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The whole open secret about Nen is still justified within the context of the setting. It firstly takes way too long to learn nen on average, a year at a minimum is what we've been told and that can apply to just gaining the ability to see aura. You can shortcut this but it would require either specific abilities to awaken you peacefully or getting baptized and risking injury or even death. So even if people knew about it, it's rare that many would pursue learning it given the daily requirements to do so. Most nen abilities being invisible is also a major factor, you can't see the guy using nen conjured Gorillas to pick up objects so you'd write him off as using some kind of trick or just having a weird ability. Regular superhumans aren't uncommon as it relates to physical feats and the presence of psychic powers is accepted on some level even by normal people. This is on top of the fact that magical shapeshifters and other bizarre animals are known organisms and the Dark Continent is also understood by the general public , the idea of what's "normal" is skewed. It's understandable that nen remains a secret when you can chalk up a bizarre death to a giant leech hiding in the hull rather than assuming that someone can magically summon snakes. I'd done a re-read of the series not too long ago and had forgotten that the auction catalog for the Southernbee auction (which is the legitimate one) also mentions that Ren is needed to access Greed Island, although the price to acquire the catalog is 12 million Jenny so not something you'd expect any normal person to be able to get just to find a single listing for a game that doesn't tell you what Ren is. The remaining information about how to even access something like Greed Island required a hunter's license since the regular internet gave no such info beyond the name of the manufacturer. It's reasonable to assume there wouldn't be much public information on the internet for similar reasons. Likewise, the arena only highlights nen fights on the same level where the price of admission can be assumed to be very high, on top of some matches being invitation only. The succession war and Kakin mafia have also made a whole point about how keeping people out of the know and keeping sources of power limited to the 'haves' is a tool for control. The same applies to groups like the hunter's association who don't advertise nen to people who acquire a license, but also don't make nen a requirement for people taking the exam to minimize the risk of abuse. CharlestheHammer posted:I don’t think the world building is bad it’s just not his priority. Which is only a problem if you want to set up another scenario within the same world. If you do that you are mostly making things up yourself which is I think the problem with that idea  . Phantom Rouge has a specialist with a neat ability as a plot device that is probably a good example of how to use the free-slot category wrong. It was probably done so the story could justify bringing back a bunch of dead characters. I haven't seen Last Mission but On just sounds like a terrible idea for a yin/yang dynamic with nen.
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May 28, 2020 19:21
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On is dumb and basically doesn't need to exist at all when Nen itself can already be empowered by negative emotions.
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May 28, 2020 19:23
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you can choose anything as secondary fuel for nen, because that forms a restriction. the more specific the item, the heavier the restriction and the more potent the results. emotions are fair game, same as anything else.
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May 28, 2020 20:02
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AlternateNu posted:JJBA gets a pass because stands are by definition undetectable by folks without stands, and there are far fewer of them in the setting than there are Nen users in HxH. Stands themselves are invisible, but most of them have very visible effects. Araki came up with the idea in the first place to have an interesting visual representation of powers like telekinesis, after all. You can say, "Well, how do you know for sure that there aren't people with telekinesis in the real world?," but, among other things, there's a bunch of organizations that offer prizes to anyone who can demonstrate psychic powers! You can rationalize that the "fighting spirit" necessary to awaken a Stand means that most Stand users are eccentrics who dislike the spotlight and/or violent people who have done some illegal things that they don't want coming to light, though. Kira and Diavolo are arguably just extreme manifestations of the typical Stand user mentality. Even Tonio Trussardi probably wants to be thought of as a great chef rather than as a psychic healer. And while Bohemian Rhapsody in Part 6 was a very obvious supernatural phenomenon happening in public, the universe got reset a few weeks later, so how the public reacted to it is a bit of a moot point. Brought To You By posted:Phantom Rouge has a specialist with a neat ability as a plot device that is probably a good example of how to use the free-slot category wrong. It was probably done so the story could justify bringing back a bunch of dead characters. I haven't seen Last Mission but On just sounds like a terrible idea for a yin/yang dynamic with nen. I always like to say that both HxH movies are secretly Bleach filler arcs. Phantom Rouge is one of the ones where they fight enemies like the Reigei or the sword spirits whose powers are copies of existing characters' powers. The Last Mission is one of the ones where they fight new characters with a new power system introduced out of nowhere who have a semi-justified grudge against Yamamoto, like Amagai or the Bount. Those sorts of plots are necessary for Bleach because Bleach has a weirdly constrained setting that makes it hard to organically introduce new groups of strong characters and locations. (This is a problem for Kubo as well as the filler writers; Vandenreich and Soul Society West Branch are similarly awkwardly shoehorned in.) But HxH's setting is open-ended enough that you don't have to resort to that kind of thing.
