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boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

I fully expect to get poo poo on and laughed out of this thread because of the history and nature of SEO, particularly, but I've had a few people PM me asking for a thread about this and I have seen a few questions here in A/T without very good or comprehensive answers, so have at it. Ask away!

Bona Fides: I've been running my own digital marketing consulting firm for the last year and a half after having worked for 8 years in two of California's larger and some of its smaller digital agencies. I have a book on Amazon about working in an agency that sells a few copies a month , and I have recorded lessons for Knowledge City. I spend at least an hour to two a day just reading, trying to keep up on the industry. I currently manage clients that spend from $200 to $2000 a month (though in the past I have worked with clients spending hundreds of thousands, one man shops don't attract that kind of business, unfortunately) and my primary job is writing marketing plans and budgets for startups and doing whitelabel SEO work for agencies. I've probably worked on something like 300 accounts so far doing everything from PPC to SEO to Social Media to Email to Marketing Automation like Marketo, you name it.

There is a lot of bullshit and bad information out there, it seems like there are 10x as many people trying to make a buck off of knowing about internet marketing as there are actually doing the work- the current business model is to get some people in the US with good communication skills as 'account managers', buff up a sales team, and outsource the work to India or the Philippines. A lot of companies are even opening offices there so that they can tell clients who don't like the idea of outsourcing the labor that they "offshore" the work. Then the account managers just hang on to their existing clients as long as they can, results or not.

It's not all bad, though, and it's not ALL bullshit, though. I'll start by answering a question from another thread here in A/T:

Eat Bum Zen posted:

Before I begin looking into SEO consulting firms and hiring people outside of my company, I'd really like to have enough background knowledge on how search engine optimization actually works. It doesn't seem like a good idea to schedule time with an expensive firm on a subject I have absolutely no knowledge in.

I'm a little lost, however, as to where I should start.

Can anyone recommend a place, or places, where I can start to build a working knowledge of how SEO works, the mathematics behind it, etc.? I apologize if the question is very broad.

Honestly, if you have several hours and a nice cup of coffee, the beginner's guide to SEO from MOZ is probably your best bet.

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Noun Verber
Oct 12, 2006

Cool party, guys.
So that website you linked used whatever this is to justify SEO's existance:

quote:

Imagine you posted online a picture of your family dog. A human might describe it as "a black, medium-sized dog, looks like a Lab, playing fetch in the park." On the other hand, the best search engine in the world would struggle to understand the photo at anywhere near that level of sophistication. How do you make a search engine understand a photograph? Fortunately, SEO allows webmasters to provide clues that the engines can use to understand content. In fact, adding proper structure to your content is essential to SEO.
Can you translate this into something sensible? It seems like the author is saying search engines have no way of knowing what content is on a website, which seems like an outright lie.

E: I get if someone's website is an complete mess created by someone they hired off the forums, but there has to be a more elegant way to detail what's on a website other than loading it full of a bunch of barely-relevant whitetext.

Noun Verber fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Mar 5, 2016

onemillionzombies
Apr 27, 2014

I'll take a stab, feel free to correct.

When google crawls a website and it encounters an image it doesn't actually "see" the image as we do, it sees the HTML code: <img src="smiley.gif" alt="Smiley face"</img>

Good basic SEO practice is to have an image name with an alt tag which both have relevance to the rest of your page and what you believe your customers would search for in google. So if you're selling Cool Ranch Doritos you'd probably want something like <img src="coolranchdoritos.jpg" alt="Cool Ranch Doritos"</img>. Ideally you'd have some keyword analysis on what people are actually searching for to find your specific product then adjust your content to that research which hopefully results in more hits and better ranking.

Its been generally recommended to limit images so web crawlers better understand what your webpage is about through header tags and such.

onemillionzombies fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Mar 5, 2016

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

onemillionzombies posted:

When google crawls a website and it encounters an image it doesn't actually "see" the image as we do, it sees the HTML code: <img src="smiley.gif" alt="Smiley face"</img>

Good basic SEO practice is to have an image name with an alt tag which both have relevance to the rest of your page and what you believe your customers would search for in google. Its been generally recommended to limit images so web crawlers better understand what your webpage is about through header tags and such.

This is a good answer but yes, in general Google does a bad job at interpreting the actual content of an image, so you name the file, caption and alt tag to indicate the content of the picture. The bots can only read text, at this point, still. A long time SEO deliverable used to keep clients on the hook and show "work being done" is to add descriptive text to the alt attribute of an image file- supposedly, this makes the site more accessible to the blind and as such all things being equal, Google gives a site with descriptive alt text priority over a site without it. Its a very, very minor consideration, though.

Remember always that sites like MOZ have something to sell, and so they will always make things such as image alt text appear to be a bigger deal than it is. At the end of the day, SEO is a set of standard practices and you don't have a ton of room for creativity if you're doing things right.

boar guy fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Mar 5, 2016

onemillionzombies
Apr 27, 2014

I'll ask plainly: is SEO / Internet Marketing worth getting into now as a career? I'm a baby web designer / front-end developer but i'm keeping my options open. The bullshit is pretty off putting though.. I wouldn't last very long with a company that is essentially scamming clients over SEO.

