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Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound
Welcome earthlings to the Awful Book of the Month!
In this thread, we choose one work of literature absolute crap and read/discuss it over a month. If you have any suggestions of books, choose something that will be appreciated by many people, and has many avenues of discussion. We'd also appreciate if it were a work of literature complete drivel that is easily located from a local library or book shop, as opposed to ordering something second hand off the internet and missing out on a week's worth of reading. Better yet, books available on e-readers.

Resources:

Project Gutenberg - http://www.gutenberg.org

- A database of over 17000 books available online. If you can suggest books from here, that'd be the best.

SparkNotes - http://www.sparknotes.com/

- A very helpful Cliffnotes-esque site, but much better, in my opinion. If you happen to come in late and need to catch-up, you can get great character/chapter/plot summaries here.

:siren: For recommendations on future material, suggestions on how to improve the club, or just a general rant, feel free to PM me. :siren:

Past Books of the Month
2011:
January: John Keats, Endymion
Febuary/March: Miguel Cervantes, Don Quixote
April: Laurell K. Hamilton, Obsidian Butterfly
May: Richard A. Knaak - Diablo #1: Legacy of Blood
June: Pamela Britton - On The Move
July: Raymond Chandler - The Big Sleep
August: Louis L'Amour - Bendigo Shafter
September: Ian Fleming - Moonraker
October: Ray Bradbury - Something Wicked This Way Comes
November: John Ringo - Ghost
December: James Branch Cabell - Jurgen


2012:
January: G.K. Chesterton - The Man Who Was Thursday
Febuary: M. Somerset Maugham - Of Human Bondage
March: Joseph Heller - Catch-22
April: Zack Parsons - Liminal States
May: Haruki Murakami - Norwegian Wood
June: James Joyce - Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man
July: William S. Burroughs - Naked Lunch
August: William Faulkner - The Sound & The Fury
September/October: Leo Tolstoy - War & Peace
November: David Mitchell - Cloud Atlas
December: Kurt Vonnegut - Mother Night

2013
January: Walter M. Miller - A Canticle for Liebowitz
Febuary: Alfred Bester - The Stars My Destination
March: Kazuo Ishiguro - Remains Of The Day
April: Don Delillo - White Noise
May: Anton LeVey - The Satanic Bible
June/July: Susanna Clarke - Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell
August: Michael Swanwick - Stations of the Tide
September: John Wyndham - Day of the Triffids
October: Shirley Jackson - The Haunting of Hill House
November: Iain Banks - The Wasp Factory
December: Roderick Thorp - Nothing Lasts Forever

2014:
January: Ursula K. LeGuin - The Left Hand of Darkness
February: Mikhail Bulgalov - Master & Margarita
March: Richard P. Feynman -- Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!
April: James Joyce -- Dubliners
May: Gabriel Garcia Marquez -- 100 Years of Solitude
June: Howard Zinn -- A People's History of the United States
July: Mary Renault -- The Last of the Wine
August: Barbara Tuchtman -- The Guns of August
September: Jane Austen -- Pride and Prejudice
October: Roger Zelazny -- A Night in the Lonesome October
November: John Gardner -- Grendel
December: Christopher Moore -- The Stupidest Angel

2015:
January: Italo Calvino -- Invisible Cities
February: Karl Ove Knausgaard -- My Struggle: Book 1.
March: Knut Hamsun -- Hunger
April: Liu Cixin -- 三体 ( The Three-Body Problem)
May: John Steinbeck -- Cannery Row
June: Truman Capote -- In Cold Blood
(Hiatus)
August: Ta-Nehisi Coates -- Between the World and Me
September: Wilkie Collins -- The Moonstone

Current:

Book Barn's General Battuta -- The Traitor Baru Cormorant

http://www.amazon.com/Traitor-Baru-Cormorant-Seth-Dickinson/dp/0765380722

quote:

Case in point: Max Gladstone was the first author with whom I shared Seth Dickinson’s debut novel, The Traitor Baru Cormorant. Not because I’m Max’s editor and he’s a cool guy and we’ve become good friends—all of that is true, but I don’t ask every author I work with to send me a quote for every book I edit. Like I said, when it comes to obtaining blurbs, I try to match the writer to the book. In this instance, knowing Max the way I do, I had a strong hunch he’d be as enthusiastic for Seth’s novel as I was.

