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![]() ![]() people seemed to enjoy this last week, so im gonna do it again! thisll be going for now to whenever I finish (an hour or two, only 16 submissions so shouldnt take that long) currently done https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YHHfCJ9G-otYLmiv3OnyAhFG4Hi2jls3oi6iVWwsnEM/edit?usp=sharing flerp fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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# ? Sep 1, 2024 03:09 |
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I had a test I was studying for this weekend. I'll finish my story by tonight and post it here to get my DM
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Pham Nuwen posted:Yo I hope you're not forgetting your promises just because you got a shiny new title... You're in luck, though, they forgot to close submissions. poo poo, thanks for reminding me! I'll get on them today at work!!
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Crit for Newtestleper's interprompt story, God Bless Us, Every One! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w09_anlPPBea7n2rID0vV3jTEkt7PRuSDE7uYg_eIak/edit?usp=sharing Overall I liked it, there's not much you can say about 250 words but basically: the idea is cute, you realized it thoroughly enough that it makes sense. You said on IRC that it might not be close enough to the prompt but I don't think it's far off. I'd cut out the two lines "abandoned kittens" and "brussels sprouts" because neither particularly make me think of Christmas, and then you get 4 more words to put wherever you like prior to submitting to the contest. Pham Nuwen fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Pham Nuwen posted:I'd cut out the two lines "abandoned kittens" and "brussels sprouts" because neither particularly make me think of Christmas wtf what heathen country are you from where brussels sprouts aren't the poison of the Christmas dinner table?
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HopperUK posted:wtf what heathen country are you from where brussels sprouts aren't the poison of the Christmas dinner table? It's lutefisk in my family, except we all kinda enjoy it anyway.
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Crits for Pham Nuwen and Guiness13 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VoK9CNegZvemdAwi_wWMZcu8LBLCTvjCBXEGdH7gKFk/edit I'm happy to take another look at your stories once you've edited them, too. We have heaps of time - subs close on November 16
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Obliterati posted:loving Memes you come in here, when im judging, and you write a god drat meme story, god loving damnit, idc if my other judges liked your stupid story about loving memebots or whatever, you deserve nothing else but the most slow and agonizing death while someone whispers lovely overplayed memes into your ear. Brawl me, memelord. ![]()
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![]() ![]() ![]() This was a fun week. There were several strong pieces and I even enjoyed reading a few of them - thank you for only making me want to throw up a couple of times. There were also more than a few common problems amongst several stories and I'll elaborate on the many ways you have disappointed me in a crit post in a couple of days - there's a lot to say. All in all, though, good stuff this week. Let's see how everybody did! Hanging out in a back-alley, smoking rollies, huffing paint from a can What dishonourable mentions? You were just too loveable. We couldn't do that to you. The judges felt there were no stories that warranted any dishonourable mentions so there are none this week. There is however, a loss, and it that goes to Cult Classic by anime was right. This had a lot of issues and was a very difficult piece to read. Leaping out a window, lip-stick mark on one cheek Our honourable mentions are The Tale of Shirin Who Was Not a Princess by theblunderbuss, which was a pretty and very well crafted piece, and the touching and witty Though throwing a treat into a ventilation shaft doesn’t work for Terry by crabrock (which had a stellar rogue to boot). Having saved the day, riding off into the sunset is everybody's favourite rogue Kaishai with Taking Notes. The writing is gorgeous, the setting is just great, the story is solid. All of the judges were very impressed. Thank you for a good week, everybody! Take it away, Kaishai!
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Thunderdome Week CLXIX: Thunderdome o' Bedlam![]() Knights of Ghosts and Shadows: Kaishai, Ironic Twist, and Schneider Heim. 'Tis the spooky season, Thunderdome, and truly I am filled with horror by my resumption of the throne. There's only one thing to do: ransack Satan's kitchen for a feast of souls. There's a folk song I love that goes by many names, among them "Tom O' Bedlam." Maybe you've heard it? No? That's fine! The lyrics of the myriad versions have been compiled for your convenience, and your prompt is to write a story inspired by one of the stanzas. Declare your choice of stanza when you sign up. Note that while many verses are on the dark side, horror is optional. Any mood that doesn't involve porn is welcome. "But Kaishai," you say, "I can't make up my mind. Will you do it for me?" Yes, you sweet indecisive summer child. The judges will select a verse for you if you ask. On the flip side, no flash rules--we'll hand those out strictly as punishments. Nonfiction, fanfiction, erotica, poetry, and GoogleDocs are forbidden. Sign-up deadline: Friday, October 30, 11:59pm USA Eastern Submission deadline: Sunday, November 1, 11:59pm USA Eastern Maximum word count: 1,313 All clear? Good! Welcome to Bedlam, varlets! Enjoy your stay! All on the spit a-turning: Broenheim Grizzled Patriarch: "If I Find Jack Nicholson Under the Ground" paranoid randroid: "Satan Diversifies" (Submitted after the deadline.) Thranguy: "No Takebacks" Sitting Here (Punitive flash rule: Your main character is a fig farmer): "Yielding Fruit" newtestleper: "Mile End" Djeser Jocoserious: "Under the Day Moon" C7ty1 Obliterati: "Liberté, Egalité, Baiserité" Pham Nuwen: "The Host of Fancies" Fuschia tude: "Uniform" HopperUK: "The Surly Bonds of Earth" SurreptitiousMuffin: "from atop the crown of stone" ZeBourgeoisie brotherly: "The Murder of Camper Lee" crabrock: "Piggie Steps" worlds_best_author Fumblemouse: "Corridor 6" Kaishai fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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in, give me a stanza
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Broenheim posted:in, give me a stanza The Gipsys, Snap and Pedro Are none of Tom's comradoes, The punk I scorn, and the cutpurse sworn And the roaring boy's bravadoes.
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In with: But I will find Bonny Maud, merry mad Maud And seek whate'er betides her Yet I will love beneath or above The dirty earth that hides her.
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newtestleper posted:Crits for Pham Nuwen and Guiness13 Thanks! And because Christmas is the time of giving, here's a crit for you and Pham Nuwen. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1edNtF4v3DE6zWaL_J380QnDsgH4eaU2mjpLe1nA6Jas/edit?usp=sharing
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In I went down to Satan's kitchen To break my fast one morning And there I got souls piping hot All on the spit a-turning.
