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Not really, if you have extras just save them up to trade for other staples you're missing or start trading up to power!
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May 21, 2014 20:46
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Chill la Chill posted:Dang, thought you could get away with a couple 2-ofs of forces or wastelands in niche decks. Might just start trading for power cuz there's not much else to trade for. Maybe a bunch of goyfs so I can scrooge dive into them! Cards like Force and Wasteland tend to be pretty important early on and get less useful as the game progresses so you almost always want to run a play set so you can be more likely to see them in the turns where their utility is highest. TheKingofSprings posted:Wasteland's a special case, some midrange decks like Esper Stoneblade/Deathblade usually have 2-3. That used to be the case before but not so much these days. The meta has shifted. Between TNN making Color Demands a lot higher and Deathrite Shaman adding security against the threat of Wasteland Esper/Deathblade pilots are biting the bullet, cutting their basics and playing the full set of Wasteland.
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May 22, 2014 00:32
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Probably way wrong but Faerie Macabre seems like the perfect Graveyard Hate for the Faeries Deck.
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May 23, 2014 05:14
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I figured the inclusion of Leyline was pretty indicative that free and immediate 'Yard hate was a priority. Your point stands though, a 2/2 body for 3 isn't going to do much, and Leyline and Relic are better free early hate. I just hate running Leylines, they make for such poo poo draws in the mid game. Gross.
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May 23, 2014 07:37
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Didn't the final list we collectively brewed look a lot different, like transmute cards and other shennanigans to consistently look for descendants paths/mutavault/changelings?
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May 29, 2014 05:39
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That deck looks really cool but I'm wildly uncomfortable with the idea of basically having nothing that can cope with a single resolved threat.
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May 29, 2014 23:11
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For those of you who ask or read the discussion on budget lists and are sort of hesitant to believe posters who say, you can win consistently with them Manaless Dredge just got 6th at an SCG Open. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68364
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Jun 2, 2014 06:07
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Aston posted:Yeah, it's by no means the worst deck ever to get into, but I know I would certainly not have a lot of fun with the deck and paying upwards of $100 for the Ichorids, Bridges and Dryad Arbors alone would leave a bad taste in my mouth. That has way more to do with you having the typical bullshit "its not real magic" attitude than the deck being bad. Aston posted:as you're basically not even playing the game. Dredge/Breakfast Burrito/Charbelcher they require plenty of knowledge of the format and test skill. Especially after sideboard. The fact that a horde of morons got butt-hurt and deemed dredge "not real magic" is dumb. Aston posted:Not to mention that for a budget deck it's still over $400 Yes and the average standard deck could also be upwards of 400 dollars if I was a mouth-breather and bought every single card at the highest priced retailer. Or we could be honest and admit that the vast majority of that deck is bulk that could be had for cheap, and plenty of copies of the expensive cards can be had for 10 to 5 dollars less than their highest listings. You can still cash out of a standard deck and go out and get nearly all the expensive pieces for a deck like this or other budget options and then leisurely trade for the missing pieces. And for that you can have a Legacy deck, one that can put up results, and you can have a lot of fun.
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Jun 2, 2014 22:26
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Aston posted:You certainly seem to be very defensive about this and similar decks. Its because your complaints are nonsensical dude. You complained about the price, but couldn't be bothered to shop around, and you're bemoaning how a narrow, budget alternative that can still post a result doesn't get you "very far into the format" completely forgetting that the other option is usually not being in the format at all. In my opinion Manaless Dredge and Breakfast Burrito are at this moment the single best options for sub 350 Legacy Decks that can still post results. If they aren't to your taste that's fine but don't hem and haw about them being bad options without providing some alternatives man. That's not adding anything to the discussion and just comes off as complaining.
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Jun 2, 2014 23:46
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I know its super popular and a good deck but playing Affinity on MODO is just misery. UWR after UWR deck with 4 Bolts 4 Paths 4 Helix and 4 Snapcasters is just so obnoxious.
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Jun 3, 2014 06:25
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Is it at all possible to do any better than breaking even with 2 mans on MODO right now?
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Jun 3, 2014 10:43
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always be closing posted:I dont think so, and you gotta have the right bot, packs are worthless nowadays, drat recession. That's a real shame. I pretty much just had my best run winning 10 2 mans on the trot and was so bummed when I only got 20 tickets for my troubles.
