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steinrokkan posted:lol, greeks proving evvery day that they deserve to die in a ditch 
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Mar 17, 2016 04:33
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steinrokkan you are much less chill than i remember you being
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Mar 17, 2016 04:33
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the focus with closing the balkan route is also stupid in a big way. if there's one thing refugee crises have taught us, it's that people can and will find new, less safe routes when the safer ones are closed down
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Mar 18, 2016 17:36
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GaussianCopula posted:I don't think you can argue that the number of refugees arriving is not dependent on the question of how expansive and how dangerous it is to get to Europe. You won't be able to reduce the number of arrivals to zero, but you can reduce it substantially. well i mean if you like innocent people dying i guess this is a good solution only the strongest, luckiest and most desperate will survive
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Mar 18, 2016 18:02
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Fox Cunning posted:Less people will come though, and it's pretty obvious that new routes will be closed as they appear considering that Fortress Europe is apparently the chosen path... There's a finite amount of easily accesible routes to Europe, while the will to stop them is a lot less finite. If the flow isn't stemmed there will likely be other solutions that considers human rights even less if what we've seen so far is any guide. It's not like Europe's going to be more welcoming in the near future either, looking at the political climate. Who's going to enforce human rights in Europe if Europe collectively decides not to honour them? the mediterranean route is going to get a lot more traffic, italy and spain are going to get swamped again. probably we're going to see people travelling by way of russia, which gives putin another card to play against his neighbours i guess refugees don't give much of a toss about "easily accessible", or they wouldn't risk their own lives and those of their children in dinky rubber boats over the sea. all one can do is increase the risk, which puts some people off, and kills others who were leaving anyway
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Mar 18, 2016 18:05
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which, say it with me, is morally indefensible because it means that we effectively murder people through our border policies oh, and those saharan people-smuggling terrorists are probably going to get a much-needed infusion of cash, which will no doubt be a huge boon for the region
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Mar 18, 2016 18:07
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Xoidanor posted:Aren't we already seeing more coming over Russia considering the recent diplomatic tassle between Russia and Norway? the arctic route between russia and norway was closed before it really got going. in the end, the (morally and legally dubious) solution had actually been proposed by russia, and all they had to do was agree to implement it - it was a lot of people by norwegian standards, but norway is a tiny country and "a lot of people" meant several thousand. now syrians going that way are being deported back to syria lol
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Mar 18, 2016 18:09
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all this, of course, is entirely ignoring the massive thornbush that is the question of considering asylum policy primarily as immigration policy rather than on its own terms, which uh
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Mar 18, 2016 18:13
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Chomskyan posted:Then I would like to see some examples of CH's take on other religions and why you feel they're at all comparable to the sweeping argument made in that editorial charlie hebdo's general and staunch hostility to religion in general is very well known one could argue that they're singling out islam as particularly connected to terrorism, but it's not as though they're implicitly pro-christian or something
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Apr 3, 2016 15:59
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Chomskyan posted:Sam Harris's general and staunch hostility to religion in general is also very well known. Incidentally he's also an Islamophobe. It's quite possible to be critical of religion in general but to hold particularly prejudiced views towards Islam. I expect that is the category of Islamophobia Charlie Hebdo falls into it is possible that things have changed since charb got murdered, but this at least did not use to be the case, c.f. http://www.lemonde.fr/actualite-medias/article/2015/04/15/le-livre-posthume-de-charb_4616005_3236.html
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Apr 3, 2016 16:08
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tbh CH does hold islam in open and cheerful contempt, so saying they're not "islamophobic" is perhaps not the best argument to push, but they at least used to be pro-laïcité rather than specifically anti-muslim, particularly that brand of anti-muslim as a cover for racism that is so popular among e.g. the Front National
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Apr 3, 2016 16:18
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they have specifically called out the FN for that poo poo previously, so it's not as though they're unaware of that phenomenon
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Apr 3, 2016 16:19
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Cat Mattress posted:Those who do not come from a war-torn country like Syria, Iraq, Libya, or Yemen are not considered to be refugees. lots of political refugees from east africa where i'm from you know, like, journalists, labour organisers &c who are persecuted by their government because they're idk communists or w/e
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Apr 18, 2016 00:32
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well, "lots", relatively speaking the point being, it's entirely plausible that some saudi republican or w/e could flee and have a valid reason to seek asylum in europe
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Apr 18, 2016 00:32
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Cat Mattress posted:Sure, but if they come as political refugees then they have to prove their claim that they face political persecution at home. yeah the ones i know generally have physical scars and a haunted look in their eyes to back up their case i guess i could see some case-manager arguing that they hung themselves up by meathooks or something though
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Apr 18, 2016 02:51
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steinrokkan posted:Amazingly Poland - Ukraine - Russian ended up as the triumvirate... Yet people believe it's the Swedes, not the Slavs who decide the Eurovision trneds. swedes make like half the songs
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May 15, 2016 01:19
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LemonDrizzle posted:99.8% counted in Austria and it's still 50-50. The Green/Independent candidate Van der Bellen won Vienna by 66%-33%; the populist right-wing candidate Hofer won everywhere else other than Vorarlberg. if it's that close i'd expect van der bellen to win. cities almost always report their results more slowly than rural areas also graz and salzburg also broke for the green, from what i've seen so it's not exclusively a vienna thing - it seems to be a fairly strong urban/rural separation
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May 22, 2016 18:04
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imo banning religious symbols in public in general is a separate issue from the banning of specific garments connected to specific religions but that's me
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Aug 13, 2016 01:10
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drilldo squirt posted:I'd like some examples bolshevik antitheism, jacobinism, spanish red terror
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Aug 13, 2016 01:30
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hell, british anti-catholicism is a big one as well
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Aug 13, 2016 01:31
