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Just finished this today after watching in about 3 sittings. Turned out great. Kingpin is somehow the most interesting character, which I would not have expected. Action scenes were great. I really like the balance they've struck with Matt's "totally not healing factor". Karen and Foggy are great, and I was so worried when they were introduced. I can't believe Wesley is gone, I really liked him as a part of Wilson's formula for success. Hopefully his death will let Vanessa move into that role, so that she gets to be a little more active. The scene of her choosing Wilson's clothes felt like they were showing the she is what makes him the Kingpin. But she didn't do much of anything for the rest of the season, so hopefully season two (anyone who thinks there won't be one is kidding themselves) will have them be an effective power couple. I wasn't super interested in the other Marvel/Netflix shows because I never followed those characters, but after having seen this, and House of Cards (still in the first season, no spoilers please), and Orange is the New Black, I'm sure these new shows will be good television.
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Apr 16, 2015 01:36
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Blackchamber posted:Well its not like she was picking out clothes for him from a store 'making him the Kingpin', those were already all items he purchased that fit with his tastes. Her picking them out, to me, seemed more like he was giving up a bit of power in his life (for a day) to her and may have been a little uncomfortable intrusion of his privacy/routine with breakfast but he ultimately enjoyed it. yeah, but Wilson's "tastes" are that he likes expensive and fine things because he considers them proof of his success. He doesn't actually know how to dress for success. But Vanessa does. One of the things I like about this Kingpin is that he just exudes intimidation naturally. Does he try to be intimidating? Yes, but it's not that he's really skilled at intimidating people, it's that he's scary and dangerous as gently caress and can't be predicted to act in his best interests. Wilson does the things that he does because his is comfortable with them. He wears his father's cufflinks, he buys the painting that reminds him of the wall he stared at as a boy, he eats the same meal for breakfast every morning. He doesn't do these things because they make him successful, he does them because they make him feel safe in his success. Vanessa doesn't have his insecurities, so she isn't hampered by them. Vanessa, in some ways, does for Wilson what Stick did for Matt. She helps him to see past what he considers weaknesses and not let them be distractions. Unlike Stick, she doesn't have issues with commitment. Wilson says that he's bad at meditation, but really he's just practicing a different form of meditation. While Matt reflects on his reality, his situation, how he got there, and the damage to his body, Wilson meditates on "the man he wants to be". He is a person who is very good at deciding what he wants, but very inexperienced when it comes to being good at getting it. But because of the man he is (not the one he wants to be) people have a hard time stopping him even when he makes mistakes. It's a great take on the character, and easily one of the best adaptions of a comic-book villain to the screen as an engaging character.
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Apr 16, 2015 02:27
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gigawhite posted:I want a supercut of all the times someone is just standing in an alley doing nothing and daredevil runs into frame and starts beating him Yeah, the acting in this show is pretty great, and the dialogue is great, and the thematic elements of the stories are great, but the weakest part is definitely that Matt's plan is literally just beat the poo poo out of people until the crime is gone. I was hoping there would be some decent legal drama element to the show, and there really wasn't.
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Apr 16, 2015 02:47
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Drifter posted:A vigilante wouldn't need to be a vigilante if there were better ways to put the bad guy away. Yeah, but it's the same kinda thing as Batman: most of the people he's shown beating up are just street level guys or people who Kingpin has threatened to torture and kill their entire families if they don't work for him. And I'm tired of shows where torture is shown as justified and effective. And here it's not just occasionally. Like "this guy's really bad, and we really need to know what he knows" it's like "welp i need to know some stuff, lets just start beating people until I learn it all." And it works. every. time. edit: and obviously most of the people he was really bad to were pretty bad guys, into human smuggling and sex slavery and stuff. I don't really have a problem with someone hurting and killing them as punishment, I just don't like when it's portrayed as effective at getting information, because EVERY SHOW DOES IT. Snak fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Apr 16, 2015 |
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Apr 16, 2015 02:57
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XboxPants posted:So, in this interpretation, how did Matt end up in the dumpster in the beginning of the second episode? Is this some kind of oppositional reading thing, where you ignore the parts that don't support your interpretation? I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about. He ended up there because he was lead into a trap. But every time he needs information, beating still works. Maybe only offscreen beatings provide false information? Who knows! But can you think of a torture scene where he doesn't get correct information by beating someone senseless, stabbing them in the eye socket, and threatening to throw them off buildings? Even if you're right, and I'm wrong about it working every time, my point still stands that this show can clearly be put in the "pro-torture" category.
