|
You saw characters growing apart and decided it's not development because that's the wrong direction?
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 19:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 02:53 |
|
|
No Wave posted:You saw characters growing apart and decided it's not development because that's the wrong direction?  I was dumb then. Probably still dumb now, but I clearly let my opinion devolve into something you could put on a bumper sticker and it needed the reexamination, so thanks for the wakeup call.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 19:20
|
|
|
Dareon posted:Like, okay, I'm gonna kind of stop stringing the thoughts I have together, because my thoughts for "arc bad" are not so firmly connected, it's like a stew of things I didn't like. There were a lot of characters introduced on both sides whose primary role was jobbers, including the teleporter guy introduced as a huge badass, who jobbed to the spookiness of being in the same building as the King. The ultimate enemy wasn't defeated by any action of the main characters (Which is okay, they had their own personal antagonist in Pitou, but it still feels a bit like watching the DMPC beat up the big bad). A lot of it felt filler-y, including Netero's backstory, it was eventually just hype to let Cell (I honestly can't remember his name, but I too noticed the resemblance) go even further over. The King's sympathetic character arc felt at odds with the otherwise strong portrayal as an inhuman monster that needed to be removed before he could threaten the rest of the world. A lot of that last is on me, at the time I liked a lot of clear good guys punching clear bad guys (Still do somewhat, but I'm more inclined towards nuance than before), if you give a bad guy a redemptive story line, he should be standing with the heroes by the end, not dead. Netero beating Mereum as you partially stated, wasn't the point of Gon's direction as Pitou was the only person he wanted to kill. I can't comment on the pacing as my only frame of reference is the manga but I've seen a clip of Netero's backstory and didn't like how it was directed. Maybe it's more to do with the anime than the manga you'd have to let me know which is more influential on your opinion. Mereum (cell) being made sympathetic is undercut by the fact that the only time he truly understood the value of people was moments before he died. Even when he was talking to Netero it was made clear he was internally conflicted between his desires and drive as an ant, and the humanity he's experiencing. By the time he reached enlightenment it was too late and humanity as a collective had already rejected him. And even when he shows back up at the palace his presence is just a terror for the people he encounters. I'm someone who put Greed Island as his favorite arc but it's not a surprise to me why the CA arc gets the most love of the series as it's got the most dramatic elements as well as some of the better fights and character moments in the series. It's a fairly dense arc outdone only by the current arc in my books.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 19:28
|
|
|
Plus - even if you're totally in love with the Genei Ryodan they get a pretty sweet couple of chapters in there too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 19:30
|
|
|
Controversial take here but I agree that dad-gon should have looked like cousin it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 19:43
|
|
|
Dareon posted:I can buy those explanations, though my immediate reaction is "getting mad is not character development." This is a fairly reductive way of looking at it. What Gon did in that moment is a culmination of who he is as a character. He's not a Goku or a Luffy. He appears that way when we're first introduced to him because he's a cheery, upbeat kid who's stubborn and determined and loves his friends. But there are hints peppered throughout the story that Gon is different from the usual shonen protagonist, because his moral compass is kind of hosed up. Not batting an eye at the deaths of people he doesn't know, but saying he "wouldn't forgive" the Phantom Troupe for doing what they did, only to then be totally cool with the Bombers on Greed Island. He's a kid and his views are inconsistent but he's also incredibly powerful and strong-willed, and that makes him the kind of loose cannon that would do exactly what he did. Kite, who he viewed as a secondary father figure, dies protecting him, he spends the next several weeks stewing in it and not able to do anything about it, eventually finding his puppeted corpse. He convinces himself Kite can be saved or restored or revived or whatever, essentially placing his entire mental and emotional well being on that hope, only for it to be coldly dashed. That powerup didn't come out of nowhere and it wasn't just "getting really mad." quote:Killua getting more independent, sure, I can see that, though it feels like that walks back the general thrust of the series for me, that we're supposed to be watching how these boys grow together and strengthen each other. Going from the dodgeball match and coordinated