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I can understand why Americans would have national pride. 1) largest economy in the world...for now 2) strongest military 3) win most of their wars 4) most successful democracy 5) biggest energy producer 6) only superpower in the world 7) us dollar world standard currency 8) generally world leader in everything (UN, g8, g12 etc summits) 9) best entertainment industry, we feed the rest of the world our movies and culture (music, movies, food etc) 10) borders are protected by 2 oceans and 2 non threatening neighbors (canada and mexico). Other countries have to worry about defense much more 11) large area of farmable land through center of the continent they pretty much have the best of everything. Their young so their list of attrocities are fairly minor and in general their actions are with good intent. I would much rather have America the super power than any other country the super power. disclaimer..i was born in Poland, moved to the US at age 9. Most of my family still lives in Poland so while Im not completely impartial towards the US I have been mostly assimilated
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Jan 17, 2015 16:14
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namesake posted:Clearing a continent of its original inhabitants: a fairly minor atrocity apparently. We should all walk around embarrassed because our homo sapien/erectus ancestors killed off an ENTIRE SPECIES of humans called neanderthalls. Neanderthalls were at the same technological level as us (basic stone tools) until roughly 75k years ago? If u dont wake up crying every morning you are a horrible human being The expansion of any civilization has always come at the cost of the indigneous people and thru war. So yes, minor atrocity. Slavery was a worse thing and it still doesnt dampen americans nationalism. Efforts are made to apologize and compensate the people for those things which is worth something on the balance scale.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:00
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waitwhatno posted:We Europeans are classy, dignified and discrete about our pride. American nationalism is like the nouveau riche. Tacky, overblown, overconfident. Americans tend to be fat because they overeat. And all the health problems that come with that. But overall when i visit my european family i see many more health issues around the dinner table than i do walking thru walmart in america. And everyone knows the stereotype of bad teeth of europeans compared to americans (think austin powers) Not to mention that healthcare is sinking most economies around the world. Youll have to do better than health care to sink american nationalism. Especially post obama care
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Jan 17, 2015 18:04
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Things we didn't miss: Dresden, Hiroshima. What about dresden? Hiroshima was a major success story. 1) overall lowered casualties for both sides had the war dragged on conventionally. America attacked at pearl harbor had no obligation to play fair at the game of war. 2) with american influence japan, korea, germany all nations we were involved in militarily grew to be the dominant economies around the world. Youll have to try harder to bash america unfortunately. Focus more on guantanimo, torture, unprovoked war with iraq, nsa spying or something.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:10
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ekuNNN posted:Hahaha Show me a more succesful democracy and Ill show you how your wrong. I know its cool, hip to poo poo talk America. But your really on the losing team in that argument. Feel free to point out what America has done wrong but by most measures they are #1
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Jan 17, 2015 18:18
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Coohoolin posted:You might be able to make this argument if Americans didn't go around whooping about how good they were at killing Native Americans and openly mocking them at Halloween. What kind of crazy talk is this? Americans whoop about how good they are about killing native americans? I havent seen "indian" costimes mocking native americans for halloween. The only time i see indian costumes is in old movies. All i see is costumes for whatever cartoons are popular that year. If i ever see an indian outfit with my eyes it probably will be about as mocking of native americans as toga parties are of ancient greeks/romans. Your trying so hard i can see that but not good enough
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Jan 17, 2015 18:23
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Agnosticnixie posted:
You mean the germany which was economically poverty stricken by war reparations from ww1? And japan at the end of ww2 was also economically devastated and if america hadnt stepped in would not be what it is now. Also south korea success story.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:26
