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Zell is one of only two good characters in your party because he's a moron like everybody else on the entire planet but not a total loving rear end in a top hat about it. Also, as we're going to see during the course of the LP, he and the other good character are the only persons who actually get things done competently at all.
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Dec 8, 2014 14:17
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Foxhound posted:I think they expected people to think along the lines of "Use a little magic to take down powerful enemies faster but sacrifice some strength in the process" or something but it kinda fell flat when auto-attacks were just as or more powerful than magic. For magic, casting vs junctioning is a good idea, and it is implemented well enough (it is not more tedious just from button presses alone to cast stuff than to junction it, for example), but there are so many other things that work against magic: - Drawing is tedious, so if you rely on that to get your stats up, you will value that 1 Fire far more highly. - If you do figure out Refining, the value of one spell plummets so much that the choice between stats and casts vanishes completely. - Still, a "balanced" mix between refining the odd magic crystal drop, leftover card you don't need anymore and draws to top you off is probably The Way It's Meant To Be Played, and this "knows how the game works, but not enough to murder it" thin line for a player is what the game relies on too heavily in almost all of its design. - As soon as you figure out even one "trick" like wooo 100 Water for 5 minutes of work, you will practically never be in a situation where you have, say, 66 Fire on Str and go "okay whatever, that one cast won't kill me". Players will get 100 junctions easily through the multiples the game offers and never cast poo poo because afterwards it's not at the maximum, and that's terribly important for the target audience. Squall himself also falls into the trap of only being an enjoyable character if the player has a very specific mindset: you need to not hate him from the get-go (and, let's face it, there are a lot of different reasons to - maybe irrationally - hate him, even if you reading this don't), but he is obviously meant to be a flawed character, so you also need to see the flaws to understand him correctly and appreciate his later development. The opposite is true for Zell: he is written and treated by the plot as somewhat of a doofus, a comic relief more often than not and I think they want you to only see him as that, checking off a bullet-point list like: - hot dogs - skateboard - SCROOGE Hoping fervently that you'll find this stupid (in contrast to Squall who is ~professional~), but endearing enough to wait for his later development into someone that tones it down a little, like Tidus and/or Wakka. Judging from the discussion here, however, you either hate his guts because his mannerisms are surpremely annoying to you, or you (like me) love him for being far more competent than the game is willing to acknowledge.
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Dec 11, 2014 18:03
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Vil posted:There aren't any card players available yet who use level 6 and 7 cards, however you can get a few of them as a rare (1/16) result from using the Card command on a suitable enemy. For instance, Glacial Eyes (which you can meet near the mountains) can give the level 7 Jumbo Cactuar card if you get lucky when carding them.  .Like, the entire mechanic. It's completely pointless in the context of the game, as the card game exists, and it's trivial to get whatever the gently caress you want from it.
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Dec 12, 2014 17:49
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L-Mag-RF could as well mean Lightning Magic Recovery Force. The entire Dollet sequence is probably the best part of the game, depending on how you rank the final dungeon (or the card game huhuhu). It has so many little things in it, all the different outcomes and possibilities, and most of them actually matter. Especially the robot chase is really, really well done and cool. Even the invisible (and often quite dumb) requirements to not lose/gain points I'm fine with, the reward for getting a high rank is there, but ultimately inconsequential. It's sadly almost immediately inconsequential because of the way the game works, but this is a huge reason why after Dollet, everything takes a nosedive.
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Dec 13, 2014 11:43
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Kajeesus posted:It could mean a lot of things. That's why there's a tool-tip right there literally every time you select it!
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Dec 13, 2014 12:10
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anilEhilated posted:Yup. I'm not saying it's impossible to use - hell, there's the whole trial and error thing - but that it's a really bad part of the "otherwise suberb" translation. Hell, I can even come up with a reason for the bankbot - All Terrain Mobile or something, but this is IMO inexcusable.
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Dec 13, 2014 18:38
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Swordstream (CT ref wooo) Bladehail Conti-Cutter Everslash The "Nonstop Nonsense"
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Dec 14, 2014 00:14
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At least according to Keikaku.
