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Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

The first UNIT audio story is now available for download from Big Finish - I figured I'd give it a shot and see what I think, hopefully it is good.

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Lampsacus
Oct 21, 2008

echoplex posted:



There's something I can't put my finger on, but I often feel he has less gravitas than he did as Malcom. I honestly don't know what it is - the comparative pace of the lines, the editing, the way he delivers his lines or even something as banal as the sound mix, but he doesn't quite have the punch that he had in TTOI which I think would make those speeches better.
I was thinking about this during the episode. I think its because he doesn't have as long lines. He is great at pacing around the room working monologues but the short punchy lines of the Doctor don't run with his style so well.
EDIT: While I'm here, may you guys recommend any Classic serials where the Doctor went to strange places? E-Space, that fairy tale land. Settings 'outside the universe' or at least really really bizarre. I'm a huge fan of those sort of things in Doctor Who. How weird does it get?

Lampsacus fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Nov 9, 2015

misadventurous
Jun 26, 2013

the wise gem bowed her head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between good & bad quartzes. you imbecile. you fucking moron"

Neddy Seagoon posted:

I think there's at least one thing we can all agree on;

Peter Harness should never be let near a Doctor Who episode ever again. Or any other TV show, for that matter.

Nah. He wrote two stories with interesting ideas and ramifications that would have worked fine with some tweaks. Guy needs a better editor, he's not the next Pip'n' Jane, jeez.

I feel like a lot of people went into this two-parter predisposed to hate it because of Kill the Moon. Though to be fair, I liked Kill the Moon so I was more receptive to another Harness. Wonder what the average viewer on the street who doesn't care about who wrote what thought?

misadventurous fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Nov 9, 2015

Forktoss
Feb 13, 2012

I'm OK, you're so-so

Lampsacus posted:

EDIT: While I'm here, may you guys recommend any Classic serials where the Doctor went to strange places? E-Space, that fairy tale land. Settings 'outside the universe' or at least really really bizarre. I'm a huge fan of those sort of things in Doctor Who. How weird does it get?

While it's set in plain old regular outer space, the Fifth Doctor story Enlightenment comes to mind. It has the godlike Eternals having a race in space with old sailing ships, and they all snicker at the Time Lords for making such a show for lording over as small a domain as that.

misadventurous
Jun 26, 2013

the wise gem bowed her head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between good & bad quartzes. you imbecile. you fucking moron"

Warrior's Gate! The Mind Robber! Yes Enlightenment!
Those stories all own.

misadventurous fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Nov 9, 2015

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

misadventurous posted:

I feel like a lot of people went into this two-parter predisposed to hate it because of Kill the Moon

Kill The Moon was a disappointment because it was touted as a potential classic more than because it was that bad. I, for one, didn't know who wrote the two parters until I looked it up after the episode, and I didn't know who he was until I looked that up and then it made sense.

misadventurous
Jun 26, 2013

the wise gem bowed her head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between good & bad quartzes. you imbecile. you fucking moron"

I had that response to In the Forest of the Night. Sounded so great and turned out to be a whole lot of nothing. It does not help that the title references Blake and the episode does absolutely nothing except have a literal tyger show up for ten seconds.
So, okay, sure. I thought people hated Moon more for the egg moon and the abortion themes, though.

echoplex
Mar 5, 2008

Stainless Style

Lampsacus posted:

I was thinking about this during the episode. I think its because he doesn't have as long lines. He is great at pacing around the room working monologues but the short punchy lines of the Doctor don't run with his style so well

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense now you say it. Would also account for why my favourite bit of the series was him talking to camera at the start of 4.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

misadventurous posted:

I had that response to In the Forest of the Night. Sounded so great and turned out to be a whole lot of nothing. It does not help that the title references Blake and the episode does absolutely nothing except have a literal tyger show up for ten seconds.
So, okay, sure. I thought people hated Moon more for the egg moon and the abortion themes, though.

Nobody hates it for the abortion themes because nobody can agree what the gently caress those themes are supposed to be.

They exist, you can't say they don't exist, but they're so badly botched and horribly executed and muddled that we have no idea what they are or mean.

