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Magnadramon would work a lot better as the final form if the series hadn't ALREADY portrayed Angewomon and Gatomon as analogs to Angemon and Patamon. I mean, you can argue that that's a pretty crappy thing to do, but there's also no denying that the series has flat out done it. I mean, c'mon, Kari and TK are the youngest, the only ones of the main three to have D-3s and been moved to the 02 team, they consistently team up, their siblings are the main characters whose Digimon fuse all the time... Saying that they're not basically a duo already is ignoring every single thing to the contrary, and in that case, using Ophanimon really does work better from a narrative stand point. Now, Tri could play with that and display Magnadramon as Kari and Gatomon breaking out of that mold into their own people, but so far that doesn't seem like what they're running with.
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Apr 30, 2017 02:01
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The point is more you being vehemently against it, and trying to argue with people that it doesn't make sense. Except it makes perfect sense, design-wise and narratively, for Kari to get Ophanimon as the Mega. It, in fact, makes more sense than getting Magnadramon. Now, if they do what it would actually take to make it narratively satisfying for her to get Magnadramon over Ophanimon, that would be one thing, but currently all signs are pointing to it making more sense for the latter. That doesn't mean they won't just have it end up as Magnadramon anyway, but there's a difference between something being narratively forced, and something being narratively satisfying.
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Apr 30, 2017 02:34
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RealFoxy posted:Gatomon is a weird line anyway. She starts out as champion but the same size as the rookies and she's only marginally stronger than the rookies and never even gets to show it anyway. One of her first appearances has her chump basically the entire line of protagonists' champions in like one blow each.
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Apr 30, 2017 03:36
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The Gatomon thing would have be exceedingly easy to fix without having to gently caress with power levels. Just say that for whatever plot reason, the Digimon can't fight at full power/aren't fully effective in the area around Dark Spires and such, unless they're infected by the evil energy and stuff. Armor Digimon bypass that. There you go, now you need Armor forms to keep going, no matter what power your previous level was, or what comparable power your Armor form ACTUALLY is.
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May 1, 2017 06:24
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TFRazorsaw posted:I've explained, at length, why the circumstances involving Angemon aren't a "retcon". The rest of it is me pointing out that it's necessary Takeru not be treated like a force unto himself that undermines everyone with a partner not named "Patamon", in Adventure or 02 both. Why do you keep bringing up Angemon? Until you started arguing the point, no one else was talking about him. Angemon is simple: he is super effective against Dark types. That's it. That's the entire gimmick. Angewomon has the same gimmick, she's just a tier higher than he is. If TK had managed to get Magna Angemon against Myotismon, that arc would have been immediately solved. So what are you arguing? That people are saying Angemon is actually weak? I'm not even sure where your argument is going anymore, you literally brought it up to argue against with no prompting. The main thing people are saying right now is that in 02, the story bent over backwards to justify why the original group were ineffective. That's not even debatable, that is what happened. Which is standard fare for sequels like this, because otherwise War Greymon and Metal Garurumon would have just walked up to the Digimon Emperor and been like "hey, keep it down son". In fact, it seemed what kicked off this argument was the idea that Gatomon actually got a fairly good showing in her initial appearance, taking out everyone in one hit. After which, 02 dropped her down to rookie level. For a lot of people seeing that scene for the first time, and being introduced to her, and her arc afterwards, that made her the coolest poo poo. Seeing her dropped down to Rookie level strength because "oops, lost a little piece of jewelry" rubs people the wrong way, no matter how it was justified. There were also narrative alternatives around that, but they didn't use any of them. They simply justified it (way) after the fact, and left one of the cooler Digimon down a tier for the entire season. Your argument about Angemon is invalid, because the one who stopped following the rules in 02 was Gatomon, and the justification for that was weak and pointless.
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May 1, 2017 07:14
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:But Gatomon nerfing happened as soon she joined the digidestined, so is kind of overreacting at 02. At least 02 gave a reasonable explanation for that instead of shoving her to the background and let Angewomon do all the work. At that point, they were only fighting Ultimates/Megas. All the Champions were pushed to the back in terms of battle strength. Gatomon didn't have an Angemon-style super effective element, so she was treated as a normal Champion; ineffective against higher tiers. If she got knocked around a little, it was because she was about the size of a rookie and weighed about the same. Didn't make her weaker.
