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If it's a real small company they may like that but otherwise whether or not the employee has health coverage doesn't come out of the hiring director's department budget but salary does so they won't really care.
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Feb 17, 2020 03:47
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Does no Vacation Policy mean "Unlimited"? Unlimited can be bad or good but it's a policy. "No Policy" is a red flag but maybe they are communicating that poorly. Anyway, you can still negotiate and your academic experience in research still has value so you can still use that to get an experience bump.
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Mar 3, 2020 21:11
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I'd ask them for a Minimum PTO Policy of 15-20 days. If they're the latter they should probably understand why you want it. If they're the former they'll balk and you know what they're trying to achieve. Most places that go to unlimited vacation don't have policies to pay out vacation when you leave/are laid off and requiring them to make a special exception just for you is asking for an entire change to their employee handbook and tracking system or else they are opening themselves up to significant liability not just from that employee but all others. If the policy is unlimited PTO, that's the policy. Asking for a special policy for you (as a entry-level applicant no less) is not a very good idea and is going to be pretty distracting. Like I said there are good and bad experiences with Unlimited PTO but fighting against it to the recruiter won't really get you anywhere. If that's a deal-breaker, just say so and move on,
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Mar 4, 2020 03:25
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You should absolutely take into account CoL. Keep in mind switching jobs introduces quite a bit of risk and you should be eyeballing a higher salary to account for that risk. I think sometimes this thread focuses too much on "winning" a negotiation and not enough on making sure people are in a situation salary/job wise that is the best for them. Before moving to a higher CoL area, you should sit down and figure out what an equivalent salary would be based on what you're making now and what a reasonable raise bump would be to account for the move/risk of a new job/risk of a new city/responsibilities of a new job. That should be your floor (that you probably shouldn't share, but should be your internal number).
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Mar 4, 2020 14:36
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I would have a conversation about role responsibilities first before you talk about anything else. Once you do that you can probably have a conversation about salary but that is pretty downstream. I'm not as fast on the "Look for new job" trigger but you shouldn't definitely be talking to your management about this.
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Mar 12, 2020 17:17
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I think some of the advice of "Walk away if they don't approach salary conversations the way you want" is going to be very quickly outdated here, hopefully we get back to a candidate market but a lot of people are on unemployment and probably can't afford to tell recruiters to shove it. I agree on chatting with a recruiter is not the right time to anchor a salary number, but you can get around that a bunch of ways. "Market Rate" or "I'm looking for (20% above market rate) but fit, benefits and work type will adjust that accordingly". That anchors you above your number but shouldn't shut the door for qualified candidates. I also think the general advice of asking companies to throw out the first number is not universal. A lot of people will struggle when a company anchors a number first, especially in the heat of a job-change, which is super stressful. You should have your target number in mind before you apply and decide your limits before you talk to anyone, when the stress is lower. Some people can cowboy on the spot but most people struggle with that.
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Mar 31, 2020 14:38
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Eric the Mauve posted:Unfortunately this thread is going to be out-of-scope for job hunting for a while, since if you're unemployed you have no BATNA, thus are not negotiating. For the foreseeable future the question for job seekers will not be "how do I get more money from my prospective employer?" but "how do I get a job offer at all?" That you're going to jump on the first offer you get and gratefully accept a rock bottom low salary will be a given. The Resume/Interview Thread is going to be a lot more relevant to an unemployed job seeker than this one. There are absolutely things you can do to increase offers even with low/no BATNA, this thread is way too focused on that. When I'm hiring and I get a counter I consider things like what I think will get someone to stick around for a while, what is fair, and what I can sell up the chain (since 5-10k in salary doesn't really move the needle for my team one way or another). What I don't do is sit down with some probability of them having another offer or giving some cut-throat "Take it or Leave it". Most of the time negotiations are pretty chill and in good faith all around. I really dislike how this thread focuses on "Winning" a negotiation over getting people in a good place long-term. While the chances of getting a gigantic offer are low, I think people can still get good advice on how to approach recruiters to make sure your at least getting market, how to get an extra 10% or so out of an offer (which adds up over a career) and such. There's still value here.