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

Sure, absolutely. I recommend working in an agency just because of the sheer amount of variety and different situations you get exposed to; you can't help but learn a lot, and fast. An entry level SEO account manager job probably pays 35-45k with plenty of room to move so it's quite viable as a career. It's only getting more legitimate, too, though SEO as a specialty is probably shrinking too much too support vendors who only provide that service. The move is more towards providing all sorts of services under one roof- the guys just offering better rankings through SEO are the ones to watch out for, "churn and burn" and "pump and dump" are popular jingos in the industry. You don't want to work for anyone offering back linking, a gold/silver/platinum package, or service for less than at least a few hundred dollars a month.

Snatch Duster
Feb 20, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

onemillionzombies posted:

I'll ask plainly: is SEO / Internet Marketing worth getting into now as a career? I'm a baby web designer / front-end developer but i'm keeping my options open. The bullshit is pretty off putting though.. I wouldn't last very long with a company that is essentially scamming clients over SEO.

A little history about SEO and digital marketing. Up to about 2010 anyone with a computer and internet connection could call themselves a digital marketing expert or an SEO. Still to this day, there are tons of people working from home or at an agency claiming they know what they are doing. I would wager about 70% are doing poo poo that is so outdated or not in their clients best interest, not because they are bad, but very few know what works or why it works.

Any jackass can fire up Adwords, download keyword editor, and plug in poo poo from keyword planner. And for the most part, this is what many marketers do. I just finished an analysis for Web.com, who spends $1 million a month in adwords. Their poo poo looks like baby's first campaigns, which makes sense because it was build (and not rebuilt) in 2009.

So if you are thinking of going into this field, I think it is smart. More and more budgets are being moved over to digital from traditional, and most of those ad dollars are going to content creation. The next big thing will be content promotion, which SHOULD be part of creation but most agencies do 80/20 on creation to promotion. That should be reversed imo. This change in focus is also affecting SEO, since companies are starting to pay for SEO on the content they create and not just their home, category, or product pages.

With that said, you can make good money off of a few clients and work remotely. The trouble will be staying on top of weekly changes, which is essentially the most important thing when companies outsource their digital marketing. You'll have to be passionate about what you do otherwise you'll end up burnt out.

Eat Bum Zen
Jul 19, 2013

*mumbles*
Rated T for Teen
Thanks for posting!

My goal is to not come off as an idiot/be taken for all our marketing budget after talking to a couple of advertising firms.

Quick question:
Is time the limiting factor on advertising through SEO? Or, is there a certain period I should expect to be disappointed by the analytics even if we're dumping money into a specialized firm?

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

Yes, time is the limiting factor with organic SEO. But if you don't see some ranking movement on some of your key terms in the first 45 days, your vendor is loving up.

EDIT: The main question to get an agency to answer is, what's my Return on Investment? If they are just giving you a list of the deliverables they intend to perform and at what price, that's not really doing Internet Marketing. If you just want on page, commodity-type optimization you can get it done very cheaply overseas.

If you let me have a URL I can give you a gauge of what I think would be reasonable for a firm to charge you, per month. A lot of my job is auditing other SEOs to make sure their clients are getting what they paid for.

boar guy fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Mar 8, 2016

Snatch Duster
Feb 20, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Eat Bum Zen posted:

Thanks for posting!

My goal is to not come off as an idiot/be taken for all our marketing budget after talking to a couple of advertising firms.

Quick question:
Is time the limiting factor on advertising through SEO? Or, is there a certain period I should expect to be disappointed by the analytics even if we're dumping money into a specialized firm?

If you are thinking of doing anything digital you should consider a paid campaign over SEO since it sounds like you are looking for a fast return. As for the fear being taken for all your money, I would suggest finding a guy you like personally that is big on communication.

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

Yep, as Snatch Duster rightfully points it, it's very very easy (by design) to waste lots of money with Google AdWords. Also, consider that Facebook advertising costs about half as much. A reasonable mangaement fee on a 10k monthly AdWords spend is 8-10%, and a reasonable SEO fee can be literally anything, depending on what you want to accomplish, how much content you want created, the level of depth in Analytics you want, yadda yadda

also snatch duster i didnt mean to throw shade at your thread, i just had a few pms asking me to start one :shrug:

...and onemillion zombies the very first thing i would look for in a candidate to do seo/sem is the ability to write. Design/code is secondary, though it definitely doesn't hurt to know both. Most of the time, you will be writing instructions to developers rather than doing the work yourself, if you go into the industry.

boar guy fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Mar 9, 2016

Snatch Duster
Feb 20, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Efexeye posted:

Yep, as Snatch Duster rightfully points it, it's very very easy (by design) to waste lots of money with Google AdWords. Also, consider that Facebook advertising costs about half as much. A reasonable mangaement fee on a 10k monthly AdWords spend is 8-10%, and a reasonable SEO fee can be literally anything, depending on what you want to accomplish, how much content you want created, the level of depth in Analytics you want, yadda yadda

also snatch duster i didnt mean to throw shade at your thread, i just had a few pms asking me to start one :shrug:

...and onemillion zombies the very first thing i would look for in a candidate to do seo/sem is the ability to write. Design/code is secondary, though it definitely doesn't hurt to know both. Most of the time, you will be writing instructions to developers rather than doing the work yourself, if you go into the industry.

Yea no worries. That thread is specific to starting up a drop shipping site. A general thread is good to have imo.

