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move to a jurisdiction where that is illegal
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Sep 14, 2020 21:38
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Inner Light posted:How about when the recruiter (either early in the process so before a phone screen, or fairly far along and after it) inevitably asks for your current salary. What is the thread consensus line on how to refuse that again? You tell them to go gently caress themselves. I’m not joking. I’ve straight up yelled at recruiters who’ve asked me that telling them that if they ask that or anything close to that again I’ll be hanging up. Anyone who pulls that poo poo is probably a scumbag that you don’t want to be working for anyways.
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Sep 14, 2020 21:50
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Inner Light posted:How about when the recruiter (either early in the process so before a phone screen, or fairly far along and after it) inevitably asks for your current salary. What is the thread consensus line on how to refuse that again? My current salary is confidential information and thinking back on my past few offer letters, they've all said the same or some other similar language Absolutely do not back down on that and always make them give you a range
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Sep 14, 2020 22:03
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You should actually feel free and encouraged to be rude to recruiters.
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Sep 14, 2020 22:07
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That's a little easier when you don't need a job. Edit: having said that, I've worked on the HR side with recruiters, and...yeah they pretty much suck across the board.
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Sep 14, 2020 22:15
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Lockback posted:Anchoring is a solution to the "First Offer" dilemma. So once someone throws out an offer, you're not anchoring anymore, you're just countering. I dunno if your working on different definition but this is the Harvard definition which seems pretty universal. And countering is fine and important, but its a different thing. The advice "Don't negotiate salary too early" is also generally good (iun that case you'd need to be real confident about the ranges available) but also not "Never say a number".
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Sep 14, 2020 22:16
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air- posted:Wasn't sure where else to put this - anyone negotiate their rent? Would love some tips/stories on how you did it. End result: Rent only going up 10 bucks but with 6 weeks free on the renewal, which means lower effective rent vs what I'm currently paying Even if it's not as good as a 8 weeks special, the savings beats moving and I'm fine with that 
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Sep 15, 2020 00:24
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air- posted:End result: Rent only going up 10 bucks but with 6 weeks free on the renewal, which means lower effective rent vs what I'm currently paying Grats on the win. A big portion of negotiating is knowing when you won. We love success stories in this thread and I'm sure everyone in here is happy for you. Good job!!!!
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Sep 15, 2020 00:29
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Dik Hz posted:I think you're being deliberately obtuse. The meat of my post was "Hiring decision makers are most likely already anchored on a number". You completely glossed over that. I don't see why name calling is needed but I'm working off the normal definition which is in terms of when you give an offer is an anchor. I guess I'll drop it since its gotten in the gutter.
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Sep 15, 2020 01:17
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Lockback posted:I don't see why name calling is needed but I'm working off the normal definition which is in terms of when you give an offer is an anchor. I guess I'll drop it since its gotten in the gutter. No, the normal definition reflects that the first number you hear in a certain context anchors your perception of future numbers in that context, and as has been explained to you repeatedly, the first number a recruiter has heard with respect to the position you are applying for is NOT the one you provide. The anchoring has already happened.
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Sep 15, 2020 01:20
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Lockback posted:I don't see why name calling is needed but I'm working off the normal definition which is in terms of when you give an offer is an anchor. I guess I'll drop it since its gotten in the gutter.
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Sep 15, 2020 02:07
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Lockback posted:I don't see why name calling is needed but I'm working off the normal definition which is in terms of when you give an offer is an anchor. I guess I'll drop it since its gotten in the gutter. Nobody’s calling you names they’re just describing your actions
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Sep 15, 2020 02:30
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Lockback posted:I don't see why name calling is needed but I'm working off the normal definition which is in terms of when you give an offer is an anchor. I guess I'll drop it since its gotten in the gutter. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Nobody’s calling you names they’re just describing your actions Also you have consistently been posting badly so you can try to continue to go BLA BLA ANCHORING GOOD NOT NAME NUMBER BAD without engaging with the multiple people who are addressing what you are actually saying and listening to you, despite your obstinate insistence on not reciprocating. And this is still not name calling. It is describing your poor behavior in a thread advising people who are systemically disarmed from acting in ways that promote their own best interests.
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Sep 17, 2020 14:02
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I got a random recruiter spam on LinkedIn for a job I'm well-qualified for but don't really want. I'm trying to think of a tactful way to say "I'd be great at this but I'd need a wheelbarrow full of money to quit my current job" just to see what happens
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Sep 17, 2020 17:28
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rt4 posted:I got a random recruiter spam on LinkedIn for a job I'm well-qualified for but don't really want. I'm trying to think of a tactful way to say "I'd be great at this but I'd need a wheelbarrow full of money to quit my current job" just to see what happens You can always ask if a salary range is available. If the job is in CA they have to tell you, I believe. There's no law against asking "Compensation would have to be very good. Could they hit $figgies?" They won't take it personally.
