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derp posted:Everyone knows that obsessed weirdos create the best art it's a necessary but not sufficient condition, as i learned to my dismay
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Feb 19, 2021 06:28
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Get real, I'll read any author unless I get too nauseated by their viewpoint to physically continue (e.g., Pentti Linkola). I'm just surprised that TBB namechecks him as the fascist author while I know him as the "jerk off to my adolescent neighbor doing chin-ups" author lol. If anything, his ethnonationalism casts a whole new light on his fetishization of the perfect male Japanese form! All those dudes love the Mannerbund, womanhood is too inherently soft/corrupted/corrupting to act as a true object of eros
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Feb 19, 2021 07:53
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tbh a no-poo poo overchud with real literary ability would be insanely interesting in the current moment imo, but i suspect that chudism is a sincerely anti-literary movement and that they're all going to be writing tom clancy-style dross if they write at all mishima's aesthetic programme is very easy to link to his ultranationalism, and mishima himself was a deeply weird and probably rather unpleasant chap. his books absolutely own, though, and not in spite of that
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Feb 19, 2021 10:32
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Tbh I’d support Linkola’s ideas being implemented, as long as I get removed as a defective
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Feb 19, 2021 12:12
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V. Illych L. posted:tbh a no-poo poo overchud with real literary ability would be insanely interesting in the current moment imo, but i suspect that chudism is a sincerely anti-literary movement and that they're all going to be writing tom clancy-style dross if they write at all yeah i'm unsympathetic to the 'mishima just owns and fascism has nothing to do with it' viewpoint cos the fetishisation of death and destruction is like a key part of what he's talking about a lot of the time, and he also embodies the contradictions at the heart of that fetishisation in an interesting way. like he's not a european fascist for obvious reasons, but it's dishonest to deny the links between yukio mishima thought and historical fascist movements. the books are really good though and you don't have to think you'd be able to have a nice beer and a chat with the man to recognise that
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Feb 19, 2021 13:53
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good points yall. mishima's experiences and his ideas about life and death must be a part of why i enjoy his books so much. i find them to have an alien kind of darkness about them that makes me feel a bit sick while reading them, and that contrasts with the beauty of the writing in such a way that makes it just amazing to read. and yes i'd agree that is likely because of his weird ideas not in spite of them. but i never have been one to be interested in the life history or opinions or favorite foods of the authors i like. in fact i usually go out of my way not to learn much of anything about authors, because i prefer not to be influenced before reading something by what they thought their books were supposed to mean. so my first reaction to these kinds of things are always 'ugh, who cares'
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Feb 19, 2021 16:54
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snailshell posted:Can't I just fetishize male armpits and develop a choking shame about my own perverse sexuality in peace, without keeping company with nationalists??
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Feb 19, 2021 17:51
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It would be interesting to talk about what one IS doing when reading. I don't have a good idea of what's really going on. I started reading the thread non-USA favorites because I was tired of horny white professors. The feeling of not understanding AT ALL is a big dell for me.
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Feb 19, 2021 18:56
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reading is that thing where you hallucinate images and feelings from looking at black squiggles
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Feb 19, 2021 19:14
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Reading engages our remnants of the bicameral mind and we hallucinize an "author" who doesn't exist. also pentti linkola rules
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Feb 19, 2021 22:19
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I think on the individual level certain authors or ideas don't need to be avoided. Just read widely so you're not inundated with fascist or sexist or whatever else ideas. Also don't give fascists money if you can help it. On a collective level, political movements should and do push their own art and attack the art of opposing political movements. Obviously, it would not be a good sign if a book by a fascist author was the number 1 book in the US right now, and I would absolutely expect and support condemnation of such an author/book.
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Feb 19, 2021 23:00
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Kinda putting the cart before the horse here. The problem in this scenario isn't that a bestselling book turned millions fascist; it's that millions of fascists were there to make it a bestseller. (It's safe to assume that they'd be fascists because a bestseller's readership is necessarily uncritical and politically sympathetic.) The book itself is beside the point, and condemning it as fascist is redundant (these fascists are not going to change their minds after they and their book are correctly identified as fascist).
Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 23:16
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Ras Het posted:Reading engages our remnants of the bicameral mind and we hallucinize an "author" who doesn't exist. also pentti linkola rules thank you
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Feb 19, 2021 23:42
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Kinda putting the cart before the horse here. The problem in this scenario isn't that a bestselling book turned millions fascist; it's that millions of fascists were there to make it a bestseller. (It's safe to assume that they'd be fascists because a bestseller's readership is necessarily uncritical and politically sympathetic.) The book itself is beside the point, and condemning it as fascist is redundant (these fascists are not going to change their minds after they and their book are correctly identified as fascist). Yeah I'm not suggesting that a book would turn people fascist or that condemning a book as a fascist would change people's minds. But I would still expect an antifascist movement to condemn the book and I would tell my family not to read it. My point is that you as an individual can make the decision to read anything you want. But I would still expect anti-racists as a political movement to try to stop people from reading racist authors and I'm fine with that. I'm sure enough in my political views that reading a fascist isn't going to turn me fascist, and also sure enough in my political views that im not going to complain about cancel culture or whatever. Like I might read mishima but I'm not then going to tweet about how great he is and recommend everyone should read
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Feb 20, 2021 00:06
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Duck Rodgers posted:
lol
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Feb 20, 2021 00:59
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adding “no tweeting about mishima” to my big list of steps to take to preserve the ideological health of the Volk
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Feb 20, 2021 01:40
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Oh my god.
