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Unlimited Blade Works is the second part of a story. Fate Zero is the FIFTH part of that story. Fourth if you don't count Hollow Ataraxia. If you want to know why you aren't being instantly gratified, there's your answer.
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Dec 7, 2014 18:01
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 18:17 |
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bunch a new posts in the UBW thread, let's s-
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Dec 7, 2014 18:05
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Is this the equivalent of "oh, sure, the first 3 season of Babylon 5 are garbage, but you gotta watch them to appreciate the genius of the 4th!" ? How many days of delay are we talking?
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Dec 7, 2014 18:05
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Squidster posted:Is this the equivalent of "oh, sure, the first 3 season of Babylon 5 are garbage, but you gotta watch them to appreciate the genius of the 4th!" ? How many days of delay are we talking? No, because FSN is better than FZ.
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Dec 7, 2014 18:07
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UBW has more Taiga-sensei than FZ, and is therefore the superior series.
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Dec 7, 2014 18:11
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Squidster posted:Is this the equivalent of "oh, sure, the first 3 season of Babylon 5 are garbage, but you gotta watch them to appreciate the genius of the 4th!" ? How many days of delay are we talking? Sir, you insult me honour, I challenge you to a duel! Everyone knows season two was where it started getting good because that's when Sheridan shows up and Londo finally settles into his characterization. But seriously though, the story that FSN is trying to tell works the way it is; each route is a complete story in of itself. Details are "missing" sure but the same is true of any story really, lets look at Game of Thrones, doesn't The Mountain have his own backstory? But we don't see that because that's not what the story itself is focused on. But if ASOIAF was similar to FSN, then there would be a story that did and we'd get a more 'true' and 'fuller' narrative, but the story without that piece is still functionally and narratively 'complete'. There's pro's and con's to this approach but I'd argue the 'normal' approach to story telling is just the inverse.
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Dec 7, 2014 18:12
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Like, the complaint about Blood Fort not leading anywhere for example: that's a twist of UBW compared to Fate, where it was a huge deal. In Fate, Rider is a relatively major antagonist and Caster barely exists, in UBW Rider chumps out. The only reason you think it didn't lead anywhere is because you don't know Fate (or, for that matter, Heaven's Feel and UBW).
Rody One Half fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 18:13
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Squidster posted:Is this the equivalent of "oh, sure, the first 3 season of Babylon 5 are garbage, but you gotta watch them to appreciate the genius of the 4th!" ? How many days of delay are we talking? You should just drop the show, it's pretty clear you don't enjoy it and I don't see much point in sticking with a show where everything annoys you so much.
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Dec 7, 2014 18:14
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Rodyle posted:No, because FSN is better than FZ. I used to play a lot of dumb tabletop games, and one of the frequent things you'll hear from rpg gamers, right after "pass the dewritos" is "someone should write a book about this story! It's so epic!" But most of these stories are in fact loving awful. Because the players feel a connection to the characters and plot, they see only the shared fun the had, and don't see how badly it functions as a narrative. Because it wasn't Krogdar that slew that goblin and bullied a discount out of the fat innkeeper, it was partly me. What I'm saying is, Fate Stay Night feels like a meandering D&D story about a bunch of random stuff that happened, without regard to pacing or character. Rin's player got bored, felt like loving around and tried to kill Shirou, then the DM railroaded them to make nice and go along with their plot. Then stuff at school got boring, the DM threw a random skeleton encounter at them and weakly tried to bring in the overall plot. AVeryLargeRadish posted:You should just drop the show, it's pretty clear you don't enjoy it and I don't see much point in sticking with a show where everything annoys you so much. Raenir Salazar posted:Everyone knows season two was where it started getting good because that's when Sheridan shows up and Londo finally settles into his characterization. Rodyle posted:Like, the complaint about Blood Fort not leading anywhere for example: that's a twist of UBW compared to Fate, where it was a huge deal. In Fate, Rider is a relatively major antagonist and Caster barely exists, in UBW Rider chumps out. The only reason you think it didn't lead anywhere is because you don't know Fate (or, for that matter, Heaven's Feel and UBW).  .
Squidster fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 18:19
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Fate Zero definitely translated better to an anime than UBW has so far. If the pacing bothers you, maybe drop the show and pick it up when you can marathon through the dry parts and get to the good stuff near the back half of the story, because the front half definitely drags a bit.
