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Eric the Mauve posted:You'd be spending almost a third of your before-tax income on rent, and we haven't even talked about parking, gas for what will presumably be a lengthy commute, and the general cost of stuff in Denver. Yikes. Hmm sounds like I should take a pass unless they go substantially higher then. Ok thanks for the advice.
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May 5, 2020 02:25
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You can easily live on 65k as a single person in Denver. Get a roommate and you can live even better. Where in the city is the job? You can easily bike all year. Transit is pretty decent but kind of expensive (work may provide an eco pass). The median household income in Denver is only $68k. I have never lived in Tennessee but Denver is a pretty cool place to live. No relocation kind of sucks but you will have to decide if it is right for you. Only 3 years into your HR career, 65k seems pretty good.
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May 5, 2020 02:56
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leper khan posted:So the HR person let out that I was the best candidate and she would be surprised if I didn't get an offer. Based on her tone, either she's really good at using that as a negotiation tactic, or she's earnestly trying to get ahead of paperwork. Do not throw out a number without knowing the equity and bonus structure or they'll interpret your number such that it benefits them.
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May 5, 2020 06:12
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Denver isn't that ridiculous. You can live as a single guy in an entry-level job at $65k and be fine. Buying property in Denver is ridiculous but the rest isn't too bad. It's worse than the Midwest but not as bad as NYC or San Fran or anything.Dik Hz posted:Discretionary bonuses are valued at $0. Raises in the future are valued at $0, even if you can get it in writing. If market is $55k-$70k, ask for $75k and decide what you're willing to take and accept if you get it. Reasonable employers aren't going to rescind offers for $60k if someone asks for $75k. They'll just say $60k, take it or leave it. This is the best advice you'll get. They already threw out the number, hit back over what they'd probably do and you'll likely end up in the middle. Nothing you are asking is out of line. asur posted:Do not throw out a number without knowing the equity and bonus structure or they'll interpret your number such that it benefits them. They already tossed out a number. You can't really play it dumb at this point or they absolutely will just put everything in at the $60k they already told him. If you tell someone $60k and they still go through the interview process they aren't going to suddenly top their own number. Edit: ^^Crossed streams, disregard Lockback fucked around with this message at 15:00 on May 5, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 14:31
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Lockback posted:They already tossed out a number. You can't really play it dumb at this point or they absolutely will just put everything in at the $60k they already told him. If you tell someone $60k and they still go through the interview process they aren't going to suddenly top their own number. That was a response to the 190k question the earlier guy asked. Also you can live on 65k anywhere.
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May 5, 2020 14:34
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Jordan7hm posted:Also you can live on 65k anywhere. Sure you can. But if someone from a LCOL area who is making nearly that doesn't know just how different life looks on $65k in a HCOL area they are in for quite a shock as how fundamentally their day to day life will change, much of it for the worse. Motronic fucked around with this message at 14:51 on May 5, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 14:41
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You can definitely live on $65k in Denver, but just be aware that it will require more planning and effort and tradeoffs than living on $65k anywhere in Tennessee.
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May 5, 2020 14:42
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:You can definitely live on $65k in Denver, but just be aware that it will require more planning and effort and tradeoffs than living on $65k anywhere in Tennessee.
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May 5, 2020 16:23
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How seriously should i take linkedin recruiting messages? I dont get a ton but a recent one actually seems pretty good and targeted directly at me (references very specific skills). I was able to find the recruiters website and job posting and it looks legit, plus the rate they have posted is a 65% raise. Id have to move and pretty much 0% chance id take it, but wondering if its worth the time just for interview experience plus.
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May 8, 2020 16:20
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I got my latest job at a major consulting firm off of a LinkedIn recruiting message. It was an internal recruiter though. At the same time I got a message about a job with Accenture, which ended up going nowhere.l So it depends. A conversation doesn’t cost you very much.
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May 8, 2020 16:35
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My general approach is to read the message and see what they say. If they are not VERY specific about my skills and how they apply to the position I just ignore it (sometimes I respond sarcastically). I will get people who send me stuff for roles I haven't done in over 3 years. It is like come on man.