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In, and stanza me.
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Thranguy posted:In, and stanza me. The spirits white as lightning Would on my travels guide me. The stars would shake and the moon would quake Whenever they espied me.
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Rogue Crits I’m mostly posting this so that I have this little intro post thing at the beginning somewhere in thunderdome. Ok, so a big issue I’ve seen, not just this week, but in general is that people end their stories terribly. Ok, so your story has to have a character, right? Like that should be a given, because like, that’s literally the point of stories is to reveal characters. That’s, hopefully, why you are writing a story. So you’ve got a character, but the key thing about a story is that your protagonist is dynamic, aka, he (or she, w/e) changes. Well, I forget who said this, but basically he said that a story has to have your character change or given the opportunity to change. A lot of times when I read thunderdome, you guys dont do this. One of the big issues I see with thunderdome, and this isn’t just for new people or people who land in the middle or the lower end of things, this is true for even the high end people, is that they write scenes. Not stories, scenes. It’s like opening to a random chapter in a book and reading that. Sure, it can be interesting and cool, but, at the end of it, there’s not going to be a conclusion because there’s still more that the writer wants to say. Look, I know you have low word counts, and it’s hard, but you still need to have stories with conclusions. And I deliberately use conclusions rather than endings because I define them differently. An ending is just that, an ending. It is “the end” and that’s all it is. A conclusion is an ending, but it’s more than just “the end,” it’s where things change, it’s where everything is wrapped up, and it’s where the decision (note that I say decision, not the moment that allows the change to occur, but the decision) to change or not change happens, also known as the climax. Note that this is in reference to flash because of how condensed these stories are, generally, your conclusion will be your climax. You don’t have time to do all that introduction, rising action, climax, falling action, resolution bullshit. Flash is like porn instead of real sex. It’s all rising action than climax, none of that foreplay before or that horrible awkwardness afterwards. So when I get to your ending of flash, i better see you loving finish. A lot of times, you don’t, you just kinda let your dick flop out, shrug to the camera, and it ends. I’m just gonna take an example of one of the stories this week, and talk about what I mean. I’ll use Arron and the Imp because I think this story has potential, but the ending was meh. It was mostly because while Arron was given an opportunity to change, it’s not clear what his decision is, if any. Sure, he saves the imp, but that’s not the real point of the story, not what that decision. The real decision Arron has to make is either become like his father and become the devil, or accept his empathy and reject that calling. In the ending that the story has, it’s not quite there. He lets her go, but then what. What does this mean for him? He hasn’t made his final decision, he hasn’t completely the story. But the important thing is that he has to make a decision. Take another example of a story that loving rocks, The Things They Carried by Tim O’Brien, because it opens up with this guy who leads a squad in vietnam who is totally utterly in love with this girl who doesn’t love him back. And one day, when he’s reminiscing about this girl, one of his squad members gets shot. So, he blames himself, and then he realizes that the girl doesn’t love him, and never will, and he gives up on his love for her. Then he becomes a hard rear end, where the only thing that he does is march because that’s what he’s supposed to do. Jesus, it’s a such a good loving story (seriously, read it if you haven’t), and it exemplifies exactly what I want from your guys’ stories. We have this dude who has a conflict, he loves this girl who doesn’t love him back, and he struggles with that internally. Then, because of that conflict, he gets somebody killed. Now, he’s given the opportunity to change. That’s the problem with so many stories in thunderdome, really. You don’t give them that opportunity to change. Ask yourself questions when you're writing your story. Why is this moment of your story so important? Why is it that this story is so important to tell? What does it means for your character? That’s the questions you should be asking yourself when you’re writing a story. Ask yourself - Does this event in the story threaten to change the course of my character’s life? The answer should always be yes in your story. And at the end of your story, you need to ask yourself - Did my character have a moment where he could change? The answer should always be yes. Then, ask yourself one more question - Did my character make a decision whether to change or not? When you answer yes to those questions, that’s when you have a conclusion, not an ending. Also judgemode and allllll that poo poo Arron and the Imp If you’re referring to God, the Christian singular God, then His pronouns are capitalized. Ok, let’s just start with some things I like. I like Lucifer having a son, I like how you paralled Arron’s getting tied up to Tina’s getting tied up, a nice reversal. Everything else works or doesn’t work to a varying degree. I’m not a big fan of the dialogue. Tina’s feels a bit too generic cool guy talking and Arron’s feels a bit too generic devil talking. The leap of Arron falling for Tina was sudden and doesn’t make any sense and the whole romance idea could’ve been easily cut. Just because there’s a guy and a girl doesn’t mean they have to fall in love. It would’ve been better if Tina acted more as a representation of the humanity inside of Arron rather than a generic love interest. I also feel like the second scene, and most of the dialogue, could be cut down. Then, you could’ve explored Arron more, make me sympathize with him and his situation. But the worst part is that this story doesn’t resolve anything. The ending is just Arron cuts off her ear and then Tina runs away, but I don’t feel like there’s any big change. Sure, Arron gains a little bit of sympathy, but there’s no big change. Based off of the beginning, that Arron already had some sympathy for the lost souls, what has changed? Is Arron going to kill Tina? Is Arron going to be kinder to the souls? I’m not sure. You had an extra 100 words to work with, or 400 if you’re counting Tina as your rogue (which I think you are), so an actual ending with 1) see that the character changes drastically from the beginning and 2) see the consequences of that change, this could story could work better. I’m not going to say it’ll HM with a better ending because Arron and Tina are pretty bland characters overall, buttttttttttt it would’ve been better. Low Middle. ”A Sprinkle of Love” That is the worst opening line in the world. 1) It’s overdone. 