Kill the Moon was just a lot of failures and hopefully will be forgotten in time.

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.

Toilet Rascal
I agree that Kill The Moon is a poorly constructed episode, but it takes it to such an extreme that it loops back around to being entertaining for me. It's just the right amount of crazy. The botched abortion subtext that goes absolutely nowhere is part of that.

In The Forest of the Night, though, is botched in the worst way, in that it's aggressively boring. God what a piece of poo poo that was. This is the same guy that wrote 24 Hour Party People. What happened?

Clouseau
Aug 3, 2003

My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie.
I agree with the above. Kill the Moon is on the fun side of ridiculous for me. Forest of the Night is dull as dishwater.

Delta and the Bannermen is the best story Who has ever put out though.

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

Just let Zygons be Zygons. If you think about it, that's the simplest message of a simplistic 2-parter. Glad someone pointed out how a plane can be shot down but it's ok the Doctor had a Union Jack parachute.

Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

This is Urotsuki.

ewe2 posted:

Just let Zygons be Zygons.

I think I have a migraine from this now.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Chokes McGee posted:

I think I have a migraine from this now.

Great works have sprung from lovely puns. Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light, one of the greatest science fiction books written, is one such example.

This episode is not, so much

marktheando
Nov 4, 2006

I did wonder about the other people on that plane.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

marktheando posted:

I did wonder about the other people on that plane.

One was a zygon, got what he deserved

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008

I really liked this one. The political message is rather wonky, but it does end with Zigella being put in an administrative position so her legitimate grievance isn't completely ignored, I guess. It would have been a lot easier for a lazy writer with less interest in a 'fair' ending to just have her dramatically die in a way that absolves everyone of guilt. It's optimistic and a bit naive but I'm willing to forgive that in Doctor Who.

The main thing is the performances. Capaldi and Coleman were both fantastic, and Clara influencing Zigella through the telepathic link that was meant to be reading her memories was just a great, cool thing for the character to get to do.

I also loved Osgood! The bit where she's talking about how if it was her, she'd shoot him twelve times before he could start talking, which she's thought of because she's a very big fan, is just pitch-perfect because that is absolutely the kind of silly nonsense Doctor Who fans love to talk about. I'm pretty sure I've seen that very thought in one of these threads at some point.

e: the five rounds rapid bit was a potentially good moment but terribly shot/edited. Kate needed to draw her gun in the same shot as the Zygon began to menace her so that we have direct continuity within the flashback, rather than what we get which is a pause and an awkward cut to her drawing it slowly and firing. The issue is you can't show people getting shot with bullets on Doctor Who, I guess, but there's got to be a better solution than that terrible two shot sequence.

Android Blues fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Nov 9, 2015

marktheando
Nov 4, 2006

The five rounds rapid bit was awful, they need to stop constantly reminding us how much cooler old UNIT were compared to these modern clowns.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!
Kate Stewart is awful.

marktheando
Nov 4, 2006

Rhyno posted:

Kate Stewart is awful.

When they said the Master was going to kill someone we care about last series, no really for real this time, I was so disappointed it wasn't Kate.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

marktheando posted:

When they said the Master was going to kill someone we care about last series, no really for real this time, I was so disappointed it wasn't Kate.

She was fun for like 45 seconds but the whole "My father was the head of UNIT so of course it's an inherited position" thing got old really fast.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!
Brigadier Bambera wouldn't take this poo poo

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!
...Group Captain Gilmore probably would though

marktheando
Nov 4, 2006

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Brigadier Bambera wouldn't take this poo poo

She was way cooler than Kate (the ultimate in faint praise).

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

marktheando posted:

When they said the Master was going to kill someone we care about last series, no really for real this time, I was so disappointed it wasn't Kate.

The hilariously typical part of that?

They completely and utterly undid it.

Like we all knew they'd rely on the fact that we didn't know which Osgood died and that they were likely going to play with the fact that there are two.

But now we just have both of them back again. So that whole thing about SOME ONE YOU LIKE IS GOING TO DIE was a load of bullshit in just about every single way possible. Way to undermine everything Doctor Who stick to that status quo!