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Apr 16, 2015 03:21
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gigawhite posted:I'm with Snak on this one. It was pretty cool in episode 2 when Claire tells him where to stick the knife, just because it defies your expectation for the character and what is typical of these shows, but by episode 8 so many scenes have ended with Matt saying something like "guess I'm going to have to pay him a visit" and then the rejoinder scene involving him catching someone in an alley and kick punching them and threatening to break all of their bones and follow them around and stuff Some good courtroom justice in the show would help counteract it. Part of the concept of Daredevil is, that as Lawyer he literally tries to use legal means, and if he can't he uses violence. We see him save Karen, but not really through being a great lawyer. Mostly it seemed like the law was ultimately useless and violence was always the answer.
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Apr 16, 2015 04:14
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Drifter posted:I think another issue with going the legal route during season 1 is that theoretically Kingpin was paying off lots of people. Hopefully in S2 (right RIGHT?!?! Yeah, really liked all the things they did, so I'm glad they didn't bog it down with courtroom scenes just to have them. I also think that Foggy knowing is a good catalyst for him making Matt exhaust their legal options first. I'm also assuming that Karen may go on trial for murder at some point, and they will have to defend her (again). Regardless, this season was really good. Puts Arrow to shame. This is how you do gritty comic book. With good characters who act like human beings.
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Apr 16, 2015 04:36
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) we can see Matt have more workable legal efforts.
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Steve Yun posted:I'm not sure what you mean by this. Wilson was "dressed for success" before he met Vanessa and it didn't change after they met. The point of their scene picking out suits was that the virtuous Vanessa, dressed in white, was getting the villain Fisk to ditch his usual Darth Vader blacks for a gray suit that represented his softening temperament. It's really basic color theory. I mean, it can be both, right? Like, was he still going to do the public appearance if he wasn't with Vanessa? Because if he was, he would have worn his darth vader black and dad's cufflinks. It's not like he's a bad dresser, but he dresses like the man he wants to be, not in the best way. At the beginning of the episode, we see him dress himself. He wears the same thing he always does, and he looks in the mirror and sees himself as the bloody little boy. When Vanessa dresses him, he looks in the mirror and sees himself, ready to go own that public appearance.
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Apr 16, 2015 05:00
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Xealot posted:
It's a good point about embracing his size. His childhood insecurities seem to have stuck around and we know his dad called him fat. It's possible that he wears black in no small part because it is slimming. A lot of modern shows and movies tend to have characters with superhuman planning/plotting/scheming abilities. I'm really glad they didn't do Kingpin as a mastermind who's always one step ahead. Him being a human with his own fears and hopes and dreams who is just manages to succeed because he's a loving badass is some much more interesting, especially as an adversary to Matt Murdock. Where Matt struggles with the "devil" inside him, Wilson struggles with the traumatized little boy he still is. I couldn't believe the one-two punch of finding out that after he murdered his dad, he immediately watched his mom saw apart his dad's body so they could put it in a bunch of different trash bags he could help dispose of. I think I will always have sympathy for this version of the character, because even though he's a horrible murderer, just look at what he learned about life and death as a kid. His dad teaches him to hurt the people who hurt him, he self-actualizes by murdering his dad, and then his mom teaches him that things are only morally wrong if you get caught.
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Apr 16, 2015 05:39
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I know it's a year off, but I would like to nominate the following for the season 2 thread title: Daredevil: You run around dressed like a moron, beating people up!
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Apr 16, 2015 05:46
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Which is what her and little Wilson ate together. It's what Wilson and Vanessa got on their date, where Vanessa pointed out that it was something a child would eat.
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Apr 16, 2015 21:48
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My biggest gripe about his powers being too good is when he can tell there are two road flares in a box that is not nearby. Being able to tell that there are road flares I can see, because he can probably smell the magnesium, but how many?