Seldom have I underestimated anyone so spectacularly.

This is the blurb Max wrote that appears on the back cover of The Traitor Baru Cormorant:

quote:

“Dickinson has written a poet’s Dune, a brutal tale of empire, rebellion, fealty, and high finance that moves like a rocket and burns twice as hot. The Traitor Baru Cormorant is a mic drop for epic fantasy.”

—Max Gladstone, author of the Craft Sequence

Pretty awesome, right? Any SF/F novelist will tell you they’d give a kidney for an endorsement like that. A poet’s Dune? Moves like a rocket and burns twice as hot? A mic drop for epic fantasy? Heck, most debut novelists would cut out the kidney themselves to have any one of those descriptions on their book jacket. But all three in the same blurb? That’s gold.

Here’s the thing, though. That was the Gladstone blurb I chose for Seth’s jacket. Max gave me others, and each one was more insane than the last.

quote:

“In the first chapter of this book, Seth Dickinson turns a colonial analogue of the revolutionary fascists from V for Vendetta loose on LeGuin’s Earthsea. You want to see what he does next.”

Okay, that one’s pretty cool too. Great comparisons, awesome juxtaposition, and a promise that these merely scratch the surface of the novel. But then Max wrote this:

quote:

“This is the part where you tell me you don’t want to read a fantasy novel about an accountant, of all things, who doesn’t even do any swordfighting, and I’ll break your nose with this book, strap you into that creepy forced-viewing chair from A Clockwork Orange, and save you from a horrible mistake. You might as well spare yourself the trouble. I’m no good at setting noses.”

Now I’m wondering, what’s going on here? From the threat of violence and the reprogramming imagery, I can only assume Max has taken the Incrastic philosophy described in Seth’s novel to heart, and he will use these same methods when negotiating his next book contract. But I digress. Let’s continue:

quote:

“The Traitor Baru Cormorant breaks fantasy open: a brilliantly written gauntlet thrown to ossified visions of the genre’s possibilities. If face-huggers infected George R. R. Martin, Howard Zinn, and James C. Scott, producing glistening murderous offspring which then mated somehow…this is the book the single surviving spawn of that horrid union’s brood clutch would write. Read it.”

At this point, I’m terrified. But I’m also perversely intrigued. If I hadn’t already read The Traitor Baru Cormorant, this might well make me pick it up. And that’s what a blurb is supposed to do, after all. But my slightly depraved sensibilities aren’t the issue. As the editor, I have to think outside myself, imagine what will work best across the largest number of people.

But then there’s my personal favorite, which appeared simply as the subject of the email Max sent me containing all those other quotes:

quote:

“Can my blurb just be, ‘Jesus loving Christ, Marco, where did you find this guy?’”

Ah, to live in a world where that could be a cover quote!

http://www.tor.com/2015/09/15/the-art-of-the-blurb-or-step-away-from-the-traitor-baru-cormorant-max-gladstone/


About the Author

General Battuta posted:

No, in my opinion. I think Ark is a lot better than Gap.

I really like the spaceship chase in Redemption Ark, it's neat.

General Battuta posted:

Aaaa I LOVED that game. I must've been eight or ten when we played it, so my brother and I would just stare over my dad's shoulders and tell him what to do.

I don't know if it was legitimately hard as hell, or just hard because we were tiny children, but we were stuck in the avian lair with the :catdrugs: watermelons for months. And then the game put you on a timer and rushed you through the awesome octospider lair :(

General Battuta posted:

I really want to make the corvette swarm happen, but I am so, so bad at flying Rebel ships.

General Battuta posted:

What is best in life? To swarm your enemies, see them ruptured in vacuum, and order the devastation of their worlds.