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May 1, 2017 07:32
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TFRazorsaw posted:But no, 02 actually acknowledging she should, ideally, be more powerful and handing her a modest nerf that actually results in giving her and Hikari opportunities to be more involved in the team is somehow a bad thing? Yes, actually, because the way the nerf worked was "oh poo poo, my little tail jewelry is gone, I am now a weakling". It didn't matter how it was justified later, first impressions are very important, and to a lot of people Gatomon's first impression being "clowns all the heroes", followed by "partner to the girl with the clear magical powers", "lost anti-hero", "cool bro dies for her", and "gets an angelic power up before one-shotting the big bad who had been clowning everyone else the rest of the arc" kind of cemented her in those people's minds as kind of a big deal, and cool as gently caress. After that, we go right to Megas, which were then kind of a big deal, and took a lot of the focus away. People didn't notice Gatomon being not quite as cool as before because they were distracted by the dragon man and the robot wolf being cool. Meanwhile, in 02, her being weakened is thrown right into your face. You are flat told "she lost a tiny ring, thus she is weakened", and that's it. As I said, it takes an extended amount of time to get to the justification for why her not getting that ring back ASAP was important, and for that entire time, she comes off as the only Adventure cast member who is explicitly nerfed, as opposed to circumstances just disabling better forms. She was first introduced as a powerful, cool, female villain/anti-hero who got to kick rear end in Adventure, was overshadowed by the new hotness for a while, and then in the sequel series she was kicked down to the rookie leagues, literally, by narrative fiat. That rubbed people the wrong way, no matter how you want to say the plot justified it later.
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May 1, 2017 07:46
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TFRazorsaw posted:Fandom prioritizing superficial things ("one shots?" she does it with the help of the entire team powering up her signature move, it's more like she "eight shots" him) shouldn't have any influence on the writers' decisions or acting like Adventure managed to do something it didn't. Hell, the more I think about it, the more I realize the Dark Master saga gave nearly everyone else but Hikari a chance to shine, while the most she gets in an arc that should actually be about ehr is Angewomon being a face in the crowd at the end of it. No, the actual character development goes to Taichi, the Dark Master gets to be beaten by WarGreymon, and Hikari and Tailmon get unanswered questions about her being a lamp. Meanwhile, Birdramon shows up and Tailmon doesn't even get to punch a Tankmon. I didn't claim she was overshadowed in 02, you misread. I said she was overshadowed in the fandom's "coolness" attention after the Megas showed up in Adventure. You seem to be trying to play this completely logically, but this is an emotional opinion thing. You can break it down as "no here's why is made sense she was weakened" and "here's other bad showings by her", but in terms of what people are going to remember, what actually stuck in their minds, it was stuff like her first appearance, her unique arc among the others, and the moment she shot the big bad who had been, up until that point, the most successful villain in the series. After that, the first bit of focus she gets in 02 is being nerfed, and that stuck with people. You can keep saying "BUT THE REST OF ADVENTURE DIDN'T SHOW HER AS STRONG AND ALSO SHE GOT AN OK SHOWING IN 02" but for most people, that doesn't matter because those parts didn't make an impression on them. Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Still, can you call it a retcon when is part of the setup of the sequel and is elaborated upon as said sequel goes on? Yes, IE, Leia being Luke's sister.
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May 1, 2017 08:10
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TFRazorsaw posted:And... don't you think our level of discussion should be above poo poo like that? Like at what point does this stop being about the show that actually exists and slipping into the same territory as the DBZ fans who act like their adolescent interpretation of power levels means anything? You're not saying anything that disproves what I said about it being about the show everyone believed Adventure was than the show it actually is. No, I don't think it should be, because all I'm doing is explaining to you why people think like that. If people wanted to examine the show completely logically, they would, but those of us into stuff like Digimon are generally here because we saw it when we were kids, and we're here because we have fond memories of it. This is not the newest, hottest anime, or something. This is a legacy series, and those of us here are more or less legacy fans. We could all rewatch the series annually to keep it fresh in our minds, and only have very reasoned and logical debates about whether or not the 02 cast was more technically proficient than the Adventure cast, but for most of us we just see it as a fun show we liked as kids that, honestly, we are way too still attached to. We're all manchildren and womanchildren here, and that means we don't give a poo poo about how reasoned an argument is about how Gatomon wasn't as good as we remember, she got to bop Greymon on the head and had a cool wizard friend who died for her and was an anti-hero who got to be redeemed and shoot a big magic arrow at the bad guy and kill him, and as a kid, that was cool as poo poo.
