Lutha Mahtin posted:

Just as the devil is disorderly and jumbles things together, so your writings and head are equally disordered and mixed up, so that it is exceedingly annoying to read and difficult to remember what you write, OP.

(source)

Tias posted:

I wholeheartedly agree. Being syncretic means finding out your personal truth, doctrinal impossibilities be damned. This was never a problem for us pagans, but I can imagine it must be an absolute shitshow if you start from dogmatic liturgigal christianity.

Mo Tzu posted:

Since these are mutually exclusive it is possible to believe both, because both religions solve mutually exclusive problems

HEY GAL posted:

the dude's making fun of a left winger because the real cool rad poo poo is being right wing, i would bet it's about welfare

StashAugustine posted:

I once went to church during the first half of the super bowl and there were literally a dozen people in there

it was the broncos/seahawks one so tbh im glad I missed most of it

Blurred posted:

Is there any information on what kind of religious beliefs ordinary peasant folks had during the Medieval period?

My understanding of the first few hundred years of Christianity (prior to Constantine anyway) is that churches were small and intimate affairs, where converts came to the faith voluntarily and would have been in direct contact with religious teachers within the community, so we can therefore assume that they would have had a decent grasp of the relevant theology. After the medieval period, with the invention of the printing press and wider literacy, we can again assume that it was possible for the average peasant to be well informed on at least the fundamentals of Catholic dogma. But what about the intermediating period? Without books or literacy, with masses performed in a foreign tongue, and without the idea of voluntary religious association (if your king was a Catholic, that meant you were too) just what kind of knowledge could the average peasant have been expected to have about Catholic teachings? Would the average peasant have even set foot in a church, much less have been able to communicate directly with his / her parish priest about any questions they may have had?

I've read a few books about the medieval period generally, and about Christianity / the Church in the medieval period specifically, and they always seem to gloss over this part. It seems obligatory to mention that the Church was always facing in uphill battle in suppressing pagan superstitions during this period, but that's about it. Is there any information at all about the role that Christianity played in the lives of ordinary people during this period?

Thirteen Orphans posted:

My old chaplain HATES when people say Aquinas was super heavy. He's convinced it's some kind of anti-Catholic rumor that stuck.

System Metternich posted:

So, I'm a member of my parish's schola now and will sing chants during the first Rorate Mass this year

poo poo, singing Gregorian chants is way different from what I'm used to, I love it!

Lutha Mahtin posted:

whoa whoa whoa

Cythereal posted:

If I decided I didn't believe in any form of Christianity whatsoever, I'd be a deist rather than an atheist. Much more intellectually appealing to me.

Or more to the point, if I nominally converted to Catholicism or Orthodoxy for a girl, I'd probably still think like an Evangelical Protestant. Can't shake a life growing up in that environment so easily.

SirPhoebos posted:

Question to the Catholics (or any Christianity historian): How did the Catholic Church get so powerful during the Middle Ages? (by which I mean, say, 800's to the end of the 4th Crusade)

The Phlegmatist posted:

Question for the Catholics:

Can a member of the laity give someone a Trinitarian baptism and have it be valid even if it's illicit?

The Phlegmatist posted:

Thanks for the responses.

I asked because I got into an argument with some Reformed people online who said that only ordained ministers can baptize; the Great Commission ("Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit") was given only to the apostles, and therefore only those with apostolic authority (i.e., ordained ministers) can actually perform valid baptisms.

Which surprised the hell out of me because that's some hardcore clericalism right there.

Powered Descent posted:

I actually looked this one up some years ago as research for a science fiction short story I was writing. (Short version of the setup: an inebriated computer technician performs an emergency baptism of an artificial intelligence, by saying the required words and dripping some holy water over its computer chips. This computer thus decides to take on Catholic doctrine as new programming instructions, and some years later it arrives in a confessional to unburden itself of a mortal sin that it calculates it may have committed.)

The result of my research was that yes, emergency baptism is at least a thing that exists, but the question of its validity would be about number sixty-three on the list of things that the Church would need to decide on in this wacko sci-fi scenario, so I just handwaved it away as being fine.

HEY GAL posted:

correction: after him modern music all sucks until the dude who wrote woyczech (19-teens) and arvo part

Ceciltron posted:

For all of Mozart's Dies Irae's weight and intensity, Verdi's Dies Irae really showcases the sheer madness and terror that the day of wrath holds for the Earth. It's operatic, over the top, and perfect at doing what it does.

Thirteen Orphans posted:

I was thinking it might be fun to do a Christianity Thread Secret Santa for Christmas. Unfortunately, the very first thing we'd have to do is decide when Christmas is and that's going to be difficult.

