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I wonder if it is "normal" for Zoss to be beheaded by 6Juggs or is this was also a divergence from the previous events. Because I would assume that most of these cycles don't wind up with the demiurges starting to break out of their self build cages and Jagganoth deciding to invade now because by his own estimation he shows up after.
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Apr 17, 2021 01:17
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YaketySass posted:Wait, Jagganoth's saying that the cycle ends with the Heir victorious against the "corrupt lords of the world", then Jagganoth drops by and kicks his rear end. But isn't Jagganoth himself one of these lords? Jagganoth has always been a separate, greater being than the other demiurges - remember that they mainly exist as a loose alliance to keep him in check. What we're beginning to see here is that it may be inaccurate to think of him as a demiurge in the first place - that, or he is the one true demiurge, the divinely-appointed manager of creation, and they are simply an ever-changing roster of powerful warlords without any cosmological significance beyond that.
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Apr 17, 2021 01:24
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Most of the others settled for building and playing in their personal playpens, Jadis just kind of waited around a lot, Jagganoth and Incubus prepared for a fight. Jagganoth worked on himself, Incubus worked on a furious idiot with a gem in her head - definitely not for anywhere near as long and definitely, definitely not for anywhere near as many of those lengths.
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Apr 17, 2021 01:35
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Well, I eat my words arguing against the idea of a time loop. At least it's more of a "time is reset" thing and it does fit into the talk about cycles and circles in the errata. This feels so weird for it to be the last book is the thing we're going to hate Jaggs being right, killing everyone, and Zoss turning the wheel back again
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Apr 17, 2021 01:43
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Regalingualius posted:He’d probably find it hilarious if he wound up picking the heir that finally breaks the cycle completely by accident. It would be extremely on brand. Zoss has, contra all of the other superpowers (the Demiurges and Juggernaut in particular), emphasized trusting others over imposing your own singular vision on the world. Kind of the whole point of that is that you end up surprised by what people do when you let them. Farg posted:so jagg is basically sans Yeah.
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Apr 17, 2021 02:02
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Here comes the Mighty Max ending https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrR4G4UJ9TQ&t=2222s
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Apr 17, 2021 02:10
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Farg posted:so jagg is basically sans How could you say something so cursed
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Apr 17, 2021 02:11
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Farg posted:so jagg is basically sans you just had to go and post this
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Apr 17, 2021 02:32
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Jagganoth has never had the main Key, or at least never built up enough memories to understand why he wants it Or, maybe he always gets the Key and he always makes this speech
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Apr 17, 2021 02:40
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Farg posted:so jagg is basically sans new thread title
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Apr 17, 2021 03:00
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The cycle hasn't been broken yet, but this time it's already different, already changing because Zoss didn't pick the successor everyone who knows they're in a loop would expect. I think Incubus figured that out but didn't quite know what to do with that knowledge except try to incite more chaos. I think Jagganoth hasn't gotten the memo yet, but he's pretty smart so he'll get it soon. Of course he already has his own plan to break things.
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Apr 17, 2021 03:10
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Brought To You By posted:I wonder if it is "normal" for Zoss to be beheaded by 6Juggs or is this was also a divergence from the previous events. Because I would assume that most of these cycles don't wind up with the demiurges starting to break out of their self build cages and Jagganoth deciding to invade now because by his own estimation he shows up after. "Over time, those bound to Metatron have become increasingly aware of the extent of our own imprisonment." Increasingly is a key word there. This may be the first cycle where 6 Juggernaut's understanding has advanced to the point that she knew when and where Zoss was going to pass on the key, and could come up with the idea to disrupt that moment.
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Apr 17, 2021 03:46
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I'm a bit confused, but how did the demiurges get Zaid to begin with when he was captured by the Thorn Knights, who do not work for any of the demiurges and are only sort-of-allies with jagganoth who also does not work with the other demiurgesOtherkinsey Scale posted:This may be the first cycle where 6 Juggernaut's understanding has advanced to the point that she knew when and where Zoss was going to pass on the key, and could come up with the idea to disrupt that moment. Except that Zoss very clearly passes on the key to someone different each time. And if Metatron set this situation up, why on earth is he having the thorn knights chop the dudes head off and prevent him from picking an heir this time? Or is the assumption that the thorn knights have secretly gone rogue along with Jag here and metatron doesn't know.
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Apr 17, 2021 03:54
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I think we're at what's supposed to be the final showdown. The difference being that the other Demiurges aren't slain boss fights, and the Heir isn't Zaid. Jagganoth remembers the battles, but not the context, so he's just as blind and bound.
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Apr 17, 2021 03:55
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GlyphGryph posted:Or is the assumption that the thorn knights have secretly gone rogue along with Jag here and metatron doesn't know. This is literally what happened, except Metatron does know. 
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Apr 17, 2021 04:08
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GlyphGryph posted:I'm a bit confused, but how did the demiurges get Zaid to begin with when he was captured by the Thorn Knights, who do not work for any of the demiurges and are only sort-of-allies with jagganoth who also does not work with the other demiurges https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/ksbd-4-75/ The Thorn Knights that grabbed Zaid were moving through Jagganoth’s part the universe with Zaid and he killed them all and brought Zaid to the council.