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Apr 2, 2020 20:39
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Dik Hz posted:There are absolutely things you can do without a BATNA, but those things aren't negotiating. Those are bluffing, begging, and lying. Given that this is the negotiation thread, I can understand why we focus on negotiation in here. "(Leaving a 50k job for a new job you really want): Hey, I think we're a good fit, thank you for for 80k job offer. Given the market, I'd like to counter 85k. (will still secretly take the 80k offer if they say no)" "Company XYZ wants to know how much I am looking for. I'd take this job for a number that is probably well under market because my BATNA sucks and this job looks fun/what I want to do/has benefits I need, but I'd like some advice on what to do to get as close to my market rate as I can." Those situations ARE still negotiating and something people should still look to do (when applicable). They are not begging. People need to learn those skills, especially now. Dwight Eisenhower posted:
That immediately after your post basic job negotiation that lots of people will have to do was derided as "Begging, bluffing and lying" and NOT negotiation because it wasn't using a very specific process.
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Apr 4, 2020 15:00
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If you are an exempt employee, temporary pay cuts are usually not legal, though they can just let you go instead. With new unemployment wages people should do the math. If you are not exempt, well tough poo poo. In happy news we are getting our bonuses next week and they even are well above target for the second year in a row. We've got a soft hiring freeze right now which kinda sucks because I JUST moved a guy to full time engineering last week and now I can't replace him. Not terrible since we're still decently staffed but I pushed to get it done as a favor and now it's one of those "no good deeds" things.
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Apr 10, 2020 05:11
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Congrats! Yeah knowing market rate and business rate is a big part of things. Don't feel bad that your jobs market was higher than you realized. You now know that your probably in the lower end, which can help you around next promotion or job change. Nice bump considering everything that's going on!
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Apr 12, 2020 06:14
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Denver isn't that ridiculous. You can live as a single guy in an entry-level job at $65k and be fine. Buying property in Denver is ridiculous but the rest isn't too bad. It's worse than the Midwest but not as bad as NYC or San Fran or anything.Dik Hz posted:Discretionary bonuses are valued at $0. Raises in the future are valued at $0, even if you can get it in writing. If market is $55k-$70k, ask for $75k and decide what you're willing to take and accept if you get it. Reasonable employers aren't going to rescind offers for $60k if someone asks for $75k. They'll just say $60k, take it or leave it. This is the best advice you'll get. They already threw out the number, hit back over what they'd probably do and you'll likely end up in the middle. Nothing you are asking is out of line. asur posted:Do not throw out a number without knowing the equity and bonus structure or they'll interpret your number such that it benefits them. They already tossed out a number. You can't really play it dumb at this point or they absolutely will just put everything in at the $60k they already told him. If you tell someone $60k and they still go through the interview process they aren't going to suddenly top their own number. Edit: ^^Crossed streams, disregard Lockback fucked around with this message at 15:00 on May 5, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 14:31
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Linkedin recruiting is probably more or less the same hit rate as email.
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May 8, 2020 17:39
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Keystoned posted:Sounds good, thanks. It does seem pretty targeted and specific. Really depends, but probably reach out to the company first. Recruiters get ~ 20% of your first year salary as commission so going to the company makes your more attractive and potentially gives you more room to negotiate salary since you don't come with a 20% headwind. However, recruiters can help get you through stupid hoops companies put up. And some will help you get top dollar to increase their commission, though a bunch will also undersell to guarantee a pick-up even if it costs them (with the idea of 10 low balls are worth more than 9 good salaries and 1 pass). So I'd probably say reach out to the company directly first and see if you get any response. Don't respond to the recruiter because if you do they may have "dibs".
