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BottleKnight
Sep 1, 2008



Welcome to the Mafia New Game Announcement & Sandbox Thread!
the previous announcement thread

If you are new to mafia we'd love to have you learn about it and participate! Either jump into one of the recruiting games on the most recent page of the thread, ask in the thread about any recently opened or upcoming games, or read the informational parts of this OP if you are unsure! Thanks!

Alternatively, if you are a prospective mod, the second post should help you get setup. See what I did there?

=======================================

Purpose of this thread

This thread is for discussing anything mafia! Mafia setups, previous mafia games, helping prospective mods to craft their own game, announcing said games once they are recruiting, anything! It is not for off-topic chat with the larger mafia community, take that to the Mafia Discussion Thread.

Resources

The SA Mafia Wiki: Easily the best place to learn about our communityís rules, common roles, and see a (somewhat) complete archive of most games ever played on SA. Registrations are currently closed, so if your game has finished and needs to be archived, you should be able to post it here, in the Discussion Thread, or just PM me or something. Registrations are sometimes open, but it depends, due to spambots.

Votefinder: An indelible part of SA Mafia, it is a website that is used in every game played to track current votes. It has many useful features, such as formatting the current votecount for posting, and hosting an image that can be placed in a gameís OP that automatically updates with the current votecount. Make sure to make an account that links to your SA account if you plan to run a game. It is maintained by MMM Whatchya Say who took it over from developer and longtime host soru.

We also, as a community, have many things set up such as a skype group, fantasy movie league, fantasy football league, secret santa, etc, but all of those things are talked about and maintained in the Mafia Discussion Thread.

What the hell is Mafia?

If you are more visually inclined and still have Flash installed for some reason, this thingy may be for you! Otherwise read ahead!

Mafia was originally a party game, and is sometimes known as Werewolf, that has been adapted to a Play by Post system on the forums. In this game two factions battle each other to control the game. The Mafia (commonly called "scum" on SA) are an informed minority while the Town are the uninformed majority. Mafia players know the identities of each other and usually are able to communicate privately and secretly. Town players do not know who else is town and cannot communicate with anyone privately, but as a whole they outnumber the mafia players by roughly 3 to 1. The goal of the town is to eliminate all mafia, while the goal of the mafia players is reach parity with the number of town players. Both mafia and town often have special roles which will aide them in accomplishing their goals. There also may be players who are neither town nor mafia, called Third Party or 3P, who may have alternate win conditions such as surviving until the end of the game or being the only person left alive.

Mafia games have a moderator who is in charge of creating the game's story and roles. They will post in the discussion thread and the New Game Announcement thread that they have opened a game for a certain number of signups. After the amount of people they want sign up they will private message each player with a role. This role contains information about that person's alignment (mafia, town, or 3P), any extra powers they have, and often some sort of information about their character in the story.

Once the game begins it is divided into two phases: Day and Night.

During the day phase, all players discuss in the game thread who they believe is a member of the mafia, and then vote for that person. Our forums has a vote bot which tallies votes that are formatted ##vote Playername. Once one person has received a majority of the votes, that player is hanged and removed from the game. They can no longer participate in the thread or in any private communications they had access to while alive. The moderator will post that person's alignment and role in the thread and end the day phase.

Once in night phase, there is no voting, and conversation may or may not be prohibited depending on the moderator. During this phase, the mafia choose someone to kill. As well, any extra powers that a player may have can be used. There are many possible powers, and moderators often come up with new ones, but there are several common ones such as Cop, who can learn the alignment of one other player each night; Doctor, who can protect one player each night from being killed; or Tracker, who can track another player and learn about any targets they visit. Mafia may have powers such as roleblocker, who can prevent another player from using their special powers for a night. After all actions have been received by the moderator and processed, they will announce who has died during the night and begin the next day phase where the cycle begins again. This continues until one faction has reached their win condition and the game ends in victory for Town, mafia, and/or 3P.

While these are standard rules, there can be a lot of variation in setup. Almost all of these can and have been broken in one game or another.

==============================

F.A.Q. for newer players
  • How do I sign up for a game?
  • Any games that are looking for signups will be listed in this OP, just scroll up a bit! Then just post in that game thread. If there are no games that are looking for signups feel free to ask if any games are starting. There are a lot of people who want to mod games and have setups ready to go, but are waiting to make sure there are enough people who want to play.