The Phlegmatist posted:

How many novenas must I pray before I get access to the secret database of Protestants hidden in the Vatican?

But seriously the rosary is cool and good and it's an excellent practice for private devotion. I've been enjoying it. The Mysteries aren't written in stone, correct? So I can choose other Biblical events to visualize during the decades like the building of the second temple?

Apocron posted:

If you want some meditative fodder then I recommend "Spiritual Exercises" by St Ignatius of Loyola.

System Metternich posted:

And finally, and most surprising to me, is that we don't "simply" meditate on the mysteries as you apparently do; we also insert them into the Hail Mary, e.g. like so:

SirPhoebos posted:

Okay, this is kind of a deep question (and I suspect differs by denomination): was Christ's crucifixion pre-determined?

The Phlegmatist posted:

In one hand I have the blue pill and it's labeled Thomism, and in the other I have the red pill and it's labeled Calvinism. The question is...how deep do you want to go?

Summa IIIa q46 a1 posted:

I answer that, As the Philosopher teaches, there are several acceptations of the word "necessary." In one way it means anything which of its nature cannot be otherwise; and in this way it is evident that it was not necessary either on the part of God or on the part of man for Christ to suffer. In another sense a thing may be necessary from some cause quite apart from itself; and should this be either an efficient or a moving cause then it brings about the necessity of compulsion; as, for instance, when a man cannot get away owing to the violence of someone else holding him. But if the external factor which induces necessity be an end, then it will be said to be necessary from presupposing such end--namely, when some particular end cannot exist at all, or not conveniently, except such end be presupposed. It was not necessary, then, for Christ to suffer from necessity of compulsion, either on God's part, who ruled that Christ should suffer, or on Christ's own part, who suffered voluntarily. Yet it was necessary from necessity of the end proposed; and this can be accepted in three ways. First of all, on our part, who have been delivered by His Passion, according to John (3:14): "The Son of man must be lifted up, that whosoever believeth in Him may not perish, but may have life everlasting." Secondly, on Christ's part, who merited the glory of being exalted, through the lowliness of His Passion: and to this must be referred Luke 24:26: "Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and so to enter into His glory?" Thirdly, on God's part, whose determination regarding the Passion of Christ, foretold in the Scriptures and prefigured in the observances of the Old Testament, had to be fulfilled. And this is what St. Luke says (22:22): "The Son of man indeed goeth, according to that which is determined"; and (Luke 24:44-46): "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled which are written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms concerning Me: for it is thus written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise again from the dead."

pidan posted:

Sure, but there has to be a reason we founded our tradition on this stuff in particular. Is it just the miracles? Lots of guys do miracles.

Sure, but let's assume the pharisee is actually a fine dude in general (after all, the text doesn't state otherwise). Is he also supposed to beat his chest and stare at the floor in shame? And anyway, I think it's pretty dangerous to recommend constant self-deprecation and shame as a religious practice. The bit about tax collectors is an interesting bit of trivia, but still - I get why robbers and thieves are bad, but is the tax collector really in the same category? Would a robber or thief also be "justified" just by beating himself up a bit?

I guess it has to do with the tax collector judging himself and the pharisee "judging" others, as in the parable about the board in a guy's eye. But I don't really know because I don't know what "justified" is supposed to mean. Justified in relation to what?

quote:

If you look into his words, you will find that he asked nothing of God. He goes up indeed to pray, but instead of asking God, praises himself; and even insults him that asked. The Publican, on the other hand, driven by his stricken conscience afar off, is by his piety brought near.

Why then marvel you, whether God pardons, since He himself acknowledges it. The Publican stood afar off, yet drew near to God. And the Lord was nigh to him, and heard him, For the Lord is on high, yet has he regard to the lowly. He lifted not so much as his eyes to heaven; that he might be looked upon, he looked not himself. Conscience weighed him down, hope raised him up, he smote his own breast, he exacted judgment upon himself. Therefore did the Lord spare the penitent. You have heard the accusation of the proud, you have heard the humble confession of the accused Hear now the sentence of the Judge; Verily I say to you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other.

Paramemetic posted:

That said I think it's super important to try not to get too caught up in the details - it's not hard to get lost in the scholarship and forget about cultivating that mystic experience which is what I'm all about.

Bel_Canto posted:

hey everyone, if i could get some prayers for my brother, that would be really awesome. he just took the really courageous step of checking into an intensive depression treatment program. it looks like it'll do great things for him, but it's also probably not going to be easy.

Bel_Canto posted:

so apparently the ICK has established an oratory in Detroit about 45 minutes from me, and they're offering a full Solemn Requiem Mass with the Fauré Requiem this Wednesday to cap off Hallowtide. i am practically giddy at the thought of spending a gazillion hours in church this week.