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

Okay, here is a Thing I wrote a while back (5 years ago, actually) on how to do basic keyword research. This is not comprehensive as I have some other things I do as part of the process as well, but I want to provide a value add to thread readers :) I would generally charge a client 500 bucks for this service as a one-off, and it is the literal most important step in the process in my opinion.


Tools Used

Microsoft Excel (though a Google Docs spreadsheet would work just as well if you can’t afford Office)

It should be obvious to anyone that you’re going to need a spreadsheet to keep track of the potentially hundreds or thousands of keywords we might look at for a site. Actually, if you claim to do SEO for a living and you aren’t familiar with spreadsheet software and how useful it is…you probably haven’t been doing SEO for long. That’s okay, this post will be a crystal clear indicator of why anyone in SEO or digital marketing needs to learn and breathe and own Excel.

Google’s Adwords Keyword Suggestion Tool

There are many tools out there for keyword research; most of them are glorified spreadsheets using an API to pull data from this tool. We can use the data collected on the PPC side of things to look for semantically related keywords to those on our site and also get a rough- I stress the word ROUGH- estimate of the search volume during the course of a month for a particular term. Why’s that important? Well, I can rank a page optimized for a 7 word keyword phrase in first position in approximately 4-8 hours after the Caffeine update. However, if no one ever searches for that keyword phrase, what’s the point? Keyword research isn’t all about search volume and going after the most searched terms; it’s about defining a site’s niche and setting realistic goals. Also, another important point- if you have the client’s PPC data to leverage as part of the campaign, absolutely take advantage of that. Nothin’ beats hard data- not even Adwords.

semrush.com

I have a paid account to SEM Rush as I find it absolutely essential to doing keyword research. Basically, using extrapolation, SEM Rush estimates what keywords are sending organic traffic to your site, and at what percentage. As you can see for this picture, and according to SEM Rush, the branded term “Nike” is sending 6.41 percent of all nike.com’s traffic to the home page:

SEM Rush data for Nike



If you look closely you see another instance of the word “Nike” right there in the top ten- but those visitors land on the store.nike.com subdomain. It’s wholly possible (though unlikely) for one site to have one keyword sending 100% of its organic traffic all to different URLs.

Open Site Explorer

Open Site Explorer from Seattle tools vendor SEOMOZ lets you quickly evaluate your and the competition’s back links, including the number of links and the number of unique inbound domains, both critically important ranking factors. We’ll use this data after we do the first round of research to help us define what a realistic site goal looks like, and what phrases that shake out of the research we actually have a chance of ranking for.

Google Search

Uh….I don’t think I have to teach anyone reading my blog how to use Google search, though we will use the ‘intitle’ and exact match operators. Here is a of Google advanced search operators, you could spend a week alone uncovering keywords for a site once you learn how to use these. Absolutely essential!

The first step in the process is of course, when you get a client! Hopefully you’ve completed some sort of pre screening process where they lay out what their goals are for the campaign, explain how they’d like the content written, laid out any other external assets you can leverage, described a typical sales cycle, provided basic customer demographics and shared any other info that will get you intimately acquainted with their business- and that- understanding your client’s business and marketing goals- is the real first step. Anyway, part of that evaluation should be “what 3 to 5 keywords would you most like to rank for?” Frankly, the range is varied here. Some clients will give you full reign to recommend keywords to them, some will have a list of ten thousand that “they’d like us to work on” and some will have one vanity head term like “shoes” that’s simply going to be impossible to make progress on. The method given here lays out the keywords for the client but then leaves the ultimate decision up to them. Let’s get started, shall we?

Our virtual client in this case is going to be a brand new site, specializing in…disc golf. Why not? I simply picked the topic out of a hat. I’m going to assume that this client came to us with no website to draw off of but simply has the URL ilovediscgolf.com (URL is not as important as it once was for keyword research when exact match domains ruled the roost). I am going to assume this client has little to no SEO knowledge, and the only word they vaguely might want to rank for is the word “disc golf”. This is actually the ideal time to get involved in an SEO campaign, when the slate is still blank. Far too often SEO is a secondary consideration and we are brought in to “fix” an existing site after it may be too late…but I digress :)

The first step is simply to get a pad of paper, or an Excel sheeet, or a Word doc, or a text file, or however you like to create, and start brainstorming words that you think people who are looking for a disc golf site would key in to find a site. I’ll truncate what would normally be a list of at least 50 words for the purposes of getting done with this post some time tonight to around 10 words.

disc golf, play disc golf, disc golf information, buy disc golf supplies, buy golf discs, frisbee golf, frolf, frisbee golf courses, disc golf rules, frisbee golf forum

Throw those words into tab 1 of your Excel spreadsheet. Remember, you should be absolutely exhausting every single related word that you can before you go to the tools. Your intuition is one of your best assets in SEO- and an English degree ain’t not bad neither! I just don’t like doing free work for imaginary clients so I am keeping it very small in scope.