  • Can I join any game?
  • Absolutely, but read the OP of the game you are signing up for. There are some that are more complicated or unconventional than others and may not be the best type of game to play if it's your first time. Mods will usually list what sort of game they are going for in the OP, but if you are unsure, just ask!

  • What if I want to mod a game myself?
  • Go ahead! If you have modding questions or have a cool idea but aren't sure how to implement it, this is precisely the thread for you! Ask if you need some brainstorming ideas, or just someone to check over a setup for you. People are more than willing to help with balance for people who are just starting out. If you want to give modding a try but aren't comfortable balancing a game from scratch there are a couple of newbie setups to help you get your feet wet. There is also a votefinder tutorial following this post.

  • I am really bad at this game How do I improve?
  • Sorry, toots. Can't relate. *pulls out cigarette, puts in mouth* *remembers his crippling asthma, spits cigarette out* Everyone is bad at mafia. Just hang in there. Everyone has different opinions on how to get better, but CCKeane has the best advice of anyone on this: 'Mafia is as fun as you make it.' If it's somehow turned into some sort of brooding chore, try to change your disposition towards the next game and buck up, chuck.

  • Someone said something mean and it hurt my emotions.
  • This is a game of deception and so people are going to be throwing around a lot of accusations. People may also be pushing you in order to test your reaction and see if you are town. This game does require a thick skin. but sometimes this can go too far and get personal. Remember that most of the time the game is just a game. People will be calling each other idiots and jerks in one game, and then chatting in the discussion thread 5 minutes later like nothing happened. That said, we are all friends here and if someone is genuinely upsetting, you should tell them (or the game's moderator) and that can help. Sometimes just walking away from the computer for a while is all it takes.

  • What does hammer or mean?
  • Hammer refers to when someone has reached the majority threshold to get hanged and end the day. The person who puts them over the top is said to have hammered them. Unless the mod has explicitly said otherwise, all conversation should immediately stop when someone hammers and the players should wait for the mod to post.

  • Oh god! Itís all going wrong! Itís all going so, so wrong!


  • Did you steal 90% of this OP from Asiina?
  • :bernget:

Helpful Links:
  • Mafiascum.net: Has a huge archive of games you can browse through, and you can play games there if you don't mind the (rather) slow pace.
  • Mafiascum wiki: They also have their own wiki with a list of various roles for inspiration. Note that these roles may be different from the standard on SA.
  • Role Spreadsheet: A spreadsheet compiled by SA forums user Met details lots and lots of different roles, with information about different classes of roles.
  • Random.org sequence generator: It's the easiest way for moderators to randomly assign roles.
  • Time zone converter: Very useful for international players (most mafia players are in North America).

BottleKnight fucked around with this message at Dec 21, 2017 around 03:52

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BottleKnight
Sep 1, 2008



Mafia Sandbox Zone

This thread is meant to be a resource for prospective mods, yet I am very lazy so I have compiled others' work here for you, the prospective mod! If anyone posts something pretty good, I'll try to append it here and make this a sort of living document for how to make a game of mafia.

Asiina posted:

The Wonderful World of Votefinder

Votefinder is our tallying system on SA for mafia games and it has a whole bunch of very cool features!

How to make a game

1) Make a thread in The Game Room with Mafia in the title.

2) Make an account or Log in to Votefinder.

3) Go to Add a Game

4) Votefinder should list all current Mafia games in TGR. Choose yours and click the link to assign you as the moderator.

5) Once you have a page that looks like this, you're all done!



Important features

Most of votefinder is pretty self-explanatory, but there are a few features to note for first time moderators

How to change your playerlist

When you first ask votefinder to find your thread it's going to list everyone who has posted in that thread as part of the player list.

You'll want to take out people who aren't playing by dragging them to the spectator column.



Also remember to move players from living to dead before opening the next day.

Posting the Votecount

On the votecount tab you will see the current votecount for that day.



All players can see this tab and the box to manually copy and paste the current votecount, but only the moderator can use the "Post Votecount" button to make votefinder post. After this button has been pressed it will be unavailable for an hour.