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May 28, 2020 20:09
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On was hilarious because it just shows the writers didn't look at the source material at all. Same as using Netero as a kind wise old man type.
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May 28, 2020 20:11
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Silver2195 posted:I always like to say that both HxH movies are secretly Bleach filler arcs. Phantom Rouge is one of the ones where they fight enemies like the Reigei or the sword spirits whose powers are copies of existing characters' powers. The Last Mission is one of the ones where they fight new characters with a new power system introduced out of nowhere who have a semi-justified grudge against Yamamoto, like Amagai or the Bount. I should add that the Bount arc actually does a better job than The Last Mission does of fitting the new power system into the setting, by making the Bounts protoypes of the Mod Souls, and by making their powers fit the same general spirit-companion/externalization-of-the-internal framework as Soul Reaper powers, Arrancar powers, Orihime's powers, etc.
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May 28, 2020 20:33
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the best part about the nen system is that the most hosed up eccentric characters come up with the most interesting abilities, and those are the sort of characters you want to see more of to begin with. with stands there's no deliberate creation, so some boring rear end characters have completely wild stands and vice versa. and now we have the princes, who have that random power element on top of some of them also being nen users. this fuckin' arc has the potential to be the best arc by far, and i really want to read the rest of it.
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May 28, 2020 20:41
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Jo Jo and HXH are like complete opposites. Hunter likes having rules that it plays by and Jo Jo revels in the fact it’s just nonsense
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May 28, 2020 20:45
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CharlestheHammer posted:Jo Jo and HXH are like complete opposites. Hunter likes having rules that it plays by and Jo Jo revels in the fact it’s just nonsense Does it, though? JoJo goes out of its way to establish a bunch of rules for Stands; it's just that they have a lot of (sometimes rather arbitrary) exceptions. Is that really all that different from Specialists vs. other Nen users in Hunter x Hunter? Also, JoJo establishes explicit ranges for individual Stands, as well as ratings for their strength and speed; it just doesn't always adhere to those stats consistently.
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May 28, 2020 20:55
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Yeah they may have rules but from what I’ve seen those rules are ignored when the author wants to do something cool. Which hey it works for him
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May 28, 2020 20:58
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CharlestheHammer posted:Yeah they may have rules but from what I’ve seen those rules are ignored when the author wants to do something cool. Which hey it works for him And that's something HxH does well by just adding in an extra category that accounts for that stuff. "Hang on this ability doesn't make any sense. It breaks like four rules all at once!" "Specialist."
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May 28, 2020 21:04
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CharlestheHammer posted:Jo Jo and HXH are like complete opposites. Hunter likes having rules that it plays by and Jo Jo revels in the fact it’s just nonsense Yeah I agree with this. Also Enhancers are the most boring nen users change my mind.
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May 28, 2020 21:06
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Silver2195 posted:I should add that the Bount arc actually does a better job than The Last Mission does of fitting the new power system into the setting, by making the Bounts protoypes of the Mod Souls, and by making their powers fit the same general spirit-companion/externalization-of-the-internal framework as Soul Reaper powers, Arrancar powers, Orihime's powers, etc. I liked Bounts as a concept more than I liked Fullbringers. That's when I started to realize Kubo was at his limits as a writer.
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May 28, 2020 21:07
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Silver2195 posted:Those sorts of plots are necessary for Bleach because Bleach has a weirdly constrained setting that makes it hard to organically introduce new groups of strong characters and locations. (This is a problem for Kubo as well as the filler writers; Vandenreich and Soul Society West Branch are similarly awkwardly shoehorned in.) But HxH's setting is open-ended enough that you don't have to resort to that kind of thing. The funny thing is that there were mentions of other factions really early on (like the 'magic hunters'), which then got totally dumped after kubo went all in on soul society being top dog main characters really he should have killed off half the captains in the first arc but they were too popular with fans
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May 28, 2020 21:12
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Jojo tends to state the rules on a stand by stand basis. I don't think there's any universal rule for what a stand can or can't do. Nen has pretty strict rules set up pretty early that it breaks with specialist or it uses the "restrictions" clause to justify anything.
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May 28, 2020 21:14
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Nen rules are more of guidelines than actual rules.