General Battuta posted:


I was worried about the stray cats I always hear whining and mewing outside, because of all the cold and snow, but yesterday I saw the mournful creatures parading down the alley and they're all fat and sleek and just like to complain :3:

General Battuta posted:

You don't have to use Tinder, you can just talk to people you meet in the course of your day to day life and social occasions, accepting that all human relationships are on some level a product of coincidence and that it's more important to build friendships out of what's there than to seek out some illusionary, instantaneous spark of connection :shobon:

General Battuta posted:

Me too! I want to be a boat.





Discussion, Questions & Themes:


Pacing

Discussion is fine, but please use spoiler tags.

References and Further Reading



Final Note:

If you have any suggestions to change, improve or assess the book club generally, please PM or email me -- i.e., keep it out of this thread -- at least until into the last five days of the month, just so we don't derail discussion of the current book with meta-discussion. I do want to hear new ideas though, seriously, so please do actually PM or email me or whatever, or if you can't do either of those things, just hold that thought till the last five days of the month before posting it in this thread. Thanks, and I hope everyone enjoys the book!

Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Oct 12, 2015

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Decius
Oct 14, 2005

Ramrod XTreme
Between this and City of Stairs* it was a good year for Goon written Fantasy with bureaucratic female protagonists. Such a good book. I assume we hold back on spoilers until mid-month?




*ok, published 2014. I just read it his year.

Burning Rain
Jul 17, 2006

What's happening?!?!
Is Robert Jackson Bennett on the forums, too? I'm about to begin translating 'City of Stairs', so I guess the end product will be as much of a horrible disaster as all goon projects. Or maybe the publishers will outweigh the bad influence... unless they're goons, too, in which case, sorry, I'm already getting back to work!

And this might be the Book Barn that I actually participate in, although I'm easily distracted with all the other things I want to read

Decius
Oct 14, 2005

Ramrod XTreme

Burning Rain posted:

Is Robert Jackson Bennett on the forums, too?

Spiny Norman, but he hasn't posted in a long time.

Xotl
May 28, 2001

Be seeing you.
Yeah, he was run off by FYAD after the release of Mr. Shivers, as they mocked that book mercilessly. He's obviously grown as an author, but it's hard to blame him for not wanting to stick around and be a punching bag.

Fried Chicken
Jan 9, 2011

Don't fry me, I'm no chicken!
I have to side with other reviews I've seen. This is probably the most depressing and nihilistic work of genre fiction I've read since Blindsight. Take Guns, Germs and Steel, and then add in the feeling of any hope or plan being crushed by the implacable gears of a great machine, where the only way to survive is to trample the weak and hurdle the dead as you are beaten into becoming what you are trying to overthrow.

This is Traitor Baru Cormorant

Enjoy

taser rates
Mar 30, 2010
It definitely gives KJ Parker a run for his money, and I mean that in the best way.

ulmont
Sep 15, 2010

IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

taser rates posted:

It definitely gives KJ Parker a run for his money, and I mean that in the best way.

I thought the same thing. Similar feel to me, specifically to the Engineer trilogy.

General Battuta
Feb 7, 2011

This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.
I'm happy to answer questions and talk about poo poo, if that's not weird.

I've been doing an author's commentary that digs into some of the subtler stuff happening in the book. It's full of spoilers, so save it until you're done!

Quinton
Apr 25, 2004

General Battuta posted:

I've been doing an author's commentary that digs into some of the subtler stuff happening in the book. It's full of spoilers, so save it until you're done!

Neat. Will have to check that out afterwards.

I was in the process of picking something to read next when I saw this thread. TTBC was in the books to read pile and now the decision has been simplified. I loved City of Stairs (sounds like a vote for Goon Authors, I had no idea), and Max's Craft Sequence is far too much fun, so I'll take his enthusiasm as a good sign too. Ancillary Mercy ended pretty upbeat, so I'm ready for some dark and grim.

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

by vyelkin
I stayed up until 2am to finish this last night. Great book. Soul-crushing, but great.

Battuta, I have some questions! (We can use this thread like a bastardised AMA right?)

1) What's the deal with the Mother of Storms? (very minor spoilers about something that doesn't affect the plot at all)The few descriptions we get are tantalising, and I need to know what that expedition (mentioned in the letter at the end) found. I'm not sure if it's supposed to be an overtly fantasy element in a book which otherwise has no such elements, but I seriously got some Cacotopic Stain vibes from it. Is it going to be prominent in the sequel?