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Dec 7, 2014 18:21
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Rodyle posted:Unlimited Blade Works is the second part of a story. Fate Zero is the FIFTH part of that story. Fourth if you don't count Hollow Ataraxia. If you want to know why you aren't being instantly gratified, there's your answer. Raenir Salazar posted:But seriously though, the story that FSN is trying to tell works the way it is; each route is a complete story in of itself. Details are "missing" sure but the same is true of any story really, lets look at Game of Thrones, doesn't The Mountain have his own backstory? But we don't see that because that's not what the story itself is focused on. Rodyle posted:Like, the complaint about Blood Fort not leading anywhere for example: that's a twist of UBW compared to Fate, where it was a huge deal. In Fate, Rider is a relatively major antagonist and Caster barely exists, in UBW Rider chumps out. The only reason you think it didn't lead anywhere is because you don't know Fate (or, for that matter, Heaven's Feel and UBW).
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Dec 7, 2014 18:27
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Squidster posted:Stay Night Saber is boring and bland as the day is long. Squidster posted:Is this the equivalent of "oh, sure, the first 3 season of Babylon 5 are garbage, but you gotta watch them to appreciate the genius of the 4th!" ? How many days of delay are we talking? Mercrom posted:So you're saying the adaptation isn't good if you haven't read the source material first. I would like to say that what we're currently going through is where I started to really like UBW, because Shirou takes a much more proactive approach to figuring stuff out and relies much more on himself rather than Saber (which is, again, good because Saber is yawn-inducing) and him bouncing off of the other characters are actually funny this time around.
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Dec 7, 2014 18:39
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Nate RFB posted:Saber was boring in Zero too. That's her thing, she's the absolute life of the party and yet since the Japanese fanbase loves her to bits her inclusion is justified. It is a good thing that she's inconsequential this time around. Nate RFB posted:No, it just means that when some things happen that seem like a big deal (or the opposite) it's usually because of an intended placement in the narrative. For better or worse we're starting in the middle. Fate players know all about Blood Fort and the danger it represented, as well as how it is to be handled once activated. But, surprise! Things didn't go as planned there, drat what could this mean? How will things develop differently now that Rider's made an early exit? It's not about good or bad, but rather about building up expectations and twisting them to play out to different outcomes, which is something you can't achieve with a one and done story like we're getting. Add in a few brief scenes of Shinji ominously planting the seals so it's clear that he and Rider are placing them, and that Caster's plan is, while nearly identical, separate. Have Shinji drop a hint to Shirou in his partnership offer that "oh well, it won't matter in a few days anyway." Have Rin and Shirou show real bomb-defusing tension as they go on a frantic hunt for seals, as opposed to it being portrayed as an afterschool easter egg hunt. When Shirou goes to pull the trigger early, have him discover in horror that Caster has pulled it for him. Rider gets owned easily because Caster has hijacked her seals, and is eating her mana sources. During the battle, Caster melts a bunch of students for their mana, because you can't show a bomb without it having consequences. I think that covers the same notes, but would present in a more satisfying way. When you set up an audience's expectations, yes, you should twist the delivery so it's not what they expect, but you should also exceed their expectations. Don't go "nuh uh no climax for you!", go "yes, and" Nate RFB posted:You know what, sure, let's go with this. Yes it would have probably been better to get all three routes but that would cost just too much time and effort, so this is the compromise. I guess it was too much to ask of new fans, which is unfortunate.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:03
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Squidster posted:We also saw characters maneuvering to set up future reveals 
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Dec 7, 2014 19:09
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It's how TM works - stuff takes time to pull you in but the payoff is worth it. What with me patently suffering through F/Z (thought it was mediocre on its own, btw) and going against the 'hey, this is blatant wish fulfillment stuff for kids!' Fate route first impressions to fall in love with it by the end of second half of Fate but not before. So yeah, marathoning TM stuff until it 'clicks' (or not - tastes are different) is probably a good idea.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:16