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Dec 15, 2014 00:38
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ApplesandOranges posted:^Couldn't hurt to put in GF profile pictures to break up the text a little.
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Dec 16, 2014 14:30
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MagusofStars posted:Refining the 80 Wizard Stones into Curagas is kind of a waste since you can already buy Tents which convert straight up into Curagas. Since there's literally nothing else worth spending money on at this point, there's no reason whatsoever not to blow all your money on tents every single time. *breaks game in one of the 1887348623 other really obvious ways* This is not meant as critique, except towards the game.
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Dec 21, 2014 14:04
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ArchWizard posted:I thought that at some point it's explanied that drawn spells get crammed into your brain, kinda like how D&D wizards store their spells when they memorize spell charges. I don't have much of a problem with the lore of this particular system, it's really only a thing to think about because FF8 is 3D - in FFV, nobody bats an eye if Galuf changes his clothes from a wide-brimmed hat and blue robe to no shirt and bandana and now can suddenly punch things better instead of magicing them to death. Whatever... My biggest gripe with junctions themselves is actually the inconvenience of managing the drat spells. They try a lot by allowing you to shuffle freely between party members etc., but it's still too tedious. Especially the 100 spells per character limit, it should still be a 100 junction limit, but a shared inventory with a 300 total limit. It is also nonsensical how Tornado is better on health than Curaga is and Blind is slightly better on Magic than Scan but worse than Fire, and that uh Esuna is better on Spirit than Regen (pulling this out my rear end). It's annoying to test that and it really doesn't need to be that complicated, especially as in the end, you will really only have to decide between two optimal setups with on emphasizing health and one strength a tiny bit more (or something).
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Dec 23, 2014 00:21
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Diablos is one of the strangest parts of this game's design, and it constantly baffles me. I like to think about the hows and whys of things were put into games, but I really can't imagine what they were thinking. It is obvious that Diablos is meant to be too hard for you to take on immediately; they warn you, they make you save, he has a shitload of HP and on paper, he can kill you pretty well. But: you can (presumably) draw-cast his Demi spells back at him, he has a crippling weakness to Blind, the game has been rather explicitly telling you "hey yo Status-J, try it", and of course there's the entire Limit thing - even without Blind, you could reasonably obliterate him just with Zell and Squall murdering the poo poo out of him. It is very possible that nobody thought of the ramifications of Limits being absurd again, but that "explains" only a fraction of the problems with Diablos. Either way, the Blind weakness alone signals that they expected a sizable subset of players to get Diablos very early or even immediately. The problem I have with that is Enc-Half and what comes next, but I'm going to talk about that once we know what it is and what it entails. Everything around Diablos exemplifies what I think is fundamentally wrong with the gameplay of FF8, and the fact that you can get him right out the gate is only a small part of the nonsense equation.
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Dec 23, 2014 11:17
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"Zell is actually the reincarnation of the water God Nahtaivel. This theory is supported by his love of hot dogs (which are boiled in water) and that a summon in the game has the water God's name written backwards as default name." I love how this game is so often so dumb and vague that you might just believe him . Or you're really dense I dunnoEDIT: Squall is Hyne's armpit is now my canon explanation for his personality.
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Dec 26, 2014 18:20
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Swillkitsch posted:Zell hiding his SeeD status from his mom is kind of an interesting character note, and it's a shame that I don't think it comes up again in-game--? I could be wrong, though. 
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Dec 26, 2014 18:57
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Kemix posted:I'm honestly considering getting the game on steam after reading up to this part of the LP... Up to here, FF8 is really fun and well put-together and you can screw around and get awesome really fast, but I can only reiterate what I said before: Dollet is easily the best part of the game up until very late. But I am quite the naysayer, if you hadn't gathered. I would recommend waiting until the thing they go to Timber for is done and then reconsider if you want to give Square money for a lazy port of a decade-old PC game. Because the Timber mission, imho, loving sucks in quite a few ways.