2) who cares. Seriously, who cares if it’s 1941 and it’s in New York. I should be able to notice that, if the date is important and the specific setting is important, these details through just your writing. This is completely and utterly useless because it does nothing. “but but but it establishes setting” gently caress off right there. you can easily establish through less terrible means. “there are big buildings.” “in Times Squares.” “in this gyro place.” whatever. there are a million better ways to do what you just did. so, um, next time do one of them. “Two detectives.” Jesus christ this is going to be the most generic story in the world. OMG YOU CANT BE SERIOUS IS THIS A REAL STORY IM READING? wait what, she’s known to steal diamonds but shes not in jail? WTF 3 years for stealing half a million worth of diamonds seems a bit ummmm, lenient? Ok, lol this story is so generic noir that there’s no point in critting this. What were you trying to do? What’s the point? All you have are a bunch of cliches with no uniqueness or anything interesting to it. It’s so generic and boring and I’ve felt like I read this a million times and I don’t even read noir. So, ummm, if you want to be a creative writer, maybe be creative? Ok, cool. Low, possible DM for being so utterly cliche, but idk, we’ll see this week. Give Him the Finger Cut your first paragraph. Then the next. Then another. Do it again. One last time. There you go, now you’re getting to the plot. Thanks for that. Scridiot, I love you man, but god, you need to be more creative. Almost every story of yours that I read feels like it’s curbed for things that you like, which is fine, but you have to make them unique. You fall into tropes without understanding that if your story is entirely filled with cliches, then your story is, yep, cliche. I’m of the personal belief that everyone can be a writer because every person is unique. Every person views things in a unique way that only you can express. The problem with your stories, I feel, is that you never do that. You never tell the story that’s inside of you. You never make me feel like I’m reading a story that only you could write. I mean, let’s look at this story in-depth and think about every little piece of it to try and determine what the hell went wrong. 1) You started in a bar, the most cliche place to ever start a story 2) Your dialogue is incredibly generic trying-to-be-cool dialogue that feels ripped from “edgy” comics and books that nerds absolutely adore because they want to feel that cool when they really aren’t. Also people don’t talk that way. 3) Your protag is a disgruntled war veteran. Cliche 4) Oldman is super generic with a generic tragic backstory. cliche 5) Protag doesn’t give a poo poo, also a cliche. 6) old guy’s racist for some reason. 7) “that’ll be double the payment.” i think, quite literally, that has been done a billion times. 8)the guy paying him was the bad guy the whole time!!!!!! cliche 9) ripping off of fullmetal (my name comes from that, ok, you’re not getting that one past me) 10) protagonist has a ~~~tragic backstory~~~ what a loving surprise. 11) betraying the guy again. yep, that’s a new one. Scridiot, I really, really, really, really, really, want you to write good. I mean, I want everyone to. And whenever I see you in the thread or IRC and hear you talk about writing, it always make me ![]() Anyways after all those kind words, time to slip into dick mode. DM, possible loss. The Tale of Shirin Who Was Not a Princess ok, uncle kinda owns. alright, im liking this after the first scene. characters are fun and interesting, esp. the thief who is always terrible and keeps getting caught because lol thats good. i think you made the same typo twice (shift instead of shirt). nvm on that typo i was informed that i am in fact an idiot, carry on. Ok, this story is cool. I liked the characters, all of them were fun to read about and they didn’t have obnoxious dialogue so good work there. there’s a lot of things I like. I like the bookend of Uncle, I like the character development of that, Shirin as a character is loving great. I was invested in this whole story because of character. So great work. HM or win. The Rake’s Progress ughhhhh this melodrama. “Too foppish. See you at the gallows, fop.” hahahahah got ‘em!!!!! gently caress that line owns so hard. that kid’s loving awesome. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO you’re punctuating dialogue wrong. the most grievous of sins! god damnit. read this http://litreactor.com/columns/talk-it-out-how-to-punctuate-dialogue-in-your-prose and get good at it, cause thatll make my life a lot nicer. bahhhhh, not a fan. idk, it seems like the whole story is leading up to an ending of him dying and then he dies and the end. i dont really see a change in character. like, what about that moment, besides, you know killing him, changed this character. there’s no difference emotionally between the beginning of the story and the end. he’s the same old dick from the beginning to end, so uhhhh, why should i care? Middle Cult Classic Oh, I hope this title is a cult pun! I’m not a big sci-fi fan (read: gently caress SCI-FI) but i like the idea of batteries being used to run everything instead of like, lithium crystals or whatever the gently caress people do in sci-fi that’s really dumb and made up. oh yeah also i have no idea wtf is happening in this story. like ok, the problem with sci-fi most of the time is that im not ever given context. like im just dropped into this world and im like wtf is going on? where am i? also, they generally forget character and im four paragraphs in and i have no idea who your character is besides “doesnt want to get his favorite cloak dirty” and “is rude to dead people.” So, the makings of a likable character! who caressssssssssssssss. i dont give a poo poo about haggling about energy wells or whatever the fuckkkk. who cares about population of cities. Wait, did you mean to write Crow instead of Mona then learned…? what? god damnit, am i going to have a long post at the beginning about loving endings this week because jesus christ, it feels like none of you have any clue what the gently caress you are doing when you get towards the end. just as a teaser, a conclusion isnt just “where the story ends,” it’s more then that. there needs to be some kind of change. i’ll explain in more detail once im done reading. Low Middle Gloria Tuesday and the obnoxiously long title Cool, conflict at the beginning, want a little more character, but w/e, it works. Bleh, middling spy fiction that does nothing to make its cliche feel unique or interest, bored the entire reading, another non-ending. Middle I Used to be an Adventurer Like You No, please no memes. esp. not these rly bad ones. NOT MEMEBOTS DEAR GOD PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. i want to die. why is 1.4k words! why is this any words????? theres to many memes dear god. “no time for banter” thank god one writer gets it, but why does it have to be the writer whose writing about MEMES. ok, though, “Early Tumblr” is actually a great joke not gonna lie. i… this… i… idk. this was dumb and stupid as gently caress and most of it was wasted a ton of horribly lovely jokes that werent funny in the slightest. BUT you actually had a conclusion unlike other stories so that might save you from a DM, or at least saves you from a loss in my books. actually, nah, gently caress your memes. never do this again, ok. thanks bud. DM or Loss. The Tower of Cortes God loving damnit GP (im assuming its you, if not, oh well). Jesus christ, every time it feels like you write something that loving owns, that im with you and then you just end. Christ. Ok, I actually wasnt that big of a fan of this story, but it was still good. I think the opening paragraph needs to start with Alonso to key us in that he’s the protag from the start. You can’t start intrigue (like wtf the maps are for) and then end your story without telling us why they are! that whole scene of Alonso being drunk doesnt really add anything to the story, well, i mean, thats because this isnt a story. its just a vignette. this feels like an opening to a story, where you’ve established character and conflict, but you dont go any further. Alonso has his doubts now, that’s his conflict, now resolve it. Please, do it for me. Your writing is drat good though, but that’s like saying water is wet for you GP. Actually, something I’d be interested in is seeing you do poetry sometime, since I love your words, it’s just the