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!
Why would they say that a character we like was going to die and then kill off Osgood?

marktheando
Nov 4, 2006

I don't think any horrendous UNIT thing can top cyberbrig or Lee Evans so at least the worst is behind us.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

marktheando posted:

I don't think any horrendous UNIT thing can top cyberbrig or Lee Evans so at least the worst is behind us.

Well now you've done it.

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

Burkion posted:

But now we just have both of them back again. So that whole thing about SOME ONE YOU LIKE IS GOING TO DIE was a load of bullshit in just about every single way possible. Way to undermine everything Doctor Who stick to that status quo!

Well now you have to wonder, "oh did the Master kill off a Zygon and knew it? Is that a good thing? Will she have to finish the job later so we have more Osgood?"

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Rhyno posted:

Why would they say that a character we like was going to die and then kill off Osgood?

Killing someone off we don't give a poo poo about is actually subversive by today's standards :v:

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.
So, I did like the last two episodes pretty well... but I also found Clara reminding me of a documentary about Owls I had just watched where they talked about how their abnormally massive eyes take up over 70% of their skull, leaving little space for the brain.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

XboxPants posted:

So, I did like the last two episodes pretty well... but I also found Clara reminding me of a documentary about Owls I had just watched where they talked about how their abnormally massive eyes take up over 70% of their skull, leaving little space for the brain.

Nah, that's not owls, that's anime characters you're thinking of.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

XboxPants posted:

So, I did like the last two episodes pretty well... but I also found Clara reminding me of a documentary about Owls I had just watched where they talked about how their abnormally massive eyes take up over 70% of their skull, leaving little space for the brain.

Pfft, owls. Come back when they're potoos.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010

marktheando posted:

I don't think any horrendous UNIT thing can top cyberbrig or Lee Evans so at least the worst is behind us.

Cyber brig was the most shockingly distasteful thing I've seen the BBC, and the way they aired it on Remembrance weekend makes me think they thought they were being respectful.

Picklepuss
Jul 12, 2002

Strom Cuzewon posted:

Cyber brig was the most shockingly distasteful thing I've seen the BBC, and the way they aired it on Remembrance weekend makes me think they thought they were being respectful.
I'm still looking forward to the spinoff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmsafe5d4oM

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

Strom Cuzewon posted:

Cyber brig was the most shockingly distasteful thing I've seen the BBC, and the way they aired it on Remembrance weekend makes me think they thought they were being respectful.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who was so bothered by it.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor

Forktoss posted:



I seem to remember I was super broke last Christmas and couldn't take part, but this year I should be able to scrimp and scramble up some cash for a present for an Internet stranger. Please take part if you're at all so inclined, everyone! It really is a lot of fun, and all the gifts I've seen people get have been great (especially the ones I've sent, obviously).

Don't sell your original creations short! As a former Santee of yours, the real gift was the cartoon you included, so don't worry too much about the cost of buying something.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



Short Synopsis: The Doctor meets some words nerds, one of whom is a turd.

Long Synopsis: The Doctor brings Peri to a linguistics conference to meet an old friend. The verbose find themselves restricted to a single nonsense word, as the shadow of a mythical "all-word" drives others to suicide, madness, and a desperate attempt to retain an individuality that might never have existed in the first place.

