|
I know, it's a crazy idea, Clancy bullshit, not going to happen, etc. But let's all indulge our inner Clancy for a minute. How would it work, just from a mechanical perspective? The country is too decentralized to allow a sufficiently small group of plotters to seize all the centers of power. In my opinion an attempted coup would result in a 1991 Soviet Union style scenario that would lead to the breakup of the United States. Which is why you see Obama et al going to lengths to respect the process, they're not stupid.
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 08:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 06:09 |
|
|
Well for starters it'd be YUUUGE. More to the point, who would execute these coup plans? I am unfamiliar with voting dynamics, but the military seems like a strongly pro-Trump (or if not pro Trump, then definitely anti-coup) institution? Who would be the deep state here, and what interests would they have in setting the precedent of a coup?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 11:31
|
|
|
I think it would initially look more like secession than a coup. Basically, team Trump goes way over the line about something or other, and California declares itself an independent country (they're really the only state in a position to make such a bold move and possibly get away with it), tells its citizens and corporations that they don't need to pay federal taxes anymore, and takes control of all military installations in its borders. Trump will have the same choice Lincoln did about whether to let them go, or to try and make them stay by force. If he lets them go, other states will probably also secede (maybe just Oregon and Washington, due to geographical reasons). If he fights them, it will depend on how things play out that would determine whether other states rally to California's defense or stay on the sidelines. It also depends heavily on who the military sides with. Trump is not Lincoln. He'd probably do something incredibly stupid like bomb a civilian town, and then we'd have nationwide chaos. It would only be amidst the riots and police/military crackdowns that a more traditional coup could take place, where Trump is assassinated or some military generals declare themselves in charge and Trump flees to Moscow. Obviously, none of this is likely.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 11:55
|
|
|
The question is absurd. There is no deep state. The United States is too politically, economically, and geographically decentralized to allow anyone to seize power. The armed forces are bombarded with messages about the importance of civilian control on a day-to-day basis and institutionally distrust one another too much. No one in the political or media elite have an interest in seeing a coup succeeded. The public would not accept it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 12:18
|
|
|
What's more likely is a group of pissed off republicans (and democrats) working behind the scenes to get Trump impeached. There really shouldn't be a problem digging up some worthwhile charges what with his broad conflict of interest which is explicitly forbidden in the constitution. This still wouldn't be that great because Pence and his insane cabinet picks would be still there. And I'm not aware of any process that would remove the whole administration and trigger new elections. Now imagine that Trump refuses to resign or recognize the process, what then? The Coup d'État Practical Handbook suggests that you don't really need mass support or even the whole military on your side, their acceptance is only necessary afterwards. So really all what would be necessary is take control of several executive offices, all of which I assume are in DC. Just get the Secret Service and Capitol PD on your side and go ahead.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 14:26
|
|
|
You can look at example of a failed coup in Turkey and conclude that it's a bad idea. If the so-called deep state has any depth at all, they know full well its better to just let their adversaries sabotage themselves as time goes by. Trump is a proven master at that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 14:46
|
|
|
After impeachment by the House and a conviction from the Senate, if Trump refuses to go I don't think the Secret Service or the Military would protect him. The process cannot be appealed, so I think the DOJ, (U.S. Marshals?) would immediately move to transfer him to prison unless he gets a swift pardon from Pence.
tonybaloney fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Dec 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 14:49
|
|
|
What "deep state"? The military, the intelligence agencies, and the billionaires all already love Trump. Who else is left?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 15:27
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:What "deep state"? The military, the intelligence agencies, and the billionaires all already love Trump. Who else is left?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 15:29
|
|
|
Trump imprisoning / disappearing a couple thousand members of the elite would create or I guess more precisely free up a lot of jobs and increase (upwards and, in the case of the suits landing in the slammer, downwards) social mobility. I support this.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 15:35
|
|
|
Pence is going to poison trump and it'll be ruled a heart attack. That is about the only coup I can imagine.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 18:12
|
|
|
The Republicans would impeach trump in a heartbeat rather than let California secede
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 18:15
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:What "deep state"? The military, the intelligence agencies, and the billionaires all already love Trump. Who else is left?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 18:15
|
|
|
A Coup would never work in the United States because the US Military above all else to a almost religiously zealotry degree believe in Civilian Authority and this is droned into all officer's heads during training. You may read about how the military is conservative ,but they're also constitutionalist. The majority of them believe strongly in the US Constitution. A good example of how abhorrent our country finds it is to look up the Alexander Haig incident after Reagan was shot.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 18:18
|
|
|
You're delusional, it'd be full on civil war.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 18:18
|
|
|
There is no such thing as a 'deep state' in the us op.Gail Wynand posted:CIA is leaking hardcore against Trump right now if you haven't noticed No they aren't.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 18:27
|
|
|
Gail Wynand posted:CIA is leaking hardcore against Trump right now if you haven't noticed, and plenty of billionaires hate Trump. Are we substituting reality with leftist wetdreams again
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 18:33
|
|
|
override367 posted:The Republicans would impeach trump in a heartbeat rather than let California secede He gets bounced on his rear end. Pence is the savior redeemer, they shuffle the chairs a little and it's done. Then they can spread all the poo poo he was doing and make it seem like the rogue outsider was going to make everything terrible and ruin America for his own gain. Good thing the Sensible Guys managed to take him down. Any actual crisis situation, like Inferior Third Season described, would be pretty outlandish and scary as gently caress. It would sure be interesting to see how the markets would react to California claiming authority over Beale AFB, while Pendleton declares it and San Diego are sanctuary cities to the Trumpenreich.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 18:39
|
|
|
does trump like cigars, i think the cia has a stockpile of exploding ones they wont be needing now
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 18:39
|
|
|