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Gentleman Baller posted:What do you mean most successful democracy? Are there countries without democracies that are more successful than the U.S. Or do the U.S. Government representatives represent its citizens values and voting intentions more than other democracies or something? Well besides america being #1 by most measurements. Or if not #1 then very high up there. So not only are they the most successful democracy their also most successful of any type of government/economy When i say most successful democracy i mean if you stacked all pros vs all cons. Whatever measurements we use keep in mind the US shoulders the burden of generally maintaining world peace. So much so that europe has almost completely dismantled their own militaries. Their able to pocket the gdp savings and use them for social services. Which has made europe the most peaceful its been since ww2. They have done this with full confidence in America protecting them from Russia who otherwise would easily swept thru. Amrica has missteped with its military might. But overall the whole world trusts them to act responsibly and to protect everyone to the point where almost all militaries have been mostly dismantled. Now china is rising and will overtake america(or maybe it will flounder under corruption and old people retiring bubble with environmental problems). And china is building a military. Thats a country that people dont trust so asian countries are building back up. But overall i would point to the overall peace in the world compared to all of human history and i would mostly attribute that to americas success as a democracy/military that people trust
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Jan 17, 2015 18:49
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waitwhatno posted:
Are you saying japan declared surrender and we ignored them to drop the bomb anyways? No doubt losing mainland troops was a big blow. But once we started making cities disapear completely is when we got the official surrender.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:28
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Agnosticnixie posted:By the time the second bomb hit the japanese government still didn't know what, exactly, had hit them in Hiroshima. Your fourth point doesn't remotely describe the Kwantung army, and the marines being fuckups has a lot to do with the island hopping campaigns. Okinawa wasn't a show of patriotism, it was a second class population being treated like second class by the IJA; had the Marines been in charge of taking Hokkaido, I wouldn't be surprised to read history books relating that the IJA higher ups decided finishing up the Ainu genocide was a better use of the troops than fighting the US once the battle was obviously lost. Germany did pay reparations but wasnt keeping up, couldnt keep up. And yes it was a national embarrasment for germany By the time japan got hit by the second bomb they didnt know what hit them? Well yes they didnt have the scientific knowledge. But we did demonstrate the bomb to them. But by the 2nd bomb they knew whatever this thing was was beyond their ability to fight so surrendered
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Jan 17, 2015 19:32
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Satsuki Kiryuin posted:We nuked Japan as a political statement against the Soviet Union, considering they had just wiped out an army we would have second thoughts about going after with minimal losses. Im sure there can be many reasons to drop a nuke. But im going to take things at face value. Before nuke explosion. Japan no surrender. After 2× nuke explosions japan surrender. US military said they used nukes to end the war quick and save american lives which it did both.
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Jan 17, 2015 23:32
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ekuNNN posted:What measurements do you mean? McDonald's per capita? Number of children killed by drone? Number of medical bankruptcies? Political contributions by multinational corporations? People incarcerated? Percentage of GDP spent on the military? Oh theres all kinds of things american is not #1 at. Education, life expectancy. U can pull out all kinds of graphs and adjust for factors of this or that. But #1 gdp #1 military many times over #1 technological scientific progress #1 energy producer in the world world reserve currency in usd That sweden or singapore or someplace with 10 million population has better income per capita or whatever pales in comparison. If they dont get derailed by internal problems china could take over as #1 dominant country in the world. But until they do theres a clear #1 and that is america. The world trusts them to weild the biggest military without feeling the need to build armies to defend themselves. And trust america to keep the overall world peace. Thats says A LOT. Lay whatever criticisms you want against the US. Even if you hate america to deny their #1 is foolish.
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Jan 17, 2015 23:47
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enraged_camel posted:Which doesn't mean much since the non-Hispanic whites made up only 63% of the US population as a whole in 2012 and that number is declining rapidly. How rapidly is that?
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Jan 17, 2015 23:48
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computer parts posted:They'll be a minority in about 35 years (or Hispanics will be a majority, I forget which). I knew that was the trend. The more education/income people have the less they can be bothered by having children. Theyll say its because of overpopulation, for earth or the economy isnt right. But really its because they care more about their careers and enjoying their lifestyle. Not realizing raising the next generation is the highest calling we have as humans. And career, hobbies, friends are supplimental. Not that it matters if whites are in the majority, majority minority or just minority. Its all skin deep. Theres less genetic difference between asians and tribesman in the congo then there are between chimpanzees of the same clan. On a long enough timeline all humans mix together and u end up with brownish everyone. What matters more is the culture. And hispanics who become successful end up in same position as whites now. In terms of influence, how they view the world, how many children they want. So theres always a upward migration of people from low income/education with lots of babies to high no babies just adopt.