What's Good:
  • Colin Baker. Every individual actor who plays the Doctor brings something unique to the role, it has been to the show's great benefit that to date the casting has never really gone wrong. For the longest time, perhaps the only exception to that rule was that people would qualify it with,"Well.... except for Colin Baker." Baker took over the role at a very dark time for the show, hobbled right out of the gates and suffering many indignities during his brief and often unlamented run as the title character. For years people who defended Baker pointed out all the behind the scenes (and on-screen!) issues that he had to deal with, but there was always a sense that they were excuses, that the fact of the matter was he was miscast and unsuited to the role. Big Finish changed all that, as Baker got to jump back into the role without many of the handicaps that had marked his on-screen time, and he quickly became a favorite of the listeners. ...ish is a story where this shines the most, as Baker dives enthusiastically into the role with a gusto that is to be admired, and gives a performance that makes the whole story worth listening to even if the rest of it was no good (happily, most of the rest of it is quite good!). I can't think of any other Doctor that could have made the story as written work anywhere near as well as Baker does - the stuffy setting, the absent-minded academics, nervous bureaucrats and quasi-anarchic para-students.... the Sixth Doctor is right at home with them all, reveling in playing off against them, and more importantly in eagerly taking part in the linguistic lunacy. To me, there is a sense that Baker loved the script, that the chance for lengthy dissertations on the nature of language and words appealed greatly to his desire to perform. There is something wonderful about hearing a talented actor embrace their role/the script with such obvious enthusiasm, and that is what Colin Baker brings to this story.

  • Nicola Bryant. Given how strong a performance Baker gives, it would be easy for Bryant's Peri to be overshadowed or tucked away into a smaller supporting role and getting very little to do. Happily this is not the case at all, the script quite neatly divides up the time between her and Baker, separating them and giving Peri more than enough to do herself. From her casual flirting with a young "student" in the school cafe, to making use of her botany knowledge to hold her own in a fun little game of linguistics, to getting talked into a casual prank that suddenly turns dark, to developing a bond with the computer A.I, to assisting the conference organizer as they attempt to shut down the means for the "...ish" infection to spread - Peri has a ton of stuff to do, a ton of stuff to say, and plenty of space in which to do it all. Bryant sure as hell isn't phoning it in, she's proactive and engaged from start to finish and the progression through events feels natural and not at all rushed. The story manages to easily fit both her and the Doctor's parallel storylines into its runtime without feeling cramped - it's a credit to writer Phil Pascoe, who sadly has only a couple of other pieces of Doctor Who writing on his resume.

  • The "A.I". The idea of an artificial intelligence (which may or may not go wrong) in sci-fi is hardly new, so the presence of "Book" in this story almost immediately gives the viewer the sense that they know what is inevitably going to happen. Happily this is somewhat subverted, as Book turns out to be both more complex and far more simple than the generic "A.I" seen in most stories. The term A.I even today is thrown around willy-nilly with no real sense of what that actually means, and Book proves an exception in this case when it confides to Peri that the term is incorrectly applied - it is a highly complex program but nothing more than that, it simply reacts according to its programming to an enormous set of variables. In one particularly :smith: line it notes that all it can do is put on a good show, it doesn't actually really understand/know/apply any meaning whatsoever to anything it is saying - it is just outputting data. Which makes the way the story progresses all the more fascinating, as the listener (or at least myself) is left wondering whether Book is just being anthropomorphized through familiarity/wishful thinking, or it it is actually beginning to "wake up" and develop a rudimentary (but erudite!) consciousness of its own. When directly compared to another, far "freer" A.I, Book comes across as the more measured, thoughtful and "learning" by comparison. Technically less advanced than its "brother", Book has the advantage of being completely aware of its own limitations, which in turn helps it to overcome them. A scene where it explains to the Doctor how it is resisting the "...ish" infection is rather brilliant in its simplicity - the word is repeating in people's head to the point that it becomes meaningless, driving them to obsessive repetition. So Book carefully measures and meters out meaning, by noting when the word is becoming just a meaningless repetition of a single syllable and then strictly applying a new meaning from its databank of obscure or outdated definitions. Each time allows it a few minutes or hours of retaining control of its faculties, and the process of puzzling out solutions to its conundrums seems to help in its apparent growth of consciousness. By the end of the story, there is a sense that Book is very much a person in its own right.... or to put it in linguistic terms, a new definition of what a person can be.