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May 1, 2017 08:24
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TFRazorsaw posted:Digimon Adventure, episode 49, a combined attack from Angemon, Birdramon, and Angewomon, fails to kill WaruMonzaemon, who is associated with Machine digimon. Let's be honest, that was kind of bullshit no matter how you slice it. Angewomon is an Ultimate, and there's two high powered Champions pitching in there too. That should probably had killed the poo poo out of him. That's just bad writing. quote:That makes sense to a degree, but when it comes up in the discussion, why is pointing out what was actually going on seen as a bad thing? I think that's ultimately where we're failing to see eye to eye on. Basically, it's because you keep feeling the need to explain "no, this is what really happened". People understand that, yeah, her showings weren't as good later, and that yeah, the series later justified why she couldn't be allowed to just put the ring back on. However, for the former, people were more effected by her earlier showings, and for the latter, it really did feel like a cheap way to nerf her and keep her nerfed, as opposed to something that happened naturally. It actually does fit with the Leia thing pretty well: it exists to explain something that the writers wanted to happen, without explicitly contradicting anything. Neither felt natural, however, despite not being contradictory, and both were kind of disconcerting. The Leia thing has the advantage of thirty some years of space from the next time it mattered, but it still rubs quite a few people the wrong way.
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May 1, 2017 08:41
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TFRazorsaw posted:Because we haven't had enough discourse in this thread, let's talk about what might have been. Specifically, this guy. I never noticed this before, but good gently caress looking at it with that in mind, I can totally see it.
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May 3, 2017 02:48
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That "Someone" is General Yeti, and you shall salute him with respect.
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May 10, 2017 03:07
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TFRazorsaw posted:It feels like this fandom has a particularly bad fixation on nostalgia that's only gotten worse as the years went on. No, that's normal for any long-running fandom, and also nostalgia is the entire reason Tri exists. You've just sort of got tunnel vision, and haven't really taken into account how people form connections to initial depictions of things, and want to defend their nostalgia in illogical ways.
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May 22, 2017 01:35
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Maybe they're gonna redesign Keramon in some way to work with this? I CAN see what appears to be Keramon parts of some type under the hands, so presumably the hands will flip up, and... Ok, I'm honestly not sure.
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May 27, 2017 02:00
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TFRazorsaw posted:There is next to nothing morally objectionable or approaching what you said in Xros Wars/Fusion (besides the writing, eyyy) beyond fanservicey stuff, but they still cut that show to ribbons with nonsensical edits, character warping humor, screwing with the plot, and painting a Digimon who was perfectly fine to air on Fox Kids in the year 2000 day glo green. And that's not even getting getting into the inconsistencies involving Digimon who had been localized for years and would have been simple enough to check, but that's comparatively more minor. A lot of this has to do with network demands, also. The idea is that you need to be able to get through a ton of levels of red tape to get these things on the air. Sometimes the network they've got the show slotted for will make demands, and request changes. There is no single set of standards and practices that everything can be forced into, and decisions are made by people, not computers. Whomever was going over names for the localization of Lilithmon apparently felt it was not usable, and asked for it to be changed. Meanwhile, Beelzemon looked like nonsense to them, and they were like "well ok". Every name does not come to the censors with a carefully designed entomology note to explain it. Why did Daemon get through? Someone didn't realize the implications of the changed name, and didn't actually know what it was linked to. Remember, you are assuming these people have full knowledge of what they're looking at. That's not generally how these things work; they'll get a script to look at, and they'll make red marks and be like "change this, change this". If they see someone has written a name as "Demon", they might change it because duh. However, if the script writer anticipated that, and initially wrote "Daemon", and the person doing the checking doesn't realize the implication of the name, they'll just let it through because it looks like a nonsense word to them. Basically, you're assuming that because Bandai or Toei decided on a name in America, it should be able to pass censorship and legal for cartoons