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Apr 16, 2015 23:19
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double negative posted:I think he'll be a bit different moving forward. As previous posters have said, it's the story of Fisk becoming Kingpin. The gradual move towards the white coat, the acceptance of his true role, it's kinda clear that from now on you'll be looking at a much less disillusioned man. I mean, he's essentially at his transformation point right now. He's staring at the wall again, but his image of the man he wants to be has evolved. Fisk is someone who is good at sticking to his goals, but he's not great at choosing his goals or understanding how they will change things. It's a really realistic character trait. It's kind of also just like his dad, who was like "I will get elected, which will solve my problems" or "I will put up these signs, they will get me elected". Unlike his dad, Wilson has chances to learn from his mistakes and adjust his goals accordingly. I expect that we will seem him become more calculating and smarter. As he accepts who he is, his style of violence and intimidation may become more refined as well, because he won't be bottling it up and the flipping out, but rather knowing when to apply force personally to achieve his goals.
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Apr 17, 2015 00:06
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Steve Yun posted:
Before his name is found out, on Ben's conspiracy board, Fisk's card is the king pinned at the top. Literally they are like "there's someone at the top. we don't know who it is" cut to Ben pinning the king at the top. Which made the shot of his dad hammering the nail into the top of his head on the sign like, both a callback and a foreshadowing. edit: As far as I know, they haven't actually said the word "Kingpin" in this show.
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Apr 17, 2015 08:22
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I was just thinking this morning how one of the big themes of this season is the "hiding the truth is the enemy". Superficially, the major struggle of our heroes is uncovering the what's really going on and what Fisk is really doing. But more than that, all of the problems our heroes have in their little group is because of lying to each other. Matt lying to Karen and Foggy, Foggy lying to Karen, Karen Lying to Matt, Foggy, and Ben, it's the reason they all feel so lost and alone. One part that sticks in my mind, is soon after Karen kills Wesley, Matt is talking about Fisk and says "You can't just go around killing people and call yourself a human being" and it's obvious that Karen is thinking of herself when she hears this. Furthermore, if Karen has any responsibility for Ben's death, it's not because she dragged him to the nursing home, it's because when she told him "They knew about us going to see Fisk's mom" and he asked how she knew, she said it was just a feeling and not "Oh one of them abducted me and asked me about it but I killed them, I don't know who else knows". Wilson and Vanessa are strong together because they explicitly do not lie to each other. This show is so good.
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Apr 17, 2015 16:26
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Yeah, there's a scene where Matt holds her hand briefly, and it occurred to me that he could almost certainly smell the GSR on her hands and know that she's fired a gun. But how would he call her out on it. And possibly she's just been going to range because she's scared. It's neat because the three of them KNOW that their secrets are tearing them apart, but it's their fear the prevents them from coming clean with each other.
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Apr 17, 2015 18:54
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The whole Marvel Netflix/MCU franchise is going to get me buying comics again like a huge nerd. Thank god I only read Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and not a bunch of mainstream stuff...
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Apr 17, 2015 19:11
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bobkatt013 posted:There is a connection I'm well aware that TMNT was basically a parody of Daredevil originally. It's why they fight The Foot clan of ninjas...
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Apr 17, 2015 19:41
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Phylodox posted:He smelled Foggy's lunch from three days ago. I was thinking about that during that scene, and I'm not sure that's true. He knows what Foggy ate for lunch three days ago, but it could be just because he remembered smelling it then. But that implication is definitely there...
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Apr 18, 2015 03:40
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Phylodox posted:At that point, why lie? I didn't mean it in the sense that he was lying. if Foggy ate lunch by himself 3 days ago, and has no reason to believe Matt knew what he ate, it's still an example of Matt's invasion of privacy and still demonstrates Matt's super powers. Maybe we are supposed to belief he can tell what people ate for lunch three days ago. That's fine. I just think there was enough ambiguity in that specific example that it's not clear cut.
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Apr 18, 2015 03:50
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Drifter posted:No dude, he wasn't lying or exaggerating. He was literally saying he could smell his food. You people come up with the weirdest things. But he didn't say he could smell his food. He said he knew what he ate for lunch three days ago. Is there an implication that he can tell by smell what Foggy ate three days ago? Yes. Is there any hard evidence, to us, the viewer, that Matt Murdock is able to smell what someone had for lunch three days ago? No. That's all I'm saying. Normally, poo poo like this wouldn't matter. But this is a comic book discussion, which inevitably will at some point involve discussing the specific nature of what Daredevil can and cannot do. So I was just pointing out that the line of reasoning "Showering won't stop Matt from smelling gunshot residue based on the fact that Matt can still smell what you ate three days ago" is making a lot of assumptions.