Then, go to the Google Adwords tool and log in. Why log in? You’ll get more suggestions. Paste the keywords you just brainstormed into the tool and hit Search. Before you go to look at the results, make sure you go to the left hand side, and under “Match Types”, un-check “Broad” and check “Exact”. You should also make sure the checkbox that says “only show ideas that are closely related to my search terms” is checked, as well. This will return something that looks like this:



The tool shows approximate relative PPC competition for each phrase, and then the approximate number of Global (the entire World) and Local (US only- since I’m in the US) monthly searches for those keyword phrases. You can also see that the system has suggested an additional 744 related keyword terms we might want to look at. That’s too many to be realistic, so we can cut the list down a bit right away. Export the file and then pick a point at which the keyword volume is too low to bother going after. This depends on how granular keywords are, among other things- a small, localized site might get a lot of benefit from going after words with only 100 or 200 searches a month; but it might not be worth a larger site’s time to go after words with such a low volume. Once you’ve culled this list to about 200 keywords- you can also manually go through all 744 if you like and remove all the branded and unrelated terms before doing the “search volume cutoff”- take those words and chuck em’ in that same first tab of your spreadsheet.

Now, go to Google Search and check who’s ranking at the top of the results page for some of your most relevant, high volume keywords. You can probably throw out sites like Wikipedia as competitors if you don’t have a gigantic budget. Write down the top 5 competitors for your 3 most desirable (preliminary) terms. Now, it’s time to go to SEM Rush, which will show you the same report we looked at for Nike; for your competitor’s sites. Again, this is just an approximation, none of the numbers given should be taken as absolute. Write down the top ten traffic driving terms for each of those websites. Repeat the process with Adwords that you used for the initial set. Throw that “clean”- meaning scrubbed of irrelevant and competitor’s branded terms- into a second tab in your spreadsheet.

At this point you have a pretty good list, maybe a thousand keywords for this imaginary site. It’s time again to cull the list; picking a cutoff point and simply dropping everything below a certain predetermined search volume, just to keep the list manageable. If you have time to go through the process I am about to lay out for all 1000 keywords, you either are in-house SEO, work from home for one client, or have a very, very understanding boss :) I like to go into this last step with about 200 keywords to evaluate.

Back to Excel. Start a new tab. Copy the contents of the other two tabs. Sort alphabetically, and remove all the duplicates. I also negative out misspellings, because I don’t like playing the “optimize for misspellings” game. Then, we’re going to scrub this data a little. You can eliminate the “global monthly searches” column, unless you have a client who services customers or ships products world wide. Then, add two column headers, bringing you to a total of three: “Optimized Competing Pages” and “Competitive Ratio”:

Keyword Research Spreadsheet



My next step is to go back to Google, and for each of these terms, do an intitle operator search. The goal here is to figure out how many pages on the Internet exist with the exact match phrase in their title, and the assumption I make is that if the page has the phrase in the title, it’s been to an extent optimized. So, for “disc golf” I go to Google and enter intitle:”disc golf” and then perform the search. Then, I go up the address bar and append &pws=0 to whatever URL the search result page generated, and hit Search again, just to make sure that there’s no personalization affecting anything. In this specific case, there are 2,530,000 pages optimized for that term (whoah), so that goes in column C. At the end of this process (Again, just for the initial set of 10 out-of-the-air words), your spreadsheet looks something like this:



Then, you go through and you divide the number of pages by the number of searches. This will give you an idea of what’s not being served to the User when they search- the higher the ratio, the better. If you can find a few keyword phrases with a high search volume and a low number of competing optimized pages, the keyword research has been worth it and you’ve earned yourself some Thai for lunch.

After you go through and do this, your spreadsheet will look something like this:



Bear in mind, you should really do this full process for all of those 200 basic keywords. Put your headphones on and just crank it out, you can do a hundred an hour; no problem. I like Count Basie. At the end, sort by “Competitive Ratio” and try to pare the list down to about 50 words. If any words strike you as particularly relevant but don’t look good based on raw numbers, feel free to leave them in; I’m just trying to keep this manageable. Your gut is smart and you should listen to it. Incidentally, I’d expect this overall process to reasonably take 4-8 hours, depending on the vertical and the size of the site.

Now, you have a list of about 50 keywords, their search volumes, the number of competitors, and the “Competitive Ratio”. Take those 50 or so terms and give them their own tab on the spreadsheet. Now it’s time to do one more piece of research. First, we need to add three more columns to the spreadsheet- “#1 Result”, “Inbound Links” and “Unique Inbound Domains”. Now, go to to Google and search for each of the 50 words, and copy/paste the URL that comes up into the newest column on your spreadsheet, again, cutting out stuff like Wikipedia or Nike. After THAT, head on over to Open Site Explorer and run that # 1 result for each keyword through the tool, transposing the proper number of inbound domains and inbound links for each keyword. At the end of that process your spreadsheet will look something like this (I made these numbers up for the sake of this post; none of the sites that would be competing with our virtual client have authoritative enough sites to be in the OSE index):



Now, we have a nice, neat, one page sheet at the beginning of a spreadsheet with tabs showing what we did every step of the way. We have a snapshot of information our client can use to make their choice about what keywords they want us to market- or a solid research-based foundation for what we might choose to work on. I sometimes like to take the extra step of color coding the top ten green, the middle 30, and the last 10 red after sorting by “Competitive Ratio”. I then recommend the client choose 5 of the red, 10 of the black, and 5 of the green. Everyone loves color coding, right? It’s nice and easy to understand.

There will be people who will email me saying I shouldn’t have given away this much of my process but as I stressed throughout, this is just one way of doing it. There are wholly different methods for say; a blog, or an e-commerce site. You have to develop your own process. Don’t take what you read as gospel truth; use your brain! It’s not difficult to come up with or follow a mechanical process; or even write software that would do exactly what I just described.

