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nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

I still can't believe the Wasteful Lives of High School Girls author literally named her twin girl characters Hisui and Kohaku

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nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

I just saw something odd in the intro of FSN. Here's Rin's recital when she's summoning a heroic spirit:

quote:

Make an oath here.
I am the one who shall become the virtue of all afterworld.
I am the one who shall lay out the evil of all afterworld.
Thou art Seven Heavens clad in the Three Great Words.
Emerge from the ring of control, guardian of balanceÖ!

Is it just me, or is there something weird about the last line? What do heroic spirits have to do with being a guardian of balance? (UBW) Isn't this the sort of spell that would get you a Counter Guardian rather than a regular hero?

I guess it's always pretty clear Rin's summoning was overdetermined--- there are lots of reasons she gets the exact Servant she does--- but I hadn't noticed this before.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Blaze Dragon posted:

I think that's just a translation thing since it's extremely different from every version I've seen. This is the version I most remember, though it may be simply because it's the one I tend to go to:


Both versions have literally nothing in common so unless I'm missing something big here, one of these translations is not a translation at all but a complete rewrite.

Ugh, this is too easy to believe, there are a lot of fanciful translations of lines from FSN lying around.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

The funniest thing about the duel between Shirou and the red guy is how profoundly unadaptable it is. You can't really blame Ufotable for that one, the whole drat thing is just interior monologues while two guys straightforwardly swing swords at each other. It's great in the VN, but some things just work better on the page than they do animated.

The Rin scene that happens simultaneously makes me agree with the thread title though

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Yeah you might be right. You could definitely make a fight like Shirou vs Archer compelling in a live-action film so there's probably a way to make it decent in an anime too. The show definitely could stand to be shorter. It didn't help that they wanted to make a sequel to Zero too (I assume) so you wound up with an Ilya episode even though she doesn't matter at all.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

the real question is, once the heavens feel movies are all done, are we going to get a far side tsukihime film

it can come out simultaneously to help promote the remake

this will definitely happen

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Rody One Half posted:

I really like the last stardust scene in the Archer fight. The Archer fight is too long.

The Gil fight they did more or less perfectly imo.

My only complaint with the Gil fight is that they should have synched up the action when Shirou is reciting the spell with the music better

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

me, describing this discussion: "don't go in. it's hell in there"

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

I think F/SN is just awkward because UBW is commentary on Fate, and HF is commentary on UBW. Like the whole reason Shinji and Sakura are handled so weirdly in the second route is to make the third route, where Shirou actually fights to save Sakura from her horrible position, more affecting, right? And similarly Fate doesnít really interrogate how bonkers Shirouís dream is because thatís what UBW is about. I donít think every VN is like that, although tbh my experience with them isnít that broad. But for example, you can adapt Arcueidís route like the Tsukihime manga does without the story looking incomplete.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Next AU show should be a detective story where Shirou and Kirei solve magic crimes

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Itís an easy mistake to make to think that ďdark SakuraĒ is effectively a different personality than the real Sakura. Several characters make that mistake, IIRC, within the story itself. They just happen to be wrong.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Endorph posted:

Shinji's clearly kind of a confused character writing wise. He's meant to be Saionji from Utena., which matches pretty 1:1, but the issue is with Saionji the worst he ever does is smack Anthy and be a petty, jealous rear end in a top hat. Which is bad but it's not sexual assault or trying to murder a bunch of people. Shinji simultaneously has to fulfill the roles of Shirou's pitiable friend who let his worst impulses get the better of him because he grew up in an awful environment and also total shithead piling even more awful stuff onto Sakura, and also he has to kickstart a couple of kind of gratuitous sexual assault scenes. I can get the one in HF, but the one with Rin in UBW is totally needless. It almost feels like Sakura originally had two brothers and they got combined into one character, or something.

This sounds about right. In the story of UBW you're clearly meant to feel bad for Shinji even though he spends the whole plot doing bad things; he's out of his depth, and in a weird way kind of innocent. But after HF it's impossible to forgive Shinji or not want bad things to happen to him, and even earlier it's really unclear why Shirou is friends with him. This is sort of what I meant when I said HF is commentary on UBW; the climax of UBW winds up being Rin tops off a life of doing nothing to help Sakura by heroically saving her sister's abuser. So when somebody is reading HF, they're going to be thinking "wow, this outcome is much better than the UBW one".

Nasu also uses the threat of women being sexually assaulted too much in his stories I think. It's the main flaw I have to overlook to enjoy them. It's one thing when he writes characters who have a past of sexual abuse, which means the story is kind of about that to a certain extent. But I think stuff like the scene with Rin and Shinji, the Saber wedding dress, or Gilgamesh's fairly explicit rape threats in Fate are just gratuitous and exploitative.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

That's actually really relieving to hear, thanks.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

The real question is which ending they're gonna adapt

Not that there's really any question, they don't have the guts to do it :colbert:

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Itís been awhile, but iirc in UBW Rin asks some really suspicious questions to Shirou about what itís like to be adopted. I donít remember picking up on them at the time but I think a motivated reader could have put two and two together.

And yeah adapting the normal end of HF would not actually be a good idea.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Did anybody else think Rin was fuckin dead at the end of fate the first time they played it, or am I the only one that dumb?

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

yeah I know but like rin says a lot of things. and most of them are wrong

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

lol at that list having two main categories, "visual novels" and "Trails games"

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

What Fate really needs is some sort of story to fill in the gaps between the two Holy Grail wars of Zero and FSN. Specifically, a comedy about Kirei blundering away the Tohsaka inheritance, teaching ten year old Rin Chinese martial arts for some reason, practicing cooking together, and other such nonsense.