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Sep 17, 2020 17:34
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Thanks, that's way more tactful
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Sep 17, 2020 20:06
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Terrible* negotiator here. Just got an offer, and I must've lowballed myself so much the recruiter felt bad and submitted me for more. Rofl But I can at least (just barely) officially brag about 6 figgies. *I'm the guy 2 years ago who took a counteroffer at a place that underpaid me for years because my dad had just died. I did end up leaving 8 months after the promotion, btw.
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Sep 18, 2020 00:27
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A family member just got a job in china and as I learned, apparently companies don't just ask for your salary goal, they ask for bank statements to prove your current salary.
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Sep 18, 2020 01:04
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Were they that desperate to take it?
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Sep 18, 2020 02:03
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Barudak posted:A family member just got a job in china and as I learned, apparently companies don't just ask for your salary goal, they ask for bank statements to prove your current salary. I’ve had a company ask that once too. Either bank statement or a pay slip not older than 6 months. They said it was so they could make me a tailor made offer. Obviously I refused. Did take the job because the hiring manager hosed up negotiating. He had 2 offers (initial and final) and accidentily started with the final offer.
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Sep 18, 2020 13:18
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If you tell a company you have a competing offer, and they ask which company its from, is it worth it to tell them? I have an incoming offer from a well known company and likely an offer from a start up thats pre-IPO (and seems to make high offers to start).
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Sep 18, 2020 17:32
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seiferguy posted:If you tell a company you have a competing offer, and they ask which company its from, is it worth it to tell them? I have an incoming offer from a well known company and likely an offer from a start up thats pre-IPO (and seems to make high offers to start). Weird question. Why should they need validation from another company to extend you an offer? What's to stop you from just saying "oh yeah it's Google/Apple/Microsoft"? Depends on the exact circumstances, but I'd probably be vague. "It's one of the multinationals". If it's a FAANG just say that. If they force the issue that'd be a red flag to me, because it's really none of their business and they shouldn't be looking to other companies to make hiring decisions. I'd take a careful thought about what you have to gain/lose by divulging that information. I can't speak to how valuable that is cause I have no idea what your industry is or how tightly competitive info is held.
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Sep 18, 2020 17:48
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Not a Children posted:Weird question. Why should they need validation from another company to extend you an offer? What's to stop you from just saying "oh yeah it's Google/Apple/Microsoft"? Yeah I was trying to figure out why the pre-IPO company would want to know and it probably comes down to: 1. They don't have any compensation strategy so they need to gauge and see what I'm getting from an established company that isn't too hard to get an idea of what my salary might be from blind / glassdoor. 2. If I said I'm getting an offer from a FAANG-esque company, they know they need to up their offer to entice me to come there. Ultimately I'd rather go with the established company which should be giving me an offer next week, but the initial number they gave seems low but said I could negotiate next week. Hence why I wanted a competing offer to go with next week.
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Sep 18, 2020 17:58
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Big tech cos like FAANG and friends have pretty standardized leveling and pay bands for new hires and tend to not negotiate much unless there is a competing offer on the table (or you are super-senior and highly desired). Without one, you don't have a ton of leverage to negotiate a whole lot, perhaps some extra signing bonus. But their pay bands (plus stock) are typically so much higher than average that it's difficult to have a truly competing offer, except from another FAANG-like company. There are a lot of cases where they will deliver an offer package higher than stated in the interview process because they won't go out of their way to super lowball an individual that doesn't ask for enough. The real thing that fucks you long term is getting mis-leveled as an incoming hire, because it will take you years to get that promo internally rather than as a new hire. Guinness fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Sep 18, 2020 |
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Sep 18, 2020 18:07
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seiferguy posted:If you tell a company you have a competing offer, and they ask which company its from, is it worth it to tell them? No. "That's not relevant to our current discussion."
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Sep 18, 2020 18:08
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Anti-Hero posted:Alright, I take those thoughts into consideration and send something out tomorrow. I have to give them a response by COB. Update for my situation: I submitted a counter offer and received a nice "thanks for the note back, we'll give you reply tomorrow" email and had radio silence for close to two weeks. I received a reply today after COB with a polite, but firm "no" to my requests. So that's a bummer.
