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Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


What made Zorak change his mind about allowing this thread?

Also, you forgot Plus-Disk and Fate/Apocrypha. I'll probably write up summaries for them, along with Kagetsu Tohya, tomorrow. (Spoilers: Kagetsu Tohya is bad except for some of the side stories, Plus-Disk is entirely bad, Apocrypha is surprisingly good.)

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Oct 11, 2014

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Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Talvos posted:

Even that's not important since it's all a dream. The only take away are that Ren becomes Shiki's familiar and Kouma Kishima exists in Melty Blood due to memories referenced in this story. Other than that, there are short stories (which are not part of the main game) that tell us about : the Nanaya family, Nanako, and Arcueid's history with Roa. The rest of the contents are either unimportant filler stories or non-canon comedy bits. There's also a few references to Tsukihime 2, but I think it's safe to assume anything mentioned that long ago may no longer be true if the game ever gets realized.

Also, what's with the Tsukihime remake? Every time I resign myself to forget about it, they re-announce it. At this point, it better be the most amazing thing ever. :colbert:

I think the fandisk Budget Cop was referring to is Plus-Disk, which is not a dream sequence. Plus-Disk has a fourth-wall-breaking segment where the Tsukihime characters talk about Tsukihime and reveal a couple mildly interesting background details, but the only actual story in Plus-Disk, Alliance of Illusionary Eyes, is rather pointless, serving mainly to introduce Akira Seo, a character who plays a minor role in Kagetsu Tohya and has no particular reason to exist.

Talvos's summary of Kagetsu Tohya is basically correct except that A Story for the Evening is also an important side story, since it explains what happened after one of the more ambiguous Tsukihime endings. I should also note that Tohno Family Con Game, one of the non-canon comedy stories, is quite good and is the only post-Tsukihime story that gets Kohaku's original characterization right. The main storyline of Kagetsu Tohya involves Shiki being trapped in a looping dream world, a concept that's executed better in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia.

Also, be sure to choose the option to turn off sexual content when playing Tsukihime and especially Kagetsu Tohya, because that poo poo is pretty gross.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Oct 12, 2014

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


I just remembered that there's actually a bit more Tsukihime stuff that hasn't been mentioned: the short stories Tale, Talk, and Prelude. They're all decent, although Prelude, as the name implies, exists mainly to set up something that will probably never actually be written.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Fate/Apocrypha, a light novel series by Yuuichiro Higashide, is the story of the Fourth Holy Grail War in a timeline where the Third War went differently. It was originally planned as a game and features Servants designed by several different Type-Moon employees. The translation is being done one bit at a time on the Beast's Lair forums. Apocrypha has a lot of crazy-sounding ideas: the Apocrypha Fourth War involves 15 (!) Servants, one of whom is a moeblobby female Frankenstein's Monster, and one of the Masters is named Kotomine Shirou. It also has some awful character designs. The result is surprisingly OK, however; Higashide manages to turn some of the rather throwaway ideas from the Fate/Complete Material writeups of Servants from the cancelled game (Siegfried not speaking, everything involving Frankenstein) into coherent characterization.

Fate/Kaleid Liner Prisma Ilya is a manga and anime about an alternate universe where Ilya from Fate/Stay Night is a magical girl. It's not very good, although some of the fight scenes are worth watching clips of.

Witch on the Holy Night/Mahou Tsukai no Yoru is the main thing left untranslated. It delves into the backstory of Aoko and Touko Aozaki, who appear in Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai, respectively. Aoko, Shiki Tohno's mentor, is a user of True Magic, while Touko, her sister and enemy, is a magus who uses puppets.

That's about everything covered. There's also a couple short stories, databooks, etc. that I've omitted, and some I've forgotten, but probably nothing too important.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Oct 12, 2014

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Nyaa posted:

I decided to look up spoiler for Fate/CCC on Shinji where he's forced to work with the protagonist for once, which I believe is the implyed scenario of Shinji in the removed route. Even though this Shinji is 'different' from our Shinji, he acts exactly the same and written by Nasu, so I will guess it counts for the redemption argument. He redeemed in his own way.

Not really comparable, since Extra!Shinji is actually 8 years old.