2) Also, what exactly are the Stakhi mansions? I think at one point it's mentioned that they're underneath the mountains in the north, so now I'm picturing huge Moria-like underground kingdoms.

3) Have you made any map, even a sketch on a napkin, of the wider world beyond Aurdwynn? I'd love to see what the shape of the land looks like.

4) Could you tell us more about your other projects that you mentioned in the Clarkesworld interview*? Both Exordia and Durandal sound really cool, I need them now. I'm hoping for cool alien races in both.

5) Tangential question, what are your favourite alien races in SF, and your favourite fantasy races in fantasy? Doesn't have to be limited to just books.

* Important note: that interview also has some plot information about the sequel to The Traitor Baru, which will spoil the outcome of the first book, so be careful if you haven't finished the book yet.

Hedrigall fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Oct 12, 2015

Quinton
Apr 25, 2004

I really enjoyed this and look forward to further books in this world. Even though it was, indeed, quite dark.

The author's commentary blog post series is a fun read (but definitely spoiler-tastic and should be left until after reading the book). It's rare (in my experience) to see an author pick through their own work like this and talk about some of the design and intent behind it.

I found this review/response (warning: full book spoilers) to raise a number of interesting points:
https://arkadymartine.wordpress.com/2015/09/27/the-traitor-baru-cormorant-a-reviewresponse/

I don't entirely agree with the reviewer's complaint that the Masquerade is "too evil"...

quote:

It commits every atrocity that a modern Western reader recognizes as abhorrent. This is a problem. It is a problem because we are asked, as readers, to believe that there are reasons besides blackmail that a person would willingly become an agent of the Masquerade. We are asked to imagine that the Masquerade is a beautiful machine.
Maybe I just have a more cynical outlook, but I don't find that too hard to imagine. Some of it is based on my assumption that Falcrest, which we have not yet seen by the end of the book, is a much better place to live than a recently-subjugated addition to the empire and some of it is based on the observation that people can overlook an awful lot of bad, if it does not directly harm them and theirs, and convince themselves that it is justified for perceived benefits to "society", "the world", etc.

Khizan
Jul 30, 2013


Quinton posted:

I don't entirely agree with the reviewer's complaint that the Masquerade is "too evil"...

This was my single biggest problem with the book. Since I knew the author was a goon and I might get to post at him about the book, I jotted down notes as I read the book so that I'd remember certain things. I've got 4 pages of handwritten thoughts and impressions of the book and probably 3 pages worth of them are a variation of "The Masquerade is a gigantic sack of used assholes and I have no idea why people put up with them".

The Masquerade punch every 'evil' button on the Modern Western Society panel. Imperialist homophobic eugenicsts. Concepts like "reperatory childbirth" where they breed women like livestock as a punishment. Neighbors informing on each other's 'social sins'. They are so overtly mustache-twirling evil that I found it distracting, honestly. I kept getting kicked out of the story to ask myself 'Why do people put up with this poo poo?'

I'm gonna spoiler-tag it from here on out just in case.


I look at it this way. Your evil empire needs one of two things to stay in power, really. It either needs the kind of iron fist that lets it tell potential rebels to go gently caress themselves, or it needs to provide enough benefit for people to tolerate it in spite of the fact that it's the evil empire. The Masquerade spent the first half of the book not showing either of those things. Dentists and doctors got mentioned a couple of times, but that was it as far as that went, and the Masquerade's iron fist didn't get any airtime until the Navy used their Greek fire to chase those first pirates away from the tax convoy.

I really think the book would have benefitted from showing me Falcrest or somewhere else where the Masquerade had a softer touch, something that gave me reason to think "Okay, this isn't that bad, I would take this over feudal warfare or road bandits or dying of cholera". Or I think it would have benefited from showing their iron fist earlier in the book, so that I could see how they managed to maintain an empire while being mustache-twirling evil. Either would have done a lot to help my immersion in the second quadrant of the book.

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

by vyelkin
Yeah, all of it is almost as unbelievable as what happened in our world history. In reality.