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icantfindaname posted:That's not opposed to religion in general, just Catholic religion i fail to see the relevance of this post to mine
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Aug 13, 2016 01:38
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computer parts posted:Yeah, I can't think of any ethnic groups near Britain that are defined by Catholicism. are you suggesting that british anti-catholicism was born out of anti-irish racism
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Aug 13, 2016 01:40
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it certainly ended up having something to do with racism, but in the beginning the two were entirely incidental to the main purpose of making sure that the right individuals from the same general caste were in power in britain for other cases of non-racist religious repression, one may look at the massacre of the cathars, the hussites, various burnings of heretics, the great schism with attendant repression in islam &c religious repression for various purposes is much older than even the concept of "race", is my point
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Aug 13, 2016 01:43
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assuming that the two are inextricably linked is empirically, and laughably, wrong
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Aug 13, 2016 01:44
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icantfindaname posted:Racism is bad, and various non-racist totalitarian ideologies (like using the power of the state to try and eliminate religion), are also bad this implies a rather radical definition of totalitarianism
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Aug 13, 2016 01:51
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computer parts posted:By beginning, you mean the first generation or thereof. ok: at a certain point of time very close to Inception Day Of British Anti-Catholicism, british anti-catholicism had Nothing to do with race and was pure power-politics this, of course, is leaving out all the other examples of religious repression i mentioned which were either general or very specific and can only be connected to race in the most specious possible way, so even if i were to concede the point to you your apparent position would still be bizarre and wrong
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Aug 13, 2016 01:54
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computer parts posted:Those examples you mentioned died out, because they weren't racially influenced. this doesn't really follow, and does not seem to hold up to scrutiny see e.g. certain policies of the PRC targetting majority-Han religious communities icantfindaname posted:Not really, totalitarianism means authoritarianism plus ideological motivation. The state dictating to individuals what religious beliefs and practices than can do for ideological reasons is literally the definition of totalitarianism is germany banning nazi parties totalitarian in your opinion e. quote:Are you saying the state using its power to eliminate religion is a good or acceptable thing?
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Aug 13, 2016 02:03
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icantfindaname posted:You could argue that, yeah. I don't think that's worth caring about or anywhere near on the same level as banning Muslim dress, though ok then i'm honestly fine with a bit of totalitarianism tbh
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Aug 13, 2016 02:06
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i mean, at a certain point you get farcical results from a "non-totalitarian" approach where you cannot use state violence to do things because it would be enforcing ideological discipline on society, e.g. using the secret police to blow up a hate group which a small minority of the members have been using to organise violent crime
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Aug 13, 2016 02:09
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computer parts posted:Your implicit assumption is that ethnicities are rigid. i fail to see the relevance of this example to the general and well-known repression by chinese authorities of groups ranging from christian sects to the falun gong
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Aug 13, 2016 02:11
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icantfindaname posted:No, arresting people for violent, organized crime is not an ideological act. Unless you mean, like, arresting people who profess beliefs similar to unrelated individuals who have committed crimes and also profess similar beliefs. Which makes very little sense well in this hypothetical one is destroying the organisation they were using to organise and motivate their crimes, despite the majority of members not doing anything illegal and, indeed, the organisation itself never formally acknowledging such acts, though i grant you that it's not a terribly efficient hypothetical computer parts posted:The Hui are Han. Then they weren't. ok. this does nothing to support your position which is currently that all modern, ongoing religious repression is to some degree connected with racism
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Aug 13, 2016 02:17
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icantfindaname posted:This is something a normal legal system would have no trouble dealing with most legal systems have no trouble dealing with it, but it seems as though this would be totalitarian in your terms
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Aug 13, 2016 02:21
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my point being, literally every modern society seems to be totalitarian by your standards
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Aug 13, 2016 02:21
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icantfindaname posted:Religion, especially minority ones, very often acquire the characteristics of / turn into separate ethnicities. For example, the Hui in China. Probably also Jews in medieval Europe, although the question of how many were converts as opposed to a massive human migration is a giant political slapfight this, again, is not relevant to the discussion at hand
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Aug 13, 2016 02:23
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icantfindaname posted:No it wouldn't, because breaking up organized crime isn't considered an ideological act by anyone except you how is 'crime' defined i mean, hiding jews from the gas chambers was a crime under the nazi regime, i'd consider breaking up a jew-hiding group pretty ideological
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Aug 13, 2016 02:25
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i am also not certain how one can have authoritarianism without ideology of some sort backing it up, so it's difficult to see how any centralised authority is non-totalitarian berlin would be pretty horrified, i'm sure, at you equating non-entities like the various european autocrats with the likes of stalin
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Aug 13, 2016 02:29
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icantfindaname posted:You're the one who came with that lovely hypothetical, ask a lawyer. Defining murder or robbery as a crime is not ideological, defining having the wrong / a religion as a crime is why is this different
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Aug 13, 2016 02:30
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Nitrousoxide posted:Hey. People can be skumbag authoritarians about Muslim women's clothing without being a racist. And not being racist doesn't make approving of authoritarian bans on certain clothing not lovely. building on a previous line of reasoning, wearing full neo-nazi get-up and hanging around synagogues would be, at best, frowned upon in most societies and considered an implicit threat in some
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Aug 13, 2016 02:31
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without further comparison to religious headwear or what have you, but that as a principle is actually not as easy to defend as one might want
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Aug 13, 2016 02:32
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well i mean there's ideological judgements being made, but you seem to think that murder &c is somehow beyond ideology so i'm curious as to how you rationalise this
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Aug 13, 2016 02:34
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