System Metternich posted:

Visiting the cemetery yesterday got me wondering: around here, virtually every grave will have a small cavity or, uh, "vessel" full of water as part of it. It's mostly not holy water, as far as I'm aware, but just rainwater that's been gathering in there. It's traditional to sprinkle the graves with the water from it (normally three times), mostly with the fingers, though some of the receptacles will have a tiny aspergil too. Often people will make the sign of the cross with it too (though my grandma gently scolded me once for doing so because it was no holy water after all). Personally I suspect that the origin of this tradition was to ritually ease the pain of the souls trapped in purgatory (based on similar rituals in Germany that very likely had this as their origin), but I might well be mistaken. I know that at least in Vienna this is unheard of, but I'm not sure about the more rural regions of Austria. Do you guys know of that tradition as well?


Here you can see the receptacle at the grave of former German chancellor Ludwig Erhard (the heart-shaped thing)


And one of those "boxes" at my grandma's grave

Pellisworth posted:

Luther Martin shitposting continues to deliver, much as in the historical Reformation


Is your area really Catholic? My experience of the upper Midwest (here I'm thinking Minnesota, Wisconsin, northern Iowa, eastern Dakotas) is super Lutheran or generic Protestant and Scandinavian or German ethnically, with a strong language and cultural tradition disappearing for fairly obvious reasons during WW1 and WW2. At one point my family was Catholic and then there was some drama over remarriage and my great-grandfather (and one sibling) ran away, it's pretty murky.

I guess it would make sense if there were some strongly Catholic pockets in the region. The ELCA college I attended had a student body that was about one-third Catholic. I just haven't been exposed to them I guess.

HEY GAL posted:

you and i are still like this on everyone's need for more Aristotle in our religion though. *Holds up index and middle fingers, pressed close together*

Lake of Methane posted:

Pellisworth posted:

I guess I'd pose the following to whoever wants to tackle them from their tradition's point of view, and sorry if I (unintentionally) mischaracterize any stances:

From St. Jerome's letters: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001.htm posted:

For I who fancied it too bold a wish to be allowed by an exchange of letters to counterfeit to myself your presence in the flesh,....Oh, if only the Lord Jesus Christ would suddenly transport me to you...,with what a close embrace would I clasp your neck, how fondly would I press kisses upon that mouth which has so often joined with me of old in error or in wisdom. But as I am unworthy (not that you should so come to me but) that I should so come to you, and because my poor body, weak even when well, has been shattered by frequent illnesses; I send this letter to meet you instead of coming myself, in the hope that it may bring you hither to me caught in the meshes of love's net.

But what is this, and why do I foolishly importune you again? Away with entreaties, an end to coaxing words. Offended love does well to be angry. You have spurned my petition; perhaps you will listen to my remonstrance. What keeps you, effeminate soldier, in your father's house? Where are your ramparts and trenches? When have you spent a winter in the field? Lo, the trumpet sounds from heaven! Lo, the Leader comes with clouds!

What brings you, a solitary, into the throng of men? The advice that I give is that of no inexperienced mariner who has never lost either ship or cargo, and has never known a gale. Lately shipwrecked as I have been myself, my warnings to other voyagers spring from my own fears. On one side, like Charybdis, self-indulgence sucks into its vortex the soul's salvation. On the other, like Scylla, lust, with a smile on her girl's face, lures it on to wreck its chastity.

I am the prodigal son who although I have squandered all the portion entrusted to me by my father, have not yet bowed the knee in submission to him; not yet have I commenced to put away from me the allurements of my former excesses. And because it is only a little while since I have begun not so much to abandon my vices as to desire to abandon them, the devil now ensnares me in new toils, he puts new stumbling-blocks in my path, be encompasses me on every side.

St. Basil of Caesarea posted:

The cleric or monk who molests youths or boys or is caught kissing or committing some turpitude, let him be whipped in public, deprived of his crown [tonsure] and, after having his head shaved, let his face be covered with spittle; and [let him be] bound in iron chains, condemned to six months in prison, reduced to eating rye bread once a day in the evening three times per week. After these six months living in a separate cell under the custody of a wise elder with great spiritual experience, let him be subjected to prayers, vigils and manual work, always under the guard of two spiritual brothers, without being allowed to have any relationship … with young people.

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

So the difference between worship and veneration is just a matter of acknowledging a difference in power?

pidan posted:

It doesn't really have a parallel outside of religion.

Mo Tzu posted:

what if the artist raped a 12 year old girl, or turned a curious bitch into a pillar of salt