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Thauros
Jan 29, 2003



There's been a surge of interest in Lucha Libre on PSP for both good reasons (Lucha Underground, Rey and Alberto leaving WWE, Fantasticamania, AAA ippvs) and sadly one incredibly tragic one.

With Lucha becoming increasingly accessible to watch (especially AAA) and PSP growing increasingly disenchanted with the product WWE's putting out I thought it was time there was a thread to discuss it and share links to cool matches both past and present that are on Youtube and Dailymotion. It's not to everyone's tastes but if you're looking for something new and different you should give it a try instead of just futilely complaining about WWE.

Where do I go for news or to find matches?

thecubsfan (blog/Twitter/YouTube) provides thorough coverage on his blog and twitter and constantly uploads AAA on Televisa, CMLL’s TV, and various indie matches on his YouTube.

“Dr. Lucha” Steve Sims (Twitter) covers Lucha in Bryan Alvarez’s weekly newsletter and does occasional podcasts for WO/F4W subscribers

woooo streams a four hour block of Lucha every Wednesday featuring both AAA and CMLL from 4-8 Eastern (Thanks Yuriy)

AAA uploads stuff on their own YouTube including their Sin Limite TV show as well.

Segunda Caida - "Good blog for random lucha stuff" (Thanks spermgod)

Major Feds



AAA is currently the biggest fed in Mexico and also the one partially responsible for Lucha Underground. They have higher production values and better television coverage than CMLL and their product is generally considered to be more "Americanized" in style. Matches are one fall, titles seem a little more important than they are in CMLL and you see a lot more heel interference and post match beatdowns. They hold a few major iPPVs a year. Their first two attempts were mostly disastrous but they changed providers for their last one and it streamed perfectly.

They're still a long way from reaching their '90s zenith but before this week of horrible tragedies they were experiencing a run of steady growth and considered to be a company on the rise. Perro Aguayo Jr was their top rudo and according to Dave Meltzer was more important to them than John Cena is to the WWE, so they obviously have a huge challenge ahead of them.




CMLL is the oldest existing wrestling promotion in the world and presents a more traditional Lucha product. All matches are 2/3 falls. If you're a NJPW fan you've seen many CMLL stars make appearances there especially on the February Fantasticamania tour. Many lucha fans on PSP consider them to have better workers than AAA does. Unfortunately, aside from last year's fabulously successful Anniversary show headlined by Atlantis vs. Ultimo Guerrero in a mask vs match match they've struggled at the gate and lost their main television. Fortunately for them they own their main two buildings so they should be able to survive for the foreseeable future.

They used to stream matches live on Sunday nights but sadly that's no longer the case. You can still catch many of their matches on YouTube albeit sometimes in a chopped up form.

Other feds

There's tons of smaller feds out there as well that run the gamut from traditional lucha with old stars from 20+ years ago to goofy comedy poo poo featuring warring teams of Ninja Turtles. I know very little about them to be quite honest but thecubsfan covers them and uploads indie stuff on his channel and Spermgod can probably tell you a lot more.

How the hell do tag matches work?

In lucha a legal tag is made as soon as a wrestler touches the outside floor. If you've seen lucha influenced Japanese or US feds like Dragon Gate and Chikara you'll be familiar with it.

Why are the referees so terrible?

I'd like to know too. Rudo refs are a thing in both feds, and sometimes even regular refs will apparently hold a grudge or show favoritism to certain competitors. Ref bullshit is probably my least favorite aspect of lucha, but you'll get used to it.

Uh, what you said is bullshit and you obviously have no idea what you're talking about!

I'm the farthest thing from a lucha expert and simply felt that this forum needed a thread for stuff that wasn't a GDT for an event that's already been held or discussion of Perro's death. Improved info and corrections are welcome from people who know more than I do.

Thauros fucked around with this message at Apr 15, 2015 around 20:27

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wagnike2
May 31, 2007

Lucha LaBOOM


Every time one of these threads are made, I swear to watch more lucha and then I fail to get around to doing that.

LvK
Feb 27, 2006

HA, Too-Ticki! We haven't been to the wild west for nothing!