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Apr 18, 2015 04:55
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superstepa posted:This was probably mentioned before but I love how the front page of the newspaper in 1x13 is literally a comic book cover Can you link the actual cover? I knew they were playing off the comic-book art style as an "artists rendition" and really liked it. I didn't know it was a real Daredevil cover.
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Apr 18, 2015 05:16
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McSpanky posted:But that costume isn't completely black And it has horns?
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Apr 18, 2015 21:28
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NutritiousSnack posted:There were a lot of just random things that had great payoff, but that was the best. I'm watching this show for the second/third time with two different friends. There are so many little mentions and callbacks it's amazing. Just a few I noticed tonight: In Episode 4 "In the Blood", Foggy has a lot of throwaway lines that are later referenced in Episode 10 "Nelson v. Murdock". When he and Karen find out that Matt speaks Spanish, he mentions that if they ever have any clients that speak Punjabi, he's got it covered. In the "Nelson v. Murdock" Flashback, we learn that he is taking Punjabi because of a hot girl. He also references that his mother wanted him to be a butcher, to which Matt laments "Not the butcher story again." We see him tell this story for the first time in "Nelson v. Murdock". And most hilariously, in Episode 4 when he's pining for the wealth they could have had if they had stayed with Landman and Zack, he mentions that they had free bagels every day. In the later flashback, we see the moment when they decide to quit, and Foggy, dumping out his desk box, proclaims that he's stealing all the bagels he can carry. Also in this episode, when Fisk goes back to ask Vanessa out, he tells her that the painting he bought is the last thing he sees every night. She tells him that it is either "very romantic, or very sad". He says that he likes to think it's the former. Considering what we later learn, I'd say it's definitely the latter. Fisk's "we are alike, you and I..." speech in Episode 6 "Condemned", says at least as much about Fisk as it does Murdock, which is revealed in Episode 8 "Shadows in the Glass". Wilson Fisk posted:You're a child playing at being a hero. These have pretty much already been discussed, but I just wanted to mention how much they jumped out at me on a second viewing. Another thing that I noticed after we started talking about how concealing the truth is thematically a major source of suffering and a recurring plot point, is that the oft-mentioned sanctity of Confession that Matt shares with the priest also mirrors the "no snitching" attitude of the criminal organizations in this show. Though Matt questions if it's "fair", both he and the priest trust that they will not divulge each other's secrets told in confidence, even if they "killed ten people". Meanwhile, Matt's MO as a vigilante is to find people he thinks know something and are bound to secrecy, and hurt them until they break the promise they made. How would Matt feel if the loved one of someone he hurt came and tortured the Priest until he gave up Matt? Now obviously, Matt would immediately forgive anyone who gave him up, and feel responsible for putting them in danger. But then he's just go out for more revenge. Exactly how Fisk responds when someone puts Vanessa in danger. Blames himself and goes to cause some pain. It's clear that they didn't want to phone in any parallels between hero and villain, and they really did a good job of developing characters over time rather than dropping a bunch of exposition at the beginning and then coasting. They also paced the season very well. I think the first 2-3 episodes feel a but slow. But after having seen them all three times, I think the slow burn start is important because it helps developed all the characters as people. There's a lot of conversation scenes that could have been a lot shorter and still moved the plot along, but then they wouldn't have given the characters as much personality. The first 8 episodes establish the setting while filling in some origin of the hero, and then revealing the mysterious villain's origin. Then episode 9 ends on Wilson ground-pounding Matt in a scene reminiscent of the end the opening fight of the series. Snak fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Apr 19, 2015 |
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Apr 19, 2015 10:26
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Jedit posted:One interesting thing I noticed. Vanessa sells Fisk the white-on-white painting at his request, but when Matt visits the gallery she recommends to him a painting that is red on red with hints of yellow - the exact colours in which Matt "sees" the world. Also, as someone who was rooting for Foggy and Karen to get together during the first half of this show, Marcy turned out to be a lot less one-dimensional than her initial appearance suggested and I kind of like the realism of Foggy and Marcy, who are both at chaotic places in their lives, experimenting with rekindling things. For a comic-book show, I really appreciate the lack of censorship to the human nature of the main characters. They drink, gently caress, and lie, not because they are bad people, but because they are human, and they hurt, they're lonely, and they're scared. And the show doesn't treat it as a morality lesson. Snak fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Apr 19, 2015 |
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Apr 19, 2015 11:10
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Wolpertinger posted:Yeah, the cops were a little bit too willing to start murdering other cops, dirty or not. The SWAT team in episode 5 or 6 stands out in particular, especially considering that the guy didn't have a clue anything criminal was going on in the first place. In this specific instance, I assumed it was part of Fisk's plan to frame the man in the mask as a cop killing terrorist.