story elements that seem out of place. But, you know, just an idea. Ok wait, i misread this because dumb. It’s better, the ending is more conclusive, but I think the story’s too easy. Like, he realizes he’s conquering the city and then he’s like welp, time to erase the map. There’s nothing really standing in his way besides like this implied money but like, why does he need money? Like, there’s nothing in it for him to lose it feels like. He’s not making a hard choice, he’s making the easy, obvious choice so that’s kinda lame. I feel like this would be stronger if there was a stronger conflict, that he had the revelation and then he has like a dying sister or something that he wants so he had choose between his personal desires and his morality. The character’s decision is too easy and obvious. High middle. Taking Notes This wasn’t bad. I enjoyed the character, a simple story told well. It doesn’t quite hit the notes I want from the ending but it has hints of it. It needs a more impactful ending that you could’ve added in in 400 words. There’s a lot of good things in this though. The character in such a way that made her sympathetic and clever. I liked how your intro of the dice rolling thing came back and mattered in the story. Your character does smart things to outwit people. She’s flawed because she’s stealing poo poo, but sympathetic because gently caress that one dude. This works, just needs a better ending. High, possible HM. Though throwing a treat into a ventilation shaft doesn’t work for Terry Good opening line. Ok the voice isnt bad, but can, we, uhhh, you know get to the story? Cause yeah, cool, your character’s kinda funny but theres not much happening and hes not quite as funny as you think she is. Oh, i see, your pandering to me. my bad. dog stories best stories. the dog is p. good actually. ok i changed my mind this dog story loving owns. I think the last line is best being unstated. BUT, turns out, while i was iffy at the beginning, this story, does in fact, rule. You may have laid it on a bit thick, but I like how well you characterized the protag, who based on the beginning feels like she genuinely does hate the dog, but as it continues, there’s this sort of endearment that she has for this dog that she’s trying to hide, and while it couldve been done more subtly, it’s still a hell of a lot more nuanced then a lot of thunderdome stories. also, holy poo poo, that dog was loving awesome. like drat. great rear end story man. i think this trex, but i dont remember if he signed up this week. oh wait, hes dead i forgot. w/e, whoever did this, pro-tier dogging, great work. HM or Win, my win because dog. Chase in the Lisbon Hilton whooooooooo what is happening? she has a BMX in a hotel and shes doing ollies and poo poo? thats kinda rad. lol, of course she didnt think ahead, shes loving using a BMX to steal poo poo. god damnit. wth why do all the rogues have red hair? meh, this was like 1600 words of too many things that, when you add ‘em all together, add up to very little. Too time is spent on the action that the action starts being nothing because it no longer has any meaning. Middle. Theatrics aight, we get it, you like fights. this is kinda like dog story, what with the focus on voice, but the voice in that one was a bit more nuanced because, it was like an unreliable narrator of sorts, but in this one, it’s kinda like, not unreliable? theres no real nuance to it. why is there a paragraph on dresses? god damnit, another story ends where it should keep going. gently caress. big long post at the beginning will definitely be coming to explain why. The Adventures of a pirate who is 6 years old because lol thats funny right? Did chairchucker sign up this week? because this is prob. him. lol this owns. HM. Going Rogue get to the point. ok, dragon being the head of a bank = cool. then exposition on dragon logistics = not cool. ehhhh, wasnt feeling this. a lot of words for a lot of nothing. im supposed to care about the dad, i guess, but not really. hes not really even in the story so that’s kind of lame. theres kind of an actual ending though, so that’s good i guess. you have some kind of emotional change, but it could be more. Middle. Room Service you should probably do a scene shift between the hotel worker being knocked out because you shift PoVs (third-person limited of the hotel worker to third-person limited of Ecklund (well, kinda omniscient i guess, idk, still a bit jarring so a scene shift would help)). Action without any meaning. Again. Middle. flerp fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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in with a ![]() hit me with a verse also the judges are dumb and smell lol yeah i said it what are you even gonna do
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Didn't even get ranked. That's cold, bro. Cold.
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Sitting Here posted:in with a Go back on my decision not to give this to anyone, that's what: With a thought I took for Maudlin, And a cruse of cockle pottage, With a thing thus tall, Sky bless you all, I befell into this dotage.
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fact about this week's judges: they are bad but they think they're good. they're actually bad, though. figs to you judges
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Sitting Here posted:fact about this week's judges: they are bad but they think they're good. they're actually bad, though. Oh, fine. ![]() ![]()
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In The palsy plagues my pulses When I prig your pigs or pullen Your culvers take, or matchless make Your Chanticleer or sullen
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Hey guess what, this week ends one day after my deadline. And yes, I know the song. quote:The moon's my constant mistress,
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In. I'll bark against the Dog-Star I'll crow away the morning I'll chase the Moon till it be noon And I'll make her leave her horning.
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Since I'm no longer looking for basic things like shelter, I can move up the hierarchy of needs of 'trying not to write a terrible story' - that's how it works, right? In! By a knight of ghosts and shadows I summoned am to tourney Ten leagues beyond the wide world's end- Methinks it is no journey.
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And I was hoping for kitties and unicrons with this. gently caress it. ANIMEWASRIGHT THE DRAMATIC READING
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Broenheim posted:doubling down on poor judging u mad, Bro? ![]()
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Also: in, please assign me a verse
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Okay, I made that last one over KoL laughing at the guy editing all his poo poo out. However, Broenheim seems to have made a much better drama post to drama read! BROENHEIM SLAPS DOWN HIS DIGNITY E: Audiobrawled, eat a dick. StealthArcher fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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I AM PISSING MYSELF LAUGHING
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Obliterati posted:Also: in, please assign me a verse There I took a cauldron Where boiled ten thousand harlots. Though full of flame I drank the same To the health of all such varlets.
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I'm in, my verse is: With a host of furious fancies, Whereof I am commander, With a burning spear and a horse of air To the wilderness I wander.
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Obliterati posted:u mad, Bro? I don't care how this goes down or whoever is judging. You are both getting crits by me. In voice. If you fail to submit you get the YOLO420~ special crit.