I'd like to see some of these more "traditional" indies. Do you mean more of the dramatic matwork, or more just "an immobile fat guy gets cheered to put someone in an armbar"

Yuriy
Dec 25, 2006

Pay no attention to me, for I am a stupid cunt.

LvK posted:

I'd like to see some of these more "traditional" indies. Do you mean more of the dramatic matwork, or more just "an immobile fat guy gets cheered to put someone in an armbar"

From what I've seen on Lucha Tube in wooo, the latter

Speaking of, I know a lot of people here watch wooo from time to time but if you don't:

See this?

Every Wednesday, they have a 4 hour block of that week's CMLL and AAA, plus a bunch of those aforementioned Lucha indie

So if you want like a "weekly watch", 4-8 ET on Wednesday at taima.tv/r/wooo plus it goes right into the live airing of Lucha Underground!

LvK
Feb 27, 2006

HA, Too-Ticki! We haven't been to the wild west for nothing!


Yuriy posted:

From what I've seen on Lucha Tube in wooo, the latter

Speaking of, I know a lot of people here watch wooo from time to time but if you don't:

See this?

Every Wednesday, they have a 4 hour block of that week's CMLL and AAA, plus a bunch of those aforementioned Lucha indie

So if you want like a "weekly watch", 4-8 ET on Wednesday at taima.tv/r/wooo plus it goes right into the live airing of Lucha Underground!

loving nice

Spermgod
Jan 8, 2012

pink wasn't even a thing why is t#RXT REVOLUTION~!
and i'm so fucking excited for #SCOOPS#SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS

he knows..


Thanks for putting in the effort to do this 'cause I don't know if I was ever going to get around to it.

CMLL just had one of their bigger shows of the year, Homenaje a Dos Leyendas, headlined by Volador Jr. & Maximo vs. Rey Bucanero & El Terrible in a double hair vs double hair match. Reports are that the MOTN was Dragon Lee vs. Kamaitachi (NJPW Young Lion Hiromu Takahashi), mask vs. mask. The matches should mostly start airing on TV over the next week, and be uploaded on cubsfan's YouTube the following Tuesday. The mask match already aired and there's a phone quality recording of it available:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo6PCzta2_8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6IDBaakDw

Thauros
Jan 29, 2003



Yuriy posted:

From what I've seen on Lucha Tube in wooo, the latter

Speaking of, I know a lot of people here watch wooo from time to time but if you don't:

See this?

Every Wednesday, they have a 4 hour block of that week's CMLL and AAA, plus a bunch of those aforementioned Lucha indie

So if you want like a "weekly watch", 4-8 ET on Wednesday at taima.tv/r/wooo plus it goes right into the live airing of Lucha Underground!

added to OP, thanks for info.

Spermgod
Jan 8, 2012

pink wasn't even a thing why is t#RXT REVOLUTION~!
and i'm so fucking excited for #SCOOPS#SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS

he knows..


a good starting point for CMLL is the En Busca de un Idolo tournament from last year, which I guess is kinda like the original NXT series but better. It's a multi-week deal with wrestlers able to win points from winning matches, judging and fan votes. The idea is that it's for rookie wrestlers, although last year Hechicero, a 15-year vet and one of the best workers in Mexico, participated as he had never worked full-time in CMLL before. All matches are lightning matches (one fall, 10 minute time limit) except for the grand final which is one fall, no time limit.

Here's a playlist of all the En Busca matches ranked 'must see' by Segunda Caida, which is a good blog for random lucha stuff. Anything with two of the final four of Hechicero, Dragon Lee, Cavernario and Cachorro is pretty much guaranteed to be really good. The grand final and the six man with the final four and the two trainers, Negro Casas and Virus, are both Mexican MOTYCs.