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Jun 3, 2014 11:00
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Do you seriously just wait for threads to mention reprints so you can come in with a whiny passive aggressive zinger about WOTC reprint policy?ManiacMatt posted:More want to have fun and I have no dual lands right now. Manaless Dredge and Breakfast Burrito are undeniably the best choices IMO. Sac-Land Tendrils is neat and I get why people like it but its too slow. Its not going to put up results with any sort of consistency. Burrito and Dredge will though. They've both placed as far as Top 8 in SCG Opens. Sure they aren't making the Top 8 every other week like the established archetypes are, but they are going to do great work for you at your local legacy tournament. Its going to be what 3-4 rounds? Yeah a deck like those two is going to do work for you, especially if your local Legacy scene is relatively new. Please don't build the Dual Land-less version of some other list you like, or whatever random "budget" pile has one or two interactions from a more established deck. Its a mistake tons of people trying to break into Legacy make. Spend your limited budget on a deck in that budget, and then slowly move into something else. You'll have more fun and learn more playing Burrito for half a year than you will making Sac-Land Tendrils and getting brutally wastelanded out of every game.
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Jun 11, 2014 03:09
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C-Euro posted:Any recommendations for a certain Legacy Storm list or archetype to pursue? I sinned and built Sac-Land Tendrils anyway because there only started being a Legacy scene in my area a couple months ago, but I do want to slowly work it towards a legitimate build for some day down the road. Preferably one that runs Burning Wish, since that's the only money card I had to buy in order to build SLT. Honestly you're likely in shallow enough that you could pivot to any archetype you want without too much trouble. You're not exactly locked in with 100's of dollars in staple cards for a particular archetype yet so you don't necessarily need to plan on building a Storm deck. If Storm is what you have your eyes set on then the best way to go about is ANT. Most lists are pretty similar. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=67022 http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68713 Also I wouldn't say you "sinned" building SLT. A deck that gets you playing Legacy is better than no deck at all. It's just I think when people are on a budget they want to maximize their ability to not just play but win. A lot of the budget Legacy decks out there aren't really capable and losing a bunch can really kill the interest in any format. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 13:06
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AnacondaHL posted:Haha, I hope you've never said this to an actual Storm player; I can almost hear AJ tilting out. I figured explaining that minutia wasn't important to a player with little to no experience in the format so I just linked two examples of the most played versions of the archetype. I know lots of people feel the distinction is super important but I don't, and especially not in the context of a brand new player. In my experience they play very similarly, they are variations on a theme, like the way Esper Stoneblade and Esper Deathblade are very similar decks. It would be fine for experienced players to get into the nitty gritty of what separates one from the other, really break down the pros and cons and all that but none of that matters to a new player. When you don't have any of the cards Storm, is Storm. There is a reason SCG refers to it as ANT all around, because at this point ANT is basically synonymous with Storm Combo. It's just kind of how it goes now. These days I've seen newish players register "Rock Aggro" lists because to them Rock is synonymous with G/B, it might not be accurate but a lot of the names and short hand has gotten away from what it used to mean. Elyv posted:I'm not actually interested in moving into Legacy, but if you have shocks how bad of an idea is it to use shocks instead of real duals if you're on a budget? Let's phrase this question differently. "How bad would it be if I started every game at 11 life" Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 01:31
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Anyone else playing Vintage yet? I forgot what an absurdly crazy format it is. I'm playing the worst deck sorry! 4 Bazaar of Baghdad 4 City of Brass 2 Dakmor Salvage 4 Undiscovered Paradise 4 Bloodghast 2 Fatestitcher 1 Flame-Kin Zealot 4 Golgari Grave-Troll 2 Golgari Thug 4 Narcomoeba 4 Stinkweed Imp 4 Bridge from Below 4 Cabal Therapy 2 Darkblast 3 Dread Return 4 Mental Misstep 4 Nature's Claim 4 Serum Powder Side: 4 Chain of Vapor 2 Ichorid 4 Ingot Chewer 4 Leyline of the Void 1 Unmask not a perfect list, open to suggestions Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 14:16
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It was alright when I tried it. Seemed like it was helping me combo off when I was already comboing off. I've yet to really run into a spot where I think "man, I'd love to see a Titan Right now" I'd rather find space in the main for Ichorids before running a titan but I could be wrong. Biggest problem is predictably sideboard, especially against the Oath decks. I can hit their yard hate or their oath but usually not both before I eat a griselbrand. EDIT: In fact I don't think I've won a single match, hate is way strong. Anyone know a good primer for Dredge? I've been playing for hours and I don't even win half of game one. I'm sure its just my operations and decisions being poo poo, so I could use some kind of guide. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 15:09
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Zorak posted:Turns out the Pauper Madness deck is really good Care to share a list?