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May 28, 2020 21:26
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Silver2195 posted:Does it, though? Fate goes out of its way to establish a bunch of rules for Servants; it's just that they have a lot of (sometimes rather arbitrary) exceptions. Is that really all that different from Specialists vs. other Nen users in Hunter x Hunter? Also, Fate establishes explicit ranges for individual Servants, as well as ratings for their strength and speed; it just doesn't always adhere to those stats consistently.
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May 28, 2020 21:29
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Tunicate posted:The funny thing is that there were mentions of other factions really early on (like the 'magic hunters'), which then got totally dumped after kubo went all in on soul society being top dog main characters My Watsonian assumption is that the term "magic hunters" referred to people with minor spiritual abilities, like Don Kanonji, and the idea that the Quincies are an offshoot of the magic hunters was Soul Society propaganda to avoid acknowledging that Quincy powers ultimately derive from the Soul King. The actual reason is that Kubo forgot, though. I think most of the things don't quite fit in Bleach's setting are actually the result of Kubo forgetting about things rather than deliberately retconning in new elements. The existence of a Soul Society West Branch is hinted at early on when we see a "Soul Society East Branch" sign, but Kubo forgot about it and proceeded to write about the East Branch as though it was the only Soul Society, so when he remembered the idea and introduced the West Branch in Burn the Witch, it didn't really make sense. Edit: Or the infamous line, "Who said the Espada were numbered from 1 to 10, huh?!" To which the answer is Shawlong did, back when the Espada were literally first mentioned! I don't think Yammy being #0 was planned until mid-Hueco Mundo or so, but I don't think Kubo realized there was any previous dialogue conflicting with it; I think he honestly didn't remember who Shawlong was. Fairy Tail, in contrast, tended to have more of a "Yeah, I know this contradicts something previously established, but just roll with it" mentality. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 21:59 on May 28, 2020 |
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May 28, 2020 21:29
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stands that aren't controllable by the user generally don't have a HP link and have longer range
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May 28, 2020 21:32
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TriffTshngo posted:And that's something HxH does well by just adding in an extra category that accounts for that stuff. "Hang on this ability doesn't make any sense. It breaks like four rules all at once!" "Specialist." Specialists don’t break the rules they where introduced with the rules
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May 28, 2020 21:43
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dude, why the heck are you putting trivial bleach details in spoiler tags. bleach ended 4 years ago. no one gave a poo poo about yammy's reveal when it happened, much less now.
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May 28, 2020 21:44
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CharlestheHammer posted:Specialists don’t break the rules they where introduced with the rules Yeah though one of the rules being "Also, the rules don't matter" does kind of undermine the idea of rules.
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May 28, 2020 21:45
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Yeah though one of the rules being "Also, the rules don't matter" does kind of undermine the idea of rules. I don’t know if this is in reference to Specialists but that’s an exaggeration. Even the rules say you can learn other styles it’s just going to be harder. The fact certain people are born more skilled just seems more realistic. It’s not like there are a ton of specialists. Chrollo and that’s it I think
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May 28, 2020 21:51
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There are a ton of specialists, it's the category of exclusion. Kurapika is one when his eyes are active, Meruem, Neferpitou, the girl who could write prophecies etc.
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May 28, 2020 21:55
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CharlestheHammer posted:It’s not like there are a ton of specialists. Chrollo and that’s it I think Neon, Pakunoda, Tserriednich, Meruem, Pitou, and a couple other lower level ants are all specialists.
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May 28, 2020 21:55
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Yeah though one of the rules being "Also, the rules don't matter" does kind of undermine the idea of rules. Given how reigned in Specialists abilities are in the greater scope of the story, and how their abilities are heavily condition based. Not really. They still play by the rules of nen. The "rules don't matter" argument works for things like Omokage in Phantom Rouge, his ability is just too wide in what it lets him do with very little actual condition. He gets access to copies of people with all their memories, nen ability, and combat capability. But he can also steal the eyes from others and fuse with the dolls himself to get the abilities of the target. That's a far cry from regular ability thieves, or specialists like Meleron who just made their natural gift even better. Ironically, I think Togashi might have taken the ideas from the movies and reworked them to better fit his story. Gallery Fake + Order Stamp covers making clones but adds the nuance that controlling a copy of someone means grappling with the actual personality of the person. Which is why telling a clone to "break" someone was better than saying "kill them". Morena's ability to give abilities likewise reads like how On should have been written so that it's actually Nen and not some open power that just does what the plot asks for.