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Squidster posted:This show just seems to drag. I don't feel like poo poo's going to get real at any second. The mild tension invested in Rider's school mana-sucking plan sagged out in a wet fart, and it's a frustrating waste of foreshadowing. Maybe interesting things will come out of it later, but dammit, I want interesting things now. The whole Rider-Bloodfort business is supposed to be this anti-climactic to emphasis more on Caster. In fate we get the more of Rider but she just come and goes, not even Shinji do anything afterwards, while here we'll definitely see more of Shinji. Squidster posted:Do you know what's going to happen next? The protagonists are going to continue going to school to grind math levels and social links until author fiat decides to spring an attack on them. We're just stuck waiting until something happens. I find this comment funny because the very next episode poo poo is going to get real. Squidster posted:Additionally, all of Shirou's challenges are physical. His beliefs and nature have not been questioned, and he still hasn't really revealed a motivation more interesting than any other dimestore shonen hero. Caster and Rider seem like identical minibosses. Rin feels too inconsistent to even be psychotic. Stay Night Saber is boring and bland as the day is long. Actually the anime did a much better job telling how Shirou isn't just a shounen hero, but a messed up kid with a messed up childhood. Rin's thing is being inconsistent, and Saber was always just the "bro". Squidster posted:People say the plot gets better, things heat up... but it's been 4+ hours man. There's been a lot of of show with not much to show for it. This path is pretty on and off, we get some big scenes inbetween some talky scenes. Bholder fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 19:21
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UBW is good but the people defending ar enot doing a very good job. UBW is slower-paced than F/Z. That's not a bad thing, and it works pretty well for the story it wants to tell. UBW is also more focused in it's character focus: FZ introduced us straight-away to all the Masters and Servants and showed us their pespective. Instead, UBW focuses on Shirou and Rin and keeps the other characters mysterious. Right now, we have no idea who are Caster and Lancer's Masters, nor do we know the identity of Archer and Caster (and Saber if you didn't watch FZ). UBW isn't FZ, and wanting it to be is stupid and will make you hate the show for no good reasons.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:22
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Squidster posted:Audiences would never, ever, ever watch three copies of the same show. There is literally no way to market and sell that. It wouldn't be three copies of the same show, because the branching points are early in the story and events diverge hugely afterwards. I mean the game would've been pretty boring if it was just the same events repeating three times with only minor variations. Unfortunately we'll never get a good anime of the first route because one was already made, and it was a horrible clusterfuck that tried to mash events from all three routes into one story just so every character would get the same amount of screentime.  So I guess blame Studio DEEN for us not having something we can point to and say "watch this first"
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Dec 7, 2014 19:23
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Kubla Khan posted:It's how TM works - stuff takes time to pull you in but the payoff is worth it. What with me patently suffering through F/Z (thought it was mediocre on its own, btw) and going against the 'hey, this is blatant wish fulfillment stuff for kids!' Fate route first impressions to fall in love with it by the end of second half of Fate but not before. Agreed. You tend to see this in every Type-Moon work in some way, shape or form: - Fate/stay night had that three day prologue that took an hour to read through. - Fate/zero took an entire season to get to the meat of the conflict. - Kara no Kyoukai did this with every movie in the beginning. - Tsukihime was this. - All the sequels with the exception of Melty Blood was this. - Decoration Disorder Disconnection had a lot of this.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:26
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Squidster posted:Audiences would never, ever, ever watch three copies of the same show. There is literally no way to market and sell that. Higurashi no Naku Koro ni? There's probably other shows that have worked with groundhogs day loops/alternate branches as their central premise, but Higurashi is the only one that comes to mind at the moment.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:28
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Suaimhneas posted:It wouldn't be three copies of the same show, because the branching points are early in the story and events diverge hugely afterwards. I mean the game would've been pretty boring if it was just the same events repeating three times with only minor variations. "I want... disc 3 of series 4. No, the deluxe edition." Unless every version had an entirely different animation style, or some sort of instantly visible hook, they would blend together into an unfathomable quicksand porridge.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:29
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MonsieurChoc posted:UBW isn't FZ, and wanting it to be is stupid and will make you hate the show for no good reasons. Pretty much this. You're setting yourself up for disappointment with that mindset. (Although by all means, like F/Z more, it has Iskander after all) The failing of UBW is that it is UBW aka a set story with specific events where certain things are going to be cut out in favor of other plot points. F/Z is a whole story and the foundation of how things ended up the way they did to begin with.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:29
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Allarion posted:Higurashi no Naku Koro ni? There's probably other shows that have worked with groundhogs day loops/alternate branches as their central premise, but Higurashi is the only one that comes to mind at the moment. Umineko also. Considering that it has a more connected story than Higurashi, I think it would work better. Now if only someone other than Deen could make it...
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Dec 7, 2014 19:35
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Squidster posted:So hypothetically I go to the store to buy some discs of my favorite show ever, and I see three box-sets starring the same characters doing very similar looking things. Which one do I buy without doing exhaustive research? What the gently caress even is this comparison?