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Week 168 Critiques You guys brought an action-packed week, but we judges agreed that most of the violence came at the expense of characterization. While reading, I also had the sense that many of you started late and simply ran out of time. Judging this week was pretty interesting; we had to really work for consensus on a number of these entries. Arron and the Imp The role of lovable rogue in this story feels like it belongs to Christina, not the protagonist -- not what I expected at first, but I can roll with it. Yours was the only one this week in which the antagonist was the sympathetic ne'er-do-well; though in an interesting inversion, Tina was, if not on God's side, at least attempting a reconciliation. As a result, she was the most interesting character in the story. Arron's role was less enticing. I don't know why he felt such a passion for her that he hallucinated embracing her and having sloppy hell make-outs in the penultimate scene. That scene felt unnatural. It had no real build-up. We all agreed that, while you did end up with a story, the development of Arron's character, his internal conflict, and that conflict's resolution was just anemic. You could have ditched that weird romance scene entirely and worked on developing the theme of Arron's redemption, or near redemption, instead. I'm not convinced that Arron bought Tina's argument, but I also wasn't convinced that he was enticed by her charms (or driven by some bestial true nature). Why change sides when he basically has everything? His father is the Great Satan, for hell's sake. The dialogue felt a bit stilted. Some of that is simply diction -- "inferiors" probably would have worked better than "lessers" (which sounds like "lessors," a totally different kettle of fish). Some of that awkwardness is just because so much of the dialogue was trite. Given that this story really leaned on dialogue to establish conflict, that is a serious weakness. This was a weak entry in terms of voice and development, which frustrated me. The central conflict is good, and hell is an innately excellent setting because torment and suffering are the lot of anyone who associates with a rogue. Ultimately, the story is forgettable because it goes nowhere. I'm not convinced that Arron is in any way changed. I don't care that Tina escaped because she seems to be a nobody who in the end will fail to bring about a change in hell. First one marked as a DM/loss candidate. A Sprinkle of Love Noir isn't really the term I'd use to describe this story. You gave us the other side of a hard-boiled detective story. Unluckily for you (and for me, as a reader), the entire thing was predictable and really didn't bring anything new to the table. In New York State, grand larceny in the 2nd degree (theft of property valued between $50k and <$1m) carries a pretty hefty sentence. I suppose she could have pled down to 3 years and given some lenience by the judge ~as a lady~, but I expected your detectives to be cannier after that initial exchange. Why did they just give up? Did they really show up without a warrant? I wasn't a fan of the perspective switch at the end. On a mechanical level, your punctuation was sloppy and you definitely didn't run this through a spellchecker. Try harder to proofread. If the story won't achieve anything beyond perfunctory levels of entertainment, you should at least manage to dot your i's and cross your t's more consistently than a high schooler. Another forgettable story. The central idea is too well-trod. You wrote a story, but too many other people have written this particular bad broad story before you. It just wasn't offensive enough for me to care to argue for a DM. Had this marked as a DM/loss candidate. Give Him the Finger One I disagreed with Broenheim about w/r/t placement. You got the benefit of having at least two judges with opposing tastes this week. (Let that be a note to the rest of you thieves and scoundrels if you feel the need to pander: I like sf/f.) Count yourself lucky, Scrid. I didn't realize this was yours while I read it -- I had you pegged for a different entry. This turned out to be a pretty pleasant, pulpy entry, with a cool take on mech combat that seems like it flowed out of a joke you were making in IRC a ways back. The dialogue is schlocky but it works. Let that be a lesson to you previous two entries: if you're going to write trite dialogue, make sure it has a good flow, give your characters some back and forth. You built "Finger" out of a lot of well cared for used parts; there's a patina of age here instead of a coating of rust. It works. Out of all the stories this week, this one is among the pieces that hewed most closely to the traditional short story structure we all studied in grade school lit classes. But the dialogue is still well-worn ground, and besides the role reversal of having the mercenary pilot be a foul-mouthed woman, it's ultimately a derivative work. You've got hints of an interesting post-war setting sort of floating around here, and of all the characters, I enjoyed Jock the most. You obviously understand plot and story structure. Now it's time for you to look at the material you're working on. You have to choose, and keep choosing each time you sit down to write, whether you're going to explore someone else's ideas or your own. This piece has the same weakness your food week entry. The Tale of Shirin Who Was Not a Princess I had this story down as a win/HM candidate. The weakness here crept in at two junctures. Why did Shirin think she could fool the prince with such a stupid ruse? Shirin seems young -- very young -- and while a child may make stupid mistakes, this magnitude of a stupid error from a street urchin doesn't quite work. The second was with Sitt -- I'm sort of surprised she even gave a poo poo, and was briefly disoriented by that. What was her role in al-Hasan's retinue? Did Sitt really try to use the same trick as Shirin? Has everyone lost her goddamned mind? But -- again -- this felt like it had a well-charted structure, the characters were interesting, and (most importantly) Shirin was quite loveable as the central scamp. You included some deft touches that I appreciate. The Rake's Progress The 2nd best part of this story is that the protagonist dies in the end. There. It had a shade of "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge." The real best part of the story is the kid. Otherwise, the story is serviceable and you bury a witty voice under purple, masturbatory inner dialogue. Please don't do that again. Mostly this protagonist was amusing because he had almost no insight into himself or his own situation and was laughably self-absorbed. This story goes in with the rest of the average entries for the week. Cult Classic We all had to re-read this one a few times to follow it. What "Cult Classic" did well was mimic a B-movie's structure -- weird poo poo came out of every corner to disorient the audience. The causal relationships between events in this story felt week. The experience was a disjointed one. This story actually has a number of interesting tableaux, which are another strength of cult classic media, but aren't enough to redeem the work. When I'm reading these entries, I'm looking at the plot structure. Not just beats, but the links between them: how does the inciting event lead into the rising action? How does that action peak? What happens in the climax? What are the consequences, how do they tie into the resolution? I was really prepared to dig into this one and enjoy. You gave us a sort of weird west/space western setting, which I can get into. It's definitely worth exploring. Once Crow starts off on her journey to Mona Manor, though, the "space" element evaporates and we're left in a post-apocalyptic wasteland of buffoons who worship an ancient sit-com straitjacketed by "least objectionable programming" theory. As a concept, it's cool, but all these cool concepts (power theft! space western setting! energy shortage! sitcom cultists! undercover cult infiltration! irritating talking toys! etc.) ended up jumbled together with no room to breathe. And that was why this story was disappointing. Nothing had room; the story runs headlong to its conclusion, squeaking "I RUB YOU!" at us in an asthmatic wheeze as it struggles to complete its promise within the allotted 1,600 words. I don't know if my response to this story was a "we hate the ones we love" or "we love the ones we hate" reaction; I wanted more from this, I didn't get it, I was scorned. Rewritten with more length for all the ideas to grow into, or maybe re-written at the same length with some ideas pruned, this story could be glorious. Gloria Tuesday and The Treasure of the Brass Kaiser's Airfortress Agreed with Broenheim that this was boring. Competently written, but like "Sprinkles" before it, nothing new happened here. Gender-swapping your spy fiction protagonist is just not enough. The ending flopped. Did you run out of time and energy? What happened here? You front loaded this with a dull society scene and had me thinking the Prince was actually a significant actor here. And why did you add some Red Baron rip-off antagonist at the end? Why did you let someone else make all of the decisions about how your suave action con woman fiction should work? I Used To Be An Adventurer Like You I rolled my eyes at the title, but to my great shame it grew on me as the story went on. Why did you decide to dangle this bait in TD, knowing the general goonish hatred for memes? What's the metatextual joke here? What the hell is wrong with you? What the hell is wrong with me? I had this as HM material. The boring part with the shooting drones was a let down. I'm glad it was resolved quickly so that we could get on with the actual story part of this story. I enjoyed it because I am an unrepentant sinner. Who is the lovable rogue: the cybernetic thief or the pop-cultural virus? Was this a crime caper or a romance with a dramatic meet cute in the first line? The dialogue and pacing were weirdly good given the stupid jokes. "My lover is an archaeologist: slow and patient and human, brushing back layers" is my favorite line in this entire week. That shitlord who wrote Ready Player One should look to this as an example of writing pop culture with a heavy reference ratio. The choice between the real Martin, the person who actually exists, who has made his peace with the establishment, the reformed researcher, versus the imaginary Martin, the illusion offered by the nanobots, the aggregate entity who values Cass for what she is, that is the conflict I didn't expect, and the one I most enjoyed this week. It was a surprise gem at the bottom of a circular file. There's a brief glimpse here at perception versus reality, at what love and friendship are and how they interact with the growth and change of the object of that love -- Martin changed, Cass can't accept it; Cass can't go straight, Martin can't accept it. The Tower of Cortés This felt unfinished. Lovely voice -- my uncontested favorite on that level by far -- but the story itself didn't grab me. Maybe it's because I'm the same kind of low level functionary as Alonso, but the resolution here feels, if you'll forgive the comparison, too much like any paper transaction. Something nominally changes, but nothing has been accomplished. A cartographer pushes a pencil. A cartographer erases some lines. Nothing has been prevented. War will come. The delay is meaningless; the act barely qualifies as sabotage. A pencil-pusher can do more damage. He could make a bigger statement. He could impose a greater obstacle. Alonso doesn't even come off as a rogue, which is quite the accomplishment for a conquistador. Did Alonso change? I don't think so. He didn't strike me as a true believer at the beginning of the story. Nothing about him seems to have changed at the conclusion. Beautifully written but weightless. A well-painted house of cards. Did you run out of steam? Taking Notes This story won by debate. We had a number of good entries this week and agreeing on a winner took some discussion. Everyone had different favorites this week. "Notes" wasn't my favorite, but it was also a strong contender. I enjoyed reading it and I didn't wind up feeling frustrated or misled. My expectations were well managed. That's probably a good lesson for most of us to learn: how to ration the reader's attention, how to fulfill the promises we've made. Both times I've come to support a Kai story for the win, and it's come down to story structure. This is how to write a lower case "f" fantasy tale without the sensation of trying to cram in too many disparate elements. Though throwing a treat into a ventilation shaft doesn’t work for Terry I didn't really care for the retrospective structure here. It feels uneconomical. You lose intimacy when using that perspective, it adds distance even though the perspective is first person. On the other hand, I enjoyed the international lady of murderin's voice here. That actually gave me a chuckle. The tone was consistent, which is important for a sort of jokey, sort of confessional piece -- it's a hard balance to strike. But I don't care about dogs, I don't think that dogs make assholes inherently lovable, and as a trope it's tired as hell. I wasn't over the moon at the "reveal" that murderlady loved her dog. That's expected. When you expect the development, the impact is mitigated. This revelation was so well-telegraphed that aliens are even now discussing the importance of dogs in permitting humans who inhabit different ethical paradigms to relate to each other. Where Broenheim was enchanted, I was alienated. Was this a love letter to Bro? Are you there, dog? It's me, RT. That's the level of exhausted territory being worked over here. Chase in the Lisbon Hilton Strange shades of the 1999 WTO protests in Seattle. Very little characterization of Frankie. I don't care about her character. I don't know precisely what she's protesting. Does she hate fancy hotels? Is she afraid of what men in suits are doing to her country? Is she concerned about anthropogenic climate change? Why does a big rear end banner with a peace sign soothe the savage breast? I feel a little weird, because I sympathize with an idealistic heroine, but I don't know until the end that she's just a kid with a dream that people will quit being dicks. It's a good dream, but her naivete isn't really developed as a theme here. Part of me thinks this was supposed to be a little over the top, a little goofy, and I should just go with the resolution and the sudden pool party, but the delivery doesn't work, and I'm left unconvinced. Maybe a little more interaction between her desires and others' (besides her desire to show off sweet rear end bike tricks), or just a little more character interaction in general, would bring this whole thing in line. Is this the second or third roguish redhead? Bro noticed this, too. Redheads as rule-breakers, defiers of authority, etc. seem to be A Thing, but it's not damning. Just interesting to note. Theatrics Arson fairy is only tolerable, not lovable. Manic internal dialogue doesn't make a character lovable. Too much space is wasted on drivel. The character's weird fetish for startin' poo poo is the most promising start of this story, but she doesn't change and the story ends before we see her face consequences for her stupid decision to commit arson. The Adventures of Nobeard the Pirate, Age 6 I guess I have to add another element to the list of things that don't work for me: children. I don't find them automatically hilarious. The humor didn't work for me, and without that, the piece didn't work as a story. I did crack a smile, maybe, at the parrot in the