Bomber hunt at the end of GI to the general solo stagnation in CA felt like a step backwards. Although thinking about it seriously, the only way they could really get more in tune with each other from there would literally be the Fusion Dance. Maybe I'm too used to the infinite shonen progression where they've punched out gods and only ever gotten closer as nakama and the series is still going (Looking at you, One Piece). The issue with this is that everything up to Greed Island is the two of them growing together and strengthening each other.... which is then revealed to kind of be to their own detriment at times. Killua letting Gon destroy his hands in order to win the dodgeball game (and Gon KNOWING what he was doing) is the first big example of that. Killua's arc in Chimera Ant is him learning to be less dependent on Gon, because it was starting to get unhealthy, similar to the relationship he had with Illumi, just much less overtly sinister and creepy. Pulling out Illumi's needle, thinking and acting for his own sake, realizing that Gon isn't the shining beacon of hope Kil had always viewed him as (despite earlier in that very arc claiming he was "light" in a retroactively kind of depressing scene) and eventually being sort of betrayed by Gon as Gon went on his own selfish spiral downward isn't a "step backwards." HxH doesn't work like a standard shonen so applying that kind of Dragonball-esque logic to it doesn't help you or the story. quote:Like, okay, I'm gonna kind of stop stringing the thoughts I have together, because my thoughts for "arc bad" are not so firmly connected, it's like a stew of things I didn't like. There were a lot of characters introduced on both sides whose primary role was jobbers, including the teleporter guy introduced as a huge badass, who jobbed to the spookiness of being in the same building as the King. The ultimate enemy wasn't defeated by any action of the main characters (Which is okay, they had their own personal antagonist in Pitou, but it still feels a bit like watching the DMPC beat up the big bad). A lot of it felt filler-y, including Netero's backstory, it was eventually just hype to let Cell (I honestly can't remember his name, but I too noticed the resemblance) go even further over. The King's sympathetic character arc felt at odds with the otherwise strong portrayal as an inhuman monster that needed to be removed before he could threaten the rest of the world. A lot of that last is on me, at the time I liked a lot of clear good guys punching clear bad guys (Still do somewhat, but I'm more inclined towards nuance than before), if you give a bad guy a redemptive story line, he should be standing with the heroes by the end, not dead. I don't really know how to put my feelings on the ants as a group of characters and as an antagonistic force into words, at least not in a terribly succinct manner (and then I proceeded to write the rest of this paragraph lmao), but the main thing I'll say about them is that at the end of the day the point of delving into their personalities and motivations and showing how they grew and changed was basically just in order to show that they were still human. They had all the flaws and eccentricities of humans in the HxH world but reborn into these monstrous entities, and some of them were perfectly fine with embracing their ant sides, others either remembered bits of their lives as humans like Colt and Welfin or were just unsatisfied working with the others and wanted out, like Meleoron and later Ikalgo. I think without building up these lesser ants to explore the amount they could vary between each other and grow as individuals, it doesn't feel as impactful when Meruem and the Royal Guards do the same thing. Boiling it down to "ok which of these characters live and which ones die, wow i can't believe we spent so much time with that guy only for him to get killed out of nowhere" is doing the story a disservice. You need dipshits like Cheetu sometimes, even if at the end of the day his contributions to the story didn't actually matter. It adds texture to the world. Chimera Ant is a big sprawling story and maybe condensing it down by getting rid of some characters and shortening the run time could've worked but I'm glad it went how it did because it's a fantastic arc with a really interesting cast of characters. Even a guy like Rammot adds to things, I think. quote:Conclusion: Arc... not? bad. I'm not gonna go rewatch it immediately, but at least next time I feel like a rewatch, I'll include it. I hope you do. It's the arc that put HxH over the edge and made it my favorite anime.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 19:47
|
|
|
the only bad part of the chimerant arc is illumi's control over killua being down to a literal pin in his brain he could just take out. i can accept that as a metaphor though
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 19:49
|
|
|
Dareon posted:
The sentiment you have expressed is extremely common and comes up whenever there is an anti-hero, a hero who has to bloody their hands, protagonists who are bad people and aren't actually the heroes of their story, when the hero loses, etc. Many folks--especially younger people--are not fond of/do not understand nuance and moral gray. They are often stuck on the idea that the protagonist is good, the people they come into conflict with are bad; they want to root for the "good guys" and jeer the "bad guys" without reservation. When you offer characters like Walt from Breaking Bad, these same people will root for a character that has been unequivocally shown to be a "bad guy." Which is why you'll find stories where the protagonist who is performing morally questionable actions (e.g. robbing a Vegas casino) will have their actions justified (e.g. portraying the owner as a giant rear end in a top hat who hosed over the protagonist a decade ago). This format shapes our expectations of narratives, and when they defy them, people get upset. When we see the antagonist as more than a one-dimensional villain, we might expect them to redeem themselves somehow or become a "good guy." If not, we're safe to hate on them and endlessly cheer for them to lose in horrible ways.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 19:58
|
|
|
somepartsareme posted:the only bad part of the chimerant arc is illumi's control over killua being down to a literal pin in his brain he could just take out. i can accept that as a metaphor though
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 20:01
|
|
|
somepartsareme posted:the only bad part of the chimerant arc is illumi's control over killua being down to a literal pin in his brain he could just take out. i can accept that as a metaphor though The pin was the last step for that particular arc. Killua has always grappled with his fear over fighting more powerful opponents and his willingness to continue to stick around with Gon. Losing to Shoot was just the final straw but he was already trying to push past the pin's suggestions prior to that. I think it's fine as is.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 20:01
|
|
|
the pin was something well within illumi's established ability and character to do. it's not like it came out of nowhere.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 21:15
|
|
|
It was weird though since by that point I had already forgotten that Killua running away sometimes was even a plot point. In Greed Island, he calmly monologues that Bomber guy who wants to kill him is probably better at Nen than him. I feel like that should have ticked all the necessary check marks, because that was a way closer battle than Killua vs Bird-ant.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 21:28
|
|
|
Also until it was pointed out to him, Killua did not even realize it was a problem. He got over the issue in the Shoot fight, which is when the needles influence started hitting him.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 21:30
|
|
|
oh jay posted:It was weird though since by that point I had already forgotten that Killua running away sometimes was even a plot point. No Killua had analyzed that guy. He noted that the guy had him beat in Aura capacity and that was pretty much it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 21:31
|
|
|
oh jay posted:It was weird though since by that point I had already forgotten that Killua running away sometimes was even a plot point. He says Sub is more experienced as a Nen-user and is physically tough, but by that point the 3 of them know what the bombers' abilities are, and Killua's confident enough he can win that he spends most of the fight testing out his lightning nen and yo-yo attacks. Illumi's influence wasn't to avoid battles with strong opponents, it was never fight unless you know with certainty you can win and to run from any opponent that might be stronger. He has no idea what the chimera ants are capable of and wasn't confident about beating them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 21:38
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:No Killua had analyzed that guy. He noted that the guy had him beat in Aura capacity and that was pretty much it. It feels like Aura capacity and maliciousness are the main things for the trigger, based on what Wing did to him. Serial killers probably have pretty malicious aura right? And if it's just confidence of winning, he wouldn't have been able to even try to escape from Machi back in York New. He should have just been a shivering mess like those other times! I understand what was stated about the needle later on, but I just think that there are too many times that make it really feel that Togashi just thought it up after the fact. No biggie, since that always happens in long running series.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 21:49
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:Also until it was pointed out to him, Killua did not even realize it was a problem. He got over the issue in the Shoot fight, which is when the needles influence started hitting him. I actually think he's always been hearing those kinds of voices, he's just never been in a position to really differentiate them from his own memories and training. Illumi is the one who taught Killua personally, so all his jumpy habits have always been things his brother imprinted on him since he was younger, the needle is just there to reinforce that training.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 21:58