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Jun 15, 2014 18:46
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L0cke17 posted:I suggest cutting the Nature's Claim from the main I tested this for a while and wasn't loving it. Pretty much the only deck that consistently troubles me Game 1 is Oath of Druids, which is taking maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the first games from me. Turn 1 or 2 Oaths are possible an obnoxious amount of the time and a resolved Griselbrand is a very tough thing to beat. An evoked Ingot Chewer is great at getting by Mental Misstep but I think maybe claim might be worth it since it can hit Oath as well? I'm sure plenty of why I'm losing to Oath is on me but the deck seems everywhere on MODO and it sucks looking at an Ingot Chewer in hand when you know a Claim would win you the game or give you a fighting chance.
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Jun 16, 2014 16:41
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I added to the it to the board but Wispmare wouldn't go in the main over Nature's Claim because of shop decks
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Jun 16, 2014 17:56
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L0cke17 posted:Maybe just try ditching Missteps for Ingot Chewers and run both? Misstep does basically nothing against Oath for you, and they probably have more countermagic so you're not winning any wars. Yeah I might try it. Its frustrating at the moment. I think Games 2 and 3 are really tough since I lack experience and while plenty of other players do too, their post board plan is a lot simpler. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 21:33
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Lots of people are way too reckless with their mulligans to find the hate against Dredge and I've won multiple games off a single hardcast Bloodghast or Narcomoeba
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Jun 18, 2014 21:18
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AATREK CURES KIDS posted:People simply don't understand Dredge. I think one of the best ways to get better at Vintage or Legacy is to play Dredge for a while. What I think makes Dredge so good for that is that your best and most powerful resource is both extremely fragile and readily visible to your opponent. This forces you to really zero in on the choices you make and the lines you elect to take because your opponent has half the information about what you are going to do right there in front of them and when you make a mistake its just glaringly, painfully apparent. So far in Vintage the experience has been very similar for me. Cabal Therapy right now is such a challenging card, and I've lost count of how many times not naming the right card has cost me the game and only after I've mad my choice and seen my opponents hand did I notice that all the information about what I should have named was there for me but I didn't notice. C-Euro posted:Why is this? He is discussing Dredge specifically, where very few spells are meaningful for directly interacting with your opponent. Games can quickly devolve into weird states where a 2/2 Grizzly Bear is the most serious game ending threat on the table or hand. Its a crazy thing to think about in a format as powerful as vintage and a lot of new players are being caught completely off guard by it. They mull to 5 to find their hate card, you hit them with unmasks and cabal therapies and while you can't use your graveyard a resolved Narcomoeba is suddenly winning the game. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 21:50
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Been playing a ton of Vintage lately. Really recommend the format, buy in now and don't miss out, I'd even go so far as to sell stuff I wasn't playing regularly, its well worth it and it won't be this cheap for years probably. Been running Dredge which I put together for around 240 dollars, I imagine its a bit more now, I think the price of Undiscovered Paradise jumped by a lot. Think I've settled into this list for now. The Combo lists are faster but I think maybe less resilient? I'm hardly an authority but this feels a little grindier, Dread Return was cool but it got countered way too many times just feels unecessary to be honest, the reanimation package was the first I thing I cut almost every game 2 and 3, so I figured why not cut to begin with and toss in some tech for the mirror? Still an incredibly good Game 1 deck, and if I wasn't a retard it'd probably win a whole lot more matches than it does. As it stands I'm just losing all the time but I'm nearly certain its my fault, Deck is solid. Main 4 Petrified Field 4 City of Brass 4 Undisovered Paradise 4 Bazaar of Baghdad 4 Serum Powder 4 Bridge from Below 4 Cabal Therapy 4 Bloodghast 4 Narcomoeba 3 Ichorid 4 Golgari Grave-Troll 4 Stinkweed Imp 2 Golgari Thug 2 Darkblast 4 Ingot Chewer 1 Ancient Grudge 4 Leyline of the Void Board 4 Nature’s Claim 4 Chain of Vapor 3 Wispmare 4 Unmask
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Jul 1, 2014 04:44
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I guess I didn't explain fully, its not that Dread Return wasn't good enough or whatever or that I couldn't play around it getting countered, its just that it feels very unnecessary. It was the number 1 thing I would cut nearly every single sideboard game. and I can win Game 1 without it as regularly as I could with it, so why bother? I cut it for unmask/petrified field at first, and that was good but I saw enough of the mirror that trading Unmask for the Leyline from the sideboard seemed reasonable. Its worked out well so far.