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Dec 26, 2014 22:07
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I too think that Laguna and gang are much preferable to the other morons (sans Ze&Se ofc), but good LORD do I hate this scene. I can taste the awkwardness, and yes, this is what they are going for, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. It reminds me of why I hate the Raimi Spider-Man movies so much. I know Parker is supposed to be a dork and that life shits on him a lot. I don't need TEN uncomfortable reminders per scene. I will not identify more with him the more I see him suffer and stutter and squirm. Get this poo poo away from me.
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Dec 28, 2014 12:29
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This loving plan is the dumbest thing. Because we're talking about FF8, it's not THE dumbest thing in the game, though (decide for yourself as further events unfold). It is a perfect example for the game's writing, however. They have a basic idea (let's exchange train cars quietly!) and get lost and lost and LOST in minutiae. It's like...this game needs to be very realistic! It has trains and cars and something only resembling magic! So in contrast to a train part in FF7 where you have two levers that are GO FASTER and STOP, you have lock combinations and turns and timing and stuff to take care of! But wait, someone asks, what about the guards? Right, someone else says, we should have another sub-minigame representing stealthing around them. But WAIT, someone ELSE says, what about the president, wouldn't the guards notice he's gone? No problem, says the writer! We just make a dummy! One that can TALK! That should address all the issues, phew. Finally. Also it will give much-needed comic relief to a scene in which war orphans plot the overthrowing of a ruthless, evil dictator. PERFECT. The end result makes sense if you think about this process. It can only really be explained by a constant problem-solution-another problem chain like above, and this is a constant for the entire game. Every single scenario is written by three people going "but what about" and "of course we have an [x] to explain that" as answers. Looking at the entire thing, of course, it's a ludicrous mess. But apparently, nobody ever did take a look at that whole picture. Also Rinoa loving sucks and I hate her but that's another matter entirely.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:15
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Brony Hunter posted:Why is Rinoa a higher level? I thought everything scaled to your party? Ah well, take Zell, so he can get on live TV and prove to the world he's not a chicken wuss. I hate minigames. I severely dislike this mission.
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Jan 3, 2015 00:00
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Regalingualius posted:Hell, what I don't get is why they didn't just let Seifer execute Deling after Zell let the cat out of the bag. Worst case scenario, they're locked in a war with a country that's probably going to have a massive power vacuum when the news leaks. Best case, Deling was the only one who heard, and the SeeDs are assumed to be a particularly good rebel group; Timber declares independence in the middle of the resulting clusterfuck, and the letter of their contract is fulfilled in record time.
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Jan 16, 2015 10:11
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 Selphie ist the only ray of light in this scene filled to the brim with joyless misery. EDIT: Not unlike the dark miasmas coursing through the tainted blood of Squall, cursed as he was to be born into this pain-filled world.
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Jan 24, 2015 13:40
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This game has random encounters? Actually, Enc-None (now that we have it) is one of the most incomprehensible parts of this game to me. You can get it incredibly early, far earlier than most FFs, if such a thing even exists in them (I think FFX-2 had a really early no-encounter thing), and pretty much any player beyond the "I'm pretty sure Square knew what the best order of skills to learn for GFs is" stage will immediately beeline for Enc-Half, and then realize how much Enc-None is worth. And then you never have to fight a single random encounter ever again. It's not even taking up that much space that could be filled with something better. Slap it on, never. Ever. Fight. Again. It cuts playtime probably in half, it removes 90% of the content from you as you only get to see monsters through their cards, and it's just there. In any other FF, you'd say yeah, but if you constantly use it, then you're way underleveled and then you're doing either an extreme challenge run (and for those, it's good to have the ability so early) or will brickwall on some boss and have to restart, slapping yourself in the process. But in FF8 it's literally best to never fight a random encounter. After I got Enc-None in my playthrough, I was in this weird place where for most parts of the game, I took it off deliberately for five or so fights just to get a feel for the monster population and then put it on again because so many dungeons in FF8 are really loving bad and Enc-None is actually a godsend of ludicrous proportions. I had to force myself to play the game as it...was meant...to be played...? Which brings us to the questions, how did they not realize that when making the game? Was one designer convinced that normal leveling was still superiour to always staying at the lowest level possible, as if the gains (higher spells to Draw! Woo!) would somehow outweigh the cons (everything else)? Did he not talk to the guy who made the level scaling system? When playing games, I usually try to find that mystical "the way it's meant to be played", because I like getting behind the scenes, so to speak, and then I can still decide to break away from the designer's intent in amusing ways. But I can't wrap my head around Enc-None. How did they want the player to use it? Start slapping it on as soon as the dungeon got annoying? An advice: don't design annoying dungeons. Get it somehow very late in one playthrough and then try it out early on the next? Everything with how Diablos is presented prevents that scenario from happening, sorry. Deliberately pull it off just to see some monsters? What I did, then? Playing some sort of meta-game of "how much do I actually want to see", disconnecting myself from the experience as much as possible by giving me the most freedom? Is this somehow a good thing? I am so confused by Enc-None.