Without answers to “okay, now what do we do with this data”- you’re not realizing your full potential. That’s where you get to be creative, that’s where you connect with the client and that’s how you succeed. Research. Document. Implement. Document. Test. Document. Repeat. Document :)

boar guy fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Mar 11, 2016

Fried Watermelon
Dec 29, 2008


I find thats the biggest trick in the SEO, and SEM industry, not thinking for yourself.

There are so many "LEARN THE TOP 10 BEST SEO TIPS" for $9.99 E-Book websites out there that are all basically saying the same thing, giving the same useless advice.

If you want to learn how to proceed after all your data collection, open up a Statistics book.

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

Internet Marketing is sort of like hiring a plumber- sure, you could do the work yourself but you've got other things to do. So you hire a pro.

EDIT: Just to expand on the above post, yes, SEO is still seen as this sort of mythical thing that if you can just find the right person and pay them the right amount of money they will hand you the keys to unlock the magical kingdom of internet riches. SEO salespeople prey on the assumption in people's minds that front page rankings automatically mean more business and sales- but what if you sell mattresses? What kind of idiot would buy a mattress over the internet, without laying on it and touching it first? So no amount of internet marketing will help that business. The phrase from salespeople when you ask why they don't point this out and set a more realistic expectation is "well you can't destroy all their hope right away or they'll never buy anything".

boar guy fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Mar 11, 2016

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

Here's a perfect example of some of the smoke and mirrors that goes on in the business that I don't care for. MOZ (I linked to it in the first post) is an SEO tools vendor. They have a feature called Whiteboard Friday whereby they supposedly reveal some amazing new SEO tactic to people who follow their blog (always ALWAYS followed with a sales pitch) every week. Here's this week's: https://moz.com/blog/related-topics-in-seo-whiteboard-friday

All of that to essentially say, if you want to rank for a topic, include content and keywords that are related to your main topic. That's all it says. But they dress it up with fancy Δ symbols to make it look scientific. They put out lots of info with seemingly hard indisputable numbers, but the fact is that what works with one vertical/brand will not work with another, and one case study isn't good data. No one case study can be generalized to any campaign or even industry. Please always remember that stuff like this is designed to obscure the process, not make it simpler. Rand is a salesman. This one is less egregious than most- but it's still ultimately a piece of native content to advertise with, and not anything really actionable.

Brut
Aug 21, 2007

What is your opinion of Screaming Frog's spider tool? What are some common things it (or a tool like it) would typically pull up that you would find most actionable?

What would be the key things with which differentiate a marketing strategy for a company advertising on-demand services (say, an emergency plumber) vs one promoting something product-based that people may find out about in advance and decide to purchase at their leisure (like a pizza shop or whatever)?

Sepherothic
Feb 8, 2003

So lets say I am a content creator with a marketing budget of 200 bucks a month.

Whats the best use of my money? Right now I mostly just do some banner ads, and an email campaign now and then. How much can SEO or whatever actually make a difference? Or is it just a fire to throw money on...

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

Brut posted:

What is your opinion of Screaming Frog's spider tool? What are some common things it (or a tool like it) would typically pull up that you would find most actionable?

What would be the key things with which differentiate a marketing strategy for a company advertising on-demand services (say, an emergency plumber) vs one promoting something product-based that people may find out about in advance and decide to purchase at their leisure (like a pizza shop or whatever)?

I use Screaming Frog nearly daily :) The most actionable things it will pull up is error/unresponsive pages, and duplicate metadata (titles and descriptions).

Both of the markets you mention are particularly competitive. Emergency remediation companies, in particular, pay $40 a click for AdWords clicks with no guarantee of a conversion for words like "flood repair" or "water cleanup". You would not believe how competitive a keyword like "emergency locksmith" is. Restaurant marketing is also insanely competitive just because there are so many, and because they come and go all the time and Google in particular doesn't do a good job differentiating restaurants that close at one address from the new ones that open there.

I really strongly recommend that anyone trying to compete in a local market just make sure you are as visible as possible. A service such as ubl.org can ensure that you have consistent NAP (name, address and phone number) results across many different services and directories, which, if you've ever done Facebooks suggested edits you'll know is something that needs verifying and re-verifying all the time. For services such as restaurants and plumbers, as much as I hate to say it, a Yelp optimization is almost a necessity- pay them their blood money and encourage clients to leave you good ratings. Make sure your G+ business page is filled out, every single field, with hours, freaking map coordinates, whatever fields they give you to optimize, use them. Now that right side ads are gone, they are largely being replaced with the knowledge carousel, which means you can control the information people see in the largest visual space on the page. The restaurant would want to make sure they are optimized for FourSquare and consider loading their menu into MyFitnessPal, while the plumber might want to claim an Angie's list account and run click-to-call ads. This is what I mean when I say there is no one strategy per vertical, it really does need to be customized to every single campaign.

Sepherothic posted:

So lets say I am a content creator with a marketing budget of 200 bucks a month.

Whats the best use of my money? Right now I mostly just do some banner ads, and an email campaign now and then. How much can SEO or whatever actually make a difference? Or is it just a fire to throw money on...