The post votecount button makes votefinder post what the current votecount is, but you can also have an automatically updating picture of the votecount by clicking this button at the top of the page.



Put this in your OP (usually right at the top) so that your players can automatically check the votecount at any time without having to go to votefinder.

Finally, always make sure to post the votecount at the end of the day after someone has been hammered (they have reached the threshold to be hanged) since votefinder resets the votecount at the beginning of a new day. Knowing how everyone was voting at the end of the day is very important to town.

Making a playerlist

Under "Tools" votefinder will automatically create a playerlist that links each name to that player's post history in the thread.



This is an absolutely essential tool for your players as they will frequently be checking people's post histories. Replace your handmade player list during signups with this as soon as the game starts.

Closing your game

Always close your game!!! This will remove it from the active games list, so that list doesn't become cluttered and give you a wiki code for the victory. You'll need to register an account at the wiki to post it there. If for whatever reason you can't register, post the information in the thread and someone will add it for you. Just be sure to change (something) to whichever team won.



Making a Template

By default, votefinder posts look like this.



If you want votefinder to say something different or give different information you can change how votefinder will post by making a template. To do so click on your name and go to "My Templates"



From there you can go in and change text, how votes are displayed, what information is displayed, and so on. Click Show Instructions if you want to be sure you're not going to break it.



That's basically all there is to know about votefinder. It's a simple but invaluable tool when moderating a game.

EccoRaven posted:

Modding A Game: Dos and Don'ts and What Am I Even Doing

So you want to mod a game of mafia! The most important thing to know is the basics: how the mechanics of different roles work and how they affect each other in tandem. For instance, a Cop is a standard town role, as well as a Doctor. But if the Cop claims, the Doctor can protect the Cop while the Cop investigates and clears players, meaning the Mafia can only stop the Cop once they find and stop the Doctor! This makes the game a lot harder for the Mafia than the moderator might have otherwise intended. However, giving the Mafia a Roleblocker or Godfather are helpful ways to organize the game so that, in case the Cop and Doc team up, the Mafia aren't left totally high and dry.

Ultimately you want a game that's balanced: a game where everyone has an equal chance of winning the game through roles alone, meaning players win or lose based solely on luck and skill. General pointers and balancing strategies:
  • The Mafia are always at an inherent advantage over the town because they alone already know everyone's alignment and have a team of players to rely upon. One Goon should be considered the equivalent of 2 or 3 Vanilla Townies for balancing purposes.

  • It can be tempting to fill your game with plenty of roles and powers, but doing so makes the game a lot more chaotic, making it that much harder to keep a game balanced.

  • Beware roles working in tandem; the above Cop-Doc combo is one example, but a Watcher-Doc combo can be even more devastating for the Mafia without the proper counters.

  • It is common practice to give the Mafia a role to dodge each town power role: a Roleblocker against a Doctor, a Godfather against a Cop, etc. Be careful with this however, since if you essentially nullify all the town's power roles, the Mafia - with their inherent advantage over the town - will steamroll the game.

  • Ask yourself: "what if everything goes absolutely right for the town. How quickly would the game be over? What if for the scum?" If your answer is "the game could end before Day 3," your setup is probably not balanced - dumb down some of the power roles or take a mafioso or two away.

  • Also try to avoid a game that "plays itself." It's hard to describe what that is precisely, but it's easy to describe what it's not. Player agency should be tantamount - the game should be decided based on what the players do, the alliances they form, the posts they make and the cases they produce. If a game lacks agency, it's a less fun game.

  • Finally, don't be afraid to experiment! Especially if you're a newer mod, people will be very forgiving if you make an imbalanced game, even more so if they had a lot of fun playing it. Without experimentation games get dull and repetitive. But the best game is one that has new elements combined with solid, predictable balance: that's what you should strive for.
If you are someone interested in running a setup by an experienced set of eyes, feel free to message any of the following mafia players, who have in the past been more than willing to offer advice and guidance:

- Opopanax
- CapitalistPig
- Asiina
- MMM Whatchya Say
- eccotheraven


Good luck!!

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

devil on your shoulder





Clever Betty

other jargon that may be helpful to new players: the "flip" is when a player dies and the mod reveals their alignment. such a player is said to be "flipped." This often the only way alignment is truly confirmed. "Claim" is word that has specific meaning in a game, it means to identify what your own role is. A "softclaim" is an allusion to having a role, a "hardclaim" is specifically saying that you have a role.