I never found Shinji's characterization in F/SN that unbelievable. Maybe I'm just being too cynical about human nature? Shinji's motivations were explained pretty clearly in HF, at least. It also sort of explains his "redemption" in UBW. Maybe becoming the Grail (which was what Zouken planned for Sakura to do) made him realize that becoming the Matou heir was a horrible thing and he was an idiot to be jealous of Sakura for it...but probably not. More likely, the main thing keeping him in line post-UBW is fear. I honestly think Rin made a mistake saving his life in UBW, and she'll regret her decision when she finds out what he did to Sakura. (I understand why Rin did it, of course; she'd fully embraced Shirou's "save everyone" worldview.)

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


When I said positive things about Apocrypha's characterization earlier in this thread, I should have said everyone except Jack and Reika. Jack and Reika are terrible.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


korrandark posted:

I had some questions about the Holy Grail War. How are the heroic spirits chosen? I remember in Fate/Zero that you could choose what hero you wanted by having something that belonged to them, but what if you didn't have anyone in mind? How are the heroic spirits put into categories(like Saber or Lancer)? Is it random or is there someway to manipulate the system?

If you summon without a physical relic, you use yourself as a relic, summoning a Heroic Spirit with a personality similar to your own. Even if you use a physical relic, you summon the Heroic Spirit with the closest personality of all those associated with the relic. An example from Apocrypha: When Kairi used a fragment of the Round Table as his relic, he summoned Mordred, because Kairi isn't a moral or honorable person. However, if someone like Shirou used the same relic, he'd be more likely to get Arturia. On the other hand, if you use Avalon as a relic, you'll always get Arturia; that she has a similar personality to Shirou is coincidence/fate, I guess?

In practice, almost everyone seems to summon a Servant similar to themselves in important ways. The main exceptions that come to mind are Kayneth/Diarmuid, Medea/Kojiro, Gordes/Siegfried, and Selenik/Astolfo. I guess you could argue that Medea and Kojiro are similarly "empty," have pointless goals, are indifferent to the deaths of innocent people, etc., while Diarmuid counts as Sola-Ui's summon rather than Kayneth's.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Nate RFB posted:

There was a scene in Zero where Zouken made Kariya add some sort of incantation to his summoning to ensure that he got a Berserker. So they have some control over it, provided of course that the classes are available in the first place.

I think that only applies to the Berserker class.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if someone added that line after a Berserker had already been summoned. I guess they'd just summon a non-Berserker Servant?

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Bholder posted:

Play Battle Moon Wars to know how Shirou does after HF.

You do know that Battle Moon Wars is fanfiction, right?

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Myurton posted:

Gilgamesh (Fate route spoilers) was essentially eating people to stay in the world as was found out near the end of the Fate route.

Saber (UBW route spoilers) Yeah Rin just has a poo poo ton of mana or something apparently

Rider (Heavens Feel route spoilers) Sakura is a loving holy grail herself so of course she'd have a near inexhaustible mana supply to keep Rider around

Gil actually remained in the world because the Grail gave him a physical body. I think the prana battery was just for powering his Noble Phantasms.

Saber stuck around in UBW Good by getting mana from both Rin and Shirou.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Myurton posted:

They will probably remove and replace the h-scenes as well which is fine by me, though admittedly I could have it either way. Though I am wondering what they would put in their place, hopefully nothing really dumb. Also I hope he writes in more Zelretch.

edit:

It will also probably be available on Play Asia much like Fate/Stay Night is.

To express their love for each other, Arcueid and Shiki will perform a magical ritual, symbolically represented by Shiki being eaten by a giant cat. :v:

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Time for some mythological :spergin:!
The Heroic Spirits of the Fate franchise are mixes of actual history, myth, and legend with random stuff someone thought was cool, but it can be difficult to tell which is which. Many invented elements feel as though they should have been part of the legend, and sometimes the Nasuverse writers use a lesser-known variant of a legend.
Feel free to say if I’ve gotten something wrong, if there’s something I’ve left out, etc.
This is the first in a series of several planned posts about the Servants and their legends, since there’s so many Servants and so much to say about each.