very end. What happened? What changed? Little kid wanders off, comes home with a parrot, the end. I actually expected the mother to play a bigger role here, so I was a bit surprised when the cap'n was handed off to his sister. Sister was kind of interesting, but it was more of a situational interest -- her attitude about the cap'n's (gently caress apostrophes) little adventure was probably the best part. When she eschews responsibility for his shenanigans at the end in a kind of not my monkey, not my circus surrender, that's the strongest "kind of interesting" bit. It looks like a little rebellion against the brother's keeper role, a kind of initial boundary setting between being a child and being an adult. The word economy -- the diction -- is admirable, though. Going Rogue One thing I appreciate about this week is that Morning Bell gave a bunch of you an incentive to write female characters. One thing I dislike about this week is that "rogue" got everyone laser-focused on situations and some of you forgot to flesh out what was happening with various characters. I thought this story was going to be about a debt collector's interactions with the real scum of society. That's not how things go, though. Tamsin's father actually turns out to be central to the conflict, but he never shows up and I haven't the foggiest idea of what the hell the dragon is going on about at the end. What has Tamsin done that's so remarkable? Did she chain her father to the radiator so he couldn't gamble away their money anymore, so that hopefully someday soon, she could be liberated from his all-consuming debt? I feel like I've missed something, but I didn't find it after a re-read. The reveal was actually pretty neat, and I also appreciate the draconic financial logistics here, but that whole monologue sucked the tension out of the story. When Tamsin burns an un-burnable dossier, it's just a kind of "what the poo poo?" moment. Were the torches dragon fire? That seems to be the implication. But why would Tamsin burn the file under Mr. Scarborough's watchful eye instead of just disappearing the paper? Room Service Kind of surprised you had something like three perspective changes here, Mr. Seafood. This one was the ultimate extreme on high action, low characterization. None of the rogues were lovable. What are these people even trying to merc each other for, and why do I care? POOL IS CLOSED fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Oct 27, 2015 |
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OBLITERATI-BROENHEIM MEME BRAWL Prompt: Make a story out of this: ![]() ...and a meme of your choice. Word limit: 2000 Deadline: 2359 EST Tuesday, Nov. 10 No: Fanfic, nonfic, erotica
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What I Did During Week 168 by M. Bell (age 9). This week was good! It also had lots of one-dimensional characters and pointless action, which was not good. Regarding the former, there’s a post in Fiction Advice by Dr. Kloctopussy that would help a lot of authors: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3495955&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=161#post451883035 Regarding action - a lot of it felt meaningless. Action scenes have no tension if we don’t care about the stakes. If someone is fighting a mob boss or escaping a wizard, I want to know what's a stake and I want to care about what happens if they succeed or fail. Even if the action is super clever and everybody yells witty zingers, that’s not enough. if I don’t give a poo poo, it’ll leave me flat. This happened a bit this week. As RedTonic said, judging was interesting. We all liked this week but there wasn’t that much consensus about our winners and HMs. The other judges hit a lot of excellent points in their crit posts. My notes for each story are below. Arron and the Imp The dialogue is super cliche. Arron speaks like a bad B-movie villain. I like that this story doesn’t waste many words on description. Paragraphs are sparse and concentrate on the characters. However, the settings details that are present are very generic and don’t give me a good feel for the setting. Sparse details is good but they’d work better if they were specific and creative. What’s the motivation for the imp? Why is she doing this? Why is there love? That’s a major failing of the story. Arron’s conflicted feelings about the imp are good and Lucifer-dad is good but this could’ve been so much more. This did have a certain charm, too. Fun, though. Low / Middle pile. A Sprinke of Love Immediately, there’s movie-itis (You don’t have to tell us every action characters perform - lines like "they left the car and went in the building" are unnecessary). Bad start. Cut everything before “Detective Stark, what a pleasant…” and it’s so much stronger. Exposition through dialogue feels a bit forced, too. But I like the dialogue, other than that. Each person has distinct voice. This is pleasant enough to read and I’m along with it but it’s all very straight and not really interesting, at the end. When I turned off judgemode, I recognised you from the falafel story from food week. Thank you for entering again! Your writing is much cleaner in this piece, but the ideas just aren't there. Low / Middle pile Give Him The Finger I don’t personally like this genre and style, so take my words with a grain of salt. I’ll try to be objective. The rogue too over-the-top at times, although she’s interesting enough for what you’re doing (props for that). The mech is probably good too, if you’re into that sort of thing. Some of the jokes… uhhh, please don’t do this. We’re not children. This is too wacky. Needs to be toned way down. To be a massive dick for a second - much of this story reads like "nerd edgy-humour" stuff, and many parts are juvenile and irritating (although there are some good lines here and there, too). Half-way through I expected this story to bore me to death but the husband-reveal, and the ending, added a much-needed dimension. Objectively-speaking, this is probably middle-of-the-road OK stuff (subjectively-speaking this is a bouquet of tropes that I do not dig). Some of the details were great (I know people who roll cigarettes from the pocket remains of cigarettes) and some were cringe-worthy. One judge had it for a DM candidate and the other for an HM (I think?), and I was satisfied to see it flop around in the swampy middle pile. Bro’s advice about ~being true to yourself~ is sweet and probably spot on. I don’t know you very well, but it did feel like you were trying very hard to write what you think a cool story should be like? I know every time I’ve done that in the Dome (which is a lot), I've ended up flopping hard. I’d love to see you forget tropes and cliches and just write about something you really give a poo poo and care about. Turn off your TV. Bleed all over that keyboard (metaphorically). A very swampy middle pile. Couldn't be more middle if it tried. The Tale of Shirin Who Was Not A Princess Very competent. I like this. Good setting, character, writing. Good start. The thing is, nothing touches me in the heart or really makes me feel this. It’s all nice and well-done but this story doesn’t make me care super much. Shirin’s ruse felt a bit unrealistic - did she really think that’d work? Anyway, maybe the tension is off or there was a fly buzzing around while I read this. It didn’t really hit me, but I think that’s subjective. This is legitimately pretty good. Other judges liked it more. HM candidate. The Rake’s Progress Prose is too flowery. This works in bits (Hopeless fool! Miserable romantic!) but the whole way through - it’s irritating. Does the protagonist really think like this, all the time? Does anyone? I really like the foppishness of the protagonist - mirror basin razor, nice touch. He’s definitely a rogue, and not that loveable, but I really like that - he’s got thorns. “Too