Spermgod fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2015 around 19:44

StarkRavingMad
Sep 27, 2001


Yams Fan

Lucha Underground put all of last week's incredible coffin match up on their youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Icvizxc3UB0

SleepCousinDeath
Oct 13, 2012


If you want to watch more of Lucha indies without having to watch hours worth of crap I'd suggest channels like +LuchaTV and tvluchadelpasado as they upload highlights from shows and matches on a weekly basis and have pretty good production

edit: Estrellas del Ring is also a good channel

SleepCousinDeath fucked around with this message at Mar 23, 2015 around 21:48

The Duck of Death
Nov 19, 2009



LvK posted:

I'd like to see some of these more "traditional" indies. Do you mean more of the dramatic matwork, or more just "an immobile fat guy gets cheered to put someone in an armbar"

Both. Watch some Negro Navarro and Solar matches if you like matwork. IWRG was probably the best wrestling promotion in the world (in terms of consistent quality of the matches) at a few points during the 2010s, but I haven't seen much out of it lately.

Burt Buckle
Sep 1, 2011



Thank you for posting this. I love lucha but man is CMLL the most inaccessible wrestling fed on the planet. AAA is as easy to follow as WWE with their YouTube channel but I cannot find any way to watch CMLL, not even their major shows. I'll try and check out that woo stream.

Spermgod
Jan 8, 2012

pink wasn't even a thing why is t#RXT REVOLUTION~!
and i'm so fucking excited for #SCOOPS#SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS

he knows..


Burt Buckle posted:

Thank you for posting this. I love lucha but man is CMLL the most inaccessible wrestling fed on the planet. AAA is as easy to follow as WWE with their YouTube channel but I cannot find any way to watch CMLL, not even their major shows. I'll try and check out that woo stream.

http://www.youtube.com/user/thecubsfan/

It's really amazing to look at CMLL compared to just a few years ago and see just how quickly a promotion can fall off. Makes you realize how smart WWE was to untie their business model from the reliance on individual stars.

Spermgod fucked around with this message at Mar 24, 2015 around 03:04

NotQuiteQuentin
Jan 29, 2005

BIG OVER


College Slice

Spermgod posted:

http://www.youtube.com/user/thecubsfan/

It's really amazing to look at CMLL compared to just a few years ago and see just how quickly a promotion can fall off. Makes you realize how smart WWE was to untie their business model from the reliance on individual stars.

How long can CMLL maintain this? I know they have hopes for Cavenario and that they own their major venues, but it seems like there isn't a big star/great fix in the works for them. I can't see Bushiroad stepping in and subsidizing them like they are with NOAH.

Spermgod
Jan 8, 2012

pink wasn't even a thing why is t#RXT REVOLUTION~!
and i'm so fucking excited for #SCOOPS#SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS

he knows..


NotQuiteQuentin posted:

How long can CMLL maintain this? I know they have hopes for Cavenario and that they own their major venues, but it seems like there isn't a big star/great fix in the works for them. I can't see Bushiroad stepping in and subsidizing them like they are with NOAH.

From my limited understanding, a lot of the reason for the complacent booking and promotion is that they can still turn a comfortable profit drawing the same 2000 fans to every show that they're doing right now. As you said they own their buildings and their talent budget is low both because many guys are willing to take low pay in exchange for the prestige of working in Arena México, and a lot of the top stars live rent-free in apartments owned by the Lutteroth family.

Among hardcore fans there seem to be a similar attitude to with WWE and Vince, in that so long as Paco Alonso is in charge there's little hope of change. The guy seems more interested in having his own private fiefdom than swallowing his pride and bringing back old stars/paying for a Televisa slot/doing anything else that would build business.

Thauros
Jan 29, 2003



This paragraph was very confusing to read even by Dave's standards, but he seems to think they have a good shot at getting better TV soon:

quote:

The company is back on national television because Cadena Tres, the channel that aired CMLL on Saturday nights from 7-9 p.m. (airing the Arena Mexico Tuesday night shows) has given clearance to become a national free-to-air station. It would make sense for CMLL to now switch to providing them the higher profile Friday night shows, but they are right now on Fox Sports, a pay channel, edited heavily and with a frequently changing time slot. Those same shows air in the U.S. on Azteca America.

I'm p sure that was supposed to read that they may have the opportunity to be back, not that they already are.