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May 9, 2020 19:42
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9 out of 10 was just me making up numbers. If a recruiter does anything then he's doing the math on maximizing comission. It'll all depend on the company and the relationships they have. Some recruiters are really good, I work with one that has done a stellar job finding fits because he took the time to learn what we need and has done things like waive contract fees on early conversions because he knows their's value in the long term by having that relationship. I've worked with others who were clearly just trying to place as many bodies as they can. The latter aren't going to spend time getting you that extra 10% because they can spend that time and energy landing more bodies, and dumb companies think it's a positive when contractors find cheap talent (Hint: It's usually not). I think 3rd party recruiters sorta get a bad rap in general since they fill a pretty important niche, but the horror stories of the bad ones definitely are true. This is true of just about any commission based job I guess.
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May 9, 2020 22:33
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Lateral moves like that frequently don't have a pay bump associated with them, sometimes that's even enforced at the HR level so you don't end up getting in bidding wars. Basically, you need to answer the question "Why is the same person doing the same duties worth more on one team than the other?", which is tough to answer. Do you have a good relationship with the Sleep hiring manager? You can always have a quick In general if all things are equal I'd probably say its usually a half-step back to take a lateral position like that. You lose some seniority on the team and if the vent people are irritated by the move you've just gotten a bad reputation with management that is closely related. That all depends on the people involved and company culture, of course. Hooplah posted:The whole point of negotiations is to get more money (or expected value). You can absolutely negotiate for things other than money. QoL changes can be worth far more to people than dollars and cents. Lockback fucked around with this message at 18:24 on May 15, 2020 |
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May 15, 2020 18:20
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Well done!
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May 16, 2020 02:17
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Or lie to them.
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May 24, 2020 16:46
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Find your number, add a buffer to anchor at that high point, and go from there. They are showing their hand in that they have no idea what you do or what you're worth. There is good and bad to that, but playing hardball here doesn't really help all that much. Care more about where the final number ends up instead of trying to bid them up. I have definitely worked in places where certain positions had pretty fixed rates, usually for various reasons. Plus it sounds like they might be trying to rope you into a 1099, so make sure to clarify that before you pitch a number.
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May 26, 2020 03:58
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It depends on lot of things. The multiply by two accounts for things like you won't get PTO, your hours will be less dependable, you are more likely to go through stretches of no job vs not being a 1099, not just the additional taxes and benefit costs. For some 1099 jobs you might have more stability or more options and thus should be lower, in others you may have more costs or longer dry stretches and should be higher. 2x is a good baseline. If you are just starting out or doing more entry level in an office I'd set expectations that it'd probably be a little less, but that's not a bad ballpark to start in. If you work full time for a year, even after benefits, taxes, and a unpaid couple of vacation weeks you'd pocket more money on a 1099 2x salary. The extra is for the risk. Also, do you need this job? You sound like you have very little BATNA. Is it easier for you to find something else or for them to find someone else? You can still negotiate but if you have weak BATNA and they say they need a number from you or they'll move on you might need a new strategy if you need this job.
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May 26, 2020 13:23
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Asking questions as you go is a good tip. People like to talk, and will like you if you give them chances to talk. I get asked that "What hesitations do you have about hiring me" all the time and I have an automatic go-to to deflect. It's not a bad question I guess, but also it won't work. For the negotiation part, are you saying when you get an offer to stall and wait and not respond? That is not good advice.
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Jun 23, 2020 15:10
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Agreed he is underpaid unless those 11 reports are minimum-wage-type jobs. For retention Indeed says they can go up to 25% but I usually see them higher than that. It depends on the length of time, but usually 33%-50% for 6mon-1 year is pretty common in the software industry, but that was accounting for high demand.
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Jun 30, 2020 17:04
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I know this thread strongly mashes the "Get them to give a number first" button, but there is a lot of research into anchoring high too, and in your case that is what you'd want to do, I feel. Figure out what your number is to move, and give them a number 25% or so above it. I think it'd be wise of you to figure out what that number is now so you don't get caught up in the negotiation and end up taking a job under what you really want, if you're not used to negotiating you can end up playing yourself pretty easily. Like Eric the Mauve said, you are in a great place and personally I'd need a pretty big reason to leave a position you are in. I don't think coming in high is a big risk either.