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May 8, 2020 16:35
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Yeah my last job was for one of the big four and it was an internal recruiter reaching out to me out of the blue.
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May 8, 2020 16:37
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Linkedin recruiting is probably more or less the same hit rate as email.
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May 8, 2020 17:39
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Got my current job from an internal recruiter messaging me on LinkedIn. Important bit being that it was an internal recruiter, not a third-party headhunter. Also got my previous job from an old colleague reconnecting out of the blue on LinkedIn, but that’s a bit different. As cringey as LinkedIn can be, it’s one of the best resources for jobs IMO. Signal to noise is not great, but it’s better than most other platforms I think. If you’re interested have a call with them to feel it out more, there’s no harm in it. Could work out great!
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May 8, 2020 18:42
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If you're a fit and interested, respond. Maybe it's targeted maybe youre the .001% their dumb spamming tactics has found.
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May 8, 2020 19:26
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Xguard86 posted:If you're a fit and interested, respond. Maybe it's targeted maybe youre the .001% their dumb spamming tactics has found.
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May 9, 2020 03:44
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Sounds good, thanks. It does seem pretty targeted and specific. I was able to track down the company and position its for. Would it be better to respond through the recruiter or apply directly? The recruiter is a third party firm. I havent responded to him yet.
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May 9, 2020 16:38
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Keystoned posted:Sounds good, thanks. It does seem pretty targeted and specific. Really depends, but probably reach out to the company first. Recruiters get ~ 20% of your first year salary as commission so going to the company makes your more attractive and potentially gives you more room to negotiate salary since you don't come with a 20% headwind. However, recruiters can help get you through stupid hoops companies put up. And some will help you get top dollar to increase their commission, though a bunch will also undersell to guarantee a pick-up even if it costs them (with the idea of 10 low balls are worth more than 9 good salaries and 1 pass). So I'd probably say reach out to the company directly first and see if you get any response. Don't respond to the recruiter because if you do they may have "dibs".
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May 9, 2020 19:42
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Thanks for the advice, ill go that route. Makes sense in the recruiter side but youd think a good one would do the math and see they can make more by selling quality high paid people vs churning out low $s. In your example as long as they place at an 11% higher rate on average they break even. Anything above that they make more even with 1 less win.
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May 9, 2020 20:20
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9 out of 10 was just me making up numbers. If a recruiter does anything then he's doing the math on maximizing comission. It'll all depend on the company and the relationships they have. Some recruiters are really good, I work with one that has done a stellar job finding fits because he took the time to learn what we need and has done things like waive contract fees on early conversions because he knows their's value in the long term by having that relationship. I've worked with others who were clearly just trying to place as many bodies as they can. The latter aren't going to spend time getting you that extra 10% because they can spend that time and energy landing more bodies, and dumb companies think it's a positive when contractors find cheap talent (Hint: It's usually not). I think 3rd party recruiters sorta get a bad rap in general since they fill a pretty important niche, but the horror stories of the bad ones definitely are true. This is true of just about any commission based job I guess.
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May 9, 2020 22:33
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Most recruiters are not very good at what they do (just like most people in most fields), and they make more money just churning cheap warm bodies than they can by trying to be good at it.
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May 9, 2020 22:35
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12 month expiration on commissions definitely gives recruiters incentive to place you at companies you’ll want to leave within a year.
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May 10, 2020 05:23
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This is kind of a weird question, but definitely in line with this thread: I work as a Sr. Tech Writer for a company that makes sleep and respiratory therapy products (CPAPs, ventilators, associated accessories, etc.). I started as a contractor working on the sleep therapy side for about a year- then a full time position opened up in the ventilator department. I applied and was hired without even needing to interview and negotiated a pay bump that basically gave me the same take-home cash as I got while I was a contractor, but with full benefits and holidays on top. I've been working on the ventilator side of things for just over a year now. I like my team a lot and unless they're really great at lying, my team also likes me a lot. One of the tech writers for the sleep team just accepted a promotion to a project manager role and now everyone on the sleep team is asking me to apply to be her backfill (another person called me just a few minutes ago to convince me). I also like that team quite a bit and I like working with those products a liiiiiittle bit more than the products I work on now, though I'm still quite happy where I am. If I moved back to the sleep side, it'd be a totally lateral move (exact same job duties, just different products). My question is: how much of a raise do you think I can squeeze out of this? And I'm not asking this from an "I *need* more money" standpoint- currently I basically make more money than I ever thought I'd make in my life living where I live. However, if the opportunity is there, I might as well get a little pay bump. I currently make about 88k and we get a bonus targeting 10% each year (the bonus isn't negotiable- they're set up like pay bands). What's a reasonable amount to ask for given the circumstances? Before anyone mentions it: no, I'm not trying to go to another company at this point- I work in what literally might be the most job-secure field possible during the COVID-19 pandemic.