NotQuiteQuentin
Jan 29, 2005

BIG OVER


College Slice

Spermgod posted:

From my limited understanding, a lot of the reason for the complacent booking and promotion is that they can still turn a comfortable profit drawing the same 2000 fans to every show that they're doing right now. As you said they own their buildings and their talent budget is low both because many guys are willing to take low pay in exchange for the prestige of working in Arena México, and a lot of the top stars live rent-free in apartments owned by the Lutteroth family.

Among hardcore fans there seem to be a similar attitude to with WWE and Vince, in that so long as Paco Alonso is in charge there's little hope of change. The guy seems more interested in having his own private fiefdom than swallowing his pride and bringing back old stars/paying for a Televisa slot/doing anything else that would build business.

I didn't know that they were still making a profit, I thought a lot of the doom and gloom was in that they weren't making money. Thanks for the explanation.

Spermgod
Jan 8, 2012

pink wasn't even a thing why is t#RXT REVOLUTION~!
and i'm so fucking excited for #SCOOPS#SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS

he knows..


Thauros posted:

This paragraph was very confusing to read even by Dave's standards, but he seems to think they have a good shot at getting better TV soon:


I'm p sure that was supposed to read that they may have the opportunity to be back, not that they already are.

He should've said "airs", present tense. They're on CadenaTres right now but the footage is mostly from the Tuesday Arena México shows which are pretty much just house shows with the level of star power and wrestler effort that implies.

Thauros
Jan 29, 2003



cubsfan just uploaded new playlists for both the second and third weeks of March.


https://www.youtube.com/user/thecubsfan/playlists

Spermgod posted:

He should've said "airs", present tense. They're on CadenaTres right now but the footage is mostly from the Tuesday Arena México shows which are pretty much just house shows with the level of star power and wrestler effort that implies.

Ok, that makes more sense. The minor Tuesday shows are back on, and Dave thinks it would make sense if the major Friday shows returned as well but who the gently caress knows if that's going to happen.

Thauros fucked around with this message at Mar 24, 2015 around 17:02

Spermgod
Jan 8, 2012

pink wasn't even a thing why is t#RXT REVOLUTION~!
and i'm so fucking excited for #SCOOPS#SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS

he knows..


Kamaitachi vs. Dragon Lee trios edited down to less than 10 minutes...sigh

Thauros
Jan 29, 2003



What's the difference between the AAA on Televisa show cubsfan uploads and the AAA Sin Limite sow on the official channel? Is it simply the same thing and cubsfan splits it up into individual segments?

Spermgod
Jan 8, 2012

pink wasn't even a thing why is t#RXT REVOLUTION~!
and i'm so fucking excited for #SCOOPS#SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS

he knows..


I think it's just the same thing taped off TV, I have no idea why he bothers.

handsome only face
Apr 22, 2010

Cockroach went out of the room in anger. And roach's go to empty room...

Cockroache's Anarchist


Super porky

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

NotQuiteQuentin posted:

I didn't know that they were still making a profit, I thought a lot of the doom and gloom was in that they weren't making money. Thanks for the explanation.

CMLL talent is paid on a percentage of the house so it is really difficult for them to lose money. The last two Anniversary shows also made ungodly amounts of money. Part of the problem is they aren't going to spend money to try to improve their state. They could get a good TV deal but they don't want to pay for it and can't find a sponsor to pay for it. They'll sometimes pay to bring in nostalgia acts to bump business for a few weeks but the ones who matter are on the outs with the company. It's a weird frustrating company in many ways.

widunder
May 2, 2002


I'm going to Los Angeles at the end of June. Is there somewhere in that area where I can go see some matches live?

StarkRavingMad
Sep 27, 2001


Yams Fan

widunder posted:

I'm going to Los Angeles at the end of June. Is there somewhere in that area where I can go see some matches live?