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Apr 17, 2021 04:11
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Otherkinsey Scale posted:"Over time, those bound to Metatron have become increasingly aware of the extent of our own imprisonment." Increasingly is a key word there.  Right I'd forgotten that 6 Juggs is aware of the time loops based not just on her conversation with white chain in the arena, but also in the void. And if we overlap her testimony with Jagganoth's the cycles might usually go with Zoss picking a successor, that one gets trained and takes out the demiurges, and then Juggernaut kills Zoss while Jagganoth defeats the successor to bring them before Metatron. But that's still keeping in mind that no single narrator is 100% accurate as to what is going on with these cycles.
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Apr 17, 2021 04:17
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GreyjoyBastard posted:new thread title regrettably i have to second this. it brings me no joy, however
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Apr 17, 2021 06:11
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Welp, that explains somethings about Jaggs' (and Juggs) motivation. If he is stuck in a loop and knows it that must be hell. To be one of the most powerful beings in Throne and still be helpless against the machinations of Royalty is one hell of a motive for omnicide. Just cut of the cycle a bit earlier each time to try and break things beyond repair. With the links people in this thread made i think we can assume that maybe this loop is different. It seems that instead of purging the corrupting lords, Alisson is changing things up. I don't see a different heir linking up with the cold and hot flame, refusing power at every turn and refuting their destiny. Letting White Chain fight her own fight is something a 'true' heir may not have done, and it may be significant. So maybe this cycle will be different. Maybe Jaggs can finally die knowing that there was another way. One more thing, if Juggs and Jaggs both are increasingly aware of every reset because of their allegiance with Metatron then it follows that 2Michael is also increasingly aware of every cycle. Every major villain is aware of the hell in which they are helpless players. Zoss truly is the enemy. This comic fucks.
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Apr 17, 2021 13:10
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The Heir kills the old lords, Allison just happened to make friend with them this time. It might be easier for a loop restart for Metatron to kill one champions instead of 7.
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Apr 17, 2021 15:15
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Has Zoss tried blowing on the cartridge before resetting?
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Apr 17, 2021 15:16
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FuturePastNow posted:I think Incubus figured that out but didn't quite know what to do with that knowledge except try to incite more chaos. I don't believe any of the demiurges besides Jagganoth and possibly Jadis know there's a cycle going on. Incubus doing weird schemes is just a thing he does, and he'd probably be less surprised by Jagganoth going off-script from their plan if he was aware Jagganoth has unlimited tries to shake things up.
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Apr 17, 2021 15:39
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Count Uvula posted:I don't believe any of the demiurges besides Jagganoth and possibly Jadis know there's a cycle going on. Incubus doing weird schemes is just a thing he does, and he'd probably be less surprised by Jagganoth going off-script from their plan if he was aware Jagganoth has unlimited tries to shake things up. Jadis saw the wheel and realized that nothing she's ever done or will do matters, so gently caress it time to be in a cube and wait for death.
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Apr 17, 2021 15:43
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Jadis looked at the wheel and all she saw was Zoss' enormous balls while he was straddling the wheel. She just stuck herself in a cold shower forever as one does.
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Apr 17, 2021 15:48
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Draadnagel posted:Jadis looked at the wheel and all she saw was Zoss' enormous balls while he was straddling the wheel. She just stuck herself in a cold shower forever as one does. unleash the zossauge.
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Apr 17, 2021 16:09
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The most important difference this time around is never before has the Heir been sleeping with the black flame, obviously.
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Apr 17, 2021 16:48
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Darth Walrus posted:Jagganoth has always been a separate, greater being than the other demiurges - remember that they mainly exist as a loose alliance to keep him in check. What we're beginning to see here is that it may be inaccurate to think of him as a demiurge in the first place - that, or he is the one true demiurge, the divinely-appointed manager of creation, and they are simply an ever-changing roster of powerful warlords without any cosmological significance beyond that. No, he's a demiurge like them. He's just been getting stronger and stronger while they've mostly stagnated, and then he received nails from Metatron (probably made from Juggernaut Star's wings?) and a holy mission of omnicide, which he has since abandoned presumably due to deciding the cycle is Metatron's fault. All of them had been the Seven New Gods for millennia before Jagganoth received the iron nails from Metatron, which is before the start of the cycle, because he only remembers due to being tied to Metatron. Since he is a constant, that means the cycle occurs after he receives the nails - and moreover, I'd bet on the cycle starting with the Heir every time. So Jagganoth and the others have been the New Gods for much, much longer than the length of the cycle, but Jagganoth has bleed-through memories of an incredible number of cycles.
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Apr 17, 2021 16:53
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GlyphGryph posted:The most important difference this time around is never before has the Heir been sleeping with the black flame, obviously. The idea that no man thought to gently caress a devil is by far the most unbelievable theory I've heard in this thread. e: too long for a thread title you think?