The Slithery D
Jul 19, 2012
It's truly amazing none of those peasants read what was happening on Facebook and organized a flash mob to protest the actions of this organized empire with superior technology. That could have shut this poo poo down cold.

The Slithery D fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Oct 12, 2015

uberkeyzer
Jul 10, 2006

u did it again

Hedrigall posted:

Yeah, all of it is almost as unbelievable as what happened in our world history. In reality.

I just finished the book last night so I'm still processing it (in general it was excellent). I find myself agreeing to a certain extent with that critique.

I do recognize that many of the tools of conquest used by the Masquerade are drawn from real life examples. However, the Masquerade is a composite of the evil features of many different empires -- it combines native schooling/talent skimming with eugenics with the purposeful use of disease as a tool of conquest with violent and repressive homophobia with a secret police with Clockwork Orange style brainwashing, etc etc. It's not so much that any one feature is realistic as it is the fact that they're all found present here, together, and that all of the Falcresti we meet appear to be gung ho for the Empire.

Certainly empires like the Spanish in North America were not free of dissent within or without -- a large reason the Spanish get such a bad rap today is a longstanding and extensive propaganda campaign in Northern Europe against the atrocities committed by Spain.

I would expect a world like this would have a very strong anti-Falcresti publicity campaign waged by rival empires. I'd also expect there to be a fairly significant current of resistance within Falcrest itself.

That said, a book with a tight focus like this one might not benefit from this kind of scope widening. I can believe that Baru would not be aware of elements within Falcrest. I thought the solo POV and focus on our main character was a refreshing change from the usual fantasy bloat and I hope any subsequent books in this series keep this focus. There's always short stories and follow up series to expand the world...

Edit: added spoiler tags just in case

uberkeyzer fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Oct 12, 2015

General Battuta
Feb 7, 2011

This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

Hedrigall posted:

I stayed up until 2am to finish this last night. Great book. Soul-crushing, but great.

Battuta, I have some questions! (We can use this thread like a bastardised AMA right?)

1) What's the deal with the Mother of Storms? (very minor spoilers about something that doesn't affect the plot at all)The few descriptions we get are tantalising, and I need to know what that expedition (mentioned in the letter at the end) found. I'm not sure if it's supposed to be an overtly fantasy element in a book which otherwise has no such elements, but I seriously got some Cacotopic Stain vibes from it. Is it going to be prominent in the sequel?

I can't tell you exactly, that'd ruin it! One of my goals with the book is to find stuff in real life that feels uncanny, impossible, and otherworldly — the eerie mundane. (This is why the southern Oriati territories have a bunch of natural fission reactors, ecosystems adapted to radioactive water, and a religion around cancer: it could happen, with a little geological and timescale jiggering, but it's not something that actually occurred very widely Earth.) But there may also be supernatural elements out there! Who can say?

quote:

2) Also, what exactly are the Stakhi mansions? I think at one point it's mentioned that they're underneath the mountains in the north, so now I'm picturing huge Moria-like underground kingdoms.

Imagine a low-budget Moria meets Andean terrace farms — I try not to do easy analogies for real-world civilizations, but it's a beautiful and harsh place with a lot of ingenuity on display, both above and below ground.

quote:

3) Have you made any map, even a sketch on a napkin, of the wider world beyond Aurdwynn? I'd love to see what the shape of the land looks like.

I have a general outline, but I haven't written it down. When I need art I turn to my partner, who's really good at this stuff. She did the map for this book!

quote:

4) Could you tell us more about your other projects that you mentioned in the Clarkesworld interview*? Both Exordia and Durandal sound really cool, I need them now. I'm hoping for cool alien races in both.

Exordia is a crazy space opera set in a universe that's just discovered a physical basis for morality, left over by whoever built the place (and apparently died in the process without quite wrapping up the loose ends). A race breaks out to get the keys to the system, so that the winner can define themselves as universally good. You can read a short story based on the opening [url=http://www.shimmerzine.com/anna-saves-them-all-by-seth-dickinson/]here.