Lucha Underground films in the LA area but their schedule is unknown until they announce a taping. Follow their Twitter (@LuchaElRey) and email them for tickets if they announce that there will be an event while you will be in town. Tickets are free, but there aren't very many, so you need to be a little quick on the draw.

widunder
May 2, 2002


StarkRavingMad posted:

Lucha Underground films in the LA area but their schedule is unknown until they announce a taping. Follow their Twitter (@LuchaElRey) and email them for tickets if they announce that there will be an event while you will be in town. Tickets are free, but there aren't very many, so you need to be a little quick on the draw.
Thank you!

Thauros
Jan 29, 2003



Rey's officially retiring

http://deportes.televisa.com/video/...erio-se-retira/

Can't blame the guy of course, but what a sad end to an amazing career. He looked so drat happy at that Rey de Reyes show only a few days before the tragedy.


Never mind, another bullshit report like the one where he got arrested apparently?

EDIT:

quote:


luchablog @luchablog · 1h 1 hour ago

Rey Misterio Jr. has not said he's retiring. A friend said he's thought about it.. As anyone would in his situation.

Thauros fucked around with this message at Mar 27, 2015 around 01:05

schweens
Jan 14, 2011

kakarot ain't got shit on me


Rey denied retirement rumors and says he's very close to signing with LU tonight at the Walemania Q&A.

I hope they release audio tomorrow. I'm interested in hearing the rest of it

Spermgod
Jan 8, 2012

pink wasn't even a thing why is t#RXT REVOLUTION~!
and i'm so fucking excited for #SCOOPS#SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS

he knows..


ALL ELITE has Rush vs. Dr. Wagner Jr. booked for 4/19 at Arena Coliseo Guadalajara. I think that could be a really good match so hopefully it makes tape. I'd expect a screwy finish though.

Minus1Minus1
Apr 26, 2004

Azula always lies

Not sure if this might be better for the general questions thread, but would anyone be willing to expand on differences between the Lucha style and the WWE style?

I've really only ever watched WWE, and I've always been kind of a casual fan, so my perspective is limited. I know about, and have noticed, the Lucha tendency for kind of light bumping and very "cooperative"-looking offense, but outside of that, is there more I should be thinking about as I watch?

Also, as someone who's really enjoyed LU, how would people say it differs from traditional Lucha and current WWE?

I guess I'm specifically thinking about ring-work, but if there's other stuff, I'd love to hear about it.

Burt Buckle
Sep 1, 2011



Minus1Minus1 posted:

Not sure if this might be better for the general questions thread, but would anyone be willing to expand on differences between the Lucha style and the WWE style?

I've really only ever watched WWE, and I've always been kind of a casual fan, so my perspective is limited. I know about, and have noticed, the Lucha tendency for kind of light bumping and very "cooperative"-looking offense, but outside of that, is there more I should be thinking about as I watch?

Also, as someone who's really enjoyed LU, how would people say it differs from traditional Lucha and current WWE?

I guess I'm specifically thinking about ring-work, but if there's other stuff, I'd love to hear about it.

I think you described it yourself pretty well, more cooperative offense, aerial moves, shorter selling. Of course it varies even within lucha, if you watched some heavier guys like Chessman vs. Monster Clown or whoever then it would look pretty similar to a WWE paced match. Lucha has a much much heavier emphasis on tag, trio, and 4 man tag matches compared to WWE, and in lucha you don't have to tag out, if you just leave the ring or get thrown out of the ring your partner can come in. It makes for a much more frantic pace.

Burt Buckle fucked around with this message at Mar 27, 2015 around 08:03

Minus1Minus1
Apr 26, 2004

Azula always lies

Iv

Burt Buckle posted:

I think you described it yourself pretty well, more cooperative offense, aerial moves, shorter selling. Of course it varies even within lucha, if you watched some heavier guys like Chessman vs. Monster Clown or whoever then it would look pretty similar to a WWE paced match. Lucha has a much much heavier emphasis on tag, trio, and 4 man tag matches compared to WWE, and in lucha you don't have to tag out, if you just leave the ring or get thrown out of the ring your partner can come in. It makes for a much more frantic pace.

Thanks. I didn't know there were wrestlers named Chessman and Monster Clown before, and I feel better about life in general now that I do.