|
|
|
i think of it as the needle being a backup for more conventional conditioning. it didn't take effect until killua had broken the conditioning, so he had more leeway prior to that. it's probably just togashi making up poo poo as he went along, though. that's what every serial fiction writer does.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 21:58
|
|
|
sincere question: is there ANY chance of, or perhaps historical examples of, a mangaka handing off their work to a successor (or in this case his wife!!) to do the drawing so that it actually finishes? it's kinda clear it's just not gonna happen at this point but i'd really love to see the end of this, and its not really like any of us read hxh for togashis specific art style i figure
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 22:57
|
|
|
tbp posted:and its not really like any of us read hxh for togashis specific art style i figure He drew Zhang Lei's nen wheel really good. All of the nen beasts are great. Nothing that can't be designed once and handed off though
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 01:28
|
|
|
I think his art is pretty amazing... Not just the turkey, I don't think anyone else could have drawn Gon vs Nefelpitou or Fei Tan vs Lizard Queen like he did. I'll admit there hasn't been anything since CA that made me think he had to be the one illustrating it though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 01:36
|
|
|
No Wave posted:I think his art is pretty amazing... Not just the turkey, I don't think anyone else could have drawn Gon vs Nefelpitou or Fei Tan vs Lizard Queen like he did. I'll admit there hasn't been anything since CA that made me think he had to be the one illustrating it though. Hisoka v Chrollo was such a wonderfully top to bottom Togashi experience
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 01:47
|
|
|
yeah im not dissing the art. but i dont think it's the main reason anyone comes to hxh
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 01:51
|
|
|
TriffTshngo posted:But there are hints peppered throughout the story that Gon is different from the usual shonen protagonist, because his moral compass is kind of hosed up. Not batting an eye at the deaths of people he doesn't know, but saying he "wouldn't forgive" the Phantom Troupe for doing what they did, only to then be totally cool with the Bombers on Greed Island. He's a kid and his views are inconsistent but he's also incredibly powerful and strong-willed, and that makes him the kind of loose cannon that would do exactly what he did. Not that your overall point isn’t good, but this part specifically is a little off. Gon is unfazed by the Troupe killing people, it’s very specifically the fact that their mass murder is a super hosed up kind of hypocrisy since they all know and understand the pain they frequently inflict on others; if they actually just did the generic “super strong group of anime guys” thing and laughed of Uvo’s death as “heh, he was the weakest of the X anyway” it would have probably not triggered him, at least not enough to overpower Nobunaga. In Greed Island he pretty much shrugs off the deaths the Bombers caused because, well, everyone signed up for a death gauntlet anyway, even if they didn’t sign up to that specific way of dying. Something l really like about Gon as a character is how he’s often very simpleminded but not stupid in a way that often wraps around to seeing things others often miss. Even as far as the first test in the exam where they have the impossible question, he’s the one that takes it the most seriously because yeah, that is an actually might be a problem at some point. Or when he first beats Knuckle he doesn’t take the shogi piece because of pride like a normal shonen protagonist, he doesn’t take it because it defeats the whole point if they can’t beat him in a fair fight.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 01:54
|
|
|
i'd prefer for the manga to continue with togashi writing and drawing, but at this point i'd take whatever i could get.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 02:58
|
|
|
i love the art + the story
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 03:04
|
|
|
gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i'd prefer for the manga to continue with togashi writing and drawing, but at this point i'd take whatever i could get. A finger on the monkey's paw curls, and Rob Liefeld sits bolt upright in bed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 03:53
|
|
|
artwise, and i know im a broken record on it at this point, but im always going to love that panel of tserriednech looking out his room window. it's so grimy and perfect.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 04:02
|
|
|
I’m too lazy to dig out the viz scans but I hated how all the fan scans were in a nuclear arms race to translate the most text onto new hxh chapters. A lot of the official releases cut down any given text by 20-30%