The other one (which I'm calling Titanomach right now) is about a really depressed young Indian woman who manages to open a wormhole and jump through as a way to get out of her lovely life — but her half-sister follows her through. They end up on a huge starship trapped in orbit around an alien megaconstruct, and because the crew is infected with a mental virus and the ship's AI has gone megalomaniacally insane, they have to take command of the ship and try to get it home. Kinda Portal meets Marathon meets Narnia.

quote:

5) Tangential question, what are your favourite alien races in SF, and your favourite fantasy races in fantasy? Doesn't have to be limited to just books.

Oh man! I think the Scramblers from Blindsight have to be first, but I also had a weakness for the aliens of David Brin's Startide Rising growing up. Nancy Kress' Fallers were pretty terrifying, as were the MorningLightMountain guys in one of the Peter Hamilton novels. When it comes to alien machines, Reynolds is great at freaking me out. My interest in fictional aliens is mostly in the parallax they can provide on humanity — challenging our assumptions about whether our brains are really optimized, adaptive, or inevitable.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012
Only about halfway through the book, but I found it interesting that people said that the Masquerade was "too evil" when for the first few chapters its evilness struck me as restrained by fantasy standards i.e., it forcibly remakes other cultures instead of outright massacring or enslaving them. It later turns out that the long-term goal probably is enslaving everybody in the world, but that's not obvious to the average person in universe. The description of the Cold Cellars did seem a bit over the top, though; that kind of direct social control seems a bit out of place in a region where the Masquerade otherwise seemed to have left previous social systems in place.

Quinton
Apr 25, 2004

Silver2195 posted:

The description of the Cold Cellars did seem a bit over the top, though; that kind of direct social control seems a bit out of place in a region where the Masquerade otherwise seemed to have left previous social systems in place.

It seemed to me that in the wake of the Fools' Rebellion and ongoing unrest, things ended up being handled in a very unsubtle way. Not quite the model absorption into the empire, which presumably looks more like what happened in Taranoke.

Quinton fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Oct 13, 2015

Khizan
Jul 30, 2013


Silver2195 posted:

Only about halfway through the book, but I found it interesting that people said that the Masquerade was "too evil" when for the first few chapters its evilness struck me as restrained by fantasy standards i.e., it forcibly remakes other cultures instead of outright massacring or enslaving them. It later turns out that the long-term goal probably is enslaving everybody in the world, but that's not obvious to the average person in universe. The description of the Cold Cellars did seem a bit over the top, though; that kind of direct social control seems a bit out of place in a region where the Masquerade otherwise seemed to have left previous social systems in place.

It's more than the Masquerade seems to have a checklist of "Evil poo poo To Do" that it cribbed from modern western society and it's ripping right down the whole list. Eugenics, check. Homophobia? Check. Genital mutilation? Check. Big Brother-style spying and thoughtcrime type stuff? Check. Rigid gender roles? Check. Women are breeding livestock? Check. Diseases as weapons? Check. 'Reperatory Childbirth' as a punishment for infidelity? Got that too. No evil too petty, no deed too over the top. If you told me that they gave each schoolchild a puppy so that they could end each semester by strangling the puppies of the bottom 10%, I'd believe it.

I think the book would be stronger if the Masquerade was a bit less overt with the mustache twirling evil and a bit more overt with the benefits of its society. Medicine. Dentists. Sewage and Saniation. Trade routes. Piracy suppression. That kind of thing. Some kind of benefit that would make people more likely to bear their chains peacefully. As it is, that stuff gets like two lines of dialogue in amongst the "tribadism and the knife" talk.

Khizan fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Oct 13, 2015

Decius
Oct 14, 2005

Ramrod XTreme
Yeah, but don't forget who is the source of everything we hear about the Masquarade. Of course Baru paints it in the darkest colours, while also at the same time having swallowed a lot of their thinking wholesale or having to make a conscious effort to not fall too deep into the Masquarade thinking structures (which I found a really, really well done characterization).

And they do a lot of evil poo poo over the course of the book, but we've only seen a island right after "peaceful" conquest and one on the verge of rebellion. I'm sure in more settled provinces people live a nice life with a lot of upsides once they are used to the fascist ways. Probably something for book 2 that's set at least partly in Falcrest.

