I thought her costume was created by her powers, but why would she change the colour scheme mid-fight?

# ? May 3, 2015 15:00

Senor Candle: Nov 5, 2008

I'm gonna cross post this from the digital comics thread

Almost all of Hickman's Avengers run is on sale in case someone wants to binge to get ready for Secret Wars

Avengers
https://www.comixology.com/Avengers-by-Jonathan-Hickman-The-Complete-Series/bundle/916?916_pg=2
New Avengers
https://www.comixology.com/New-Avengers-by-Jonathan-Hickman-The-Complete-Series/bundle/925

The only thing not on sale is Infinity, which is here
https://www.comixology.com/Infinity/comics-series/11126?ref=Y29taWMvdmlldy9kZXNrdG9wL2JyZWFkY3J1bWJz

And here is redbackground's handy dandy reading order!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kXN9H4EYsw8c_QeDdSdemJioWeAqXAnznwTtPGUoBmE/edit#gid=0

# ? May 4, 2015 19:56

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

The annuals at least for NA are not on sale either.

# ? May 4, 2015 20:02

Senor Candle: Nov 5, 2008

gfanikf posted:

The annuals at least for NA are not on sale either.

That's because those weren't written by Hickman.

# ? May 4, 2015 20:04

Marshal Prolapse: Jun 23, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Senor Candle posted:

That's because those weren't written by Hickman.

Yeah, but if I recall NA at least tied into the story. Avengers was a very fun and sweet, but total one off.

# ? May 4, 2015 20:08

Senor Candle: Nov 5, 2008

gfanikf posted:

Yeah, but if I recall NA at least tied into the story. Avengers was a very fun and sweet, but total one off.

I mean it reinforced what he was doing with Dr. Strange, and was a good issue, but not really necessary to the story.

# ? May 4, 2015 20:10

hope and vaseline: Feb 13, 2001

Dumb question, is Kot's Secret Avengers from last year the start of that creative team or am I missing a previous run?

# ? May 8, 2015 19:10

ElNarez: Nov 4, 2009

Kot co-wrote the final arc of Volume 2 with Spencer, in order to set up his volume. You don't really need to read it, just start at #1.

# ? May 8, 2015 19:15

hope and vaseline: Feb 13, 2001

Cool thanks, someone showed me those panels of MODOK and Maria Hill and I need this in my life

# ? May 8, 2015 19:22

Crusader: Apr 11, 2002

New Hickman interview: http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/this-is-battleworld-hickman-brevoort-discuss-secret-wars-1

quote:

So these characters are sole survivors of the Marvel Universe?

Hickman: "Secret Wars" is just really seven more issues of them hanging out on the space ship.

# ? May 8, 2015 20:19

Yvonmukluk: Oct 10, 2012; Everything is Sinister

Crusader posted:

New Hickman interview: http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/this-is-battleworld-hickman-brevoort-discuss-secret-wars-1

I smell sitcom!

# ? May 8, 2015 20:32

redbackground: Sep 24, 2007; BEHOLD!
OPTIC BLAST!; Grimey Drawer

Crusader posted:

New Hickman interview: http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/this-is-battleworld-hickman-brevoort-discuss-secret-wars-1

SW#2 sounds pretty pretty pretty good.

# ? May 8, 2015 20:34

SirDan3k: Jan 6, 2001; Trust me, you are taking this a lot more seriously then I am.

Yvonmukluk posted:

I smell sitcom!

Spiderman: Somebody didn't flush!

*Cyclops makes degeneration x gesture with his arms* cue canned laughter.

# ? May 8, 2015 21:13

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# ? Apr 26, 2024 01:50

bobkatt013: Oct 8, 2006; Youâre telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

SirDan3k posted:

Spiderman: Somebody didn't flush!

*Cyclops makes degeneration x gesture with his arms* cue canned laughter.

Spider-man would be teaching Beyonder how to use the toilet not Cyclops.

# ? May 8, 2015 21:16

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > BSS: Bisexual Super Son > The Avengers Thread: America Still Needs Your Help!

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