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Jan 18, 2015 00:39
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DarkCrawler posted:Yep. I'm proud of my country because of what it is at the moment, not because of what it has achieved in the past. Free education, healthcare, high HDI, etc. socialism is pretty great. Because they helped stave off russian expansion influence after ww2. Russia collapsed competing in the cold war. Which helped free my country(poland), all of eastern europe, germany from a longer or indefinite control by russia. Without america becoming what it did after ww2 russia would have dominated everything. Space race, nuclear arsenal, concentional military. They crushed nazies and japan not single handedly...but almost. After ww2 they could have kept going. I know my family and friends in poland are very pro American and very grateful for what America has done for the world. Even though America isnt perfect. When you need them their there. Sometimes when you dont need them too but almost always with good intentions. I am thankful for what they did for korea, japan, germany after the wars. Im grateful the example they have set for the rest of the world in terms of promoting democracy even when sometimes its not wanted. Theyve made the world a more peaceful place by weilding the biggest military in the world in such a way that other countries feel secure having a token military. Whatever america becomes in the future or gets overtaken by china later. The world was economically, militarily, democracy, corruption wise better off during their reign. I know its really cool to pretend america is some overhyped hypocritical country. The same way thomas jefferson wasnt a great man because he had slaves. That kind of lofty high horse attitude is common for internet warriors. But from where im standing in the mud america is a beacon of good(even with all its pimples and warts) When i look at russia, china, india the next runner up domimant, future dominant potentials I shudder. They will not weild the cudgel nearly as softly. All 3 have terrible crony, corruption, human rights abuses. And thats from a weak position in the world rankings/influence. Wait until they weild the biggest sticks and see what tune they want everyone to dance to davidb fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 00:55
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Amused to Death posted:America is just the developed nation with the most people in it and you can't stop dickwaving about it What a naive view. Well see how well things go for the world when the torch gets passed to china. The european union has more people and according to the internet warriors on this forum is the yardstick by which to measure the things that matter. So how effective has europe been at handling the real problems of the world? They cant agree to do poo poo. Not even to stop blatant aggression by russia when its repeating hitlers conquest playbook like they didnt learn from 60 years ago. Wheres europes military when you need it? Non existent because its easier to let america do all the dirty work while europeans drink their win/beer and judge from the safety of their computers how it should be done better. But you are right, they are the most developed, with the most population, with biggest military. But where you list those things with derision. I look at that list with respect. Because being big, and developed, and the most powerful and remaining benign is difficult. Which is why theres no one else to compare to. Russia failed on multiple fronts china is rushing to meet america and might surpass them. Or they might falter at the finish line. Yes becoming the best, staying the best is not easy. And until another nation shows how to do it better america gets my respect. Oh and by the way. This isnt my dick to be waiving. Im not a natural american. I can never become president. But my kids can. Im just not naive like you to try ignore whats obvious. If america is not #1 in the world then who is? And dont say no one. Thats like giving everyone trophies for children competitions. There are winners and there are losers. America is a winner. And they make the rest of the world feel safe
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Jan 18, 2015 01:09
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Amused to Death posted:Well, where's America's military when Ukraine and Georgia need it? Ill concede America didnt send their military into ukraine either. America has been dragging Europe kicking and screaming to do whats been done so far in terms of sanctions. Otherwise that wouldnt have been done either. So there is at least that. And of the group of them, any of the European nations has the most to gain, the highest responsibility to defend against Russian aggressian. The fact that America had to step in to do anything is embarrassing. A Buttery Pastry posted:While that is true, it's kinda outshone by Australia and Canada managing to be more attractive to more hypothetical immigrants than live in either country, where the US doesn't even crack 50%. Yes, the US often wins in country vs. country comparisons, but it's mostly sheer numbers making up for middling averages. and yet most still find their way to America. Its not just sheer numbers. Hypothetically an immigrant may move somewhere else. In reality the highest percentage move to America. And their welcome too. The immigrants I have met tend to be the hardest working, the type of mentality that will have someone abandon most of their belongings to start a life in a foreign land tends to be the most motivated sort.