Also, even if there weren't any upsides to the rule of the Masquerade, it doesn't seem like people have really that much say or choice in it. We've just seen what happens to rebellion, and they control lives as thoroughly or more so as the SED did in Eastern Germany during their height. Either you go with the program or you disappear. We expect them to have enough positive sides to make up for all the poo poo, so people won't rebel - but in reality many, many empires were real shitholes for all but a privileged few. Why did people bear the chains of the USSR relatively peacefully? North Korea? Spain under Franco? The various Juntas in South America? People put up with a lot of poo poo in the name of stability.

Decius fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Oct 13, 2015

anilEhilated
Feb 17, 2014

But I say fuck the rain.

Grimey Drawer

Decius posted:

Why did people bear the chains of the USSR relatively peacefully?
Because the Soviets knew how to put down a rebellion in a way brutal enough to send the message, see: Hungary 1956.
Basically everyone was too afraid of Stalin, then after he died, revolutions in Poland and Hungary were crushed and for decades later, any regime that deviated too much from the communist guidelines found a bunch of Russian tanks knocking on its borders.

The anatomy of revolution is an interesting topic, but it's very hard to find literature that deals with it without being overtly politically biased, either with Glorious Ideals Of The Oppressed or Warmongering Discontented Peasants Threatening Our Way Of Life. Either way, it's a minority thing - most of the people just want to go on with their (already complicated enough) lives. The trick is to make sure they always have something to lose. Suppression and creating a negative image of the intellectuals to discourage questions, and so on. A lot of the seemingly mustache-twirling stuff are valid (and/or real) political tools.

anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Oct 13, 2015

Decius
Oct 14, 2005

Ramrod XTreme
Exactly my point. You have a few big examples to show how you deal with rebellion, be it the 17th of June (1953), 1956 or 1968 - or the Fool's rebellion and the new rebellion - and you get of decades of people ducking down their head and keeping quiet, even if life is comparably bad - and aside of not having any freedom and the creepy 1984-like Homo Sovieticus engineering, the live of most people in the Maquarade is probably quite good - enough food and work if you keep your citizen score high enough.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound
If North Korea is any example, life doesn't even have to be particularly good.

Revolutions almost never succeed without significant external support and military aid.

Olewithmilk
Jun 30, 2006

What?

Read this book without realising a goon wrote it. It's a great read and I'm glad I can tell the person who wrote it how much I enjoyed it in person (sort of). Thanks General Battuta! Can't wait for the next ones, hope it is selling well for you.

secular woods sex
Aug 1, 2000
I dispense wisdom by the gallon.
The Masquerade gives me some serious post-Revolutionary France deja vu for some reason.

gvibes
Jan 18, 2010

Leading us to the promised land (i.e., one tournament win in five years)
This was really freaking good. Nice work general buttbutter. Looking forward to seeing Baru "paint you across history in the color of their blood in the sequel. Very metal.

Chomposaur
Feb 28, 2010




Loved it. Sent Seth my first-ever embarrassing author fanmail before I read this and found out he is a goon. Awesome work!

SimonChris
Apr 24, 2008

The Baron's daughter is missing, and you are the man to find her. No problem. With your inexhaustible arsenal of hard-boiled similes, there is nothing you can't handle.
Grimey Drawer
Interesting trivia: The condition Baru suffers from in the final chapter appears to be based on a real case, described in the "Eyes Right!" chapter of Oliver Sack's classic book "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat". A woman suffered brain damage, which caused her to lose all understanding of the concept of "left". She would only eat what was on the right side of her plate, and didn't understand people when they told her that there was more food on the other side.

I just finished the book, and will probably have some more to say when I have had time to think about it.