Arturia Pendragon (Saber):
• Nasu’s interpretation of Excalibur is one of the things that strike most people as “anime bullshit,” but it may actually have some authentic legendary basis. According to Mallory’s Morte D’Arthur, Excalibur shone brightly on at least one occasion, and according to the 9th-century Welsh historian Nennius, Arthur’s “twelfth battle was on Badon Hill and in it nine hundred and sixty men fell in one day, from a single charge of Arthur's, and no-one lay them low save he alone.” This story is probably why Nasu lists Excalibur’s maximum number of targets as 1000 people. Alternatively, Nasu may have been inspired by the powers of the etymologically related sword Caladbolg (see Shirou Emiya (Archer)).
• Older versions of the legend treat the sword in the stone and Excalibur as the same weapon, but at least since Mallory, they became seen as separate to reconcile the story of the sword in the stone with the legend of the Lady of the Lake giving Arthur his sword. Note the similarity between the names “Excalibur” and “Caliburn.”
• Nasu has shortened the length of King Arthur’s reign, doubtless to keep Arturia young enough to make sense as a love interest for Shirou and Rin. (Even as it is, the relationship is pretty weird.) Hence Mordred’s accelerated aging. The Annales Cambriae (perhaps the strongest evidence for a historical King Arthur) places the Battle of Badon in 516 and the Battle of Camlann in 537.
• The title “King of Knights” is probably Urobuchi’s invention, but see these (probably coincidental) 19th-century sources: http://books.google.com/books?id=ud...ghts%22&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=yt...ghts%22&f=false
• Excalibur had a sheath that protected King Arthur from harm in some way in legend. While the sheath being called Avalon is new (as is the sheath's ability to prevent aging), Marion Zimmer Bradley's Mists of Avalon has the sheath's enchantment come from Avalon (the place).
• Since the legendary Arthur is, of course, not actually dead, but sleeps in Avalon, Saber is the only Heroic Spirit revealed so far to still be a living human.

Cu Chulainn (Lancer):
• In some versions, Gae Bolg has certain drawbacks not shown in Fate/Stay Night: it needs to be dipped in a stream beforehand and thrown with one’s toes, and after killing someone with Gae Bolg, one needs to carefully cut open the corpse to retrieve it (eww!).
• In legend, the Gae Bolg split into barbs to gruesomely pierce someone’s insides (most likely the inspiration for Lancer’s ranged version). It also had some sort of property of always being fatal when used in some versions, although the details are unclear to me. The attack on the target's internal organs (as opposed to simply the heart) is touched on in Hollow Ataraxia, but not in Stay Night.
• Cu Chulainn was known for often entering a berserk state called ríastrad, hence his eligibility for the Berserker class.

Shirou Emiya (Archer):
• The legend of Gan Jiang and Mo Ye (Kanshou and Bakuya) is found in the 4th-century Chinese book In Search of the Supernatural: http://books.google.com/books?id=JVmrAAAAIAAJ&q=sword#v=onepage&q=tomb%20of%20three%20kings&f=false
• The powers of the swords are not described, and some texts treat “Ganjiang Moye” as the name of one man rather than a husband-and-wife team. Apparently some versions treat Gan Jiang and Mo Ye as the names of the swords by not the blacksmiths, and other versions use these names for the smiths but not the swords.
• In the Iliad, the shield of Ajax was made of bronze covered by seven layers of cowhide. According to Fate/Side Material, this was also its original form in the Nasuverse; the exact origin of Archer’s version is vague.
• A red flower is sometimes said to have bloomed when Ajax died, although which species of flower the myth referred to is debatable. I believe that the flower shape of Archer’s version is probably a reference to the plant Consolida ajacis specifically.
• Caladbolg was the sword of either Fergus mac Roich or Fergus mac Leti. Surprisingly, the name “Caladbolg” is etymologically related to “Excalibur.”
• According to Wikipedia, Caladbolg “was said to be a two-handed sword that made a circle like an arc of rainbow when swung, and to have the power to slice the tops off hills and slaughter an entire host,” and both this use of the sword by Fergus and its possible connection to Excalibur are also mentioned in Fate/Complete Material II. It’s amusing to note that this is pretty much what all legendary swords do in the Nasuverse, although Archer never uses Caladbolg II for this purpose, and perhaps is unable to do so.