  • The "swearing". For a story all about linguistics, there is a rather brief but hilarious section where the Doctor applies "censorship" earbuds to Peri's ears to prevent her from being infected by the "...ish". The high-minded becomes lowbrow in a sequence where the dialogue could easily be misconstrued for a network airing of an HBO show. It also gives Peri the opportunity to (probably) say,"We're hosed!" for the first time in Doctor Who history. :xd:

What's Not:

  • Death. Events are kicked off by the death of the old associate the Doctor is coming to visit. This death is handled very poorly, there is confusion over whether it is a suicide or a homicide, but regardless of which the body is rather unceremoniously left to rot in its office, with the barest lip-service paid by both the Doctor and the bureaucrat in charge of the Conference of contacting the authorities or actually showing any respect to the body. A later scene where the Doctor effectively reconstructs the personality of the deceased for a final conversation is a further indignity that serves only to make the rather callous treatment stand out more. Then towards the end of the story, there is a very confusing section where the personality of the victim seemingly returns to life, though whether as an agent of the "...ish" or through some unexpected consequence of the Doctor's actions or not is unclear. It smacks of an effort to write a "happy" ending for the character, a character who we saw so little of to begin with that their return really strikes no emotional chord at all, and serves only to confuse.

  • Dropped threads/red herrings. Throughout the story, a number of plot threads are introduced and then either unceremoniously dropped or turn out to be misunderstandings/red herrings. These include the anarchic undertakings of a "student"; the revelation of the relationship between the conference organizer and said student; or the hurried explanation of how the infection's point of origin was during some other trip Book and the academic were on before the story actually started. But the most puzzling is the section where the Doctor and Peri spot the TARDIS and don't know what it is. It's a brief section about halfway through the story and, thrown together with some lines about the "...ish" trying to spread out throughout the English language, as well as the Doctor talking about his natural immunity and his puzzlement as to why Peri was unaffected, gave me the sense that the TARDIS was what the "...ish" was truly after and it (or the Doctor's subconscious) knew this and had taken steps to cut it off. But then at the end of the story when all has been resolved, they simply return to the TARDIS where Peri casually reminds the Doctor what it is called and they just get in and dematerialize without another word. Was this a red herring? A potential plot thread that got forgotten/mostly edited out of the script? It stands out like dog's balls, and the lack of any kind of resolution was very confusing.

  • An anti-climactic ending. The story moves along at a very good pace and gives all the characters something to do.... but then it just kind of ends. All the characters are put into place, the "villain" looks set for his comeuppance, the Doctor has figured everything out.... and then it all just kind of wraps up unceremoniously and everybody goes on about their business. It's a very weak ending to a very strong story. Not a bad ending by any means, but not a good one either. It just.... ends.

Final Thoughts:

...ish is a wonderful story, one that captured my imagination almost right from the beginning and never really let up. The setting doesn't exactly sound like riveting stuff - a linguistics conference - but it is used to great effect, making for some wonderful dialogue between various characters that more than make up for any shortfalls in the actual plot. It does an excellent job of pacing the story right up to an unfortunately anti-climactic ending, and it manages to give both Colin Baker and Nicola Bryant equal measure, both are given plenty to do and each carries their side of the story admirably. That said, this is a Colin Baker audio through and through, none of the other Doctors could have pulled off a story like this without some heavy rewriting, and he dives in headfirst and goes to town on the linguistic fun of it all with an enthusiasm that is as infectious as the nonsensical word "....ish" itself. Despite the weak ending, dropped threads, and a rather unfortunate callous attitude towards a death, I recommend this story highly. It was an utter joy to listen to.

Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Nov 9, 2015

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Strom Cuzewon posted:

Cyber brig was the most shockingly distasteful thing I've seen the BBC, and the way they aired it on Remembrance weekend makes me think they thought they were being respectful.

The only way they could ever justify what a lovely idea it was, is if they just go full tilt and have CyberBrig be a thing that happens every season or so. That would be aces.

Otherwise gently caress everything.

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After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor

Lampsacus posted:

I was thinking about this during the episode. I think its because he doesn't have as long lines. He is great at pacing around the room working monologues but the short punchy lines of the Doctor don't run with his style so well.
EDIT: While I'm here, may you guys recommend any Classic serials where the Doctor went to strange places? E-Space, that fairy tale land. Settings 'outside the universe' or at least really really bizarre. I'm a huge fan of those sort of things in Doctor Who. How weird does it get?

Scherzo :getin:

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