Lumpen
Apr 2, 2004

There is no truth beyond magic.


Let's try SLACK! This is a new experimental Mafia game experience and I need 13 brave volunteers. Rather than being played on the forum, this game instead will play out over the team communication platform Slack. There can be multiple communication and discussion channels, emoji reactions to posts, automated statistics, indexing of namedrops, searchable text, and who knows what other new ways to play will emerge...

Players should install the Slack app on their mobile devices, and use the slack page to play. I have no experience with Slack and I have no idea whether it will be awesome or terrible as a platform for Mafia! There's no better way to find out than to just try.

Slack Mafia #1 is a flavorless open-setup Mafia game for 13 players. There will be a Town Cop, a Town Doctor, 8 Vanilla Townies, a Scum Godfather, a Scum Roleblocker, and a Scum Goon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6zVzWU95Sw

Signup thread is here!

Lumpen fucked around with this message at Sep 25, 2015 around 14:13

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


I am announcing a new

ECCO GAME

A thread will be made and signups will be taken on Monday of next week. Since it's me it'll probably start sometime Q1 2016.

The theme is "dragons."

It will probably be a big game but it might be a mini stay tuned.

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

PONYTAR
PONYTAR
PONYTAR




Captain Foo posted:

other jargon that may be helpful to new players: the "flip" is when a player dies and the mod reveals their alignment. such a player is said to be "flipped." This often the only way alignment is truly confirmed. "Claim" is word that has specific meaning in a game, it means to identify what your own role is. A "softclaim" is an allusion to having a role, a "hardclaim" is specifically saying that you have a role.

Perhaps a vocab section in the OP would be useful?

Lumpen
Apr 2, 2004

There is no truth beyond magic.

Rarity posted:

Perhaps a vocab section in the OP would be useful?
lynch (lĭnch)
v. To execute without due process of law, especially to hang, as by a mob.
etymology
1835, from earlier Lynch law (1811), likely named after William Lynch (1742-1820) of Pittsylvania, Virginia, who c. 1780 led a vigilance committee to keep order there during the Revolution. Other sources trace the name to Charles Lynch (1736-1796) a Virginia magistrate who fined and imprisoned Tories in his district c. 1782, but the connection to him is less likely. Originally any sort of summary justice, especially by flogging; narrowing of focus to "extralegal execution by hanging" is 20c. Lynch mob is attested from 1838.

This is the word we use in Mafia to describe the removal of a player from the game at the end of a game day, usually by majority vote.

imgay
May 12, 2014

The exorcism was a success. The cancer cleansed. Life begins anew.


Very informative thread, rated 5

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

devil on your shoulder





Clever Betty

Rarity posted:

Perhaps a vocab section in the OP would be useful?

Probably!!

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Rarity posted:

Perhaps a vocab section in the OP would be useful?

I think the wiki covers most common vocab really well, and I suspect Foo just wanted to make a first post without saying "first post yeah woo."

Lumpen posted:

lynch (lĭnch)

Note also that many players also use variations like "execution," "hang," and the humorous "plorp" and "cuddle", since the word "lynch" has a lot of really nasty racial baggage, especially in a US context.

=====

I have a genuine question about alignment-changing roles and I am wondering if you all can help me. As a mod whose games more resembles stories than games, I like alignment-changing roles very much, but it seems to be mixed reaction from players. Some are okay with them, others hate them a lot. I know the few times I've changed alignment it's affected me in different ways depending on a few factors. What would be the best way - if any - for you to have an alignment-changing role be palatable?

Generally I try to keep alignment-changes some variation of:
- In addition to your original win condition (e.g. someone becomes an original-alignment survivor);
- One that is not inherently exclusive to your original condition (e.g. a vanilla town becoming an SK);
- A result of the player's actions in-game;
- Can "wear off" after a time or event (e.g. a player dying returns to their original alignment);
- If recruited, severely limited in focus (e.g., recruitments on power roles are just a normal nightkill, certain vanillas are protected, etc.)

I know many people take a hard-line stance against alignment-changers and it's very understandable why. But if there is a way to "do" them that most people can enjoy, I would like to figure it out.