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Jul 30, 2020 15:11
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Guinness posted:In your situation, where you already have a good job that you like and a decent history of paying out, I would absolutely count that bonus toward your current compensation when doing the comparison. ehhhhhhh There are absolutely companies that have a track record of bonuses and then pull the rug. Comparing companies that give bonuses to those that don't is tough, but I'd still value the money in compensation over the money in bonus.
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Jul 30, 2020 18:17
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Good-Natured Filth posted:As an update, I anchored high (50% raise), and they came back extremely low (7% raise) as their upper limit. After I declined, the recruiter indignantly told me that if I want that high of a salary, I need to start looking outside of our area. I reminded him that I'm not looking - they were the ones to reach out to me, and wished him the best of luck in his search. Lol, well nice experience and this kind of thing helps re-enforce your market assumptions and its a good experience overall. Now you know you aren't overpaid, since they were willing to go over you salary! (Even if that's not enough to jump)
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Aug 1, 2020 01:29
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Companies don't give you raises because they want to replace you. A conversation about responsibilities and titles shouldn't mark you as a flight risk, but you'll probably be able to gauge their willingness. Keep in mind, are you skilled enough to be a ux designer anywhere, or just with this website? If it's the latter they are going to be hesitant paying out for something they could potentially get a more experienced person for, and your BATNA is weak of you can only get lower paying jobs. I still think the conversation is a good idea, but I also think it's a good idea to look at what the job market is and where you'd fit. You may even find a move is better regardless!
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Aug 6, 2020 13:59
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At the very least follow up phone conversations with email. Recruiters may have a strong preference to chat over the phone.
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Aug 12, 2020 18:24
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Parallelwoody posted:So I have one offer involving a cross country move, and I believe a second company is going to offer soon as I went through a second panel interview and got a follow up call regarding salary requirements. I pushed that back by saying I would need to review their total benefit package, which is going to get sent over to me. If they send that without a salary number, any tips on making them blink first for naming a number or do I just anchor high? I honestly think anchoring is a better bet when you have an offer in hand like that. I think the thread title is wrong and works best when you don't have a good insight into salary ranges and market rate, but even then you open yourself into a company anchoring you low. You know what your alternative is (factoring in the move value, positive or negative) so you should have a pretty good idea what number would make you want this new job. Do some glassdoor snooping to find some market rates you should be able to figure out a good number that would be above what a high-end offer would be and go from there. If they are not giving a number its unlikely they will reject you for being too high if your within a few standard deviations of their range. Have a number in mind on the offset so you don't get so caught up in the negotiation that you end up taking something lower than you actually want just because you think it's a win. Alternatively, it's dumb to turn them down and take a worse job just because they wouldn't budge after coming in above your target anyway.
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Aug 12, 2020 18:40
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Parallelwoody posted:I am a little reticent to anchor due to the wide range that the position title is listed for in salary. I've seen JDs have a $16 per hour listing and it goes up to around 80k per year depending on area, and I don't want to come in too high and scare them off. Also, it was a bit of a weird situation as the panel interview consisted of 4 different department heads and it seems like I would be considered for each department. Speaking of, with fully remote positions, how are you all factoring in CoL into your negotiations/thought process? Emphasis on where you live, where the company is located, or just whichever is higher? Do you know the bands in general? I've never rejected someone because they requested a salary in band even if I didn't take it. Are you honestly just looking at a series of jobs that go from 33k to 80k a year? Woof. Your BATNA sucks here then. Myself I'd be more focused on "Let's get a good job instead of worrying about scaring people off" but that's a calculus you need to do. Most places would love to hire you under your market wage. For remote CoL, generally its where you live more than where the company is located, but if the company is located in a high CoL area you can use that to goose up your salary a bit. But ultimately, either the place has no policy or if they do they will set your band based on where you live. This changes if you are expected to do a bunch of traveling or if you are expected to commute out to an office on a semi-regular basis.