Medusa (Rider):
• Medusa is probably the Servant most altered from the conventional version of their legend. Some of this is an attempt to cram the legend full of Nasuverse concepts, and some of it relates to less well-known versions, but mostly it comes across as a fanservice thing.
• The mythological Medusa in Ovid's well-known version was originally human, but Nasuverse Medusa was originally a goddess (a type of goddess explicitly unrelated to the Olympians, no less). In both versions, she was turned into a monster by Athena, but Nasu does not mention that this was because Medusa had sex with Poseidon in Athena’s temple. The oldest versions of the Medusa myth make the Gorgons the daughters of sea gods, monstrous from the beginning.
• Nasu’s Medusa is, of course, pretty. Surprisingly, there are some references in art and poetry supporting this, although the Nasuverse Medusa is unique in having normal hair. Hollow Ataraxia reveals that Medusa actually does transform into the snake-haired monster recorded in myth under certain circumstances. However, the mythological Medusa, at least in Ovid's version, petrified people through her sheer ugliness, while Nasuverse Medusa uses her Mystic Eyes to petrify people even in her normal, attractive form.
• There seem to be two different mythical accounts of how Perseus killed Medusa. Did viewing Medusa through a mirror rather than directly protect him from petrification, or did getting her to view her own reflection cause her to petrify herself? The former version fits the origin of Pegasus better, at least. Nasu resolves this by giving Perseus two mirror-like weapons: a mirror-shield to look at Medusa indirectly and a magical sack called Kibisis that reflected her petrifying gaze back at her.
• Pegasus sprung from Medusa’s neck when she died. This is referenced when Rider stabs herself in the neck to summon Pegasus. Presumably her ability to ride him is granted by the Rider class rather than a skill she possessed in life.
• Bloodfort Andromeda is named for Andromeda, a woman Perseus saved from being eaten by a sea monster, who later became a constellation. The function of the Bloodfort has no particular connection to the mythological Medusa, although Hollow Ataraxia makes an attempt to connect it to the island where the Gorgons lived.

Medea (Caster):
• The idea that Medea had a dagger capable of breaking magical contracts has no basis in mythology that I was able to find, and Nasu says that he invented Rule Breaker as a weapon that fit Medea’s treacherous personality, but Jim Butcher’s Dresden Files series seems to have come up with the same idea independently.
• It was indeed Aphrodite's influence that made Medea fall in love with Jason, but it was Hera, not Aphrodite, who was Jason's patron.
• The Argon Coin references the dragon guarding the Golden Fleece. Medea can't actually summon the dragon because, in the myth, she wasn't the one who put the dragon there.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Jan 3, 2015

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Allarion posted:

No, I remember the story of Jason involving Aphrodite getting Eros to shoot Medea with his arrows. Looking it up confirms it with Hera and Athena convincing Aphrodite to help them out in supporting Jason.

Seems I was just egregiously wrong there. I should have checked that one; I was sure I remembered someone listing every version of the Medea legend and saying that Aphrodite wasn't mentioned in any of them.

Edit: I found where I'd got the idea, but I'd misremembered it. Aphrodite was mentioned in two different versions of the story. The point being made was that both of them could be read as "double determination" rather than "mind control."

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Oct 24, 2014

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Einander posted:

The form of Rho Aias has a pretty cool inspiration: it's said that when Ajax died, a hyacinth flower bloomed where his blood hit the ground. You can get up to seven or eight blooms on a wild hyacinth, so it fits with the whole multiple-layer thing too, and some varieties do come in that sort of red-purple color. (Although it's probably just blood color + glowing.)

There's some debate about whether the red flower referred to in the myths was the flower we call a hyacinth today, and Archer's Rho Aius looks a lot more like rocket larkspur (consolida ajacis) than hyacinth to me.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Even with a catalyst, if there's more than one possible Servant associated with the catalyst, you get the one who resembles your personality best.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


AfroSquirrel posted:

It certainly doesn't hurt that Rin has a habit of breaking reality on a regular basis while trying to pull of her own versions of Zelrecth's stuff.

Does this actually happen that often? In Heaven's Feel, she uses the Second Magic without any screw-ups. I vaguely remember her screwing up with the Second Magic once in Hollow Ataraxia. The idea that Rin is constantly messing up reality seems like fanon to me.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Stevefin posted:

I think its more implied she tends to get too ahead of herself, Such as summoning Archer and forgetting her clocks are wrong, giving him some amnesia and the best entrance ever, Saving Shirou and forgetting she should of kept a better eye on him to find lancer once he found out he lived, and that she indeed already had an artifact from the snake skin, but never put the two together, those are just within the three days of the start from her prospective, but are easily to pick up on cause it is from her prospective

Rin tends to do that in general, yes, but AfroSquirrel seemed to be talking about the Second Magic specifically.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


From the anime thread:

Irukandji Syndrome posted:

Significant spoilers for late-game portions of the VN routes!!!

I'm pretty surprised they're showing Gilgamesh talking to Kirei so freely. I haven't finished F/Z yet but I assume their relationship is established there? I know they're catering a lot to the crowd coming into this from F/Z without having played the VN, but for me, Gilgamesh's big 'gently caress you I'm here to wreck everything' reveal was pretty nuts because you didn't expect an 8th Servant and it wasn't foreshadowed at all beforehand. So I guess I'm a little sad it isn't going to be such an abrupt 'oh god what' reveal the way it was in the VN.