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Sep 19, 2020 03:30
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Guinness posted:The real thing that fucks you long term is getting mis-leveled as an incoming hire, because it will take you years to get that promo internally rather than as a new hire. This is the case for lots of enterprises. It’s extremely worthwile to get information about this during an interview. Ask how many roles in your team are toed to specific levels and if what requirements need to be met to move up a level. A financial institution I once worked for deliberately tried to put new hires one level below their actual skills and then made it virtually impossible to move into a higher level role. Luckily I was aware of this and told them I’d not join unless I got a role for the level I wanted. All my coworkers didn’t know this when being hired and all got placed 1-2 levels below me. Pretty nasty behaviour but almost everyone accepted the situation due to the pay being above market rate for most of them.
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Sep 19, 2020 22:52
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Tibalt posted:Never say a number. JFC. This is sensible, but I'm curious about something. To get my current job, I dealt with a 3rd party recruiter. Most of the recruiters I dealt with suck, but this guy was sharp. For him, he said he wanted a number so we knew we weren't miles apart and he could negotiate adequately on my (and his own, obv) behalf. He didn't insist on knowing what I made currently, just what I would probably accept. I knew enough to give him something high and we actually got it, so in this case I have no regrets. I think this was after an in-person interviewing and knowing I did pretty well in it. Is this an exception to 'never say a number' or should I have resisted harder? Do you still make them come in with a number? On rental chat, how are you guys determining the rental prices in your area? The prices listed on my building have not gone down. Also, I remember hearing about something; you can sometimes extend your lease for a longer period as a way to try and leverage getting a lower rent. So, like, instead one year at X, it's two years at X less some amount. It's basically 'locking in' the new rent for a longer period, saving money over time and avoiding future increases. Is that something that actually happens, or is that just some boomer poo poo that doesn't exist anymore? If it matters, I live in MA and rent from a small-ish corporation (maybe 100-150 units total?).
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Sep 20, 2020 17:42
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They weren't negotiating on your behalf, they were making sure they could get you in for the number they were already given and not wasting their own time. You don't know what the range for the position was so no you should not have given a number. That being said, if you're happy with what you got then hey you succeeded.
Parallelwoody fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Sep 20, 2020 |
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Sep 20, 2020 18:45
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Yeah, I’d say it is strongly dependent on to what degree this statement of yours is actually true vs. an assumption:Magnetic North posted:I knew enough to give him something high and we actually got it, so in this case I have no regrets.
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Sep 20, 2020 18:58
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Magnetic North posted:On rental chat, how are you guys determining the rental prices in your area? The prices listed on my building have not gone down. I used a combo of Zillow, Craigslist, depending on the city I've heard of Streeteasy as well I've done something similar when extending the lease term - took a 15 month lease renewal in exchange for keeping rent the same, plus that arrangement ended up great for me in the long run since my renewal is now every November... I am so sick of moving in the summer
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Sep 20, 2020 19:16
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Magnetic North posted:This is sensible, but I'm curious about something. To get my current job, I dealt with a 3rd party recruiter. Most of the recruiters I dealt with suck, but this guy was sharp. For him, he said he wanted a number so we knew we weren't miles apart and he could negotiate adequately on my (and his own, obv) behalf. He didn't insist on knowing what I made currently, just what I would probably accept. I knew enough to give him something high and we actually got it, so in this case I have no regrets. I think this was after an in-person interviewing and knowing I did pretty well in it. Is this an exception to 'never say a number' or should I have resisted harder? Do you still make them come in with a number? The biggest problem with giving a number is all the stuff you don't know. I'd probably work for $0 if it came with a company vehicle, a generous housing subsidy, Cadillac health coverage for me and my family, a full 401(k) contribution every year, a walkable commute, a good boss, meaningful work, and just enough salary to pay the income tax on all that. Obviously that's hyperbole, but benefits packages can swing by $10's of thousands between offers.
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Sep 21, 2020 22:16
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what about food??
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Sep 21, 2020 22:33
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Or the rest of his housing that isn't subsidized. Plus nothing left over for Funko Pops--what if there's an exclusive event? You'll miss out on Pops!