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Jan 18, 2015 01:44
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ekuNNN posted:Hahaha ouch, you got me. good one. Since were being childish 
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Jan 18, 2015 01:46
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Disinterested posted:It's decidedly against the immediate fiscal interests of France and Germany to oppose Russian aggression, likewise for the UK. We're all tied heavily to Russian economic interests. Really, clamping down on Russia is a net loss for us, and other Europeans too. It's still worth it, but talking about it from the point of view of 'gain' is ridiculous. that right there is whats wrong with stupid europeans. blah blah blah well lose money..... even though we know we really should stop russia because its worth it. if its worth it then America shouldnt have to drag europe kicking and screaming to do the right thing for their own benefit. Disinterested posted:You need a certain amount of money down to get the gear to fight a war on another continent semi-independently, something only France and the UK have shown capability to do in recent times. But yes, the idea that Europe is a continent of military minnows is misleading. It's just not mobilised towards potential multi-continental major conflict at all times. if its misleading then I guess If russia rolls through europe with Tanks theyll be able to defend themselves from their next door neighbor.....their prepared for that threat right? Or is the expectation that America will come to the rescue? loving american scum
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Jan 18, 2015 16:02
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waitwhatno posted:You should have let Iraq manage its own affairs. You should not have let Lydia manage her own affairs. yeah because its really easy to know when to let countries destroy themselves and when not. Syria, lybia, egypt, Georgia, ukraine, every little thing in africa, every big thing in the middle east. theres people on both sides of the aisle demanding action inaction. Whatever you do will get picked apart to death about how you did it wrong, should have done it from couch generals with hindsight 20/20 Frankly the US should just let the world fend for itself and only use its military to keep the Big players china/russia from getting out of hand cold war style
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Jan 18, 2015 16:09
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Mornacale posted:America isn't even a democracy itself, let alone some sort of force for spreading democracy around the world. So germany, japan, south korea being democracys with the some of the best economies in the world doesnt count? I mean its only been less than 50 years since those success stories...whats america done RECENTLY am i right? Oh and throw in polands democracy which wouldnt exist if russia handnt collapsed competing with america. But BESIDES that what have they done recently. I mean, i guess besides founding israel democracy in middle east, and iraq democracy. Those dont count....what are they REALLY doing to spread democracy around the world...those american scum
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Jan 18, 2015 17:56
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nopantsjack posted:People really see the world as a videogame where Russia wants the World Domination victory condition. Its a pretty far cry from Russia snapping up parts of its old terroritory with Russians in and them conquering the whole of Europe for no reason. No. Russia doesnt conquer europe for no reason. They conquer all their former territories for the reason of being russia and russians live there. Just like hitler bit off peices of czehoslovakia and austria because germans lived there. And europe had the same response then. Fear of getting hands dirty and not enough benefit to stopping hitler. It doesnt matter if some european countries have nukes. Russia had many nukes. Nuclear countries can go to war without using nukes. You just take the nationality markings off the uniforms and pretend you dont know where those russian speaking soldiers came from What domination moves has america made? Their pulling out of everywhere, afghanistan, iraq, europe even as all locations ask for them to stay behind closed doors...and publicly demanding their departure. Hardly the behaviour of a conqueror. Russia and china...full blown territory grabs
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Jan 18, 2015 18:17
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Ytlaya posted:Since our actions in Iraq have had such a great result and Israel is such a bastion of moral righteousness (lol). I know its hip to bash israel just like its cool to bash america. Im pretty sure if you lived in israel where the muslim countries around you were attacking you constantly you would retaliate too in such a way that sometimes internet gurus like yourself could criticise. Israel is a great country, not perfect, but great Yes russia did the majority of the lifting in ww2. But americas influence kept russia from steamrolling as far as they felt like. And russia wasnt responsible for the formation of israel.
