JiveHonky posted:Do you think it is a good thing? It honestly did nothing to deter me from behaving badly and i think it only served to give the Vice Principal a rock hard boner and spank bank material. The overwhelming majority of studies/evidence say corporal punishment (yes, even light spanking) has the opposite of the intended effect and 99.99% of the time you a) teach the kid to not get caught, b) teach the kid that force is an acceptable method to get others to comply, and c) they later won't remember what they were being punished for they'll just remember you hitting them building anger/resentment/sadbrains. Queue tons of posts going 'I was spanked as a I kid and it never harmed me and by god I'll spank my kids and THIS is what is wrong with AMERICA today!!!' e: oh also, good job you loving hicks beating up on disabled kids
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Jun 20, 2016 20:12
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... destroy all humans?
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Jun 20, 2016 21:31
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Black kids and the disabled, apparently.
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Jun 20, 2016 21:40
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That all sounds extremely sexual and strange.
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Jun 20, 2016 22:06
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Ein cooler Typ posted:There's nothing sexual about it I don't know why so many hosed up goons immediately jump to that quote:Ours was more elaborate, an actual old school electric chair that you were strapped into with the seat part missing so you would get paddled while the chair shocks you. ????
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Jun 20, 2016 22:11
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^^^ except negative reinforcement basically doesn't work at all to train anything  client posted:this teacher in high school used to twist my ear whenever i talked out of turn in class. she had big titties and it was hot as hell go on
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Jun 20, 2016 22:25
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ClamdestineBoyster posted:I don't see how people get away with beating kids. It's essentially aggravated assault and battery with a weapon and in a lot of states with stand your ground laws children could legally kill people dishing out the punishment. Schools are legally your guardian while you're there which lets them get away with a lot of stuff they otherwise wouldn't be able to.
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Jun 20, 2016 22:36
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Kiryen posted:What do you think happens when you get arrested? Lotta 5-10 year olds getting arrested during their developmental years? Huh. spacetoaster posted:Isn't that why we have cops, army people, guards, etc? We're talking about school children. Maybe if we didn't teach them that beating people who do not do what you want is acceptable we wouldn't have so much crime and selfish assholery going on when they grow up? I guess it is easier to just hit them into submission instead of teaching them why they shouldn't be doing what they are doing though. Roylicious fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Jun 21, 2016 |
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Jun 21, 2016 17:13
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spacetoaster posted:lol, you sound like my hippie/liberal/democrat/etc dad. He used to spout that crap in public and then was a raging maniac at home. Okay lol? Beating kids is good because your dad said it is bad but he was a nutter; brilliant argument, barrister.
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Jun 21, 2016 19:25
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spacetoaster posted:Thanks. So you quoted me and said 'you sound just like my nutso dad' but you weren't trying to say you disagree? Because what I'm saying is 'corporal punishment is ineffective at best and at worst causes bad things.'
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Jun 21, 2016 20:49
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spacetoaster posted:But I don't think you're THAT against using force against stuff. Now children, yeah ok. But you, on this very forums, were bragging about writing bot programs to spam communications on websites you don't like. Well this thread is about corporal punishment in schools so yeah we're talking about kids. Obv force is fine sometimes I'm not a bleeding heart liberal just because I don't agree with the resident right wing nutsos. I'm just talking about in the context of raising kids or training animals, negative reinforcement has the opposite of the intended effect 99% of the time even if it is light negative reinforcement. That's not that controversial really. And that anime I had was a drawing someone did for me I liked it 
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Jun 21, 2016 21:06
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Someone else drew it for me based on a photo of mine.spacetoaster posted:As to your claim that negative reinforcement causes the opposite effect 99% of the time? Source? http://www.jstor.org/stable/1127099?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents posted:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000578940580111X posted:A matching law reinforcement model of individual differences in social aggression was developed and tested. Ten hours of interaction were observed in each of ten aggressive and ten nonaggressive sons with their mothers. Consistent with the matching law, the relative probability of maternal termination of conflict (negative reinforcement) contingent on sons' tactics in dyadic conflict during an earlier time period was significantly correlated with the relative probability of the sons' choice of those tactics during a later time period. Comparable matching relationships were found between maternal choice of conflict tactics and sons' negative reinforcement of their mothers' tactics. Significant between-group differences were found in the relative probability with which mothers and sons negatively reinforced each other's aggressive conflict tactics. http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx posted:“It’s a very controversial area even though the research is extremely telling and very clear and consistent about the negative effects on children,” says Sandra Graham-Bermann, PhD, a psychology professor and principal investigator for the Child Violence and Trauma Laboratory at the University of Michigan. “People get frustrated and hit their kids. Maybe they don’t see there are other options.” https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201309/research-spanking-it-s-bad-all-kids posted:Nevertheless, some studies have been done. In one set of analyses with young children in the laboratory, time outs worked just as well as spanking for (immediate) subsequent compliance on 30 tasks assigned by the mother. Long-term compliance is decreased after spanking (Gershoff, 2002; Gershoff & Grogan-Kaylor, 2013). Idk there's really just tons of data showing that negative reinforcement doesn't teach the kid anything other than don't get caught while causing all kinds of other psychological harm. Animal training is the same way 95% of the time. Negative reinforcement just doesn't work. Roylicious fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jun 21, 2016 |
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Jun 21, 2016 22:14
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spacetoaster posted:So the spartans had it all wrong. Makes you think. See that's fine though I'm not trying to be like 'negative reinforcement is anything that makes them mad/sad/whatever.' The stuff I linked mentioned that time outs are fine for example. It's just when people have to use pain/fear/violence as a tool to enforce their will because they can't figure out how to teach their kids what to do otherwise that's when it gets bad. Like 'do X or else, doesn't matter WHY just do it or I'll hit you.'