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Apr 19, 2015 16:45
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The Sharmat posted:Just watched this a few days ago. Is the consensus that this show was really awesome and one of the best things Marvel has ever produced? Because that's what I'm gonna say. When she told Wesley "Do you really think this is the first time I've shot someone?" I wasn't sure if she was bluffing at first. After seeing her do it, I'm pretty sure she was telling the truth.
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Apr 19, 2015 18:55
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The Sharmat posted:Also that little nightmare in the episode after it, with Wilson Fisk telling her that the secret is that "It gets easier every time" seemed to be speaking to something in her apparently unsavory past, to me. Yeah. And then right after this, Matt tells her "You can't just run around killing people and call yourself a human being." He's talking about Fisk, of course, but it's like the worst thing he could say to Karen. They did such a good job of not making Karen a lame sidekick blogger character we all worried she would turn out be after the first episode.
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Apr 19, 2015 19:05
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enraged_camel posted:I'm pretty sure it is. After she fires the first round, there's a moment where she's genuinely shocked at what she has done, which basically screams "oh my god, I actually shot someone!" And afterward she drops the gun in absolute disgust. See, I read it differently. Killing obviously isn't something she's comfortable with. If she's done it before, it was a traumatic event in her past. She probably told herself that she would never have to do it again. She grabs the gun and fires the shot because she's not afraid to, because it's saved her life before. Then she realizes that she actually has shot someone another time, but now she's committed and she's not going to gently caress it up, she's going to live and escape no matter what andBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM!! It's actually the tiniest bit reminiscent of Young Fisk: Once you get your enemy on the ground, you keep him there, you keep kicking. Once you've hit your bully in the head with a hammer, you make sure this is the last time you fight him. I think Karen has shot someone before. Maybe she killed, them, maybe she didn't. I think that Karen is a good person and that whatever happened in her past was at least as justified as her shooting Wesley to death. I think she feels bad about both events because she is a good person and doesn't believe in hurting other people. But she's also strong, doesn't like injustice, and won't stand idly by while innocent people are hurt. In fact, this could be the catalyst for Matt telling Karen that he is DareDevil. If circumstances force Karen to come clean to Matt about killing Wesley and all the investigative activities she's been going about behind their backs, she's going to make a case that her secrecy and lying was for the greater good. She wil be crushed and feel like she's betrayed their trust, but then Foggy will give Matt a look, and Matt will be all like "There's something I want to show you" and they finally unite as a team with no secrets between them.
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Apr 20, 2015 08:30
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zoux posted:Honestly my biggest problem with the series is that he beats information out of like 10 people. It's not even a thing about superheroes using torture, it's just, he can do other stuff as well. Come up with a new story beat guys. On my rewatch, I noticed that in episode 3 (I think) Claire is asking him what the plan is, and he doesn't have one except beat street level criminals until someone talks. Like, he's supposed to be smarter than that. If he didn't love beating people up, he could do the same job by working smarter instead of hitting harder, but it's like he rather just beat on people.
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Apr 20, 2015 19:27
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Kurtofan posted:Oh wesley It's neat because he normally has things so together, but he's trying to protect Fisk from FLIPPING THE gently caress OUT and he's off on his own not handling this problem any of the ways they normally would. There's normally a plan, but he was winging it.
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Apr 20, 2015 21:48
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Skeezy posted:Okay that answers the question I was going to post. I was so confused over how Wesley would mess this up but yeah that makes sense. Yeah I think he does what he does because he knows Fisk well enough to either want to protect Fisk or to be very afraid of what Fisk will do if he finds out. Remember this is right when Vanessa is in critical condition from being poisoned, Wesley does want Fisk getting this double wammy. He's worried and makes him careless.