What have been your experiences with alignment-changers?!

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

We're leaving her behind.


Grimey Drawer

Additions that don't change the original alignment may be alright but add something extra might be alright, but I hate outright alignment changes. It can really mess with the game and town's strongest weapon of going back to look for connections. You don't know when someone changed and what that change did to them, so it makes things very difficult. A specific example I can only sorta remember is Ernie being town and changing to scum, but I could not believe that scum Ernie would behave a certain way D1 and D2, and I was right, since he wasn't scum then.

If you're going to have true alignment change it needs to be announced as a mechanic at the beginning of the game so town can adjust, but I still would prefer it not existing at all.

Pinterest Mom
Jun 9, 2009



Asiina posted:

You don't know when someone changed and what that change did to them, so it makes things very difficult. A specific example I can only sorta remember is Ernie being town and changing to scum, but I could not believe that scum Ernie would behave a certain way D1 and D2, and I was right, since he wasn't scum then.

That was Secret Invasion! Scum got to flip a townie instead of the nk every other night. It kinda made the game unwinnable for town.

Ernie was a public daycop who had outed a scum, so he was very strongly confirmed as town, and him getting flipped to scum was really unfair. He became an insane public daycop when flipped.

Pinterest Mom fucked around with this message at Sep 24, 2015 around 17:46

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

devil on your shoulder





Clever Betty

How would you feel about some sort of ambiguous mod announcement when it happened, perhaps tied into flavor? This would indicate that something happened to that player, but not necessarily what.

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

devil on your shoulder





Clever Betty

EccoRaven posted:

I think the wiki covers most common vocab really well, and I suspect Foo just wanted to make a first post without saying "first post yeah woo."

i did want to firstpost but i was also addressing a couple of things that came up in the previous game i played, which had a bunch of new players in it!

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Asiina posted:

It can really mess with the game and town's strongest weapon of going back to look for connections.
Agreed, though I think balance is a separate (but intimately related) issue to "is it fun for the player." Though something like this:

Pinterest Mom posted:

That was Secret Invasion! Scum got to flip a townie instead of the nk every other night. It kinda made the game unwinnable for town.
at a glance seems like a great way for it to be fun for nobody and super unbalanced.

Captain Foo posted:

How would you feel about some sort of ambiguous mod announcement when it happened, perhaps tied into flavor? This would indicate that something happened to that player, but not necessarily what.
People are hit or miss whether they read flavor at all. Some people skip over it and just look at the bolded results (even if the flavor tells a totally different story). Others read every word and then extrapolate a massive (incorrect) vision of the setup from it. That might be good in general re: balancing but it'd need something more consistently reliable I think.


==

Captain Foo posted:

i did want to firstpost but i was also addressing a couple of things that came up in the previous game i played, which had a bunch of new players in it!

oh cool! then I am (as we all already knew) just a jerk.

CapitalistPig
Nov 3, 2005

You turn the corner and see a greenskinned fuckmidget.
Roll for initiative.

Alignment change chat:

I am actually currently making a setup that will be a direct sequel to "This mod is a Liar" I am calling it "This mod is a bastard" and making it all modified Bastard roles, one of which is going to be an alignment changer of some kind I just haven't worked out the specifics yet but I was thinking along the lines of a 3p who needs to change people's alignments 3 times in order to win but only certain people in the game are able to have their alignments changed and they would be sort of blank slate 3p's that would get a different power based on whether or not they were changed to scum or town.

Lumpen
Apr 2, 2004

There is no truth beyond magic.

Alignment changes are one of the biggest game-ruiners, after death-millers.

The known possibility of alignment changes make every day more like a D1, because past posts and votes can't be used to judge present alignment.
If the alignment changing is not known from the OP, it just makes the game a mess and frustrating to people trying to draw coherent conclusions.

That's from the point of view of someone trying to scumhunt in an alignment changing scenario. For someone who is the recipient of an alignment change, it's even worse.

In my experience, having my own alignment changed midgame is one of the most annoying things that can happen in a game. It makes all the effort put into the original win condition feel like a complete waste of time. The new win condition usually doesn't feel very appealing, and it's hard to feel loyal to the people who have inflicted it on you. Working against the win condition of all your previous posts in the thread is an unfair and unfun burden.