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Aug 12, 2020 20:56
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BallerBallerDillz posted:Thanks for the advice everyone. This is what I went with: This is good, you probably won't get a "LETS DO IT NOW" since usually a counter like this with a signing bonus takes a bit of time to get through. The platitudes are a nice touch, it helps make the HR types feel better.
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Aug 13, 2020 00:30
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ing my mail. I've never done any negotiation of a job offer before and am very nervous, even though I know if they try to punish somebody for negotiating I don't want to work there anyway.
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This is a case where I'd really want them to name a number, but I've managed these types of titles before and they really do range. For NYC I'd say the median is probably in the 110-120k range PLUS bonus, so I'd say trying to anchor at or above a 150k total comp package. This depends on lots and lots of stuff though. 1. How close to software engineering/dev ops is this role? If its a Support Role where you are doing work right alongside the code I'd go on the higher side. If it's more call center jockeying, even though that job sucks its easier to find people in that role so it'd be on the lower side. 2. How much after-hours do you have to do? If you are 24x7 with no overseas office that answer is going to be "lots". If you don't get comp time, your salary should be higher. 3. You mentioned bridge, do you have SWE experience or a Comp Sci degree or anything? If so, that feeds into #1 and those roles are valuable.
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Aug 20, 2020 18:46
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Ok, so it's mostly call center so I might expect a little lower, and keep in mind an anchor is something that you probably won't get so don't go too low. It is still NYC though so I think realistically you should be looking for 100k + ~15% bonus, so $115k. Let's toss 25% on top of that to give them room and you're at $150k. If you think based on your BATNA and what this company is doing (I am working on sorta incomplete info here) would put your salary closer to $80k+ 15% bonus then you're more like 90k so the anchor there should be 110k. So I think that's the range you should be looking to anchor depending on what you know about the company and the job. Again, given NYC I don't think they will eject you for a $150k TOTAL package ask.
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Aug 20, 2020 19:41
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Re: contracting, I am by no means an expert but based on the numbers you have $100 an hour seems on the higher end, especially if you're an employee (which means payroll taxes, unemployment, etc), it's more reasonable if you're a 1099. How much of the 15 hours a week will be billable? What are you making with them now?
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Aug 21, 2020 05:37
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dk2m posted:so i’m currently getting poached from another group. i work in corporate but this will be under a P&L for a division. Its going to depend on your company. You should start doing some digging and researching to try and find out what the pay range is in the new role. Are you getting a new title? Is it the same pay grade or above? These things will all matter. Ultimately, you'd want to have a well-researched idea on what the band is and make sure you know what you're talking about. The biggest hurdle on these kinda of things is actually just STARTING a negotiation, most of the time you're just told what your salary should be. My advice would be to let the new manager know ASAP you expect a conversation about new salary, but that advice might depend a lot on the company/culture. Being on the other side of this, its a bit different than hiring. Negotiation is fine but I'd sorta expect it have less back and forth than a new hire. Kind of like offer, counter, final cadence.
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Aug 27, 2020 16:33
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Start calling the new thing the title you think it should be but otherwise not much. You could not take it.