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 14:44
|
|
|
I love the design of tserriednech's nen beast
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 19:45
|
|
|
I love that edit of the particularly text heavy page where it changes it to be about putting milk on cereal.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 21:19
|
|
|
PringleCreamEgg posted:I love that edit of the particularly text heavy page where it changes it to be about putting milk on cereal. I love it so much 
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2020 00:46
|
|
|
Casual anime fan reporting in after finishing 2011 series: - Gon's purity and naivete are somehow not irritating like so many other protagonists. He's a Good Boy and I love him. - Dodgeball was great, but while Killua was being suspicious of Hisoka I thought we were going end up with the whole Troupe roped into the match, which would've been  - I'd long heard about the Chimera Ant arc (it was ace) but I think it could've been condensed by a few episodes. So much intensity going on for so long was honestly tiring. Maybe cut some Pouf shenanigans. - Election Leorio was perfect, on top of every hunter in the world hating Ging. - shame things ended before we got back to Angry Boy Kurapika. - did I miss why many of the Zoldyks call Alluka he/him? - do the bluray releases have a marathon-type option that automatically skips intros/credits/recaps?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 02:33
|
|
|
bees x1000 posted:
They don't give a poo poo about her as a person
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 02:34
|
|
|
bees x1000 posted:- did I miss why many of the Zoldyks call Alluka he/him? It's not explicitly explained, but most likely Alluka is trans and most of the Zoldycks are assholes. The alternative theory I've heard is that it's a situation like Tsurugi Higashikata but in reverse: they suspect that referring to her as male will make the possession stronger so they can keep getting wishes out of her. I think that's a bit too convoluted, but HxH in general tends to be a bit too convoluted. And yeah, either way, they don't give a poo poo about her as a person.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 02:47
|
|
|
bees x1000 posted:Casual anime fan reporting in after finishing 2011 series: I think all of the Zoldyk kids are biologically male, so it’s just them being shits, or honestly not even being aware that Alluka identifies as female since that would require getting to know her and not keeping her locked away in a vault. And having watched most of the series on Blu-Ray, I don’t think there’s any option to skip the opening/credits/recaps in the way you’re talking about but you can always just skip them by skipping to the next part.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 04:19
|
|
|
its honestly a little bit out of character that the extremely methodical and detail oriented assassination family wouldn't figure out the rules surrounding their magical genie child i understand its because of the emotional beat the story wants (they only care about results, killua loves her as a person, he's different than them, etc) but it doesn't actually really jive with how they operate idt
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 14:22
|
|
|
tbp posted:its honestly a little bit out of character that the extremely methodical and detail oriented assassination family wouldn't figure out the rules surrounding their magical genie child I'd argue that. They're already pretty much the top when it comes to their line of work. It is just a matter of minimizing the threats to their power structure. Besides, they did try to analyze Alluka's powers by sacrificing a bunch of servants until they thought they had a good enough read on them. It just so happens Killua figured out the loophole because he happened to spend more time with her and was the only source of positive reinforcement in her life.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 14:37
|
|
|
they don't need her mojo because as far as they know everything alluka can do has a price. the zoldycks can obtain just about anything themselves, and anything past that would definitely have a catastrophic price. they really do not need alluka's help to kill anyone so what good is she?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 14:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 02:53 |
|
|
AlternateNu posted:I'd argue that. They're already pretty much the top when it comes to their line of work. It is just a matter of minimizing the threats to their power structure. Besides, they did try to analyze Alluka's powers by sacrificing a bunch of servants until they thought they had a good enough read on them. It just so happens Killua figured out the loophole because he happened to spend more time with her and was the only source of positive reinforcement in her life. actually yknw ... if i think about it more you're probs right. they get to the pt where they're like "okay we can do wishes but going any further than this IS a bit risky" so they call it there, makes sense
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 14:46
|
|