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May 15, 2020 17:16
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The whole point of negotiations is to get more money (or expected value). You're doing your company's job for them of giving them reasons to not increase your compensation- if "need" was the only factor in getting better pay, no one would make 100k/yr. You should consider that if you like your current role, laterally switching to a different dept is pure risk with no upside unless you get a bump, and you should leverage that. In your position I'd be happy to end up with a 10-20% increase, but that's ONLY if you like the new team. Taking less than 10% would make me wonder why I'm bothering.
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May 15, 2020 18:18
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Lateral moves like that frequently don't have a pay bump associated with them, sometimes that's even enforced at the HR level so you don't end up getting in bidding wars. Basically, you need to answer the question "Why is the same person doing the same duties worth more on one team than the other?", which is tough to answer. Do you have a good relationship with the Sleep hiring manager? You can always have a quick In general if all things are equal I'd probably say its usually a half-step back to take a lateral position like that. You lose some seniority on the team and if the vent people are irritated by the move you've just gotten a bad reputation with management that is closely related. That all depends on the people involved and company culture, of course. Hooplah posted:The whole point of negotiations is to get more money (or expected value). You can absolutely negotiate for things other than money. QoL changes can be worth far more to people than dollars and cents. Lockback fucked around with this message at 18:24 on May 15, 2020 |
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May 15, 2020 18:20
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hence the (or expected value)
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May 15, 2020 18:30
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Lockback posted:You can absolutely negotiate for things other than money. QoL changes can be worth far more to people than dollars and cents. That's *kind of* what I meant by expected value. Mainly my point was if this poster wasn't actually interested in materially increasing their position (whether it be monetarily or QOL) they're not really negotiating. It just kind of struck me they were interested in moving for its own sake with the potential of some extra bonus cash on the side. I was pushing back on that as being risky, which is basically what you're saying. I think I just phrased my post in an annoying way.
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May 15, 2020 18:35
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Hooplah posted:It just kind of struck me they were interested in moving for its own sake with the potential of some extra bonus cash on the side. I was pushing back on that as being risky, which is basically what you're saying. Yeah you're kinda right here. The benefits for me are: - I like working with the sleep therapy products a little more (I use a CPAP so I understand them a lot more, plus the work on that side is a little less chaotic since there's less crazy hospital stuff involved). - There aren't many tech writers here that have experience in both departments. That could be an advantage for me down the line. - I'll be the tech writer in charge of our newest CPAP model that's coming out within the next year or so. I'm currently the tech writer for our newest ventilator that just came out a few months ago. Being involved with both of those could also be an advantage for me down the line. - I might be able to get a tiny pay bump. The biggest risk is that there's a new manager for the Sleep department that just started around a month ago, so I don't know her very well. I'm not worried about the rest of the team though- they have all individually contacted me over the past 3 days to try to get me to come back, so I know I'm well-liked there. Guess I secretly just wanted a pros/cons list for this and you certainly helped me out there. I realize that this is kind of past the "negotiation" discussion at this point, so if this is too off topic I can drop it so I don't derail the thread.
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May 15, 2020 18:49
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as an outsider looking in, the putative benefits you list are not particularly valuable. how do you think those benefits could actually create value for you in the future? if you can't clearly articulate that, i suggest that they may not be as beneficial as you think.