But on the other hand I guess his first proper introduction in UBW is also very different from Fate and assumes you already know who he is, so it's kind of appropriate. IDK
:shrug:

Having Gil show up out of nowhere and kill Berserker without any foreshadowing like that would have been bullshit. It makes sense in the VN version UBW only because you already know who he is from Fate. It sort-of works when he takes out Caster in Fate, because Caster has basically already lost at that point, but a completely new character taking out Berserker so Shirou and Rin don't have to deal with him would feel too convenient.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Irukandji Syndrome posted:

(Actually, I legitimately can't remember what happened to him in HF. Didn't he get owned by Sakura?)

He attacked Sakura, got careless, and got eaten.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Irony Be My Shield posted:

Actually that reminds me of a question I've had for a while: why does Gilgamesh not care about Saber at all in UBW? He was really obsessed with her in Fate.

Gilgamesh is fickle like that. He's the sort of person who decides whether to save the world or destroy it based on his sense of aesthetics. I think Saber just impressed him less in UBW, plus he found punishing Shinji and Archer for their presumption, etc. more interesting.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Blhue posted:

She can't since she's not actually dead. Or something like that.

Correct. Saber isn't a full Heroic Spirit because she never actually died. This also means that Saber is the original Arturia, sent forward through time, while other Servants are more like perfect copies (with the same memories, etc.) of the original Heroic Spirit on the Throne of Heroes.

One thing I've never been clear on: What exactly is being on the Throne of Heroes like? Do Heroic Spirits even have any conscious experience there, or is the last thing a newly summoned Servant remembers his or her own death? I think EMIYA was described as doing something analogous to reading books about the experiences of copies of himself, but he's a Counter Guardian who gets summoned to do things other than fight in Holy Grail Wars; things might work differently for non-Counter Guardians (they wouldn't even have many copies to read about). I think one of the artbooks/databooks mentions Arcueid becoming Phantasmoon by breaking into Medea's literal room on the Throne of Heroes and stealing her literal magic wand, but that's obviously not meant to be taken seriously.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Extra's plot not very good; it's basically Battle Network 4 (the game that gave us :moreevil:) with the Mega Man names replaced with Type-Moon ones.

CCC is probably better in terms of having an actual plot, but it seems to have the most weird sexual stuff of any Type-Moon work despite not being an 18+ game.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Nov 3, 2014

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Time for more mythology :spergin:!

Notes on the Fifth War's Saber through Caster, incorporating some feedback from other posters: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3671286&userid=185993#post436718370

Feedback is appreciated for these as well, especially regarding Fragarach; I spent a lot of :words: on it without finding a source that gives a good explanation of it.

Sasaki Kojiro (Assassin):
• Historical mentions of Tsubame Gaeshi don’t give much detail, but it was most likely just a rapid, angled down-and-up cut.
• I think Nasu is too quick to conclude that Kojiro was fictional (the Encyclopaedia Brittanica, at least, discusses him as though he actually existed), but there do seem to be a number of odd contradictions in historical accounts of him.

Hassan-i-Sabbah (True Assassin):
• The historical Hassan was a Nazari Ismaili who converted a community in northern Persia. He led a rebellion against the Seljuk Turks from his mountain fortress of Alamut, and died in 1124.
• The title “Old Man of the Mountain” seems to have been used by some sources to refer to Rashid ad-Din Sinan, a leader of the Assassins in Syria and an enemy of Saladin, who died in 1192. However, Marco Polo used this title to refer to the ruler of the Alamut at the time it fell to the Mongols, who would have been Rukn al-Din Khurshah. Other sources refer to Hassan himself as the “Old Man of the Mountain.” The use of this nickname to refer to multiple people may be part of the source of Nasu’s idea of multiple Hassans.
• Of Hassan-i-Sabbah’s successors as Ismaili leaders at the Alamut, which fell to the Mongols in 1256, only three were actually named Hassan, one of whom was Rashid’s boss, and none of whom were called i-Sabbah. Also, including the Da’is, Concealed Imams, and Imams, there were only 11 total rulers of the Alamut, but the number of leaders at Rashid’s fortress at Misyaf seems to be unknown.
• But why nineteen specifically? The idea probably derives from the Zabaniya, a group of 19 guards of the Islamic Hell. This is also the name of the Hassans’ Noble Phantasms.
• True Assassin’s use of drugs during his fight against Saber refers to the story that the name “Assassin” derives from “Hashishin,” and thus that the Assassins were stoners. :v: In Marco Polo’s version of the story, the hashish was used as part of a deception by the Old Man to make the Assassins believe that they had glimpsed Paradise.