Itís actually surprising how much Rin seems to have been influenced by Kirei, given that thereís no love lost between them. I guess she was probably more impressionable when she was younger.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

I'm surprised Nasu has never gone back to the well of alternate FSN routes. I guess it's a bit of a barren field just because he already put the best ideas in the game, but I think there's lots of stuff you could do with the setup. A Shirou route with Rin as the protagonist could be really compelling I think although you'd need to make sure it wasn't just UBW again; Rin has a fun enough voice to carry a game. A route where Caster is an ally is also a good idea. Comedy option is a Burn After Reading route where Shirou is killed by Berserker and everything just goes to poo poo immediately

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

The best animated Fate media is actually the VN's nonsense bonus videos

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Wish Fate ripped off A Once and Future King, I want to see Saber turn into an goose for the exciting crossover sequel to Untitled Goose Game

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Er, Iím pretty sure Hercules is a god?

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

I donít know why I remember this clearly, but Gilgameshís divinity isnít important because he doesnít respect the gods himself. I think this only comes up on his stat board and not in the actual story, which makes sense because no one involved really cares.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

LORD OF BOOTY posted:

Yeah like, when people talk about Nasu making their head hurt, the moon is a really really good example of why

While the core of any given story makes sense and is perfectly sane, there's a lot of things in the periphery of the Nasuverse that are just absolute bugfuck crazy nonsense

My favorite example of this is "Conceptual Weapons," a special class of weapon with an unclear definition which, as far as I know, has only come up because Ciel was confused about Tohno Shiki's knife.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Hmm, can I read the spoilers if I watched KnK 10 years ago and don't remember any of it except that Ryougi Shiki is cool

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Iím pretty sure Fate was destined for that image as soon as the first entry in the series, a dating sim with explicit sex scenes, was published.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

I think you could make a good live-action film from Hisuiís route.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Iím not going to lie: I didnít think it really had a chance, but Iím still (hf end) a little disappointed they didnít go with the normal ending.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

OnimaruXLR posted:

I got to poking around about Tsukihime's story (in lieu of reading it, because who has that kind of time) and is Kohaku's route as horrible as the broad plot summary details make it sound?

I know that hosed up sex poo poo is the fashion of genre fiction eroge, but dang

The Worst Writing and Most Heinous Misogyny

Tsukihime is what it is, and what it is is a visual novel that includes goofy sex tropes. It also deals with serious, dark themes, including sexual violence, and the juxtaposition is sometimes awkward. I liked Kohakuís route and think itís good but your mileage may vary.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

I always figured The Once and Future King was canonical to Fate.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Dr Pepper posted:

I'm pretty sure it's mostly using Le Morte d'Arthur as its base.

this is definitely and obviously true but I just like the idea of arturia turning into an ant to learn important lessons about authoritarianism ok

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Thereís a detailed explanation, of course, but I donít think as a reader youíre really supposed to understand how exactly (HF) Shirou survives. Itís a miracle: an unparalleled work of magic made possible by Illyaís nature and her expertise. The doll thing is a cute reference, but I think itís supposed to come out of nowhere: narratively itís what Illya does thatís important.

Actually, that raises another question for me. The power of the Holy Grail is fundamentally corrupt, right? When it ďgrants wishesĒ or ďoffers powerĒ, it do so in a malevolent, destructive way. It is impossible to use it for good: Thatís the conclusion Kiritsugu comes to, and I donít think we have any reason to doubt heís correct. But at the end of HF, Ilya uses the power of the Grail to save Shirou, an act of benevolence driven by deep familial love. So whatís the deal? I always figured Illya was making use of the ambient power in the big Grail to perform sorceryó is that not the case, and she could have done it anywhere if she needed to?

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

In fairness, it's a tall order to make eyes dramatic enough to support her scenes. It wouldn't be enough on its own to let Rider look down on the other Servants. A Noble Phantasm has to be something that lets the one who has it tower over others, at least when it's at its peak. It's a high bar.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

AlternateNu posted:

Isn't that basically what Blood Fort is? It's just her mystic eyes in the form of a bounded field. It's just she's usually nerf'd by having Shinji as a proxy master, so it's basically never seen at full power.

What Iím trying to get at here is that Rider is very tall.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

there are a lot of lines in fate featuring people being callous jerks at the worst times, but archer's trojan horse joke still sticks in my mind

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Thereís no reason Caster and her master couldnít have just skipped out on the whole Grail War and gone abroad while the thing was still running, right? That was always my assumption, and I like it thematically: had Medea been able to really be honest with Kuzuki about what she wanted, and if he had clearly communicated his desires in return, they could have survived the war. But instead she risks everything fighting for a prize she doesnít need and Kuzuki doesnít care about. In the end, they both die senselessly.

Fate/stay night raises the idea that Medea and Kuzuki are somehow mismatched in personality, which makes sense with this reading of events.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

I just watched The Green Knight. Good movie!

Is the story of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight ever referenced in any of the Fate deuterocanon? I donít think Saber ever mentions it in FSN.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

they should put arihiko in melty blood

Also thanks for the info on Gawain, itís too bad. I feel like I could easily see the Green Knight fitting into Fate.

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nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

I wonder what Arthurian stuff Nasu has read.

When I first read FSN, I definitely got the impression that he had read The Once and Future King. The idea that the king is separate from and above their knights appears in both stories; certainly Fate shows Arthur having a deep love for their kingdom and their knights, and says that itís incredibly sad that the position of king meant that none of their knights ever really realized that. But maybe thatís all in Le Morte díArthur, the original work, which I havenít read.

I think heís read something, though.

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