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Dec 7, 2014 19:38
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Squidster posted:So hypothetically I go to the store to buy some discs of my favorite show ever, and I see three box-sets starring the same characters doing very similar looking things. Which one do I buy without doing exhaustive research? E: Also I like that huge rewrite you did up there you don't know anything about, while speaking to people who have read the whole thing + the attendant spin-off's.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:39
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Beef Waifu posted:What the gently caress even is this comparison? Rodyle posted:E: Also I like that huge rewrite you did up there you don't know anything about, while speaking to people who have read the whole thing + the attendant spin-off's. Squidster fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 19:42
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No it's loving not because Otaku will buy the overpriced series that result from this and they will know what the differences are because they're not dumb enough to buy the wrong series of a show they enjoy. They are the market for these, not some American consumer that this show is never going to be aired to.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:45
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Squidster posted:That selling three different copies of the same show with different branching points is a nearly impossible task. If audiences cannot distinguish between your products, they will not buy it.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:45
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That's why trying to defend UBW using the VN is terrible. UBW is perfectly fine it's on its own, don't bring in other stuff!
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Dec 7, 2014 19:46
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Problem: the first half of UBW is boring Solution: watch an entire boring route beforehand
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Dec 7, 2014 19:46
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It's not boring! Stuff happens! Secrets are gradually revealed! You get to know the characters before they are murdered (Rider excepted)! Plans are being made, mysteries ar ebeing investigated, none of this is complicated! I mean seriously, you guys are being terribly frustrating.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:48
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The only reason Fate is considered boring is because so many people saw the anime before playing the game, and the anime is a (bad) adaptation it. So people had to sit through roughly the same events in order to get to unlimited blade works and heavens feel, which are both better than Fate. There's nothing wrong with it by itself.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:52
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Maybe Fate is a love it or hate it sort of thing and if you hate it you should just, I dunno, stop watching or something? I know, I know, crazy idea! I mean, stop watching something the only provides you with frustration and material to bitch about on the internet? That's just nuts! But you know, I generally stop watching things when they just make me annoyed and I think I might even be happier for spending my time doing things I like instead of things I hate! Weird huh?
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Dec 7, 2014 19:57
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For the people who are defending this show, don't forget the thing about bad pacing is not incorrect. This is a great adaptation if only for the fact they managed to add stuff for people who are familiar with the series that make it less slow paced, but it still is slow paced. I love UBW, but to say that the route doesn't have its problems like that are denying things. I like a lot of the early action stuff and relationship building with Shiro and Rin, but I'm a big dumb softy to stuff like that and not everyone can enjoy two teenagers being dumb and goofy. Not a lot of people can also enjoy just good action scenes either, apparently. Whatever. I don't mind new people not liking the show, I'd honestly say to stop telling them the show gets better because if they want to drop it they should just drop it. Stop writing your badly worded diatribes in response to how you feel about things, drop it. You're clearly not interested in getting invested in anything, you're clearly not willing to play ball with the show, just shut up and stop watching. There have been too many bad posts on both sides that aren't representing themselves well. If I can make one more response though... Squidster posted:Thanks! If a thing is bad, it should be made better! Much like your posting.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:59
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I like the UBW adaption of the Prologue loads more than the VN (though its flawed by missing the Ayako interactions iirc) but the Fate route in the VN is definitely more interesting than the anime adaption and is fine to get through chapter by chapter.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:59
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Maybe Fate is a love it or hate it sort of thing and if you hate it you should just, I dunno, stop watching or something? I know, I know, crazy idea! I mean, stop watching something the only provides you with frustration and material to bitch about on the internet? That's just nuts! But you know, I generally stop watching things when they just make me annoyed and I think I might even be happier for spending my time doing things I like instead of things I hate! Weird huh?
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Dec 7, 2014 20:00
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My problem is that slow paced doesn't mean bad, it just means slow paced! It's a different kind of story-telling, and one that works well with the story UBW is trying to tell. So everyone saying that it's abd because it's slow frustrates the poo poo out of me. And everyone saying it's better if you've read the VN also frustrate me because it's a terrible argument.
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Dec 7, 2014 20:02
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Oh yeah, anyone saying to read the VN is loving crazy, I read that poo poo when I was 16 and when I entertained the idea of doing again, I got past the prologue and saw my afternoon had flown by and was like "NOPE NOT AGAIN."
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Dec 7, 2014 20:04
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Beef Waifu posted:Oh yeah, anyone saying to read the VN is loving crazy, I read that poo poo when I was 16 and when I entertained the idea of doing again, I got past the prologue and saw my afternoon had flown by and was like "NOPE NOT AGAIN."
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Dec 7, 2014 20:06
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MonsieurChoc posted:And everyone saying it's better if you've read the VN also frustrate me because it's a terrible argument. That's not even an argument in its defence anyway, because it just means it's a bad adaptation for people who are new to the series. Which is a shame. That's basically why I was saying "man I wish there was a good Fate anime that people could watch before this one"
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Dec 7, 2014 20:12
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