foppish. See you at the gallows, fop” is probably line of the week, too. This over-explains and does not trust the reader. This is a huge problem. For example: It was a reminder of the world outside, so long denied to me and soon to be forever lost. Cut that sentence. Re-read that paragraph. It's much stronger now. Let the reader work things out. I didn't like the ending - boring. Middle Low Pile. Cult Classic This is really not good. I don’t like the writing here. It's confusing. I literally have to re-read paragraphs. Please read your story out loud before submitting. This piece communicates with the reader very poorly and was a massive chore to get through. There is genre stuff but I have no feel or image of the setting. I’m not there - there’s just strange words on a page and I'm struggling to follow them. No evocative details, just sloppy strew. I cannot imagine or feel anything. I’m drowning in word-soup. I have no sense of Crow, I don’t care, I’m not invested. The whole thing is very one-dimensional, and this is killer for a prompt like this. Sorry, mate - in a weaker week, this probably wouldn’t have lost, because it's not an abomination or anything, but this was clearly the worst story of the lot during a strong week. Low pile, DM/loss candidate. Gloria Tuesday and the etc etc First impression: clumsy sentences. They’re too long and full of bad exposition. Before submitting a story, please read it out loud - that helps catch stuff like the word-porridge in the opening paragraph (and in a lot of others). A lot of these bloated sentences are a chore to read, too. Much less detail, sprinkled in the right places, would fix issue. The setting is cool. The Brass Kaiser, Gem of the East. Gloria Tuesday. Evocative names. Last line was a nice touch, too. There’s too much setting though! Cut poo poo out and make me care about Gloria. Give us something more than just a one-dimensional action hero. Fun, good feel. One-dimensional character can’t carry a flash fiction piece. Take an axe to this and add some depth, and this could be great. Middle pile. Could really dance with heavy editing. I Used to Be An Adventurer Like You Are you loving serious? The character has a strong, engaging voice. Her relationship with Martin, her motivations, feelings, desperation, are all very well executed. This piece hooked me from the beginning and kept me hooked to the end. This is a good story. The bit where the protag was getting shot at was weak, though. It’s the relationship between Martin and her that makes this sing. gently caress you. This was great. Two of the judges would have probably been OK with a win for this. HM Tower of Cortes Starting with focus on the non-POV character jolts the reader a bit. Oh gently caress, this writing is so pretty. I read this three times in a row. The end came on too sudden. The decision to erase the map was a bit easy. Somewhat of a letdown. Even so, for me this is a strong HM / win candidate Taking Notes Good writing! And there she was with the smell of the dorm smoke clinging to her brassy hair, which needed a trim. Ah, well. I dig this. This is pretty and competent writing and a neat setting. The call-back to the game at the start is very well done. It’s fun without being wacky or silly. The story and the plot is a little by-the-numbers, though. It’s still a solid entry, but I don't think this was anyone's first choice for a win. This took the week by consensus. It’s a hard one to fault, but it was a bit straight for me. HM/win candidate Though throwing a treat into a ventilation shaft doesn’t work for Terry is a title I really like. I laughed out loud several times. Good end. Touching. Good writing. I love this rogue. This rogue is a real rogue. Here’s my issue with this piece: most of it happens as recollections. Kinda feels like it’s perfect-past tense instead of past, you know? So that takes a lot of oomph and drama out of it. When the three men attack, for example, there’s not much tension because it’s the protag recollecting everything. This deflates your baloon. Legitimately touching. HM candidate. Chase in the Lisbon Hilton Too much action at the start. I only start to care about the story when we find out about the banner and her Estonian friend (and not a great deal - it’s not that engaging). I need to know what’s at stake to care about action sequences. I don’t mind this but it needed so much less action and so much more depth. Like, this reads like a first draft except the writing style has been cleaned up and polished a bit. Sure, you've got these words, you know what happens and what the story is about. Sure, doing BMX stunts and protesting with banners is pretty neat. Now, if this was re-written from scratch to have way more attention on the people and their relationships and the protest and its implications - and way less attention on BMX stunts - you could have something that really glows. Please check out my notes for Going Rogue by Fumblemouse - they apply to this story, too. Middle. Theatrics Again, a story that starts with action. I won’t care about action without context. However, I like the voice of the protag. Endearing. So I care a little. Goes full-bore with the character voice, which I respect. Other stories this week trump this one because it’s a tad one-dimensional, still. Our protagonist is so awesome and there’s awesome action - and that’s actually not interesting at all. Her take on the world is actually interesting, though, so the story held together by her voice and her thoughts, which are really cool and fresh and I like it - but nothing really changes from beginning to end. I'd flag it for an HM if it had depth. There’s a lot of ‘telling’, but I think it’s appropriate for the story, sure. High Middle Captain Nobeard and the best story title this week I’m grinning while I read this. This is great. Writing is solid. Wonderful economy of words. The Captain sure has an adventure! The thing is, if this kid stuff doesn’t work for you, there’s not a great deal to go on. We’re home safe and the world hasn’t really changed. Still, for me, strong HM / Win candidate Going Rogue Writing is competent enough, setting’s well-done too, but this didn’t do it for me. The dragon bit is neat. I think you found the real interesting part of the story at the very end - her father (who we don’t even see). Again, this is one of those times (like with newtestleper’s story, as well) where you write a piece, and the piece is passable and there’s nice details and some bunting and lacey curtains and whatnot - but then you realise you’ve glossed over the real interesting bits while concentrating on the window dressing (I say this because I do this a lot in my own writing, except without the “real interesting bit” part). The nugget, the core of the story that can really makes this sing, would be the stuff about Tamsyn’s father. So a re-write of this, putting that bit in focus, would've been great. Middle. Room Service Snappy writing and cool action. That doesn't do it for me, unfortunately. This was a last-minute sub and I’m impressed that it doesn’t show with your writing style, actually - I wouldn’t call this rushed or anything. It’s nice and crispy. I know you were worried about the action. The action in this piece is very good. The problem is there’s not enough context behind it to make the reader care. The characters are evocative and the rogue is witty and it’s a well-done piece, but without knowing and caring more about what’s at stake, without more depth, even good action writing is going to leave the reader flat. Middle Hey alright thank you for a nice week! Morning Bell fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Oct 28, 2015 |
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# ? Sep 1, 2024 03:09 |
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In, hie to me a verse
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