Hercules (Berserker):
• Heracles or Hercules? Nasu uses the Roman Hercules over the Greek Heracles, despite otherwise using the Greek names for figures from Greek Mythology.
• Hercules has an invincible body in some versions of his legend, although this is less popular than the version in which his invincibility comes from the Nemean Lion’s skin: http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/2299-Your-Author-quirks/page7?p=806279#post806279
• Hercules makes sense as a Berserker, since Hera made him go mad for a time (possibly on two separate occasions). During his madness, he killed his own children; perhaps his regret over this incident is why he’s so protective of Ilya.
• Rin asserts that Hercules would know Medea from the Argo expedition, but Hercules actually left the group before they met Medea. I guess Rin goofed up again…

Angra Mainyu (Avenger):
• The scapegoat ritual that turned the normal human villager into Angra Mainyu was not an actual Zoroastrian practice, but Ilya acknowledges that the village in question practiced a “distorted” form of Zoroastrianism.
• Avesta, the Noble Phantasm which Avenger says Verg Avesta is a variation of, is the name of the Zoroastrian holy book.
• The concept of a “god of evil” comparable to a benevolent deity in power and importance is, as far as I know, unique to Zoroastrianism and derived religions, such as Manicheanism. However, it should be noted that modern-day Zoroastrians are monotheists who assign the evil Angra Mainyu a much smaller role, and regard the dualist interpretation as a later heresy rather than Zoroaster’s original teaching. Some modern scholars disagree and argue that Zoroastrianism was originally dualistic.
• It’s interesting to note that the term “magus” in real life originally referred to a Zoroastrian priest, and that Pliny the Elder claimed that Zoroaster invented magic. However, Nasuverse magi don’t seem to have any particular connection to Zoroastrianism.

Bazett Fraga McRemitz (Master):
• Although Bazett isn’t a Servant, she uses a Noble Phantasm based on Irish mythology, so she deserves a section here.
• A description of Fragarach’s powers from Lady Gregory’s Gods and Fighting Men: “And he [Lugh] had Manannan's sword, the Freagarthach, the Answerer, at his side, and no one that was wounded by it would ever get away alive; and when that sword was bared in a battle, no man that saw it coming against him had any more strength than a woman in child-birth.”
• Other sources, such as the Dictionary of Medieval Romance and Romance Writers (1913), by Lewis Spense, say of Fragarach’s powers only that it “could pierce any mail.”
• Wikipedia claims, without any actual citations, that “It was said that no one could tell a lie or move, with Fragarach at his or her throat, thus the name 'Answerer'. It was also said to place the wind at the user's command and could cut through any shield or wall, and had a piercing wound from which no man could recover.”
• The actual source of Wikipedia’s assertion may be another fictional interpretation of Fragarach, in Kevin Hearne’s Iron Druid series. Hearne’s interpretation of Fragarach has three powers: to freeze enemies and make them answer questions truthfully (the reason for the epithet “Answerer”), to summon winds, and to cut through armor. An unrelated 21st-century urban fantasy story (Diane Duane’s A Wizard Abroad) also mentions Fragarach controlling the wind. The truth power is mentioned in yet another 21st-century fantasy novel (which appears to be a particularly hackish one), The Enchanter Heir by Cinda Williams Chima. Frustratingly, I can’t find a “real” source for the wind or truth powers; it’s possible fantasy authors are just plagiarizing each other.
• Bazett’s description of what Lugh’s version of Fragarach did can reasonably be taken as Nasu’s understanding of the original myth: that it launched from its sheath without Lugh physically drawing it and struck enemies before they could draw their own swords. I have no idea where this interpretation comes from.
• Bazett’s version of Fragarach, which can be used at full power only in response to attacks and negates the original attack, seems to be inspired by the title “Answerer,” and nicely connects this title with the enemy-weakening property. Bazett’s Fragarach is also good at piercing through armor and other defenses.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Nov 8, 2014

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Soylentbits posted:

Hercules was so famous that Jason kicked his rear end off the ship to keep the adventure focused on him. Everybody in that time knew who Hercules was and they probably all knew he was on the Argo. He was Mythological Superman. There's no way Medea didn't know him.