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Apr 20, 2015 23:40
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Shageletic posted:I think its obvious that Daredevil would have had a way bigger splash if they had done it weekly. But maybe they still got a ton of eyeballs on it too this way, and its not like they give a poo poo about ads. Maybe its doing exactly what they want. I disagree. One of the things that struck me about DD is that it's not super episodic, and it's kind of a slow burn for developing/revealing the characters. For me things dont start to really pick up until Fisk is introduced, which isn't until the end of Episode 3. If the whole show hadn't been available to watch and I had to remember every week "oh yeah watch Daredevil, it might be good" I might not have stuck with it. Being able to watch it in in 3-5 sittings meant the development of characters like Wesley worked for me, where there weren't a lot of big memorable moments that would have stuck with me in the weeks between episodes. I think the reason Netflix's distribution method is going to work out so well is that it avoids the problem of the regular tv schedule. A big problem I have is that all my shows are on the same schedule. I have lots to watch, but I'm alternated shows because even though (hypothetical example)I want to the next episode of Hannibal RIGHT NOW, I have to wait a week, so I watch The Flash instead. This isn't too bad, except when all the shows end at once, and then I have to wait for the next season of EVERYTHING. Netflix gives you you show all at once, so you can watch more of it right away to feed your fix. It doesn't release all its shows at once, but staggered. So while it's true that you watch a season in a day or a week and then have to wait a whole year, you do the same thing you did before: watch another show while you wait. And this other show has all the episodes out so you can watch at your own pace. You're still switching between shows, but you get to experience each show as a continuous experience. You don't have to be thinking about the characters of all the shows you watch at the same time. It also gives the shows more chance to be cinematic. I bet a lot of people often watch more than one episode at a time. This means that they have more freedom to make the show serialized. There's no risk of losing viewers who think they are too far behind, or who don't want to have to wait to see what happens. And you can still end every episode with a hook to make you come back for more, but it's not annoying any more. Season finales are a lot more brutal of a cliffhanger though.
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Apr 21, 2015 05:13
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ChiaPetOutletStore posted:After finally finishing the series, I think my favourite thing about it is the fact that Fisk always thanks the nameless henchman for doing things for him. He seems like he'd be a good boss, aside from the occasional headbutt. I liked that too. Now that you mention it, I wonder if that's something he'll stop doing now that he has a more realistic view of himself.
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Apr 21, 2015 05:39
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The Sharmat posted:I don't really like comic books any more to be honest. They just feel flat to me. Probably more an issue with me than an issue with the medium. ~$70 is a little steep... What about Iron Fist? He sounds like a big departure from what current TV/Movie Marvel feels like. Is there recommended reading for Iron Fist?
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Apr 21, 2015 18:32
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As much as I love Fisk, I hope that he's basically not in season 2 at all. That way Season 3 can open with "Previously and Daredevil" and show a supercut of Fisk starting at his cell wall every day for an entire year before his escape.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:03
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Boogaleeboo posted:Ha ha ha....ah, 'escape'. He's walking straight out of that cell, you know that right? Well yeah, I was just using a general term for escaping justice in general, because it's hard to know what direction they are going to go yet.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:09
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bobkatt013 posted:He is the Kingpin of crime. He is going to get someone to take the blame for it as he is just an innocent man who was trying to save the neighborhood. Maybe he'll pin it all on Wesley.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:17
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bobkatt013 posted:Or Leland Owlsley This would give Leland Jr. a reason to come to New York and start poking around.
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Apr 22, 2015 17:21
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AnonSpore posted:Foggy owned bones though Yeah. I thought i was going to hate him when I saw his very first scene. But like all the characters in this show, he is written and acted as a lot more human than we've come to expect from both television archetypes and comic book screen adaptions. It's what really made this show shine for me. The characters are people, who are flawed, but not in cartoonish ways. Compare Daredevil to Arrow (I haven't seen season 3 yet, no spoilers, please). Arrow has characters whose flaws are "I am angst, you've failed this city, I don't know how to stop banging hot bitches and get some revenge" and "I got super soldier drugs and now I'm a psycho and it makes me SO MAD" or "A bunch of people died so I'm not speaking to you until the next big reveal". The difference between The CW and Netflix is night and day. (The Flash is still great, though)
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Apr 24, 2015 05:49
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