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Sep 22, 2020 04:10
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Magnetic North posted:This is sensible, but I'm curious about something. To get my current job, I dealt with a 3rd party recruiter. Most of the recruiters I dealt with suck, but this guy was sharp. For him, he said he wanted a number so we knew we weren't miles apart and he could negotiate adequately on my (and his own, obv) behalf. He didn't insist on knowing what I made currently, just what I would probably accept. I knew enough to give him something high and we actually got it, so in this case I have no regrets. I think this was after an in-person interviewing and knowing I did pretty well in it. Is this an exception to 'never say a number' or should I have resisted harder? Do you still make them come in with a number? As everyone else has said, you didn't get one over on your new employer. Possible outcomes are that they wanted to pay what you wanted to make, and everything lined up, or, they wanted to pay more than you wanted to make, and when you said a number first they knew they just scored a good deal. The recruiter's motivation is not to get you a good salary. Even with them getting a commission equal to 20% of your new salary, negotiating on your behalf to get you 15% more doesn't make them as much money as placing 30% more people by keeping the candidate pool full of inexpensive hires. They want transaction velocity with the minimal amount of work for the recruiter and the employer. That means filtering to inexpensive hires. "I want a number so I know we're not far apart" is not sharp. It's what every recruiter uses to disarm people who've heard you shouldn't name a number but will name one with a little cajoling. You got a salary that you feel happy about. If you want to say you're well compensated then you should be able to respond to this post by filling in the following numbers: I am making ___% of what people are paid, on average, to do the same job I am doing in my area. I am making ___% of what people are paid, on average, in my position at my employer. If I had asked for ___% of what I am now making, I would not have gotten it. If you don't know these numbers that isn't a matter of some moral failing on your part, but not being able to fill them in means that you giving a number first was not advantageous to your negotiation. If it wasn't advantageous, then you likely could have gotten more by getting the recruiter to disclose what the employer was looking to pay. That would ALSO have provided the opportunity to make sure that you aren't out of alignment on compensation expectations.
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Sep 22, 2020 14:30
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Yeah, it's important to understand that recruiters operate under the same moral hazard that realtors working under commission do, but even more so: you only have one house to sell and the difference between accepting the $400,000 bid and haggling it up/continuing to shop around to get $450,000 is very substantial, but the realtors have a hundred houses to sell and their potential benefit is only $3,000 so it's not worth it to them to invest a lot of time and energy into getting that. They make more money long run by getting the house bought/sold ASAP and moving on to the next. Same concept with recruiters, but even worse, because realtors have to maintain at least the legally satisfactory pretense of working for the sellers.
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Sep 22, 2020 15:29
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:If you want to say you're well compensated Maybe this is weird but personally, but I don't care to say I am well compensated (except to check my privilege and know that I am fortunate to be doing better than a lot of people). Dunno why. Maybe some puritanical money shame or something? I just can't imagine saying "I'm well compensated" in a sentence for whatever reason. I am going to try and keep this stuff in mind for the next negotiations, whenever they happen to be. I guess I'll just say, "Nope, make them tell you what they want to pay me and we'll see." If they don't want to bother, oh well.
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Sep 22, 2020 15:49
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Magnetic North posted:Maybe this is weird but personally, but I don't care to say I am well compensated (except to check my privilege and know that I am fortunate to be doing better than a lot of people). Dunno why. Maybe some puritanical money shame or something? I just can't imagine saying "I'm well compensated" in a sentence for whatever reason. Isn't one of the premises of this thread to know when you've won? I'm a poet who earns way above what I would have ever expected, and it's on the high end for my chosen field (editorial quality assurance). Don't get me wrong, I do work hard and earn it, but I feel like the loving dog who caught the car sometimes compared to my poetry cohorts.
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Sep 22, 2020 16:05
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Magnetic North posted:Maybe this is weird but personally, but I don't care to say I am well compensated (except to check my privilege and know that I am fortunate to be doing better than a lot of people). Dunno why. Maybe some puritanical money shame or something? I just can't imagine saying "I'm well compensated" in a sentence for whatever reason. Betazoid posted:Isn't one of the premises of this thread to know when you've won? Yes, you need to know when you've won, and only you can answer "when you've won" for you. Comparison is the thief of joy. There is a real value in your life to finding a sense of satisfaction in what you have, understanding your privilege, and fixing your mind with gratitude. All of these are super useful tools for leading a happier and more peaceful life. None of them are relevant to negotiating. So I am not trying to tell Magnetic North that they failed. I don't want to piss in someone's cornflakes, and I don't want to spoil someone else's victory. I think this thread is useless if we are silent when someone's skill at inner peace exceeds their skill at negotiating, particularly if they recount missteps and misunderstandings about negotiating a salary for a new job. In that regard "know when you've won" is not just important in the context of the negotiating skillset, but important with understanding that negotiation is a toolbox that provides means, and it is up to each individual who attempts to wield that toolbox to create and pursue their own ends. Playing a hand of poker badly, winning that hand anyway, and cashing out with an amount that you are pleased with is not a failure.
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Sep 22, 2020 16:15
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Betazoid posted:Isn't one of the premises of this thread to know when you've won? Yeah, I'm the opposite. I will expend money to not have to go through the energy required to save it. After all, once your basic needs are met, it's there to make your life easier. I appreciate all the advice. It has not made me any less happy in the results of my decision, even if I played it wrong. Still, for important things like job negotiations, I'll try and break that path of least resistance habit.
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Sep 22, 2020 22:01
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