Pajser posted:You can look at example of a failed coup in Turkey and conclude that it's a bad idea. Much like he sabotaged himself right out of the primary and sabotaged himself out of the general election?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 18:49
|
|
|
Hambilderberglar posted:I am unfamiliar with voting dynamics, but the military seems like a strongly pro-Trump (or if not pro Trump, then definitely anti-coup) institution?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 18:52
|
|
|
"Deep state" sounds like the ramblings of a person desperate to believe there is order and a plan to the universe. If such a thing existed and was against Trump he never would have been elected.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 18:53
|
|
|
Hollismason posted:A Coup would never work in the United States because the US Military above all else to a almost religiously zealotry degree believe in Civilian Authority and this is droned into all officer's heads during training. You may read about how the military is conservative ,but they're also constitutionalist. The majority of them believe strongly in the US Constitution.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 19:48
|
|
|
TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:No they aren't.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 19:54
|
|
|
Take your medication, op.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 19:57
|
|
|
it'd actually be pretty hilarious if california tried to secede, trump mocked them on twitter and refused to recognize them as a nation, california demanded that trump withdraw all u.s. troops from sovereign californian territory, trump mocked them on twitter more, california started shelling u.s. military installations, etc worked out really fuckin well last time it happened in america
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 20:06
|
|
|
What if the New California Republic just turned off twitter? Your eastern media would grind to a halt, the president silenced. It'd be anarchy, I tell you what.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 20:09
|
|
|
oh if it meant i couldn't get my daily fix of trumptweets i'd join the armed forces myself and fight for my country  trump's incoherent haranguing gives me purpose
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 20:12
|
|
|
Isn't the real question here if there are enough Democratic partisans/faithless electors in the MI, PA, and WI delegations to the Electoral College to swing the result of the election in a constitutional manner? It would be meaningless to send it to the House as Trump would just win there instead. Also, is all this intel leaking about Trump being a useful idiot for Russia setting the stage for faithless electors to swing the election? As if Federalist 68 wasn't enough justification already...
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 20:31
|
|
|
if the merpeople didn't rise up after Deepwater I think we're just going to have to accept they're not going to, OP
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 20:33
|
|
|
Zeno-25 posted:Isn't the real question here if there are enough Democratic partisans/faithless electors in the MI, PA, and WI delegations to the Electoral College to swing the result of the election in a constitutional manner? It would be meaningless to send it to the House as Trump would just win there instead. If there is no majority and if even one elector chooses a third option, the top three go up for consideration. What I'm saying here is that you should all be prepared for President Ron Paul. Edit: Clarified that this scenario is where there is no majority winner. Dr. Arbitrary fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Dec 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 20:42
|
|
|
Dr. Arbitrary posted:If even one elector chooses a third option, the top three go up for consideration. I thought this only applied if no candidate reaches 270 in the Electoral College?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 20:44
|
|
|
Zeno-25 posted:I thought this only applied if no candidate reaches 270 in the Electoral College? Pretty sure. Though I suppose technically if enough faithless electors cast votes for Ron Paul he would be one of the three names in consideration by the House. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 20:48
|
|
|
Zeno-25 posted:I thought this only applied if no candidate reaches 270 in the Electoral College? Yes, I thought that was implied in the scenario. Enough electors flip sides by voting for either Hillary or someone else to create no majority. I'll edit my post to be more clear.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 20:49
|
|
|
They're all a bunch of wusses and the only thing they'll do is resign and think "Well, that'll show him".
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 20:53
|
|
|
Invisible Handjob posted:"Deep state" sounds like the ramblings of a person desperate to believe there is order and a plan to the universe. If such a thing existed and was against Trump he never would have been elected. The term doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. You can call it the military-industrial-intelligence complex if you want, but no they're not going to coup Trump lol. There might be a lot of bureaucratic infighting though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 21:07
|
|
|
Inferior Third Season posted:California declares itself an independent country ... and takes control of all military installations in its borders.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 22:27
|
|
|
tekz posted:The term doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. You can call it the military-industrial-intelligence complex if you want, but no they're not going to coup Trump lol. There might be a lot of bureaucratic infighting though. The term deep state was created to refer to the network within the Turkish government responsible for the nation's numerous coups and military conspiracies, and is useful for describing circumstances in several other states like Greece for example prior to the establishment of its military junta in the late 1960s. The analogy becomes very tenuous however when extended to the United States.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 22:36
|
|
|
Squalid posted:The term deep state was created to refer to the network within the Turkish government responsible for the nation's numerous coups and military conspiracies, and is useful for describing circumstances in several other states like Greece for example prior to the establishment of its military junta in the late 1960s. The analogy becomes very tenuous however when extended to the United States. I disagree, but this thread's premise is pointless anyway so whatever.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 22:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 06:09 |
|
|
tekz posted:The term doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. You can call it the military-industrial-intelligence complex if you want, but no they're not going to coup Trump lol. There might be a lot of bureaucratic infighting though. Squalid posted:The term deep state was created to refer to the network within the Turkish government responsible for the nation's numerous coups and military conspiracies, and is useful for describing circumstances in several other states like Greece for example prior to the establishment of its military junta in the late 1960s. The analogy becomes very tenuous however when extended to the United States. "Deep state" has a lot of meanings, all of which boil down to "the shadowy conspiracy that a) secretly controls the country from the shadows regardless of who the nominal leader is, or b) is secretly responsible for all dissent against our country's glorious leader and is constantly scheming to undermine or overthrow our great government". It's basically a genericized conspiracy theory. In places like Egypt or Turkey, it generally holds meaning B, while in the US it usually is used for meaning A.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2016 23:00
|
|