It makes sense that Medea would know who he was, but the way Rin talked about it made it sound like they'd actually met during the Argo adventure at some point, which is just wrong. In fact, she asserts that Hercules would recognize Medea, rather than the other way around; given Hercules's state of mind at the time, this implies to me that Rin thinks he would recognize her by sight rather than by reputation.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Nov 8, 2014

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Rodyle posted:

I've always thought that kind of thing fits in super well with the whole part where Kiritsugu is supposed to be an emotionally immature weirdo (as is everyone else in his camp really, except maybe Saber).

But that's another part of what makes the whole "Kiritsugu is so much better" crowd weird. "Kiritsugu is so much better because Shirou is so misogynistic blah blah blah" yeah let's bring back the guy who completely disrespects his Servant, murders his foster mother, essentially treats his ward like a rifle with limbs and a vagina, and was planning to ritually sacrifice his wife (albeit with her permission I guess), HE'LL show that high school boy how to treat a woman.

I've sometimes speculated that Shirou's overprotective attitude towards women (which Taiga suggests he got from Kiritsugu) is the result of Kiritsugu's guilt about how badly he treated Maiya, etc.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Xoidanor posted:

At least UBW and Heaven's Feel both had big payoffs to Shirou's character arc, I can't really say the same for Fate. He just gets saved by Saber and Tohsaka over and over again and then he stabs an old man to death, THE END. Sure he learns not to be a chauvinistic prick but he also goes on with his stupid ideals unsullied and becomes Archer.

Where do you get the idea that Fate Shirou becomes Archer?

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Twiddy posted:

Some source material, Nasu gave the percentage chances of Shirou becoming Archer after each route, and Fate had the highest percent chance at like 20%. Heaven's Feel was at like 0% because Heaven's Feel.

Although I guess it isn't Shirou explicitly becoming Archer since the Archer in the narrative is supposed to come out of an Ilya route (right?) so the Shirou would just become an Archer like person. Unless the Servant Archer is basically just a combination of multiple timelines of Archer-like Shirous--

Yeah, I'm done here. Point is, Word of God says Fate Shirou most likely to be Archer.

That's still well under 50%. To say that Fate Shirou "becomes Archer" is a bit odd.

"Archer is from the Ilya route" is one of those things people keep repeating on no real basis. People seem to really want Archer to be a pedo for some reason.

If anything, I think he's from the Ciel route. (Only half joking.)

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Blhue posted:

I think the theory came from the fact that he recognized the corrupted grail shadow monster when it appeared in HF, and since HF had elements of the abandoned Ilya route in it and obviously HF Shirou can't become Archer and Fate/UBW Shirous never saw the grail beast, you could theorize that it'd have to have been some 4th route.

Obviously things went differently in Archer's timeline, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have hooked up with, say, Saber. The differences could simply be the result of Archer's own actions compared to the non-EMIYA Archer from his own timeline.

As for Archer encountering the Shadow, that could easily be a similarity to the Fate/UBW timelines; we don't know the details of what happened when Rin and Waver dismantled the Grail.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Nov 25, 2014

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Beef Waifu posted:

They do, probably.

Pretty sure most of them don't, actually, aside from Caster and Kuzuki. There's also a reasonable chance that Shinji rapes Rider, because "rapist" is pretty much his defining character trait.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


I just realized that my mythology posts didn't cover Bloodfort Andromeda. I'll probably add more Medusa-related stuff to them soon.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Scrree posted:

Yeah, I was kind of annoyed that the first Rider flashback featured Takeuchi indulging in his identical-twin fetish

Posting this again because mocking Takeuchi for being creepy as hell never gets old:

http://www.tsukikan.com/misc/kanwatsukihime/09.html

quote:

Editor: The "twins" thing you were talking about earlier -- it seems like you really have a lot of fantasies toward twins.
Takeuchi: Well, it just so happens that my first love was a set of twins.
Editor: I see. Do you know anything about this, Nasu?
Nasu: We were in the same middle school, but not high school or university. So I'm not sure...
Takeuchi: It happened in middle or elementary school.
Nasu: ...seriously? (Laughs) There were twins in our school?
Takeuchi: Yes... there were.
Nasu: Well, this is all in his head, so what does it matter.
All: (Laugh)
Takeuchi: Now that I think about it, one of the twins was bright, and the other was kind of gloomy.
Nasu: You dreamed it.
Takeuchi: No I didn't!
All: (Laugh)
Takeuchi: They were much like Hisui and Kohaku, though. But about my fantasies... I really wanted to make Hisui and Kohaku erotic characters. So I thought about what sexually arousing characteristics they could have. They were maids, and being twins is kind of mysterious, so I wanted those elements in there.
Nasu: Always working on the catchiness.
OKSG: ...Maybe he's the catcher?
Nasu: Yeah, he's the catcher. (*7)
Takeuchi: I see. (Strained laugh)