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Feb 20, 2015 10:06
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CmdrKing posted:My best guess with Enc-None is that the game did not intend for most players to actually get Diablos right then. Note how his position on the menu is a space or two down from Siren- they seemed to assume players would ignore the thing until roughly the start of disc 2. If we figure the first dungeon in disc 2 is spent learning it, this would actually put learning Enc-None past the halfway point of the game in terms of areas we'd traditionally term dungeons. Anyway if I hadn't had Enc-None for the desert prison dungeon I'd probably have clawed my brain out so in the end, it's definitely for the best. Still, "good to have it because the dungeon design is heinous" is not quite a sweeping endorsement of anything, really.
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Feb 20, 2015 18:42
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I'm perfectly fine with the "best weapon on Disc 1" thing because the amount of effort to do so is ridiculous and the pay-off basically nonexistant. It's also really something only a dedicated guide-follower or REALLY dedicated player on their own will find. FF12 also isn't broken because you can get the Zodiac Spear really early by sneaking through the Necrohol; it has other problems (related to the spear), but how early it is obtainable is not. In fact, it's a nice little (big) thing to do for someone who has beaten the game a few times already. If FF8 wasn't so broken in other ways, people would be praising it as a cool "secret" for the dedicated and stubborn. The lamp is a total non-sequitur, I'm pretty sure, which makes it even stranger. It's also something that would be quirky and almost funny (like DOOM HOUSES or whatever in FF7), if not for the circumstances surrounding it...and how seriously FF8 takes itself.
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Feb 20, 2015 19:45
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I loved this dungeon because it is, you know, a dungeon, with a gimmick! It's not even that hard to wrap your head around it (or you can buy the locator or...), you get to explore and push buttons and there are TWO optional bosses! It's great stuff and what the game should consist of instead of overcomplicated pointless-rear end train minigames.
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Mar 6, 2015 10:12
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The upcoming everything is why I will never fail to laugh at Stockholm Syndrome'd players who're like "no no the game is only really stupid and dumb starting from Disc 3, promise". FF8's writers have this strange urge to overexplain absolutely everything (see also: The Train Heist) with the clear intention to make everything more "realistic" and "thought through", without realizing that the more details they add, the less things overall make sense. You could easily cut about two thirds of the exposition here (the exact route of the float, the Gate Team, the exactly 20:00h clock reveal thingy) and the scene would still work as intended while making infinitely more sense, AS WELL AS cutting down on boring, goofy and tonally nonsensical scenes of Caraway walking in circles.
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Mar 14, 2015 15:46
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Literally all problems in FF8 could be solved by bombing the poo poo out of them, including the blossoming (do you see it yet!!!) romance between the main characters.
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Mar 16, 2015 13:16
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FH_Meta posted:Honestly, I think you'd have to actively try to make a bombing plan that is worse than what we've got.