SEO doesn't have to be something you spend money on; I sense you're thinking of it in the traditional sense which is "pay someone to spin out a poo poo ton of content to expand the footprint of the site" or "pay people to link to my page". SEO is something you can do yourself, the on page commoditized stuff such as meta titles and descriptions, inline links, the simple mechanical elements can be handled with the Yoast plugin and a halfway decent mind for writing. If I had $200 a month I would probably invest money in Facebook or Linkedin sponsored/promoted content- both allow you to define a more narrowly targeted audience than Google and can get your stuff in front of a lot of eyeballs very quickly. Facebook PPC is also half the cost of Google PPC, in my experience. Email is also super cost effective but again, it takes some effort to craft an email that won't get trashed.

But the main thing to remember is, it has to lead somewhere. So you spend $200 on Facebook ads and you get 200 new likes from actual people who liked whatever you had to say in that post/ad, and they are actually interested in your product (very different from buying likes from MTurk or some Indian site). Now what do you do?

TheReverend
Jun 21, 2005

So I have a part time business. It's new. I've learned as much as I can about SEO and I'm having problems with one thing.

Searches for : "The Rev's horrible business" turns up my horrible business. Easy. Great.

The problem is, I'm kinda of a niche business. People don't know they want my particular business (like" Wendy's), they know that want someone , anyone, in the business ("lovely fast food hamburgers").

I've tried to fill my website with "lovely fast food hamburgers" and I'm nowhere on the organic listings. I have some adwords running that turn up for those searches but I'd really like to fix my organic problems.

Any ideas on what to do for organic?

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

Reeeeally broad question without knowing about your keywords and niche and competition, but the simple answer is the best way to rank organically is to attract links. You have to write content to attract them, or use a service like UBL.org...also Google+ is important for ranking in local searches. Yelp reviews. Star ratings on your Facebook page. Good old fashioned word of mouth. An ad in a trade journal. Lots of things can lead to more organic traffic.

And set your expectations realistically. I worked with a lady once who spent 1k a month in PPC advertising a rehab home with no organic content, just ads, and she wondered why she couldn't compete with Passages Malibu at $90 a click for 'los angeles rehab homes'. If you're that niche, perhaps there just aren't that many searches? B2B type services tend not to attract a lot of organic traffic, particularly.

As always, feel free to send me a PM with more info. You can also use the AdWords keyword tool to get an estimate of what type of search volume Google lies about there being for your terms :)

boar guy fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Mar 14, 2016

Brut
Aug 21, 2007

Efexeye posted:

I use Screaming Frog nearly daily :) The most actionable things it will pull up is error/unresponsive pages, and duplicate metadata (titles and descriptions).

Can you speak a bit about the changes that seem to have occurred over the last few years in terms of meta fields importance? I remember meta keywords were super important (over a decade ago) and eventually became completely unused due to their spamming. It seems like the new version is H1-6 tags, should I even worry about having anything at all in terms of meta keywords on my pages? Do I care about maintaining some kind of specific relationship between the meta description of a page and the H1 tag on that page?

I'm having trouble phrasing this as one cohesive question but basically it seems to be pretty hard to find a real best practices guide with all these different tags.

Additionally, it looks like over the past couple of years a system called JSON-LD is being widely adopted for better (compared to some other system that was previously used for this? I'm not too sure) cross-site data management and retrieval, I'm still wrapping my head around all of the things it can do but it seems like the primary use for my purposes would be the LocalBusiness classification ( https://schema.org/LocalBusiness ), I see that google have a tool ( https://developers.google.com/structured-data/testing-tool/ ) that allows me to check my JSON-LD syntax to make sure I didn't mess up in terms of the formatting/brackets etc, however it does not show a preview of any sort in terms of what google will actually do with that data in terms of populating their infoboxes. One of the things we are trying to accomplish is getting google to properly identify our social media pages (gplus, facebook, yelp, etc) as belonging to the domain, so that when that domain shows up in the search results, it will show up with it's review score directly attached to the search result.

Does it seem like my understanding of this is generally correct? Am I missing something? Whatever insight you might have on this whole thing would be fantastic!

Great thread so far btw!

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

Brut posted:

Can you speak a bit about the changes that seem to have occurred over the last few years in terms of meta fields importance? I remember meta keywords were super important (over a decade ago) and eventually became completely unused due to their spamming. It seems like the new version is H1-6 tags, should I even worry about having anything at all in terms of meta keywords on my pages? Do I care about maintaining some kind of specific relationship between the meta description of a page and the H1 tag on that page?

I'm having trouble phrasing this as one cohesive question but basically it seems to be pretty hard to find a real best practices guide with all these different tags.

Additionally, it looks like over the past couple of years a system called JSON-LD is being widely adopted for better (compared to some other system that was previously used for this? I'm not too sure) cross-site data management and retrieval, I'm still wrapping my head around all of the things it can do but it seems like the primary use for my purposes would be the LocalBusiness classification ( https://schema.org/LocalBusiness ), I see that google have a tool ( https://developers.google.com/structured-data/testing-tool/ ) that allows me to check my JSON-LD syntax to make sure I didn't mess up in terms of the formatting/brackets etc, however it does not show a preview of any sort in terms of what google will actually do with that data in terms of populating their infoboxes. One of the things we are trying to accomplish is getting google to properly identify our social media pages (gplus, facebook, yelp, etc) as belonging to the domain, so that when that domain shows up in the search results, it will show up with it's review score directly attached to the search result.

Does it seem like my understanding of this is generally correct? Am I missing something? Whatever insight you might have on this whole thing would be fantastic!