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Aug 30, 2020 03:50
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Kingnothing posted:Thanks again for this help. Had the interview (initial screen) and they did ask about my expected salary. Tried to weasel out of it and say I’d like to know totally comp first and they pushed back asking for cash comp so I went with a range somewhere around $110k which seemed to go over well. Yeah, that usually means total comp. So salary + bonus. It always gets squishy here as you should value salary more than bonus, but by how much depends on the company. 110k is a good number if you're trying to land around a 80k-90k salary plus bonus. If they try to promise huge bonuses don't let that replace a workable salary. White Chocolate posted:I’m going to get the results of my interview with the company tomorrow or this week. I already have a good union job so I cannot go back an argue with my project manager about that. It pays well so I don’t have to leave unless I love the offer I’m getting. So whatever you say is your high anchor, and you can definitely go back and forth but they should never go below their first number and you shouldn't go over yours. If this is a new job multiple back and forths is perfectly fine as long as your comfortable walking away. One thing that I think trips some people up is they get too focused on "winning" a negotiation and end up taking a job with too low of a salary just because they "won" by getting a substantial increase from the start or by walking away from an otherwise good offer because they couldn't squeeze more out of the company. If you foresee a lowball offer coming, find a salary yourself that you think is fair and that you'd be willing to jump and set that as your floor. Add 15-25% to that as a fair counter (this depends on a lot of things, if you think their pay band is strict and the industry is not one to negotiate starting a little lower can be better. In the tech industry, 25% is a better choice). That's a good starting point and if you aren't getting to your floor number just walk. There's always other jobs, especially if you have a good BATNA. Lockback fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Aug 31, 2020 |
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Aug 31, 2020 18:09
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my just say yes #
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Anti-Hero posted:I'm just beginning what I feel could be either a very short, or very long, negotiating process for a job within an organization I'm currently employed. This isn't super uncommon from what I've heard of Union shops like this (Surprise, Union negotiated benefits are better). I think you have the right idea on the response. "This position seems like a step down in pay and benefits vs where I am at. I am happy to continue the succession plan but doing so in my current role. I would however be open to move for $$$." They might not be blowing smoke about what they are allowed to hire at and may or may not want to go to war about getting you above that band. But you'll have to give them a number in response now. Something like that might not close the door if they hold fast and you truly believe this small step down might be the right step up.
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Sep 4, 2020 14:35
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They are way more likely to just stick to their guns vs yank away the job, especially if you're looking for something in the 20% range. I'd say it's 60/40 they tell you that their offer is the last/best but its probably worth it.
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Sep 4, 2020 16:34
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Anti-Hero posted:Do you, or anyone else for that matter, have any thoughts on what a typical professional salary spread would be in a vacuum? I've been told on the DL what the mid-point is, and the offer I received is ~7% above the midpoint. I'm trying to make a reasonable assumption on the spread to back calculate what the high might be to assist in my negotiation. Parallelwoody posted:In a vacuum, SHRM guidance is 40% for hourly, 50% for salaried, 60% for executive based on their compensation philosophy instruction. ^^That, though I think in the situation your describing I'd expect it'd be tighter since this role sounds like its first-line management. Additionally, with a range there is usually a mark where they say "You cannot come into this role above this line", usually 120% of midpoint.So if they say they are already 7% above, they probably still have room but not a ton. For comparison, new person coming into a role is usually supposed to be somewhere between 80-90% of midpoint.
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Sep 4, 2020 20:56
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Parallelwoody posted:That might not be so much a negotiable point and more an accommodation under the ADA. Get a diagnosis first though. ADA requires "Reasonable" accommodation, and if your team works a set hours working different hours regularly probably falls outside that, and for a lot of places that's undue hardship. Occasional use is one thing but this probably goes above it (NAL but someone who has been continually surprised at how little ADA actually needs to apply). Quackles- Are you in the US or EU/somewhere else? If in the US most tech places don't do employment contracts or at least not ones where you'd define working hours (most contracts are unenforceable Non-competes the the like) unless you are a hot shot, top-end dev. Most support orgs do shifts and 2nd shift would be pretty close, is this something where a 12-8 schedule full time would fit? Once your at a place for a while you are way more likely to get more fluid shifts. That's not just support, there's 2nd shift dev roles and the like too. Back when I managed teams that did more shift work I didn't mind at all people who would kinda float, but that was the case after they worked for a while in a role.
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Sep 5, 2020 15:19
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You don't need to justify. I want this money so I can take a vacation to Haiti and laugh at orphans is just as justifiable as anything else. I don't mind the "I want to stay here for a long time" sentiment though, in my experience HR eats that poo poo up. In the Tech Industry that may be more true because we jump around all the time.
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Sep 8, 2020 05:07
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