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May 28, 2020 21:57
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Tunicate posted:stands that aren't controllable by the user generally don't have a HP link and have longer range This is reasonably consistent, I suppose. Sheer Heart Attack is automatic but still linked to the user, but that's probably because it's just a component of Killer Queen, which isn't automatic. Star Platinum exceeded its normal range when it was first introduced, but Jotaro couldn't fully control it yet. A rule that gets stretched a lot "a Stand only has one power," but you can rationalize most seeming violations by distinguishing things that a Stand can do by virtue of its form (Star Platinum punching things and even stretching its fingers, Hermit Purple doing rope things), the one more magical effect that a particular Stand can just do (Star Platinum stopping time, Hermit Purple's divination, Gold Experience imbuing things with life), and side effects of the one magical effect due to the weird metaphysics of the JoJo universe that exist independently of Stands (Gold Experience's creations initially reflecting damage a consequence of their independence from Giorno somehow, Made in Heaven effectively resetting the universe because that's what would have happened anyway when the universe eventually ended, and people who were still alive when the previous universe ended retaining their memories because their souls transferred over). The problem is that the third type of Stand effect only makes sense if your intuitive assumptions about fate and souls and so forth are exactly the same as Araki's.
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May 28, 2020 21:58
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TriffTshngo posted:Neon, Pakunoda, Tserriednich, Meruem, Pitou, and a couple other lower level ants are all specialists. All things considered, that's still a fairly low % of characters that can use Nen, from what we have seen so far. There are several dozens nen users we know in HxH. Also, I was thinking, someone who hasn't entered in the forum in the last 3 days will have a heart attack when he sees suddenly 70 new posts in the thread. Poor soul will believe there manga is continuing... 
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May 28, 2020 21:59
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TriffTshngo posted:Neon, Pakunoda, Tserriednich, Meruem, Pitou, and a couple other lower level ants are all specialists. One thing I like about Specialists is that they actually seem to fit into a handful of distinct categories, for the most part. You could subdivide it into Divination (Neon, Pakunoda, Binolt), Theft (Chrollo, Leol, Kurapica's Steal Chain and perhaps Emperor Time in a sense, arguably Mereum but the source referring to him as a Specialist at all is of questionable canonicity), and Zetsu Mastery (Meleoron, Tserriednich). Neferpitou is supposedly a Specialist, but everything we actually see them do is consistent with them being a Manipulator. Kurapica is arguably the most rule-breaking Specialist, because Emperor Time makes him better at every category of Nen, including Enhancement, even though Enhancement is opposite Specialization on the hexagon. None of the other Specialists we see seem to be getting much of an Enhancement boost; even Benjamin, whose Nen appears to fit into the Theft sub-category, seems to get his extraordinary strength mostly from physical training. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 22:25 on May 28, 2020 |
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May 28, 2020 22:18
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wasnt it that his giant doctor hatsu was specialist but the puppet is a manipulator, then when the puppet controls body its the same kinda thing as super sayian shalnark
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May 28, 2020 22:23
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Silver2195 posted:Neferpitou is supposedly a Specialist, but everything we actually see them do is consistent with them being a Manipulator. Manipulator and Specialist are adjacent though so they'd be totally competent with Manipulation techniques if they were a Specialist. I assume it's a combination of the two (possibly Conjuration as well, also adjacent)
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May 28, 2020 22:24
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I have a theory that specialist as a category doesn't have the same rules for affinity that the other categories have. Kurapika's teacher said that specialist is only placed at the bottom of the hexagon because Manipulators and Conjurers are the two categories that have the highest chance of manifesting a specialist trait. It actually had nothing to do with how well they can perform the other categories. So the situation where Gon is an enhancer that has leanings towards emissions, Specialist is a more free-floating position on the hexagon that can put you closer to other categories than others. Like how Benjamin is a specialist but he's got a strong enough aura to tank bullets, and how Mereum is a specialist but the ability Pitou noted is one that reinforces his body further when he eats an opponent. Both of those guys are specialists leaning towards enhancement. Chrollo and Leol are specialists with a conjurer leaning. Pakunoda and Pitou are specialists leaning towards manipulation. There still are the "pure" specialists, people's whose abilities don't really fit into any other category. Binolt gains knowledge of a target but it's not enhancement or manipulation in appearance. Meleron erases his presence entirely which is something we've seen manifest more in the current arc but still unique enough to be it's own thing. Kurapika is only a specialist in a certain state but gets free affinity with all categories while in it. Neon and Tserr both can see the future. So basically, being a specialist shouldn't automatically mean your enhancement affinity is 40% or whatever the lowest is. You could actually have 100% in enhancement since specialist is described as a trait. As well as the fact that even an enhancer has a > 0% chance to becoming a specialist later in lfe.