Great thread so far btw!

I can vouch for the fact that the meta keywords tag is worse than useless- some search engines look to see if you are using that field and ding you for spam, if you do, and that tag lets anyone with the ability to hit ctrl-U see exactly what you're trying to optimize the page to rank for. Don't use that tag, period. As for H1 tags, they are a throwback to the print days when the size of the text indicated organization and importance visually, to the reader. You should make sure you have a unique H1 tag that's different from the title tag on each page, but only use H2-and down if it makes sense to organize your content that way. Anything that needs an H3 tag is probably better off as its own page in a subdirectory of a parent.

I'm not really familiar with JSON-LD, I just use Schema markup when I need to (I usually don't, this is more for sites with thousands of products or as a value add after the other work is done). Sounds like you're doing it right...I'm not sure what you mean by having social media pages belong to your domain in some "official" capacity though so perhaps you can provide some additional insight...review scores for social media pages are not something I'm used to. I do know that Google automatically shows star ratings in search results from Yelp, Facebook Business and Google+. Sorry, I guess I don't really get the question...please try again :)

...and you're welcome! Glad to do it. One of the cool things about Internet Marketing is that you can be on SA at work and call it market research.

Sepherothic
Feb 8, 2003

Okay. Then can anyone recommend a beginner SEO tutorial, something that isn't a spammy ebook full of useless crap?

Brut
Aug 21, 2007

Sorry, I was kind of grouping the google local page and yelp page (which have reviews) with other pages such as facebook and G+ when I said social media pages.

What I mean is, if I search for "Plumber Manhattan" I get an organic search result that looks like this:



My initial impression was that this was directly pulling that rating from their reviewable pages, however upon looking closer to write this post I'm realizing that this may be even more manufactured than I thought, it looks like their actual page code just has this:

code:
<div class="local-page-heading page-navbar" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/LocalBusiness">
    <div class="container roto-container">
        <div class="row">
            <div class="col-lg-11 col-md-12 col-sm-11 col-xs-12 center-block roto-container-inner">
                <div class="navbar-wrapper">
                    <div class="gutterless-col col-lg-6 col-md-6 col-sm-7 col-xs-12"
                         itemprop="aggregateRating" itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/AggregateRating">

                        <meta itemprop="ratingValue" content="5"/>
                        <meta itemprop="ratingCount" content="50"/>
This seems to be dictating to Google that this page has 50 reviews at an average of 5 stars, as far as I can tell there is no actual verification happening as to the validity of that information. On the actual page there is a clickable link that leads to a general review page (on their site), which LOOKS like it pulls reviews from yelp/angies/google however might not actually be, I'm not quite sure.

Now, the above code is using Microdata from schema.org, but JSON-LD is also a form of schema.org markup, finalized in 2014 and adopted in 2015. For example i http://schema.org/LocalBusiness, scroll down and the code examples are given in various formats, the newest of which (and as far as I can tell, recommended for everyone to switch to) is JSON-LD

As far as I can tell, the intended use of this particular code type is for websites like Yelp to show other review scores just like you mentioned, however what is actually happening is that the website itself is pretending to BE a review site, and is referencing review's of it's own page as if that page was a separate business that they are hosting reviews for. Yikes.

I guess the equivalent JSON-LD would be something like:

code:
<script type="application/ld+json">
{
  "@context": "http://schema.org",
  "@type": "LocalBusiness",
"aggregateRating":{"@type":"AggregateRating","ratingValue":"5","ratingCount":"50"}
}
</script>
Along with all the other stuff that would be in there like the usual business info.

EDIT: second code snippet syntax now actually correct

Brut fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Mar 14, 2016

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

Sepherothic posted:

Okay. Then can anyone recommend a beginner SEO tutorial, something that isn't a spammy ebook full of useless crap?

Specifically on how to write and optimize a page of content? I can do that, if that's what you want :)

1. Write a Meta title that includes the keyword you want to rank for at the front, and that is 55 or fewer characters. Use the whole space.
2. Write a Meta description that includes the keyword you want to rank for, your brand, and a call to action (phone number or whatever) and is 160 or fewer characters. Use the whole space.
3. Write an H1 tag that describes the article in the broadest possible terms and that does not duplicate the title tag.

Sample metatags for fake site allyourhair.com/thinning-hair/

Title: Thinning hair can be a real problem- you need a solution

Description: Read more about how to prevent, stop and reverse thinning hair. Expert advice, articles, blogs- and a forum community ready to assist.

H1: Thinning Hair

Important Note: Every pages’ content should link to at least 2 other pages on the site; preferably using an associated keyword. One of the links should be to a top-level navigation page or the home page, and the other should be to another page, no more than 3 links deep from the main navigation off the home page. Use whatever anchor text makes sense, if ‘click here’ is reasonable for the User, there’s no reason to try to shoehorn a keyword in that doesn’t make sense in a sentence. If there is a helpful external link that could be included, link out to another site- but make sure the link is a followed link, and that it opens in a new browser window.

Writing body content in a form of short paragraphs with heading names linking to internal category, subcategory, and product pages is another writing method that also provides SEO value since a page with content is better than a page without it.