Alignment changing makes the outcome of the game more random and unsatisfying, leads to sour grapes and devalues player effort. It creates a lot of reason for players to avoid posting and engaging, and creates a lot of situations that tend to shut down posting and thread momentum, and make it impossible to make logical progress through player reasoning or logical analysis. Just a fountain of the unfun kind of WIFOM.

It should never be used unless it's very clearly announced in the OP so players have a fair chance to avoid the game.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

We're leaving her behind.


Grimey Drawer

Captain Foo posted:

How would you feel about some sort of ambiguous mod announcement when it happened, perhaps tied into flavor? This would indicate that something happened to that player, but not necessarily what.

That may just bring suspicion onto a player where there was none before, which isn't fair to the team doing the alignment changing.

Although, unintentional,. I did sorta like the public cult that PMom and ANarc had Pummeling in Pimonia. I think it wasn't great in that game since it was a pro-town cult and the scum team got a little screwed, but having something like a public unkillable cult recruiter in the game might be an interesting mechanic, and then it's a race against time for town. Having no scum team but the recruit as an alternative to the nightkill would be interesting since the only deaths would be from lynches.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Asiina posted:

I did sorta like the public cult that PMom and ANarc had Pummeling in Pimonia.

I think that was Misery in Madriu actually. The main reason it turned into a hard situation for the scum though was the cult faction accidentally fullclaiming day 1 and the town accepting them wholeheartedly. I never anticipated that when designing the setup.

Pinterest Mom
Jun 9, 2009



Asiina posted:

That may just bring suspicion onto a player where there was none before, which isn't fair to the team doing the alignment changing.

Although, unintentional,. I did sorta like the public cult that PMom and ANarc had Pummeling in Pimonia. I think it wasn't great in that game since it was a pro-town cult and the scum team got a little screwed, but having something like a public unkillable cult recruiter in the game might be an interesting mechanic, and then it's a race against time for town. Having no scum team but the recruit as an alternative to the nightkill would be interesting since the only deaths would be from lynches.

There were like 8 scum in that 20ish player game, 5 scum and 3 in a second anti-cult faction. I don't think the setup was skewed in favour of the cult, especially given that, unbeknownst to us, if we tried to recruit scum three times the entire cult died.

I loved that game and I think it was a successful alignment-change setup.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

We're leaving her behind.


Grimey Drawer

EccoRaven posted:

I think that was Misery in Madriu actually. The main reason it turned into a hard situation for the scum though was the cult faction accidentally fullclaiming day 1 and the town accepting them wholeheartedly. I never anticipated that when designing the setup.

It was. I had both game threads open because I couldn't remember, and then said the wrong one.

JakeP
Apr 27, 2003


Lipstick Apathy

alliance changing is bad in mafia, unless you are playing some kind of mafia-like designed and balanced around it where the players know ahead of time they are not playing mafia

Pinterest Mom
Jun 9, 2009



EccoRaven posted:

I think that was Misery in Madriu actually. The main reason it turned into a hard situation for the scum though was the cult faction accidentally fullclaiming day 1 and the town accepting them wholeheartedly. I never anticipated that when designing the setup.

Oh and also scum never tried to nk us until like N4, and by that time it was too late.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

We're leaving her behind.


Grimey Drawer

Pinterest Mom posted:

There were like 8 scum in that 20ish player game, 5 scum and 3 in a second anti-cult faction. I don't think the setup was skewed in favour of the cult, especially given that, unbeknownst to us, if we tried to recruit scum three times the entire cult died.

I loved that game and I think it was a successful alignment-change setup.

You were part of the original cult and had full control of that mechanic though, and if we're talking about what is fun for the players, as someone who was on the other end of that, it was very frustrating as scum. We thought we were playing a very good game and had set ourselves up for victory, but the alignment changing being pro-town and accepted by town completely negated all of our effort otherwise.

If it was something we had known about at the beginning of the game we would have played very differently, but it seemed that by the time we figured out the setup of the game, it was too late to do anything about it because of the number of people who had been confirmed town by the cult. It felt like the setup beat us rather than the players.

So I feel it's a pretty good example of how having an alignment change that's not announced is something that is really bad for the overall experience.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

We're leaving her behind.