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Jul 1, 2014 06:13
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I mean I agree and disagree. Like Dredge Burrito has space for interaction, but its not readily apparent so players might dislike it. Still this is Legacy, play what you like not what other people want to play against.
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Jul 2, 2014 16:29
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Misdirection would be my go to "budget option" for FoW. Its completely dead against a lot of things and by no means should you consider it a viable long term option, but if you're looking for something to help you out in those counter-wars against the unfair decks, its pretty solid there. It can also save a Lord from a Bolt or StP you're just going to have to be so incredibly mindful of its shortcomings in many matchups. Conspiracy copies are also as low as 4 dollars.
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Jul 2, 2014 18:07
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This weekend is probably the last great chance to buy Vintage and Legacy staples on MTGO at killer prices so if you have any interest in the format now is the time to pick up some Forces or Tundras. If you're even on the fence and have a few spare tix, get a few playables, its just such a good time.
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Jul 5, 2014 06:32
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redux posted:What makes you think things won't continue the slow downward trend for a while longer? Beyond the old client shutting off in a little over a week, Vintage Masters is still going to be in the store and drafted until early October. Right now there is a very healthy flow of packs, that's going to turn into an absolute trickle when M15 is released. There are some signs that prices are about as low as its reasonable to expect at the moment. Grim Lavamancer is more than Ichorid, Temple of Malady is more than Savannah, Duel Deck Gush, is more than the foil VM version with the same art. There's lots of these sort of little things which make me think "this isn't right" it makes me believe strongly that there won't be as good a chance to buy in, I don't see some of those cards getting any cheaper, and even if this week isn't THE week to go in, I can't imagine you'll be overpaying by more than a fraction of a ticket. Jabor posted:Why would "this weekend" be the last opportunity then, when M15 doesn't appear on modo until the 25th? It's less about this being the specific weekend and say, next weekend they spike in price, its more that buying in now carries very little risk. I just don't see some of this stuff getting cheaper and if you're interested in them its a great time. Ichorid gets Legacy and Vintage play and right now its being opened in a set with a premium price and costs about the same as Deicide. That strikes me as a fundamentally wrong. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Jul 5, 2014 |
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Jul 5, 2014 07:18
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AATREK CURES KIDS posted:Are you sure? I'm planning to buy the Power Nine once they bottom out, but I expect that to happen when the client changes on July 16 and some players sell their collections. To anyone who didn't experience the v2 to v3 switchover, it's hard to explain how much of a big deal it will be. I expect we'll see less of an insane collapse because MTGFinance has turned the average Magic Online player into a slightly more rational actor, but I still think the lowest prices will be just after the client change. I explained my reasoning and I don't think it was too unsound but I am admit when something has caught me by surprise. I think for the vast majority of staples I wasn't too far off, some stuff has dropped by a small portion of a ticket, some has risen slightly, and basically for the majority of staples that aren't power I think you would have come out a little ahead or pretty close to even had you bought what you needed this last week. Power though is definitely operating on a completely different wavelength. It could be that it was just being overvalued to begin with and finally as everything else was approaching bottom, the Power also had to finally drop and we're just seeing it all at once instead of little by little like we did with most things like say, LED. As far as the switch from one client to the other. I don't think it will be as catastrophic as the other switch. They've had both running concurrently for some time now. I'm sure a significant portion of the player base will throw a big massive baby fit but I'm not confident it will shake prices up by too much, and if they do, its going to be very temporary. There's a lot of disagreement between people in the silly mtg finance community about what the rollover will do and I just didn't feel like gambling. I bought what I needed at pretty close to the bottom, I overpaid by a few tix on somethings compared to today, but I underpaid on others, I'm perfectly happy having bought in when I did. We will see if that holds as the community switches clients.