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Mar 16, 2015 13:26
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This is one of the biggest contrivances the game comes up with to "solve" some of its problems at once. These would be: - We need some kind of tension before the plan goes through, because "yeah we set up everything perfectly and then started to execute it" is obviously boring and useless to show. Of course, they couldn't just cut the preparation phase and jump right into the action because that would have meant leaving things out and FF8's writing is deathly afraid of that. - Rinoa needs to be captured by the Sorceress, possibly while fleshing out her character some more. This is of course impossible without some contribution by the other people, because even though FF8 focuses a lot on Squall and Rinoa, only Squall is ever allowed to be alone in thoughts and actions; Rinoa ultimately only exists with him, because of him and for him. - To achieve the above, the writers thought it best to use a hilarious comedy of errors which is in its own right a microcosm of ridiculous contrivance. Caraway locks the room, but not on his own, with this timed switch from somewhere else, which Rinoa knows about and has time to escape, and which takes juuuust long enough for the other three to miss her completely, somehow, and walk in before the door closes. - The next problem is that everything since arriving in the city could have been one extended cutscene, shattering the pacing. This is the only reason why the "trial" tomb exists, and it's the only reason for the next segment. Plot-wise, neither dungeon is even remotely necessary, and while keeping the gameplay pacing at least reasonably flowing (I still think there is far too much talking in this game, most of it stupid), it kills the story pacing somewhat fierce. Which is strange, considering the emphasis on story. Did I ever say these were good solutions they came up with? - The final problem is that none of these things happening makes sense, so they desperately write line over line of characters awkwardly explaining their motivations for doing the stupidest poo poo possible, in the futile hope that the sheer amount of words will lull the player into a "huh I guess if you put it THAT way" state. At least if the player is me.
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Mar 17, 2015 10:16
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morallyobjected posted:having spent the last three years working with teenagers, it seems like everyone who says this part makes no sense has not spent the last three years working with teenagers  .Seriously, though - I think the argument that their behaviour is realistic because they're supposed to be irrational is bad in two ways. First, you can explain just about everything with "but their actions are SUPPOSED to make no sense!", which is far weaker than, say, using Quistis' previous history with bad leadership qualities. That I find tentative because we're only told she lacks those qualities and really only see a possible example here, but whatever. It's still a better case to make, I feel. Secondly, as "realistic" as that kind of behaviour might be, it doesn't mean I have to enjoy that as a player. Guns jamming randomly is pretty realistic, that doesn't mean it's a terribly good idea in most games. Teenagers loving up randomly might also be realistic, that doesn't mean I want to play as them.
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Mar 17, 2015 16:47
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Kal-L posted:Zell (yeah, I know) said that Odine brand is top-notch when it comes to magic items.
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Mar 21, 2015 22:15
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I loving hate how there is so little dungeons in this game. Final Fantasy is and has always been (to me at least) a dungeon crawler with less to not at all interesting story bits in-between. FF8 has a dearth of dungeons with awesome poo poo to do and possibly the least bosses in the entire franchise (I didn't count, okay, but it felt that way), and waaaaay too much running around towns/gardens/trains talking to insane people about their moronic plans. That's probably my main gripe with the game, there is not enough of the potentially interesting actual gameplay.
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Mar 22, 2015 10:33
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VagueRant posted:Are you the one guy they made Final Fantasy XIII for? Wow. I hate all that stuff and really appreciate when a game can tell a story and give you interaction without having to resort to basic kill-mans gameplay. I don't think there is much to argue between us, actually. You just expect a completely different experience from your games and that is fine. I set gameplay above all and the story is at best a pleasant interlude, at worst an annoying distraction. As I hate FF8's story and most of the characters... As someone before said, FF9 really got the balance right even though it has an actually pretty bad combat system (if you can even call it that), it's story and characters and world and music are just so good to me that I'm not really bored even when there is kind of a stretch between dungeons, but even then you can usually play minigames (not bad ones at that) and perform sidequests. The one saving grace FF8 has is that you can Triple Triad all the time, but even that wears thin after a while, for me at least. And for the record, FF13 is loving terrible because it's such a slog, even though it's just "gameplay", for 90% of the game it's so samey and boring and ugh. As an aside, I am now playing Dimensions on my phone, and it tries for a town/dungeon/town/dungeon setup, but you know what? It's also terrible at it. Neither of the two segments are in any way interesting, it just goes to show that the minutiae matter as much as the actual gameplay/story ratio.