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Feb 20, 2021 01:49
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snailshell posted:Can't I just fetishize male armpits and develop a choking shame about my own perverse sexuality in peace, without keeping company with nationalists?? Good news: you can do all these things by reading The Last Temptation of Christ.
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Feb 20, 2021 01:54
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I fully support your move. Think of the millions of disaffected young men who could've been turned into dangerous white nationalists if you had tweeted about the works of a gay japanese man. You've single handedly prevent the rise of not only the Fourth Reich, but probably the fifth and sixth as well.
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Feb 20, 2021 04:10
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I get this is the comedy forum and I have laughed a lot at these posts, but I truly am interested in ways one can handle ideas. Or ways to think about what to do with Mishima's nationalism. Is it dangerous on any level? Or what is going on when you're reading a book that isn't keeping company with an author. What is it? If you don't want to post about it you could tell me what critic to read about this.
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Feb 20, 2021 04:17
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The Death of the author and all that. You must judge a piece of work on its own terms without evoking the creator. Also, if you think Mishima is bad definitely don't Google Celine who was a literal Nazi but also a prolific writer. I think Mishima's performative nationalism can look like Fascism but I don't think that should discount his works. Likewise with Celine's tbh.
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Feb 20, 2021 04:46
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ThePopeOfFun posted:I get this is the comedy forum and I have laughed a lot at these posts, but I truly am interested in ways one can handle ideas. Or ways to think about what to do with Mishima's nationalism. Is it dangerous on any level? Or what is going on when you're reading a book that isn't keeping company with an author. What is it? This idea of danger is also nonsense. Presumably, the "dangerous" scenario is liking a Mishima or Hamsun or Céline book. Is the danger that you're soft-headed enough to be swayed from your principles simply by exposing yourself to a perspective that doesn't share them? Or is the danger that you might have some level of empathy for a human being even though they think the wrong thing?
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Feb 20, 2021 04:57
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ThePopeOfFun posted:I get this is the comedy forum and I have laughed a lot at these posts, but I truly am interested in ways one can handle ideas. Or ways to think about what to do with Mishima's nationalism. Is it dangerous on any level? Or what is going on when you're reading a book that isn't keeping company with an author. What is it? i wrote up like five paragraphs with subclauses but they all sucked poo poo so i would say instead perhaps 1) read pierre menard, the author of quixote 2) consider how you are moved or diverted by other esthetic pursuits like music or painting or fine dining, and how the politics of the creators or creation of works in those other areas does or does not impact your experience, collection, or curation 3) consider how phronesis is attained, and the extent to which "exposure" contributes to or subtracts from it.
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Feb 20, 2021 05:32
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Thanks for the replies! I wish you would have posted all of your paragraphs. Feel free to PM me. I don't think ideas are dangerous from books or that one is hanging out with an author by any means, but seemed like what we were reacting to in a few posts. I'm pretty obsessed with encountering otherness in books I read; ideas that I haven't thought of and can't relate to at all. It really seems a miracle someone can put some sentences down and have any of that work at all.
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Feb 20, 2021 05:39
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ThePopeOfFun posted:I get this is the comedy forum and I have laughed a lot at these posts, but I truly am interested in ways one can handle ideas. Or ways to think about what to do with Mishima's nationalism. Is it dangerous on any level? Or what is going on when you're reading a book that isn't keeping company with an author. What is it? if your convictions are so weak that reading someone with problematic politics turns you from a soft hearted liberal into a hardcore ethnonationalist you should retire to a farm somewhere and never engage with the outside world ever again
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Feb 20, 2021 05:40
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I guess you can argue that art is determined by political economy, and that hegemonic art has no role in forming mass consciousness, because mass consciousness is formed by the materiality of class relations . Regardless, you can read what ever you want, and I don't think the people in here are being (consciously) swayed by reading whatever books they want. The current state of art is directed by the market that treats everyone as individual consumers. But we don't have to think like that. Also I never said don't read mishima. If you like it, go for it. The last novel I read was Tarr by Wyndham Lewis, who also tended towards fascism. I just think it's weird to read a fascist and not be bothered by it because your politics are secure, but then to be offended when someone makes a remark about reading a fascist. If your politics are secure you should be okay with people criticizing the stuff you read for having bad politics, just like you're okay reading the stuff with bad politics.