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May 28, 2020 22:38
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yeah the nen presentation is actually just netero's personal classification so it's entirely possible that other people (like ninjas) classify nen in different ways than he does if it wasn't an arc that was overstuffed already it would have been neat if the ants didn't get all the nen information hadned to them and ended up needing to figure poo poo out themselves, ending up with a distinct classification system
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May 28, 2020 22:50
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Brought To You By posted:I have a theory that specialist as a category doesn't have the same rules for affinity that the other categories have. Kurapika's teacher said that specialist is only placed at the bottom of the hexagon because Manipulators and Conjurers are the two categories that have the highest chance of manifesting a specialist trait. It actually had nothing to do with how well they can perform the other categories. So the situation where Gon is an enhancer that has leanings towards emissions, Specialist is a more free-floating position on the hexagon that can put you closer to other categories than others. Maybe. Although I noted possible alternative explanations; Benjamin could just be really swole with only a moderate amount of Enhancement on top, and Meruem might actually be an Enhancer rather than a Specialist. Even when he gets new abilities after absorbing Pouf and Youpi, the new abilities are Emission and Transmutation (adjacent to Enhancement).
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May 28, 2020 22:56
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specialists bend the rules, but they can't break them. compare that to alluka, who is outside of the entire nen system and thus working under a completely different and mostly undisclosed set of rules.
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May 28, 2020 23:14
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I thought Muerum was an enhancer. That’s all he did at nen and used it to strengthen his body. Though most of those specialists listed only actually use one type of ability so what’s the point
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May 28, 2020 23:15
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meruem had a naturally powerful body which naturally became more powerful the more and better he ate. then his nen augmented that by also allowing him to absorb aura. also, it's not entirely clear if the nen wheel stuff really applied to him. it takes more time and effort to master an incompatible type, but meruem was so naturally superior to humans that time and effort didn't mean much to him. he could learn basic nen in an instant. he doesn't make for a good example to gauge human nen users by.
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May 28, 2020 23:21
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Man I kind of hate the set up for the Chimera ants. Let's eat a whole bunch of people, only some of them can use Nen, and poop out Cell who is DBZ powerful with no build up. Also there's a cat that is a doctor because???, a butterfly that can mind control and clone because???, and a very powerful body morphing beast (this one makes sense kind of but I hate him still). The arc had some good moments but I'd certainly hope so given how long it was.
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May 28, 2020 23:22
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I mean magical beasts are introduced in the literal opening arc of hunter x hunter. Plus Pitou is just using nen her power is probably more low key than most of the hunters powers. Also Mereum is the best character in the whole series and isn’t even close
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May 28, 2020 23:27
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Silver2195 posted:Maybe. Although I noted possible alternative explanations; Benjamin could just be really swole with only a moderate amount of Enhancement on top, and Meruem might actually be an Enhancer rather than a Specialist. Even when he gets new abilities after absorbing Pouf and Youpi, the new abilities are Emission and Transmutation (adjacent to Enhancement). I'd say that having enough aura to deflect bullets without taking any damage, in addition to having a lion scratching him with no scarring means he has enough aura to throw into defense. Unless it's a different ability (like one belonging to the captain who also got shot in the heart with no problem) Benjamin is on par with a moderate enhancer, he had a better showing than Bill even in the same arc who ate 4 bullets but with actual effort put into the action since he needed to use gyo. Benjamin also has Benjamin's Baton which is definitely a specialist ability since it's one that takes on other people's hatsu. So he's either an enhancer who became a specialist later in life, or he's a natural born specialist with a really high affinity for enhancement. Being swole is just a side effect of him lifting constantly. Mereum got new abilities after he'd consumed the aura of Pouf and Youpi. Going off what Pitou stated earlier in the arc about Mereum assimilating the aura of the consumed I think it's reasonable to put him as a specialist. Interestingly, this capability of his was repeated in a smaller level with Kurapika since Steal Chain lets him take an ability even if he doesn't know what it does which is usually the condition an ability thief has to fullfill among others. Mereum just keeps them even after a single use since the consumed aura it's a part of him. And his ability would make sense given Chimera Ant queens assimilate the traits of creatures they consume for subsequent generations, but Mereum was the apex of his particular colony.
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May 28, 2020 23:45
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