Grimey Drawer

Pinterest Mom posted:

Oh and also scum never tried to nk us until like N4, and by that time it was too late.

Because once again, we didn't understand what was happening. We didn't see the threat until it was too late to do anything about it.

Pinterest Mom
Jun 9, 2009



Asiina posted:

You were part of the original cult and had full control of that mechanic though,

We didn't! The cult recruit power was just called "empower", we didn't know it was a recruitment power until we finally recruited someone successfully on N3. It failed N1 and N2 and we were just told "unable to empower because not town".

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

We're leaving her behind.


Grimey Drawer

I don't really want to argue about that game in particular, but the question was asked how do people feel about alignment-changing, and I'm saying I don't like it, and citing that game as an example as to why. It was quite unfun to play against and as Lumpen said, it makes what happens before feel pointless and frustrates you if you're converted because why should I care about this alignment that I've now been forced into.

I think the only exceptions are when it is known at the beginning of the game so people can know what to expect, and then whether it is called mafia at that point is debatable.

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

devil on your shoulder





Clever Betty

EccoRaven posted:

Agreed, though I think balance is a separate (but intimately related) issue to "is it fun for the player." Though something like this:

at a glance seems like a great way for it to be fun for nobody and super unbalanced.

People are hit or miss whether they read flavor at all. Some people skip over it and just look at the bolded results (even if the flavor tells a totally different story). Others read every word and then extrapolate a massive (incorrect) vision of the setup from it. That might be good in general re: balancing but it'd need something more consistently reliable I think.


==


oh cool! then I am (as we all already knew) just a jerk.

I was thinking a bolded flavor thing, e.g. i had a 1-shot deathproof player in one of my games; when that player otherwise would have died, the thread got the notice e.g. EccoRaven was gravely wounded Night 2!

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Asiina posted:

I don't really want to argue about that game in particular
Well I do think that game should be discussed, since I think it was an interesting look at how a certain kind of alignment-changer can work in practice in a game.

For those who don't want to read it (fair), merk had a power where he could target a player in the game and, if they were town they would have their alignment changed to: "Wins with the town AND if merk is alive at endgame." Upon flip their alignments read (town revolution-aligned).

The players recruited didn't seem to mind the change, but as Asiina notes it was bad for the scum since eventually the cult-players had enough numbers (and credibility among the town) to convince the town to vote out everyone non-cult.

Which is kinda crazy when you think about it!!

Captain Foo posted:

I was thinking a bolded flavor thing, e.g. i had a 1-shot deathproof player in one of my games; when that player otherwise would have died, the thread got the notice e.g. EccoRaven was gravely wounded Night 2!

So would the town be told "Captain Foo was visited by Hal Incandenza" the next day or something? And then if/when Hal dies and flips cult recruiter the town has their work cut out for them?

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

We're leaving her behind.


Grimey Drawer

I just meant I don't want to argue about whether that game was balanced anymore. PMom thinks it was, I think it wasn't. I think like you said it's important to note whether players are having fun, and I dd not have fun, and it was primarily the result of that mechanic.

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

devil on your shoulder





Clever Betty

EccoRaven posted:

So would the town be told "Captain Foo was visited by Hal Incandenza" the next day or something? And then if/when Hal dies and flips cult recruiter the town has their work cut out for them?

perhaps, or something less direct, like EccoRaven had an unusual encounter! Just something that can be pointed to as an indicator that something happened, to avoid

Asiina posted:

A specific example I can only sorta remember is Ernie being town and changing to scum, but I could not believe that scum Ernie would behave a certain way D1 and D2, and I was right, since he wasn't scum then.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

We're leaving her behind.


Grimey Drawer

EccoRaven posted:


So would the town be told "Captain Foo was visited by Hal Incandenza" the next day or something? And then if/when Hal dies and flips cult recruiter the town has their work cut out for them?