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Jan 18, 2015 18:23
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:Did you seriously just use Israel and Iraq, one of which uses bantustans to deny millions of people the vote and the other of which is currently collapsing due to its refusal to do anything but shuffle the deck chairs as their ship sinks because of the threat of ISIS, as examples of functioning democracies? Israel and iraq are democracries. Thanks to america. Those countries are on the list. Along with other countries america has helped establish a democracy. All the countries on the list have varying degrees of democratic success. Im putting israel as an overall resounding success even if not perfect. Iraq is a troubled nation with many problems. Its too soon to say how iraq will pan out. But if they end up with anything less than the dictator they had before and the democracy we hoped for them then it will have been another example of america spreading democracy. That was afterall the context focul point of those comments. Someone laughed at the notion that america was spreading democracy
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Jan 18, 2015 18:29
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the boston bomber posted:The more powerful your country, the more ashamed you should probably be of it. No one gets to the top without committing a little bit of genocide now and again. Yeah thats generally true. And no country, no culture exists without killing some people along the way. Humans are like that America killed natives to take their land. Every country killed someone and took their land America enslaved black people that one is top of the list. That ones embarrassing and black/natives do get special treatment now because of it for whatever its worth. But americas recent climb to the top has been the story of being on the right side of history for ww2. Having the most open and least corrupt economy. And using its military to foster general peice around the world. And for the good things america has and does do i give credit where its due
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Jan 18, 2015 21:00
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Alhazred posted:Why is South Korea of all countries trotted out as an example of the US exporting democracies? Exporting, protecting, allowing to flourish. South korea, like poland would have been firmly under the soviet boot if not for america. There are many democracies that exist either directly because of america or by virtue of being saved from communists
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Jan 18, 2015 21:03
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DarkCrawler posted:Israel not a democracy. It is an apartheid state that actively practices colonialism. United States' support of it is one of the greatest sins it has today. what stupidity is this? I dont care how they treat non citizens. The israeli state is more than welcome to determine who recieves citizenship and therefore the benefits of the state. Their not obligated to give social services to anyone who wanders into their lands. Anyone not happy with the social services offered in israel is free to move 50 miles in any direction to join one of the more pleasant muslim countries in the area Israel is a democracy because they elect their leaders. That is whats being discussed...focus. read and understand the words. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Israel elections = democracy whether you agree with how they behave doesnt change that simple simple fact. DarkCrawler posted:Iraq is considered a failed state by any metric by literally every organization and country in the world, including the United States. If you need me to post proof about this you're goddamn hopeless. their a failed state when theres no more iraq on my google map search. They can have all kinds of internal turmoil their new and they suck at this election stuff. Thats like saying America is a failed state mid civil war. Or france is a failed state mid french revolution. You internet ideologists live a cloud of dreams. Thank goodness men with their feet planted on the ground run the world and not these neckbeards davidb fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Jan 19, 2015 |
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Jan 19, 2015 02:10
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DarkCrawler posted:Haha, you don't know what a failed state even means, do you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state "Although there is no general consensus on the definition" DarkCrawler posted:Well, that explains a lot. Why do you give a flying gently caress about what the Soviets did to the Polish, then? I care about america getting the respect it deserves for freeing Poland from communist control. Im not on here bitching about how mean russia was to Poland. Hell, germany and poland have a longer history of killing each other and germany gets tons of respect from me. You guys get so caught up in the slightest details you miss the forest for the trees. America loving rocks and has done some really great stuff for world peace and democracy. All you care about is whether a country has a perfect track record. DarkCrawler posted:But if you had actually read the links posted, you would have noticed that Israel treats its non-Jewish citizens in an inferior way to its Jewish citizens, making it an apartheid state. having apartheid doesnt stop a country from having a democracy. You dont have to be a perfect democracy to be a, democracy. And frankly, if I was israel in an ocean of hostile muslims or other factions I wouldnt give full voting rights to everyone either. The middle east isnt the land of my little ponies where you can just open your doors and trust the people who flood in. Egypt cant trust its own people, Iraq cant trust its own people. The middle east is an orgy of hatred and violence. Whatever israel has to do to survive as a reasonably sane democracy in the hornets nest over there I support. syria had elections...werent they rigged or something? im willing to concede that a completely bastardized mockery of elections probably falls outside my initial statement of election = democracy. so its not so black and white on that