It can be pretty easy to read the finish of a typical WWE match, with extremely few matches ending with anything but some kind of flurry of finishers or a rollup. My impression from watching a little NJPW was that they didn't end their matches the same, and I haven't noticed the same type of finishes in LU. Is the finishing sequence "template" significantly different for lucha stuff, or is it just that I'm unfamiliar with the individual performers?

Nerokerubina
Jun 7, 2007

I think swords are neat. Do you think swords are neat?!


also note that "lucha" isn't really an all-encompassing term. AAA and CMLL are probably farther apart stylistically than like WWE and New Japan are, almost

Germ Incubator
Nov 4, 2009

Out Of Control

Hard To Regulate

Anything Goes


This might be a long shot but are there any Mexican goons out there who could possibly do me a favour?

A good friend of mine was a massive Perro Aguayo jr. fan and has been understandably devastated. I wanted to get her a Perros Del Mal shirt as a surprise but the only website I can find is here http://www.mtzwear.com/eng/art_detalle.php?id=4859 and is charging $60 for shipping to the UK

It's much cheaper for within Mexico (as far as I can tell, there are a few options I can't read in the drop down menu for Mexican shipping.) Is there anyone who would be willing to buy the tee and then send it to me if I sent the money for it?
Or failing that if anyone knows anywhere else I could find this tee that'd be awesome.

SleepCousinDeath
Oct 13, 2012


Where is my Dragon Lee Vs Kamaitachi mask match in decent quality

I need it

coconono
Aug 11, 2004

I bet against K-1


Minus1Minus1 posted:

Not sure if this might be better for the general questions thread, but would anyone be willing to expand on differences between the Lucha style and the WWE style?

I've really only ever watched WWE, and I've always been kind of a casual fan, so my perspective is limited. I know about, and have noticed, the Lucha tendency for kind of light bumping and very "cooperative"-looking offense, but outside of that, is there more I should be thinking about as I watch?

Also, as someone who's really enjoyed LU, how would people say it differs from traditional Lucha and current WWE?

I guess I'm specifically thinking about ring-work, but if there's other stuff, I'd love to hear about it.

Lucha is all about popping the crowd through big moves. Everything else is secondary. That's why you rarely see builds towards finishes or even drama builders like near falls. Sometimes the finish just kinda happens but the crowd got to see cool flips so they're happy.

The other major component is the ref is lucha matches is also an active participant. Sometimes the ref is the only one going into the match with any backstory(oh he's a former CMLL ref that got tapped to ref a CMLL guy's match).

Trying to explain WWE style anymore is a waste because the company looks at matches like B-Roll. Things you can edit bits from to hype the next match.

Lucha Underground is pretty much an indie with heavy lucha influence. Stylistically, they'll go for more storytelling via big moves. Generally they try to keep the finishes hot as well.

Spermgod
Jan 8, 2012

pink wasn't even a thing why is t#RXT REVOLUTION~!
and i'm so fucking excited for #SCOOPS#SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS #SCOOPS#SCOOPS

he knows..


I actually think lucha is more built around the traditional heat/comeback structure than US and Japanese wrestling which has become less about that and more about building to big spots. It's changing in Mexico too though, just at a slower rate. I also get the impression (and I can't really back this up, but it's what it seems like to me) that despite the greater presence of highly choreographed/cooperative individual spots, the matches as a whole are more improvised than modern Japanese and US matches. I rarely see lucha stuff that seems like they're running through an extended series of predetermined moves, like you'd see in a Young Bucks match or something.

Spermgod fucked around with this message at Mar 27, 2015 around 18:21

Burt Buckle
Sep 1, 2011



Here are my luchador(a) masks. If you can name them all you get 20 lucha points.


Answer key:
Rey, Dr. Wagner, Fenix, Sexy Star, Sin Cara/Myzteziz/Mistico, Hijo Del Fantasma, Future UFC Champ CM Punk

Only registered members can see post attachments!

Burt Buckle fucked around with this message at Mar 27, 2015 around 19:57

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SleepCousinDeath
Oct 13, 2012


Ah, CM Punk. I remember the great series of matches he had with Atlantis in the 90s

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