As the person who got recruited, that would feel terribly unfair.

kumba
Nov 8, 2003


enjoy the ride


Lipstick Apathy

I think a single person being able to change their alignment is fine as long as they're made aware of the possibility in advance, but in general I think alignment changes en masse are not likely to be a good idea due to reasons already stated

An example role of one person changing alignments was the Chameleon role I used in Lizards Mafia, wherein Ernie would, upon being targeted by any role, PGO-kill the person who targeted him and steal their role and alignment

I think it worked out pretty well but it's a role that adds quite a bit of swing to a setup for sure

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Captain Foo posted:

perhaps, or something less direct, like EccoRaven had an unusual encounter! Just something that can be pointed to as an indicator that something happened, to avoid

Ooo I'm really digging this.

My game coming up does not have an alignment-changing mechanic in it as a general FYI but I think something like this might resolve a lot of people's issues re:balance and I am considering using something like it if I ever use an alignment-changer again.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

We're leaving her behind.


Grimey Drawer

Kumbamontu posted:

I think a single person being able to change their alignment is fine as long as they're made aware of the possibility in advance, but in general I think alignment changes en masse are not likely to be a good idea due to reasons already stated

An example role of one person changing alignments was the Chameleon role I used in Lizards Mafia, wherein Ernie would, upon being targeted by any role, PGO-kill the person who targeted him and steal their role and alignment

I think it worked out pretty well but it's a role that adds quite a bit of swing to a setup for sure

I think that would be a fun way to do it, since the person changing is fully aware of it at the beginning of the game.

It does still lead to situations where early game and late game could not match because of that alignment change, but with only one person being able to do that, it might be alright.

I'd only do that in a role madness game where lots of crazy poo poo was happening though.

Ernie.
Aug 31, 2012



Pinterest Mom posted:

That was Secret Invasion! Scum got to flip a townie instead of the nk every other night. It kinda made the game unwinnable for town.

Ernie was a public daycop who had outed a scum, so he was very strongly confirmed as town, and him getting flipped to scum was really unfair. He became an insane public daycop when flipped.

Kumbamontu posted:

I think a single person being able to change their alignment is fine as long as they're made aware of the possibility in advance, but in general I think alignment changes en masse are not likely to be a good idea due to reasons already stated

An example role of one person changing alignments was the Chameleon role I used in Lizards Mafia, wherein Ernie would, upon being targeted by any role, PGO-kill the person who targeted him and steal their role and alignment

I think it worked out pretty well but it's a role that adds quite a bit of swing to a setup for sure

Every time I have switched alignments I have won the game. It's just crazy overpowered because I usually have a somewhat strong town game and end up doing "impossible for scum" moves. Therefore, alignment switches should not be kept secret from town. The op should state 'a theoretical max of 1 alignment switch will happen in this game' that way the town can wifom their way into correct lunches.

kumba
Nov 8, 2003


enjoy the ride


Lipstick Apathy

Ernie. posted:

Every time I have switched alignments I have won the game. It's just crazy overpowered because I usually have a somewhat strong town game and end up doing "impossible for scum" moves. Therefore, alignment switches should not be kept secret from town. The op should state 'a theoretical max of 1 alignment switch will happen in this game' that way the town can wifom their way into correct lunches.

Come to think of it, the only time I've seen alignment changing in a game I was in I was scum with the ability to recruit and we won that game when I converted the town doctor as I died so yeah. I wonder what the win% is for scum/cult out of the subset of games that contain alignment changing mechanics

I'd be willing to bet it's really high

Diqnol
May 9, 2010

Look, I eat them all the time, just trust me.


Ramrod XTreme

I think it's a good rule of thumb to just not put alignment changes in the game. It's nice enough as a novelty but it subverts the game significantly and is pretty much inherently unfair and unfun. There are so many ways to spice up a game that it's totally unnecessary to cross that bridge so why even do it? If you are going to do it, though, make it the centerpiece of the game.

Lumpen
Apr 2, 2004

There is no truth beyond magic.

A winning strategy in a game with a cult is just post as little as possible and hope to get recruited. Until you get recruited post as little as possible, then after you get recruited continue posting as little as possible. Maybe you'll win, maybe not. If you win, great, that was easy. If not, at least you didn't waste a lot of time or effort.

Fun game?

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Lumpen
Apr 2, 2004

There is no truth beyond magic.

If it is a known possibility to win with the Cult, don't bother lynching anyone. Just be passive and let the cult recruit until you get into the cult and win with the cult. Do nothing and hope that you get recruited in the process of the cult winning by recruiting because that's what they do. Fun game?

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