SimonChris fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Oct 19, 2015

Notahippie
Feb 4, 2003

Kids, it's not cool to have Shane MacGowan teeth
Re: the Masquerade, I think we're not exposed quite so much to the evil of the feudal system it's competing with. There's plenty of evidence that the population of pre-Masquerade Aurdwynn is basically on the edge of starvation at all times, and there's a sharp noble/serf distinction. Imagine if you're a straight serf without much interest in the old religion in that context, and compare your life under the Masquerade to what the dukes offer. I think there's a pretty good argument to be made that for a lot of people life is better off under the rule of Falcrest. I actually didn't see them as too overtly evil - I thought they were a pretty good interpretation of what would happen if the Conquistadors had been run by people with a better understanding of social science than actually happened.

Crashbee
May 15, 2007

Stupid people are great at winning arguments, because they're too stupid to realize they've lost.
About two-thirds through and I'm not really following Baru's motivation. Why is she leading this rebellion again? I don't see how it helps liberate her homeland.

e: ...oh.

Crashbee fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Oct 23, 2015

Hedrigall
Mar 27, 2008

by vyelkin
it... helps

Groke
Jul 27, 2007
New Adventures In Mom Strength

SimonChris posted:

Interesting trivia: The condition Baru suffers from in the final chapter appears to be based on a real case, described in the "Eyes Right!" chapter of Oliver Sack's classic book "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat". A woman suffered brain damage, which caused her to lose all understanding of the concept of "left". She would only eat what was on the right side of her plate, and didn't understand people when they told her that there was more food on the other side.

Yes, I also picked up on that straight away, having recently read the Sacks book and thus having it fresh in my memory.

Good job, General Battuta, write more stuff and I will read it.

SimonChris
Apr 24, 2008

The Baron's daughter is missing, and you are the man to find her. No problem. With your inexhaustible arsenal of hard-boiled similes, there is nothing you can't handle.
Grimey Drawer
http://www.sethdickinson.com/2015/10/01/the-traitor-baru-cormorant-read-along-chapter-1/

I just checked out the author's web page, and he has started a commented read-along of the entire novel. Looks really interesting.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound
Need suggestions for next month.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Need suggestions for next month.

Its only available to order on Amazon but I think "Voices from Chernobyl" by Svetlana Alexievich would be good. It's interesting, relevant, short, and she did just win the Nobel Prize.

DannyTanner
Jan 9, 2010

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Its only available to order on Amazon but I think "Voices from Chernobyl" by Svetlana Alexievich would be good. It's interesting, relevant, short, and she did just win the Nobel Prize.

Agreed.

General Battuta
Feb 7, 2011

This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.
Ah, the month is almost over! I'll never be this famous again!

I think it's important to leave a wall between writer and reader so that the reader has room to interpret the text without the author drooling all over. But whatever gently caress that, I'll talk about some poo poo.

I'm curious how many people picked up on/cared at all about the more subtle threads in the book. I tried to bury the plots of other novels in the story, then make Baru resolutely ignore them (because she's so focused on her goal). Part of the idea was to reward rereads, part of the idea was to seed future stories that would be interesting, but mostly I wanted the novel to illustrate that the world was bigger than Baru.

Just off the top of my head:

Heingyl Ri's plan to take over Aurdwynn.

The true identity of the actress in the bar (this one's super easy).

Exactly which vengeance-crazed individual killed Duke Sahaule, and why Baru presumes it was done!

Xate Yawa's motives throughout the novel (pretty explicitly revealed), and the identity of her backer.

The fate of Xate Olake's daughter with Tain Ko.

The identity of the man with the iron circle that Tain Hu mentions, although it'd be a mad stretch to guess this one just from the textual evidence.

Exactly what brought down the Tu Maia heartland.

The scientific error that drives Masquerade eugenics.


I'll try to remember if I dropped any other threads!

Popular Human
Jul 17, 2005

and if it's a lie, terrorists made me say it

General Battuta posted:



The identity of the man with the iron circle that Tain Hu mentions, although it'd be a mad stretch to guess this one just from the textual evidence.



I have no idea, but I really liked that part just the way it is; as a mystery. It felt very Malazan: you could tell there was probably a book's worth of story behind whatever happened to that guy, and we're going to briefly hint at it for a paragraph before going right back into the main story.

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Xotl
May 28, 2001

Be seeing you.
I regret that I'm getting this one too late to participate, but I did order it just because of the good word I've seen here. Best of luck on your career, Seth.

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