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Jan 19, 2015 02:35
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Ardennes posted:Basically, free elections aren't really free if you don't have equal rights for the population, it is a fair criticism of the US before civil rights as well. Even when the US had full blown slavery they were still a democracy. Slavery has been a thing for all of human history. Europe and america still have sex slave trade. They still get the democracy label from me. Perhaps some day in the future well have direct democracy and all humans will be free, no prejudice and elections will be the thing of theoretical beauty. But in the meantime we have the messy aparthaid, slavery, prejudice, hispanic non citizens in america not voting kind of democracy. Rigged elections are a whole nother thing.
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Jan 19, 2015 15:54
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Cerebral Bore posted:Because complimenting others is a nice thing to do, but complimenting yourself for accomplishments you had no part of is just crass. Good then, america isnt my country, i didnt help shape its history. But i am an immigrant living in the land and i appreciate the opportunities i have that i would never have anywhere else in europe. And their still the best country in the wold by a long shot
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Jan 19, 2015 15:57
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:America managed to gently caress up in Eastern Europe even though literally all they had to do was wait for the USSR to collapse. Instead they sent a bunch of assholes over to "help" by telling the newly independent states in Eastern European to privatize everything. The ones who went, "Lol, gently caress that and gently caress off" tend to be doing a lot better than the ones who listened. The ones that did better are the ones who listened. Poland privatized and their corruption is real low. They do have too heavy of a beurocratic system they didnt shake that from their russian days. The countries that didnt do well tend to have high corruption, heavy red tape beurocracy, didnt fully privatize, stayed more within the russian sphere of influence and the russian mentality of doing business. The people Ive met in poland, my family, their friends. Are very happy with the condition of the polish economy, how its grown since adopting american ways. And we have a democracy that works very well for us. Then you look at russia and all its satellite countries that it corrupted and they struggle. But they never went full american. They wanted to be mini russias but in charge of their own failure. As russians are owning their failing economy now through heir glorious leader kim jun putin
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Jan 19, 2015 16:12
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Panzeh posted:Poland deserved all the partitions it got and the fact that it couldn't naturally assert its own independence is very telling about its national character. Agreed. Polands lucky to exist, to have a healthy economy and a functioning democracy. They didnt earn it. Just like jews/israel America #1
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Jan 19, 2015 16:36
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Cingulate posted:To some, democracy means any system where government depends on voting. To others, it's a system where the people rule - equally, that is. An apartheid nation could be a democracy under the first, but not the second understanding. Agreed. But since there is no direct representation fully equal democracy well have to go with the more realistic real world version. Even in the best situation poor, sick people have trouble getting out to vote. That theoretical nations inability to make voting happen for the hobo under the bridge is a failure of democracy. Then we have all the shades of grey between the perfect democracy and the rigged election. I draw my line at rigged elections.
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Jan 19, 2015 16:40
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Randler posted:I guess it's hard for corrupt politicians to stay in power when they spend their first bribe making the pilot of their airplane drink so much vodka that he crushes the whole thing into the ground. The russians and ukrainians do a drat good job of staying corrupt while dying of vodka. Their really committed to their corruption so they get the failed economies they deserve
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Jan 19, 2015 16:42
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Cingulate posted:And the lowest corruption - lower than in the US, and much lower than in Poland - can be found in the nordic countries, which are usually seen as socialistic to some degree. Are you trying to say russia has less corruption than america? Russia where investors and world business wont touch with a 10 foot pole Vs America the #1 economy in the world. Ranked highly in terms of ease of business, security, rules of law, patent enforcement, low taxes?