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Dr Pepper posted:

The scenes with Caren remind me that Nasu has no idea about how Christianity works.

Nasu's treatment of Christianity actually exceeds my expectations for Japanese genre fiction considerably. For a really bad portrayal of Christianity, see A Certain Magical Index.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Irony Be My Shield posted:

Is the church in TM really bad? Maybe they're over-aggressive, but vampire killing seems important and Kotomine isn't acting in their interests.

Or is there a twist where they're behind everything in Tsukihime, I never finished it

BlitzBlast posted:

They're of the extremist "all non-humans must die and anything out of the ordinary is evil" kind, which kind of sucks when your cast is full of non-humans or wizards.

The only actual Church people we meet are either good guys like Ciel or traitors to the organization like Kotomine. Akiha claims they're full of fanatics, but we don't actually see any.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Cross-posting from the anime thread.

Silver2195 posted:

Yeah, they're not "really" those hair colors. Hollow Ataraxia has a character with hair described as red but drawn as purple, for example.

This actually leads to a minor plot hole involving one character's hair color, but it would be a big spoiler to explain it.

Specifically, Zouken changed Sakura's hair color from black to...black

Ciel's has black hair drawn as blue, while Akiha has black hair drawn as gray. Hisui and Kohaku are actual redheads, though.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Dec 6, 2014

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


"Stature" and "heretic" are rather ambiguous words here, but I take it to mean that a totally ordinary person who happens to have magic circuits can't become a Master; you have to be a weirdo like Shirou or Ryunosuke. Note that even the people who managed to become Masters without magic circuits (by taking other people's Command Spells) were someone who knew about magi and wanted to be one since childhood (Shinji) and two amoral :geno: people (Kuzuki and Reika). For some reason the Nasuverse doesn't seem to do stories about ordinary people discovering the supernatural.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Jeanne definitely counts as a clone, but she's still distinguishable from Arturia if you're not a crazy person like Gilles.

Shielder doesn't look much like Arturia to me, though; she looks like an older and more clothed version of Jack.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Also read Apocrypha.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


It's confusing because Rule Breaker (fittingly?) breaks all the normal rules about how Command Spells work. For example, normally you keep your Command Spells after your Servant dies, and if you make a contract with a new Servant you have to use already-existing Command Spells. However, when Medea uses Rule Breaker on Saber, she gets three new Command Spells out of nowhere. I believe it's also stated somewhere that Kuzuki has things that are sort of like Command Spells but are different somehow.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Compendium posted:

^^^

Seriously, he has no personality traits to the point where he just gets influenced by Lancer's personality so gently caress him

I kind of like True Assassin. His pragmatism and (surprisingly for someone who seemed so inhuman when first introduced) sanity make him a good foil to the other characters, especially Zouken.

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Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Raenir Salazar posted:

Wait so her being a lesbian isn't just a joke by seorin?

Seorin ran the joke into the ground (as he tends to do), but the subtext was laid on pretty thick from the beginning.

Prologue posted:

It's a bad habit of hers. She talks like a guy when she's expressing her true feelings.
...
"Well, I'll come straight to the point. How's it going, Tohsaka? Have you found a reliable partner yet?"
...
"Whatever the result, the loser will obediently follow the winner's orders. Just thinking about it gets me excited."
...
"Well, that's the biggest problem for us. No matter how good a guy it is, there's no point if we can't bring ourselves to love him."
...
To my knowledge, Mitsuzuri Ayako is said to hate men.
...
"Hold it. What do you mean, 'us'?
I'll say it right now, but I'm not cold-hearted like you. I'd have no problem loving a guy."
"Oh, that's a lie. Or you're fooling yourself. There's no way you'd ever be concerned about a guy.
You've never given one good response to any of the confessions made to you. If you had even the slightest interest, you'd think of going out with them. But you keep declining, so it must mean you're not interested in men."

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Feb 1, 2015

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