Keyword density describes how often a keyword or phrase is used within the body of the page. For example, a keyword density of 5% means that a keyword is used an average of 5 times for every 100 words on the page. Naturally-written text about a topic tends to have a keyword density for a main topic keyword of approximately 2% to 4%. Stuffing keywords into the content to increase relevance is seen as “spam” and usually hurts rankings. Pages with keyword densities above 10% are almost always removed by Google before too long. Incorporate a keyword phrase into your content naturally, so the text flows.

A site like Cracked.com, for example, is very very well optimized for organic search, regardless of what you think of their content :)

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007


Yeah, it looks like they are doing everything Google says to do- even though there is nothing stopping them from making up reviews on their own page:

https://developers.google.com/structured-data/rich-snippets/reviews#reviews

Here's the key waffle point: When Google finds valid reviews or ratings markup, we may show a rich snippet that includes stars and other summary info from reviews or ratings.

So you could be doing everything right and Google just might decide that you're not a big enough brand to show star ratings for. Roto spends a poo poo ton on PPC and is a well known brand so they have earned some trust from Google.

Also, there is nothing stopping anyone from aggregating customer reviews that they get through whatever means they get them- phone surveys, questionnaires, emails- into their own site. It's very very hard for Google to prove that you didn't get those reviews, especially if you are well reviewed on mainstream sites also. It's a common reputation management technique, for one- you ask clients to submit positive reviews and then repurpose them however you want. There's nothing that says a review is a form on your site that a User types in and that you expose them all to Users fairly. Yelp sure as hell doesn't, for one.

boar guy fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Mar 14, 2016

TheReverend
Jun 21, 2005

Efexeye posted:

As always, feel free to send me a PM with more info.

Sending PM!

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

TheReverend posted:

Sending PM!

PM answered.

TheReverend
Jun 21, 2005

Thanks, there is hope for me yet!

Royal Jeans
May 12, 2012

TheReverend posted:


I've tried to fill my website with "lovely fast food hamburgers" and I'm nowhere on the organic listings. I have some adwords running that turn up for those searches but I'd really like to fix my organic problems.

Any ideas on what to do for organic?


Are you using a lot of similar terms people would look up as well? I've had moderate success by typing my original query "lovely fast food hamburgers" into Google & browsing through the related searches & finding relevant ways to add more content on those questions/concerns. You can also find some interesting questions/discussions on your topic in quora/forums that can inspire more articles, though it varies a lot on niche. I mean maybe there's hamburger forums out there that I'm not aware of.

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

His keywords were well represented on his site, but not in his metadata. Also, he's not doing as bad as he thinks he is ;)

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

Here's a really good analysis of the true costs of PPC:

http://www.wordstream.com/blog/ws/2016/02/29/google-adwords-industry-benchmarks

Why do I trust this survey, and not stuff like what Moz puts out? They source their data:

This report is based on a sample of 2,367 US-based WordStream client accounts in all verticals (representing $34.4 million in aggregate AdWords spend) who were advertising on Google AdWords’ Search and Display networks in Q2 2015. “Averages” are technically median figures to account for outliers. All currency values are posted in USD.

Golden Bee
Dec 24, 2009

I came here to chew bubblegum and quote 'They Live', and I'm... at an impasse.
Efexeye, Snatch, what's your email strategy?

We're doing a content push for a client, a few articles a week and an email omnibus to get on page traffic. The omnibus and the articles aren't THAT different (a little extra content if you read both). The client is a niche service company (targeting live-event broadcasters); is it worth pushing both on-site and original email writing? Or is it better to focus on other areas since people don't usually read both?

Efexeye posted:

What kind of idiot would buy a mattress over the internet, without laying on it and touching it first? S

You don't listen to a lot of podcasts, do you? :)

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

I like to put the first paragraph or two of the content in the email/newsletter itself, with a link to the site to read the rest. Helps to drive onsite traffic, and it's trackable through AWeber or Constant Contact- who opened, who clicked, who converted, all from the original email.

Golden Bee
Dec 24, 2009

I came here to chew bubblegum and quote 'They Live', and I'm... at an impasse.

Efexeye posted:

I like to put the first paragraph or two of the content in the email/newsletter itself, with a link to the site to read the rest. Helps to drive onsite traffic, and it's trackable through AWeber or Constant Contact- who opened, who clicked, who converted, all from the original email.

We found there was a 10% boost in clickthrough when we changed "More..." to "Read More!"

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007

Golden Bee posted:

We found there was a 10% boost in clickthrough when we changed "More..." to "Read More!"

You gotta reduce that friction to the conversion point. "read more" is a clearer call to action than "more" :)

Snatch Duster
Feb 20, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Efexeye posted:

I like to put the first paragraph or two of the content in the email/newsletter itself, with a link to the site to read the rest. Helps to drive onsite traffic, and it's trackable through AWeber or Constant Contact- who opened, who clicked, who converted, all from the original email.

I agree with this and that call to action improvement. Has your client considered Gmail Sponsored Updates or Customer Matching campaigns in adwords? We like run one or both types along with any email marketing campaigns that we do for clients.

Golden Bee
Dec 24, 2009

I came here to chew bubblegum and quote 'They Live', and I'm... at an impasse.
This client has around 14 potential hirerers in the US, so adwords aren't a fit.

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Snatch Duster
Feb 20, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Golden Bee posted:

This client has around 14 potential hirerers in the US, so adwords aren't a fit.

Yea that makes sense. Customer Matching campaigns require 1k email addresses before you can launch it and I think Gmail Sponsored Updates requires a budget of $5k.

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