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May 15, 2020 18:55
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Lockback posted:In general if all things are equal I'd probably say its usually a half-step back to take a lateral position like that. You lose some seniority on the team and if the vent people are irritated by the move you've just gotten a bad reputation with management that is closely related. That all depends on the people involved and company culture, of course.. This is possible but I have found at larger organizations laterals can improve your overall standing in the entire organization. If you want to move up in some places that can be valuable. It will depend on the company though.
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May 15, 2020 19:38
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spwrozek posted:This is possible but I have found at larger organizations laterals can improve your overall standing in the entire organization. If you want to move up in some places that can be valuable. It will depend on the company though. I think this is true primarily if you take on a new role somewhere significantly different in your organization, like from sales to operations or something like that. Technical writer product A to technical product writer B doesn't seem super compelling from that standpoint.
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May 15, 2020 19:54
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I think it really depends on the company culture how it'd get interpreted. But in most places I've worked lateral moves between teams is generally viewed at worst with neutrality and can often be a good thing. Folks in my company move around somewhat regularly, but management encourages people trying to find the team and work area that makes them happiest. Titles and roles are org-level so switching teams is't moving management structures all that much. If switching teams within your company is closer to changing jobs entirely, then I guess a lateral might not be so worth it.
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May 15, 2020 19:56
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Re: the value of lateral moves - since we all have pretty different ideas about how to value them that they are probably not too valuable a priori, and the original poster should look closely at what the other benefits will be.
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May 15, 2020 19:59
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I think this is true primarily if you take on a new role somewhere significantly different in your organization, like from sales to operations or something like that. Technical writer product A to technical product writer B doesn't seem super compelling from that standpoint. Plus we're talking moving back to an old team. This isn't opening new vistas of experience..
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May 15, 2020 20:00
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This does happen regularly and with no bad blood- I've witnessed it multiple times. Agree that the benefits could be extremely minor, if any for me, but there has recently been a new job category created that's sort of a "tech writer project manager" role that's a big bump up in salary and is up one bonus pay band. This could potentially set me up for moving into that role in the future, although that is absolutely in no way a guaranteed thing. Anyway, thanks everyone. Gave me some good stuff to consider here!
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May 15, 2020 20:03
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Re: the value of lateral moves - since we all have pretty different ideas about how to value them that they are probably not too valuable a priori, and the original poster should look closely at what the other benefits will be. Agreed. I should have been more clear that I was talking in general and not to the OP specifically. It will depend on the role, the company, the leadership, etc.
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May 15, 2020 20:26
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I’ll say bluntly what Lockback and KYOON are trying to say politely: OP already decided he wants to make the move, he posted in this thread asking how he can try and get a raise out of it too. The answer is, he almost certainly can’t.
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May 15, 2020 21:28
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I mainly lurk here and am friends with someone who is a bit more versed in negotiation than I, and figured I could post my success story! Background: Junior software dev in fintech, Chicago. Doing generally fine, underpaid but not terribly so. Biding my time to a promotion so I could jump ship for more money. Pandemic happens, they cut salaries across the board. I go from 75 to 70k. Start to look immediately. Event: I start the interview process after a referral from a friend, and eventually get to the offer state. I have been prepping and literally writing scripts for each potential path, with numbers for each one. Have my line in the sand of what is too low to accept. I know I'm not in the strongest negotiating position but I also can keep my current job without being in trouble. They ask for my number, I say that I am sure they will offer fair compensation based on the position, and that I'd be willing to discuss it when they get to the actual offer. They come back with 95k, 29k rsu (vesting over 3 years). This was literally the top of my expectations, but at the top of my script that I had in front of me, it said : DO NOT REACT AND DO NOT ACCEPT, ASK FOR AT LEAST 10% MORE. So I did that and the first time ever in my life, I negotiated. I asked for 10% more on the base, which was around 105. They came back a day later with a counter, 100k base and 43k in rsus. For that, I said yes. It was a really powerful experience and I'm gonna be making so dang much more, and way more than I had hoped for in my plans. Thank you negotiation thread for helping give me a framework  Old - New: Salary: 70k - 100k Bonus: 7.5% - 10% RSUs: 0 - 43k
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May 16, 2020 00:53
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hell yeah brother
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May 16, 2020 01:19
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:hell yeah
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May 16, 2020 01:19
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