and the like. That's not how it works, though; marketing departments are different for shows and TV, safety and decency standards change over the years. Remember how years ago in America a realistic Megatron toy could be sold, and then later you needed an orange barrel, and then Hasbro said that the entire toy would need to be orange, and then later they said standards had changed to the point that it wasn't even possible to rerelease it in America no matter the colors? That happens with TV shows and networks and everything else, too. Things change, and things that were considered alright in the past aren't always approved in the future. Or someone managed to get something through the censors in the past, but they caught on this time. Or there's a legal hang up with a name, and ownership rights, and it's easier to just change it than it is to get all the red tape cleared in time to air. There are a million reasons inconsistent terminology and localization happens, and they change all the time. Japanese Digimon has been more or less handled by the same companies in Japan, where no translation is needed, but here in America it has to go through constantly changing red tape, and it doesn't have Nintendo's clout, power, and money behind it to push through consistency like Pokemon does. The companies change, the ownership changes, the workers and directors and censors change, the cast and crew change and have other commitments, the networks change, and everything is done more or less on a bare minimum budget because it is a kids show dub done at kids show dub prices and kids show dub practices. This isn't One Piece, or Naruto, or Yu-Gi-Oh where those shows were basically juggernauts for a while, and remember, not even those shows got through nearly unscathed. Digimon is a niche among a niche, and is funded as such. Frankly, the fact that the first season was able to be set in Japan, and had as many religious references as it did, was amazing. Things, however, have changed, and will keep changing, and you have to accept that instead of saying "No, it's perfectly valid if I keep complaining about it, because they're just not trying hard enough". Chances are, everyone is trying as hard as they are able, and no one wants to write tripe. Sometimes, though, that's just the way it falls, and there's no time or money or anyone in a position to fix it.
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May 27, 2017 23:18
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TFRazorsaw posted:I don't think anyone deserves mockery. But I'm not going to praise a show that's full of holes and downright terrible writing, or call an arguable censorship dodge that turns a character's name into a pile of nonsense. The fact is, you can change things and still make a solid product, but at the end of the day, Digimon just adds up to too many of them. The growing pains shows like Naruto made to end up on the air are one thing, but the way Digimon has continued like this over a decade later is embarrassing. Hell, Bandai is still mixing up the names of "Ebonwumon" and "Zhuqiaomon", despite the anime writers catching it all the way back in 2001. So stop complaining about it like those who can tolerate the end product are wrong for doing so. No one is saying you're not allowed to like what you like, but quite honestly we don't need to know about how you can't stand it. We get it, you thinks they're badly done, and in some ways you're correct, but for a lot of us that stupid poo poo just makes it more entertaining, or makes it funny. We can always go watch a sub if we want, but the sub isn't going to do hilarious poo poo like try to combine two movies together while slicing out an entire subplot, or changing rice balls to hamburgers, or painting over guns and having the world's most dangerous finger pointing contests. If you don't like it, fine, but don't poo poo on the rest of us for what we like.
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May 27, 2017 23:41
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Burkion posted:Maybe Transformer fans? No, they still exist. It's just that the wiki that everyone goes to is run by the segment of the fandom that's cool with all the inconsistent, stupid poo poo, and celebrates it. You can easily find the segments of the fandom that can't pull their heads out of their asses, though, and they're still loud. It's just, what they shout doesn't matter, because there's so much Transformers media to go around that most everyone can find what they like.
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May 27, 2017 23:46
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TFRazorsaw posted:for a long time the baby fandom insisted V-mon's Japanese name was "Buimon", which is how it's pronounced phonetically by Japanese speakers. So?
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Jun 25, 2017 22:09
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Looks like it literally says "Ultimate", so it would be equivalent to English Mega. edit: f;b
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Jun 26, 2017 07:08
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TFRazorsaw posted:Fanfictiony, how? Meicoomon's evolution line has paralleled Tailmon's since her introduction. Don't. Just... don't.