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Apr 17, 2021 16:57
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MikeJF posted:Alternative idea: we know angels crack if they lie, and Metatron told some whoppers. On reflection, if Metatron is supposed to be the voice of God, God in K6BD prides themselves on being an exceptional liar so really a good voice would be practically shattered by now. Though maybe that’s the real way forward thematically. If it’s true violence is inescapable, and the cycle will always repeat, then maybe the trick is to lie well enough about those truths that the lie overrides them. Joe Slowboat posted:All of them had been the Seven New Gods for millennia before Jagganoth received the iron nails from Metatron, which is before the start of the cycle, because he only remembers due to being tied to Metatron. Since he is a constant, that means the cycle occurs after he receives the nails - and moreover, I'd bet on the cycle starting with the Heir every time. One interesting thought; if the cycle always starts with the seeking of the heir, Zoss got the names of God (and Jagg probably got the feathers) long before it started. Metatron would have been planning this for a very long time. Which begs the question, why does Metatron want the cycle? Some way of forever maintaining control over the universe? Just a sick way to torture all of it so everyone hurts like they do?
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Apr 17, 2021 17:36
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I don't think Metatron is really in control! MadDogMike posted:One interesting thought; if the cycle always starts with the seeking of the heir, Zoss got the names of God (and Jagg probably got the feathers) long before it started. Metatron would have been planning this for a very long time. Which begs the question, why does Metatron want the cycle? Some way of forever maintaining control over the universe? Just a sick way to torture all of it so everyone hurts like they do? Jagganoth is clearly not entirely informed, because how he describes Zoss doesn't line up with Zoss at all, and Juggernaut Star (Metatron's most devoted servant) hates Zoss with an absolute passion. Metatron may want a specific outcome from the cycle, or if we take 2 Michael seriously, was (before the events of the Heir) talked down from omnicide to installing a new Universal King. So he may actually be in direct opposition to Jagganoth at this time, and Jagganoth definitely talks about Metatron as his enemy. Jagganoth seems to have been 'employed' with the iron nails to kill the entire cosmos, presumably because Metatron doesn't like how things ended up. So maybe it turns out Zoss and Jagganoth both have the same enemy, I think - Metatron. Metatron, who seems to represent 'a better world isn't possible.'
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Apr 17, 2021 17:49
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Jag said the heirs have an excess of courage but both zaid and Allison don't fit the bill.
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Apr 17, 2021 17:58
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Polgas posted:Jag said the heirs have an excess of courage but both zaid and Allison don't fit the bill. It's possible Zaid would be a overbrave blowhard if he got the power at the start instead of Allison. He probably wouldn't as he is now, but spending the comic under Solomon's thumb seems to have been good for him.
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Apr 17, 2021 18:14
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Allison does stupid and dangerous poo poo all the time because its seems right to her, whether she believes she can succeed or not. She's courageous, wtf
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Apr 17, 2021 18:54
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World Famous W posted:Allison does stupid and dangerous poo poo all the time because its seems right to her, whether she believes she can succeed or not. She's courageous, wtf Yeah Allison is ridiculously brave, she just gets there via a certain degree of existential surrender to mortality. Which is pretty great.
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Apr 17, 2021 18:59
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Maybe the difference this time isn't that Zoss chose a different Heir, it's that he used a pair of Heirs to motivate the real one to focus on rescuing the fake one instead of getting ideas like "imma conquer Throne".
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Apr 17, 2021 19:13
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YaketySass posted:Maybe the difference this time isn't that Zoss chose a different Heir, it's that he used a pair of Heirs to motivate the real one to focus on rescuing the fake one instead of getting ideas like "imma conquer Throne". Maybe that’s what the big difference is supposed to be with this cycle: instead of concentrating the power of the Heir into one all-powerful hero, Zoss deliberately chose to split it up among several people who would be individually weaker, but more capable of finally being able to stop it when they combined together. And then there’s the twist that Juggs went and hosed that all up midway through, so only Allison got the power of the heir.
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Apr 17, 2021 20:12
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YaketySass posted:Maybe the difference this time isn't that Zoss chose a different Heir, it's that he used a pair of Heirs to motivate the real one to focus on rescuing the fake one instead of getting ideas like "imma conquer Throne". After choosing the strongest person he could find for countless cycles, and that failing to work out, Zoss decided instead to give power to the weakest person he could find- a woman about to be raped- to see what would happen. I can't help but think there's some deliberate symbology there. Maybe Zaid is important, too, but I think the only function he served as for Zoss was misdirection. He looks like the previous heirs so Juggernaut Star would go after him and everyone would think Zoss had made a mistake.
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Apr 17, 2021 20:58
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tell me if i'm wrong but i'm fairly sure abbadon's said that the opening pages aren't supposed to be 'allison's getting raped'
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Apr 17, 2021 21:12
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Yeah, she was just trying to get laid because she figured that was what was expected of her by the world, and Zaid was just the first person she got to second base with.
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Apr 17, 2021 21:27
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flatluigi posted:tell me if i'm wrong but i'm fairly sure abbadon's said that the opening pages aren't supposed to be 'allison's getting raped' I think somewhere I read that it was meant to come off as awkwardly uncomfortable but consensual.
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Apr 17, 2021 21:27
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