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Feb 20, 2021 06:02
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Ras Het posted:Reading engages our remnants of the bicameral mind and we hallucinize an "author" who doesn't exist. also pentti linkola rules Uh oh, somebody wants me to post about Jaynes. I said that I wouldn't.
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Feb 20, 2021 06:15
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Duck Rodgers posted:I just think it's weird to read a fascist and not be bothered by it because your politics are secure, but then to be offended when someone makes a remark about reading a fascist. If your politics are secure you should be okay with people criticizing the stuff you read for having bad politics, just like you're okay reading the stuff with bad politics. Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Feb 20, 2021 |
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Feb 20, 2021 06:17
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My point was about individual decisions vs public politics. If you as an individual want to read and talk about Ezra Pound, discuss it on the SA forums or whatever that's fine. But political movements should absolutely attack and disavow artists with an opposing world view. What I am saying is more relevant to contemporary artists than long dead ones, and the initial statements were related to the long dead kind of artists so my bad on jumping in on that. But contemporary capitalism treats us all as individual consumers and conditions us to act as such. We can interact with art as individual consumers. Do I like this art? But we can also reject that framing and consider our interactions with art as part of a collective community. Obviously (to me at least) it is better from a collective sense if all successful artists were communist's, and all fascist artists were punched. The tweet thing was a silly pithy statement that I shouldn't have included because it clearly confused things. Read fascists, sexists, racists etc. if you find the books they write to be interesting and aesthetically pleasing. But if those fascists, sexists, racists are the most popular artists of the time, and anti-fascists, anti-racists etc are condemning them and attacking them, then shut the gently caress up about their artistic merits there's more important things going on. Yes I know this doesn't apply to mishima and wyndham lewis and ezra pound who are all dead. Sorry for going off the rails. Related, I really like William Faulkner and Go Down Moses. It is a great book, and for being written by a southern white man in the 1930s/40s it is fairly progressive on race. But it absolutely has racist tropes and views (which Faulkner himself expressed in interviews). I can enjoy the book while understanding that the authors worldview doesn't align with mine.
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Feb 20, 2021 06:56
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Oh look here we are back at death of the author
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Feb 20, 2021 07:04
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mdemone posted:Oh look here we are back at death of the author I didn't read any of the longer posts - are goons still thinkin it means something it doesn't mean?
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Feb 20, 2021 07:05
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I like books. I just finished Home by Marilynne Robinson. Bit of a slow start but incredibly compelling (and heartbreaking) in the end.
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Feb 20, 2021 07:07
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3D Megadoodoo posted:I didn't read any of the longer posts - are goons still thinkin it means something it doesn't mean? Nah they pretty much all came back to it
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Feb 20, 2021 07:10
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Engaging with opposing viewpoints is extremely useful both in solidifying and expanding upon your own, and understanding the how and why other people have come to the viewpoints they hold.
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Feb 20, 2021 07:10
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Sham bam bamina! posted:"keeping company" I would certainly recommend Confessions of a Mask to anyone; it was one of the best books I read that year. I don't choose which books I read because of the viewpoints or political attitudes of their authors. I was just surprised that 1) other people had heard of him at all and 2) he had such a crazy personal history and eventual death. About Faulkner, I've never read him but I have read the short stories of Flannery O'Connor. Boy, was that a fun and appropriate choice I brought to read on break from working the polls alongside Fox-brained racists.
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Feb 20, 2021 07:12
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snailshell posted:I would certainly recommend Confessions of a Mask to anyone; it was one of the best books I read that year. I don't choose which books I read because of the viewpoints or political attitudes of their authors. I was just surprised that 1) other people had heard of him at all and 2) he had such a crazy personal history and eventual death.  I had no idea, I quite enjoyed that book but know anything about the author, and I didn't really think much further about it. That's...well, poo poo.
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Feb 20, 2021 07:22
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What do people looking for ideological purity do with somebody like Malaparte who was a member of National Fascist Party and Italian Communist party at different points of his life? (also leaving atheism behind to become Catholic) Also, I was born in Soviet Union and having only communist-approved books widely available certainly didn't stop people from developing racist and ethnonationalist views, so I doubt books have as much influence as we'd like to imagine. Burning Rain fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Feb 20, 2021 |
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Feb 20, 2021 07:37
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As a friend of mine once said, first understand. Then criticize. Ya gotta read the work to understand the dork (I mean yeah I know but just make it rhyme in your own head)
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Feb 20, 2021 07:45
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Ya gotta read the words to understand the nerds
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Feb 20, 2021 07:49
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i dont really get this kind of thing. like what are you afraid is going to happen if you read mishima's books? that it will make you become a fascist somehow? if you're a reader you shouldn't be so easily affected it's like when people are afraid of "fake news" or phone scams. yeah it might be dangerous in the statistical sense that it will dupe gullible idiots and normies but if you have half a brain it won't actually matter to you personally because it should be obvious to you. i'd read hitler if he wrote well
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Feb 20, 2021 08:16
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