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Mar 23, 2015 08:31
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All of this is pretty much entirely "uuuh we haven't had a dungeon in a while... ...also no bossfight..." The sewer is as pointless and stupid as the lizards are. I would give those more credit if you actually had to save Rinoa (FF9 did this surpremely well!), but as it stands, they just leave a resounding "...what?" in their wake.
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Mar 30, 2015 12:54
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Regalingualius posted:Eh, when you get right down to it, it's hardly the worst orphaned plot in the grand scheme of things. I also think that the injury just being healed off-screen is nonsense. Even when what happened probably just was "you know the prison sequence is up next soooo how do we make the party lose?", they could have done something with it. A lot of genre contemporaries do gameplay things to signify the protagonist being hurt/crippled/confused/poisoned, and it would be as simple (and ultimately meaningless) to take away Squall's ability to pull the gunblade's trigger as long as he is plot-injured. He recovers that after some other scene with a few words, in the end it doesn't matter at all, but the injury is not just handwaved and this whole debate is moot.
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Apr 20, 2015 08:33
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The anti-magic field is such a painfully stupid thing to put in. It's a very, very obvious plot contrivance, especially considering unless I remember incorrectly that it never comes up again, and really should if that's a widespread technology and it doesn't even really matter for this sequence! Zell doesn't get healed but saves the day anyway, and any other "uuuh why don't they just use magic" could be solved by having the magic spells be included in the pile of weapons Zell picks up. It's pseudo-physical pseudo-magic anyway, who cares really. In general, I hate this stupid loving dungeon and everything about it except for the fact that Squall gets zapped. We will probably see more of what makes it suck so much next update.
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Apr 26, 2015 19:49
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This dungeon loving blows holy poo poo. Whenever I think about how much I hated a lot of FF8 when playing it, this garbage is first and foremost in my mind. It's like the FF7 stairwell, but not funny, mandatory, and the rewards for doing even more optional faffing about on copy-pasted screens are very meager. It is anti-game design and only somewhat excusable by the existance of Enc-None. I can't even imagine how much of a complete nightmare it would have been with random encounters. It also houses two of my go-to examples for absolutely nonsensical spergery. I was following a GameFAQs guide for FF8 when playing it (I freely admit that caused me to spend even more time here because the knowledge of poo poo on the bottom floors forced me to go there, obviously), and there were sections detailing how to get a "perfect game". This, of course, entails having 99 of every item in your inventory at the end of the game. And this means that you have to spend literal real-time weeks playing cards to get 99 Rosetta stones. The guide detailed a route perfectly made to manipulate the RNG and get it every time, but with all the soft-resets and walking there and other fluff, it was actually calculated to take that long. It is one of the least fun sounding experiences someone obviously willingly submitted themselves to I have ever read about. The other thing is the battle statistics thing because of course getting perfect stats on it (no deaths and kills maxed out) for your characters is also vital, somehow.
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May 5, 2015 12:16
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Had to look it up:code:code:code:code:
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May 5, 2015 13:46
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Cool Ghost posted:Just wanted to let everyone know that I'm going to be away from home starting next Monday, so updates might become (even more) sporadic, depending on my internet access. Also wanted to let you know that I've added a bit of stuff to the last update, if you were really interested in the fact that you can find a handful of items on the lower prison floors (Pet House, Pet Nametag, Str Up, Combat King 001). If you don't punch some assholes with your dolphin buddies all the time, you're playing the game wrong . I sure as hell know that this move is the single most entertaining thing in all of FF8. You don't even have to remember the combo - Zell's limit writes it down for you! Dolphin Blow them away!
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May 12, 2015 15:27
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ApplesandOranges posted:That's a lie when Doomtrain exists.
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May 12, 2015 17:04
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Namechat: I played FF8 exclusively with a buddy and under the influence of beer because no other way, really, and we decided on a stupid whim to call Squall "Apfel" (apple), ofc Rinoa then needed to be "Birne" (pear). We lost our poo poo when we realized that the dog needed to be called "Orangelo".. ...but that doesn't fit the character limit  .
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May 21, 2015 22:39
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