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Jul 7, 2014 16:16
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Most importantly than just power, stuff like duals all went up too. Personally I don't think they will drop much during the client switch unless something truly breaks as far as the client. Standard prices will drop a lot, and some modern staples will see a slight dip, but I can't imagine the type of player that spends money on Duals and Power throwing a fit and selling their collection over the client change. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Jul 9, 2014 |
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Jul 9, 2014 22:32
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Wadjamaloo posted:People get confused about aether vial, its not an aggro card and its never been in any aggro decks. its an easy mistake to make when you look at successful creature based strategies like goblins and merfolk
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Jul 15, 2014 19:13
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Do you guys think its safe to say Dredge is the worst of the "able to win a tournament" Vintage decks. It's interesting to see how little its won on MODO compared to the rest of the Meta-game.
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Aug 1, 2014 17:39
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LordSaturn posted:Bazaar Dredge is frequently called the strongest deck in Vintage, but it also folds the hardest to hate cards. When you look for Dredge in the results of a tournament, check the sideboards - if nobody won playing Dredge, it's because enough people packed enough bin hate to stop it. I think thats a moot point. No one playing vintage is ever going to lack a sideboard for Dredge. I'm not saying the Deck is dead or not powerful but I think it's now firmly not a winning choice. All other things being equal if you are going to sit down and choose a deck to try and win a Vintage tournament, Dredge has to be pretty low on the list.
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Aug 1, 2014 18:27
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AATREK CURES KIDS posted:It's way cheaper than the other decks in Vintage, because it doesn't run Power Nine cards, except some builds that have Ancestral Recall and/or Black Lotus. It's powerful against an unprepared meta, but everyone is preparing for it. My list online has a maindeck Nihil Spellbomb, every tutor, and 7 sideboard cards against Dredge. I really think it's too much and I need to cut some of them, because I haven't gone up against dredge in a week and haven't seen a good Dredge player in longer. That's all true but still irrelevant to what I'm saying. If tomorrow you were going to choose a deck to have the best chance you could of winning a Vintage tournament would Dredge be that choice? Not "oh well I don't have power I guess Dredge is a solid choice" or the incredibly unlikely "I think everyone forgot and won't bring much hate" just flat out "I want the best chance to win" would Dredge be on the list of options? I don't think so. A few years ago I would have said there were enough reasons to still consider Dredge but the hate has gotten tons better and Dredge hasn't improved much at all.
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Aug 1, 2014 22:18
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Angry Grimace posted:I don't think I agree with that. What hate is killing Dredge so badly that can't be anti-hated? LordSaturn posted:It's cool if you want to play something else, but pretending that Bazaar of Baghdad isn't one of the Five Pillars of Vintage is just absurd. For like, the third time, that's not what I'm saying. Its not a winning choice at the moment. The same way say, Storm in Modern isn't a winning choice. If you want to win a Vintage tournament today, Bazaar Dredge is not a strong choice. That doesn't mean its dead and it doesn't mean its gone from the meta. Ciprian Maricon posted:I'm not saying the Deck is dead or not powerful but I think it's now firmly not a winning choice. I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. At no point did I say Dredge was "dead" or Bazaar no longer "a pillar of the format" I think its a bad choice right now, and will continue to be a bad choice until something is printed to shift the meta-game because as long as Bazaar still exists no Vintage deck is going to stop devoting an immense amount of the board to powerful hate cards.
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Aug 2, 2014 03:02
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suicidesteve posted:I hate burn. I don't want to resort to playing burn because it has nothing to do with my ability to play Magic. You should play burn just so you can learn how incredibly wrong this statement is, it would make you a better player. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 19:28
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Burn decks have options against combo decks and you need to use them. What specific combo decks are giving you problems? "Combo" could be dozens of decks in Legacy, so if you let us know specifically what is in your local meta we can make suggestions about your SB and lines of play to improve the match-up.
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Aug 22, 2014 17:41
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Without something like Sol-Lands giving you the ability to power it out early and power through it with big spells I don't think chalice will do enough in modern. No way I'd take it over Hurkyl's Recall, Drawing a chalice will never get you back into a game when you're behind.
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Aug 26, 2014 20:19
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edit: double post
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Aug 26, 2014 20:19
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