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Jan 19, 2015 16:45
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asdf32 posted:As human made institutions go, the U.S. has probably been one of the greatest positive forces in world history. For what it's worth. Its not perfect. Has and still does some stupid poo poo. But still the best
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Jan 19, 2015 16:50
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VitalSigns posted:
Yeah america is a brutal nation state? Your such a delicate flower of ideals
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Jan 19, 2015 18:35
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Ytlaya posted:
Good thing we dont depend on people like you to get things done. People like you that require ideological purity to get your support. I see thomas jefferson as a great man who did important/good things. You masturbate about how he owned slaves I see america for the democracy spreading, russia neutralizing, world peace maintining great country that it is Your all like...america was mean this one time in band camp
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Jan 19, 2015 19:52
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BigPaddy posted:Agreed, you give the vote to everyone of age (come on is anyone really going to argue children should vote?) or it isn't truly representative. This is in place in western Democracies so now you have the next hurdle to cross which is make people involved with the political process so they are informed and go out and vote. That is something far harder to change. There are many difficulties achieving the perfect theoretical democracy. The children should get a vote if they understand what voting is. Why should 17 year olds be aparthaid..ed. kids are growing up fast nowadays. Your dismissal of 17 year old voters as not mentally capable is similar to why other groups were deemed not fit to vote throughout history. I dont know exactly what percentage of the population needs to be eligible to vote to still be considered a democracy. We currently require citizenship and 18years old. That still leaves a lot of people on the sidelines. I just know that rigged votes is my cutoff and aparthaid isnt. Because aparthaid is like slaves in america not voting. And i still consider america a democracy pre civil war. LookingGodIntheEye posted:In fact, I have no problem with saying that the US was not a real democracy until the Civil Rights Era. I recognize that as a legitimate stance the boston bomber posted:Does neutralizing Russia also involve democracy spreading and world peace maintaining? As an American I seem to recall spreading democracy to Russia a few decades ago, what happened there? You as an immigrant with experiences in lovely-non American states can surely explain that to me. What happened is whats been happening. Not every society can handle democracy..its a very fragile beast. Polish society had a certain...russian flavour to it. But when i visit my russian friends i can really see the difference in mentality between russians and say...germans who made democracy work Germans want to get the job done, whats good for society lets build it. I respect germans more than polaks Russians first thought is how can i work the system to make some money. That means lie cheat steal bribe, dont work if possible. Russians tried democracy and simultaneously their cultural mentality similtaneously was working against it. Backroom deals, hand twisting, bribes, jail for people who disagree. They value a mongol khan type more than voting together for the societies good. Similarly their attempt at free market capitalism. They want the benefits they see from pictures of capitalist lifestyle. But they dont have the laws in place to make it work. First you had the oligarchs swallow most of the pie. Then you have the government controlling the market and taking companies from ciitzens. The way a mongol khan could take war booty and women for himself at a whim and in dispraportional amounts
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Jan 19, 2015 21:28
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VitalSigns posted:This doesn't have an easy answer. Is it positive to be killed for your land, or have your democracy overthrown at the behest of fruit companies, or be shot by your own countrymen for trying to organize your labor? On the other hand if you're a Frenchman it is positive to be liberated by US soldiers who go home instead of USSR soldiers who stay for 50 years, and it is positive to have your country rebuilt with the Marshall Plan. Do they balance out? I don't know how you even begin to make a calculation like that. you cant give a straight answer can you? are all countries evil incarnate? If not then which country do you think has been a more positive influence on the world? If you cant answer that then why are you arguing America isnt that country? You must have an alternate option or else your just wasting time
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Jan 20, 2015 05:17
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