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Jun 21, 2016 22:23
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Kiryen posted:The fact is, the properly constituted authority CAN use force to make people comply. There may be other problems with spanking, but kids learning that is not one of them. Uh of course it's an issue dude. A 12 year old doesn't understand 'properly constituted authority' they're just going to understand 'person is not doing what I want, I will hit/bully them until they do.' Ignore all the poo poo I just linked talking about how corporal punishment doesn't teach anything and encourages aggressiveness and noncompliance though because 'my daddy spanked me and I'm ok!' Like I just don't get it all the science says it has 0 benefit and all kinds of negatives idk how anyone could seriously be pro corporal punishment unless they just like beating kids or are deliberately ignorant. Roylicious fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Jun 22, 2016 |
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Jun 22, 2016 16:45
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Solice Kirsk posted:Of course negative reinforcement works. Maybe not as well as positive reinforcement, haven't read up on any studies, but it certainly works. It's why when you burn your hand on a stove you don't keep touching it. Touching fire teaches you that fire hurts therefore corporal punishment is valid. lol
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Jun 22, 2016 17:28
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satanic splash-back posted:oh wow i'm so excited to read another loving thread where you purposefully misunderstand and misrepresent other ideas so you can shout about something stupid so someone else can shout stupid back at you, its so loving interesting. Bro I'm so excited to have goons ignore the preponderance of evidence so they can go 'what about this one edge case that isn't really what you're talking about but KINDA applies' and use that to justify keeping their dumbass world views intact. Like I get asked to cite my evidence and I do and then I'm literally just met with 'well I burned my hand on a stove and then I didn't do that again so even though I didn't read anything and didn't do any research I feel like this qualifies me to know about the finer points of operant conditioning.' Sorry you want to hit kids I guess.
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Jun 22, 2016 17:36
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And if you really want to get into stupid goon pedantry: no one touches a stove just to touch a stove. Kids get burned trying to reach for cookies/cakes/whatever. All they learn is better ways to steal what they want. I got burned on the cookie tray while reaching for cookies once, all I learned was 'be more careful' and I still stole a cookie. No one has burned themselves on a stove and went 'well I guess I better not nick food I want then.'
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Jun 22, 2016 17:38
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satanic splash-back posted:I'd tell you to suck my balls but I'm sure you'll somehow misunderstand that too. Why don't you explain what your point here is exactly? Is it, 'despite your citations negative reinforcement does actually work,' or is it 'hitting kids does work' or what? e: in before the personal insult
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Jun 22, 2016 17:42
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Solice Kirsk posted:You do get I was just saying that negative reinforcement is a thing and it does work to some extant right? Okay and I am telling you that everyone from respected behavioral psychologists to child developmental experts say that is not true. It works sometimes for training animals which is why I qualified my statement earlier with the '95%.' Falun Bong Refugee posted:His point is you're a pathetic sack of poo poo. It's not really hard. I bet my tummy is way flatter than yours is.
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Jun 22, 2016 17:45
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Solice Kirsk posted:Ah, I see. You're just talking about teaching kids and not an "in general" sort of thing. We all good. Out of curiosity, do you have any links to the papers those behavioral psychologists? I'm kind of curious of how they tested their hypothesis and accounted for other punishments outside of corporal. Also, how they interpreted their data and compared it. Yeah I meant more specifically in the context of parents/teachers interacting with kids. Obviously yeah you're right, if you do X and it hurts then your brain goes 'hey don't do that again' but aside from that basic physiological reaction you're not learning a whole lot. That's why corporal punishment results in short term compliance but less regard for rules/others and more aggression in the long term. Anyway gonna just link you to this post as my phone browser sucks: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3780625&userid=185036#post461292991 The links/addresses are in the 'quote=' bit. I didn't really want to link to Psychology Today but the article itself links to studies and stuff you can check out like Berlin et al., 2009; Gershoff et al., 2012. Roylicious fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Jun 22, 2016 |
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Jun 22, 2016 18:12
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Don't be mad because you live in the South... Just leave. The world is yours.
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Jun 22, 2016 18:20
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Dirk Squarejaw posted:So when you hear "disabled kid paddled at school", teachers aren't flipping Stephen Hawking Jr's wheelchair over and beating his rear end with a drilled paddle for eating glue. It's probably some kid who doesn't read well that beat some nerd up on the playground because he watched his dad beat the poo poo out of his mom the night before after she drank the last of the Dark Eyes and couldn't drive him to his temporary job and his 49cc DUIped had a flat because their pitbull chewed through the tire while the father slept on the couch after shooting up. This post is called Squidbillies
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Jun 22, 2016 18:27
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