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Jun 26, 2017 08:29
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TFRazorsaw posted:I am so confused. I'm not trying to be mean, it's just that whenever these things get brought up, it suddenly tends to descend into "no, I'm right in this argument over semantics, and here's why" for like a page and a half on both sides. Maybe it's better to just let it slide. Though I will say the design looks a little odd for Meicoomon, but then again it's not like Patamon looks that much like Seraphimon, or the like. Kurui Reiten fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Jun 26, 2017 |
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Jun 26, 2017 08:44
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Blaze Dragon posted:Super Ultimate form (and Super Ultimates in general) have never appeared outside of V-Tamer and a single card game expansion centered on V-Tamer itself. That level was, in fact, in Cyber Sleuth itself. Pretty much anything that was a Mega that powered up or DNA'd was Super Ultimate/Ultra in CS.
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Aug 10, 2017 02:45
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:I would be perfectly okay with that. BanchoAngewomon. Do it Toei.
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Sep 29, 2017 03:23
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So can someone give me a quick rundown on who these two sides are again, in this case? Generally it seems like each media franchise for Digimon uses one or the other, if at all, and this is the first time I can remember both of them being directly relevant at once. It's getting a bit confusing for me, trying to remember which side is which and is fighting for and responsible for what.
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Sep 30, 2017 11:44
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Thanks, that helps a bit. Though honestly the last movie is going to have a LOT to explain. We better get a massive rear end text dump, because good poo poo.
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Sep 30, 2017 12:22
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While true, we also still have to deal with the 02 kids, possibly do SOMETHING with the Dark Ocean (which is explicitly called out as NOT the Digital World in 02, so it should be weird Himekawa is there), deal with Himekawa's whole thing, and, since he's been reborn, probably kill Leomon again. Lots to do.
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Sep 30, 2017 12:43
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I didn't really think of it like that, but I guess you're right. She just gets there because DARKNESS!, Kingdom Hearts style. Though I mean, she's sinking into its depths. It just feels like that should be relevant somehow, since she doesn't have an Angewomon to save her like Kari does. I just hope this isn't how they're writing her out of the plot, like "and then Himekawa was never seen again", plot line over. Also, yeah, it shouldn't be explained, but that doesn't mean you can't do more with it. Especially after the 02 kids dumped pretty much the one villain they couldn't beat into it. You're probably right that they're not going to be relevant, because this isn't a movie about them, but it has never felt right that no one really loving cares they're missing. I mean, Evil Gennai keeps using Ken's body, they fight a dark Imperialdramon in the second movie, and Kari and TK still use their 02 Digivices. Obviously that series happened, and poo poo in it is important, but no one seems to care in-story. Kurui Reiten fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Sep 30, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 13:01
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The final side is clearly Myotismon popping back in and being like "hey guys hope you didn't forget me" and immediately being vaporized again. Like Leomon.
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Oct 1, 2017 05:43
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TFRazorsaw posted:BelialVamdemon doesn't have a completely tension killing crotch monster. oh dear gently caress i forgot about that loving thing truly a masterpiece
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Oct 1, 2017 07:56
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Malo/Belial legitimately looks like a design that could be a lot better with a different head. I dunno, maybe take like, a Quebley head, put it on there, and put that Vamdemon mask on it. The whole "LOOK AT MY UGLY FACE AND STUPID HAIR" thing doesn't really feel like it works with the rest of the design.
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Oct 1, 2017 08:05
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drrockso20 posted:That's Venusmon, one of the Olympus Twelve Third video.
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Oct 2, 2017 04:34
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Those are also some very well angled poses and shots. We know that one of the main transformation steps has to be "turn the entire fucker around, the arms are painted half-and-half", but looking at that picture you can't tell the color thing.
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Oct 24, 2017 08:48
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I am seriously kind of sad the other Banchos get no love in games. Yeah, Bancho Leomon is badass, but all those designs are great. Look at BanchoMamemon, he wants to double bat you so bad.
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Mar 13, 2018 12:14
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It's DT. Just pretend he's not posting, or put him on ignore. Dude will post endlessly about poo poo no one cares about and act like everyone is incredibly interested.
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Apr 8, 2018 01:16
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Hitlersaurus Christ posted:I’m pretty he’s literally the first one. It always struck me as strange that he wasn’t the perfect-health evolution of Agumon in the original virtual pet. He looks much closer to Agumon than Greymon, but you only get him if you’re so-so at taking care of your monster. Which is probably why he's the "normal" evolution, and then if you're really good, you get Greymon who is cool and special and different.
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Apr 10, 2018 13:57
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Note that half of the Digimon Pops listed there aren't even in the screenshot they posted.
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Apr 15, 2018 08:48
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Gonna put this in spoilers because I don't know how much we're still spoiling. I feel like the issue with the movies is probably less "we had six parts to tell a story, and we completely decided to drop the ball around halfway in" and more "we had six parts to tell a complete story, planned them out, and then oops this actually made so loving much money we were told about halfway through that a sequel is going to happen, and we have to pull out closure and such so we can leave massive plot hooks for the next series". So something that was pretty well plotted and paced (the first two movies, arguably the third) suddenly needed to move some stuff that would be extremely important (any conclusion to Yggdrasil and stuff, the 02 kids, etc) to the next series, and then you're left with about a single movie's plot spread across three with no closure. I mean, I can in no way believe they brought back "Ken" with an updated design JUST to use him as a dude's random avatar, with no pay off to that. Especially while keeping all the 02 kids silhouetted at best, and carefully avoiding letting them have anything resembling a role in this. It almost feels like the 02 kids were meant to come into play later, along with Alphamon and such, but oops, we need to put that stuff in the next series instead, let's quietly keep them bottled up and such. You can kind of see it in how the infection story line is all but dropped as the third movie ends, but then literally all we have left is building up to "What is Meicoomon and what is her role?", with the answer being "She has to die". The fourth movie especially floundered due to lack of content, and the fifth movie tried to force everything onto a new path. The sixth movie mostly works, mainly because they managed to set up a big battle and a sacrifice and stuff in the movie before it, but it's barely linked to the first three. Mei and Meicoomon's plots were telegraphed as far back as the first loving movie, and that's more or less the only plot hook that carried this far. Now, of course, I could be completely wrong, this could be the entire series as originally plotted and all of this falling apart could be due entirely to terrible plotting and writing. Some of it, obviously, was. Certainly, even if they lost half their plot, the fourth movie could have done a lot better and worked with what it had. You had the Dark Masters right there and did nothing with them. Maybe the real ones are being saved for the next series, but that seems farfetched. Himekawa's plot is completely dropped and goes nowhere beyond a literal dead end, which I don't think is something they intended. That, again, feels like something that needed to be moved to the next series to fill plot. It just feels like this is a project where there was going to be a path, and then halfway through it got extended and they weren't able to compensate. I suppose we'll see when the next project releases, but I think they tried to salvage what they could. Also, honestly, I think Mei was fine. Yes, she was basically there literally to lose her partner super hard. That was an important part of the story they were trying to tell; the theme of losing a partner plays through all the movies, it was absolutely obvious Mei was going to have to face that. They were never going to do it to a main cast member, if only because everyone still clearly has their partner at the end of 02 (also marketing would never allow it). So Mei was made, she became part of the main cast pretty quickly, and honestly I feel like her break down at the end where Meicoomon's dying, she's alternating between crying and sobbing and smiling and falling apart, and they both know what's happening, was well done. It was well animated, she didn't go into that stoic "and this is what had to happen and we're ok with it" mode when they were talking about it. She loving broke down and sobbed during the goodbye. It was played as "this is what has to happen", but it was better than it could have been. Now, of course, I'm wondering what the sound post-credits was. Seemed like something from a Digivice toy. tl;dr: Seems like the series had a lot of material yanked out in the middle to be used later, it managed to end ok with what it had while obviously leaving MASSIVE plot hooks open for the sequel, and Mei was alright.
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May 7, 2018 23:30
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Nodosaur posted:Digimon partners die when their partners do This is a bullshit idea and I am incredibly happy it has never really come up ever. I feel like if nothing else, it's got to have been contradicted somewhere else in the series.
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May 28, 2018 22:31
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Nodosaur posted:It is, in the exact scene where Kakudoh says it supposedly happened. I meant somewhere other than that scene, since he's talking about it "clearly" happening there. I mean, whether or not it is (it isn't), I just feel like somewhere else has to be a scene where the Tamer or whatever dies, and the Digimon itself is just fine.
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May 29, 2018 04:09
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I'm not sure Super Digimon Wars would work too well, if only because of the sheer amount of sprites and poo poo you would have to draw to have a worthwhile roster. I guess you could use 3D models, but that never looks nearly as good.
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Jul 21, 2018 06:31
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