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Hello. I've been meaning to post something here for a while, and I guess I'm finally doing that. This is a story I wrote a couple of months ago. It's set in a wee village a few miles outside the centre of Edinburgh named Cramond, and the characters mainly speak in a Scottish dialect. If anything needs clarification, please let me know. Synopsis: Old fisherman shares cocoa with bereaved non-binary person on a dock. ___ Cocoa ‘See him starin at the watter? What’s his fuckin problem?’ I turn towards the dock to see somebody wi long hair sat in a suit looking toward Cramond Island. The tide’s just gone out, so he could go out there, but he’s no moving. A girl in a summer dress brushes past him and hops down to the path. ‘Is there a problem?’ Jamie’s being a grumpy auld bastert the day. Nearly knocked me in the Forth when the line wis tangled and I went tay loosen it, but all he said wis ‘watch it yi prick’. Didny even offer to buy the cocoa when we got back. Don’t know why I’m putting up wi his shite the now. ‘Look at him! He husny moved an inch since we got here! It’s like there’s a fuckin corpse on the dock.’ ‘Jamie, we got back half an hour ago. What’s the problem?’ He throws me one of his trademark ‘yi fuckin idiot’ glares. Thanks for that. ‘He husny moved since we set off this morning.’ ‘Well, you should’ve said that, ya prick.’ ‘You should’ve been paying attention! I’m no here to coddle yi all yir fuckin life! It’s no my problem if yi dinny remember me pointing him out this morning!’ ‘Christ, I’m only human! You make me fuckin drive the day because ‘oh, I’m no well’, and when we get out there yi nearly knock me aff the fuckin boat! I’ve had mair things on my mind than somedy sitting on the dock!’ ‘Well who’s fault is that then?’ ‘Yours!’ Jamie sits there, fuckin raging now. He slurps a ton of cocoa. Disny take his evil eye off me. I expect him to draw a 12-gauge shotgun out his arse and blow my fuckin brains out at this rate. The lad’s still no moved an inch. ‘Well,’ he says efter a couple minutes, ‘at least I’m no sitting around like a fuckin waster aw day. I’m going out wi you tay feed ma family, and this oval office’s jist sitting on his arse instead of dayin something productive wi his life! If I had my way I’d take every fuckin scrounger like him and–’ fuckin hell he’s still reading the Daily Express. Telt him tay stop, but I suppose he canny kick the habit that easy. I take a sip of cocoa and fuckin hell that’s hot. Nearly burnt my fuckin tongue aff. Dinny ken how Jamie’s is still attached, he’s ranting away nay bother. Mibby Elaine in the café cooled down his cocoa because he just canny take the heat. Wouldny surprise me, the fuckin grump. ‘…and we dinny gie them TVs and Playstations and that, we dinny gie them a cushy ride, we make them work their arses off. Do you understand what I’m saying, Mike? Mike?’ ‘Aye, yeah, and dyi just send them aw tay the gas chambers when they canny work any mair?’ He looks at me like I’ve jist killed his family. ‘Whit the gently caress are you talkin about? I’m trying tay tell you how I’d deal wi aw the wasters and cheats, and yir calling me a fuckin Nazi?’ ‘Nah, you’re no a Nazi, yir jist a condescending arsehole.’ ‘Look,’ Jamie sighs, ‘yi prick. We are in a recession caused by fuckin wasters like that oval office over there. If he disny want tay work, we should be dayin everything in our power tay make him work, awrite? Christ alive, this is tedious. Need to get away. ‘Well, okay, instead of assuming that he’s a ‘fuckin waster’, I’m gonny go over and ask how he’s dayin. Dyi huv a problem wi that?’ Jamie shrugs and waves me off. Thank Christ. I grab my cocoa and head toward the suit. He sticks out like a sore thumb against the shore, clutching his legs, dayin a thousand-yard stare. His hair’s blown every which way by the breeze. Looks like he husny showered in a couple of days. Mibby the guy’s actually a zombie and he’ll spring up and tear my guts out if I’m no careful. Mibby he’s actually a spy. He disny react when I stand beside him. He’s just sitting there, breathing in and out in time wi the waves. ‘Excuse me,’ I say. ‘Lad. Are you okay?’ ‘I’m jealous.’ ‘Whit?’ ‘You see them over there,’ he points at the girl in the summer dress, ‘and you think, why the gently caress can’t I be them? They’re so amazing, the way they’re presenting themself and everything, and I just…’ He trails off and mutters something under his breath. ‘I’m serious, lad, whit’s the matter?’ He snaps his head, lurches back and blinks a few times. Don’t think he realised I wis talking to him. ‘Jesus, sorry about that.’ he replies. The lad brushes away his long ginger hair and looks at me. His eyes are blood red. There’s alcohol on his breath. Can’t tell what it is though. ‘Aye, I’m okay. Sorry, I didn’t mean to startle you there.’ ‘Nah, you’re fine. I wis just wondering, whit are yi dayin out here?’ He pauses and looks back towards Cramond Island. The girl in the summer dress walks onto the island. His breath accelerates, and he bolts tay his feet. ‘Jesus, I’m sorry,’ he starts walking away, ‘I shouldn’t be here, I’m sorry–’ ‘Lad, you’re fine.’ I grab onty him. He shudders, stops and looks at me. ‘What’s the matter?’ ‘I just…’ He takes a deep breath and sits down. ‘I was at a funeral yesterday. We were friends in uni but he graduated and I was at his wedding a couple of weeks ago but now…’ He breathes again. loving hell. The guy doesn’t look older than 20. ‘I’m sorry,’ I say as I sit down. ‘We were in a play together. Didny really speak to him until he graduated and he invited me to his wedding. I came there and I saw him drained, confined to his wheelchair, but…’ He breathes with the sea again. ‘…I dunno, he looked happy. Cancer hosed up his body, but he seemed as bright as ever.’ The boy stares at the island. ‘…I’m sorry you went through that,’ I say. The girl’s over the horizon now. He looks back at me. ‘It’s fine. He was…22 I think? I wasny even a month older than him. It just…it comes at random, and when it does, it…’ He screams intay the suit. ‘I’m okay. He left a widow and closer friends, I just shared a stage with him.’ ‘It looks like you’re taking it awfy hard though.’ ‘Aye, I guess,’ he mutters as he takes out a hipflask. ‘I’m getting by.’ He unscrews the flask and takes a swig. ‘We did some great things…’ His voice trails off. Looks like he’s had a fair bit the day. The boy sings a tune under his breath that I’ve never heard, and I dinny ken him fay Adam but Christ awmighty, if Jamie were here the lad wid probly have drowned himsel, the state he’s in. ‘What’s yir name, son?’ I ask. ‘Daniel. Yirsel?’ ‘Mike. What’re you drinking?’ ‘Whisky,’ he replies. ‘Aw, smashing. What kind?’ ‘Jack Daniels.’ Oh. Whiskey. ‘Dyi want a bit?’ ‘Eh, no thanks. So whityi dayin out here?’ ‘I dunno, I just…I had to go somewhere. I got home, but I couldn’t do a loving thing, and I couldn’t get to sleep, so I came down here about six in the morning and I just…sat here all day.’ ‘Lucky it’s warm the day, then. You’d be fuckin freezing any other day.’ ‘I guess.’ It’s about five the now. Jamie’ll probably be fuckin raging if I stay…nah. gently caress him. ‘Sorry to disturb yi. My friend over there wis like, oh, that guy in the suit is a waster, he should be working–’ ‘They.’ ‘–he should be dayin this and that and – what was that?’ ‘They. It’s they, not he.’ ‘What dyi mean?’ ‘My pronouns, it’s not…gently caress it, never mind.’ ‘What?’ ‘Never mind.’ Before I can speak, he goes on. ‘These past few weeks I’ve had a lot of trouble finding work. My parents were all like ‘ahhhhhh if you don’t find a job you’ll be unemployable’ but then I went to the doctor and…’ He shakes his head. ‘I’m waiting to hear back from Tesco. Had an interview a while ago that went well, but…’ ‘Ach, dinny worry yersel. Something’ll come up.’ The clouds cover the sun. Daniel’s shivering now, and I realise that I’ve got a bloody hot cup of cocoa in my hands. ‘Here, dyi want a bit of cocoa?’ ‘…Aye, that’d be good.’ He grabs the mug by the broad side and slurps it. Think he realises how cold he is. I’m probably never gonny meet Daniel again, but I canny help but make sure he’s okay. ‘So what are yi gonny day now?’ ‘Eh. Christ, I’ve not eaten all day. Should probably head home and make tea.’ ‘I’ll buy yi dinner at the Cramond Inn. My treat.’ He shakes his head and stands up. ‘Nah, man, it’s okay. I’ve got pasta at home.’ ‘At least let me gie yi a ride–’ ‘Mike,’ he passes the cup back, ‘it’s okay. I just live up the road. I appreciate the offer, but I’ll be okay.’ ‘But–’ ‘No, seriously,’ he starts walking off, ‘thank you for your generosity, but I’ll be okay. I needed this. Thank you for the chat. It helped.’ ‘…You’re welcome?’ He runs up the village. I’m in two minds the now. I want to go after him, but I just let him go. The lad wants to be in peace, I think. I don’t think I helped. I walk back. I assume Jamie husny taken his eyes off me for the past five minutes. Knowing him he husny blinked either and his eyes are probably red as the devil’s. He’s probably pissed off at me for my wee jaunt, but I couldny give a flying gently caress. ‘Aw, you scared the poor waster off.’ Leopards canny change their spots. His mug is flat on its side, all finished, wi a small layer of solid cocoa at the bottom. ‘Dyi see whit I was saying now?’ ‘Dyi ken a thing about people or are yi jist gonny assume that everyone is a waster but you?’ ‘I ken that bastard ran off and left yi alayn because he didny want tay listen tay yir pish! No, no, dinny yi groan at me,’ though I wasny going to before, ‘it’s you who canny accept that some folk are playing the fuckin system!’ He’s gonny go on for a few minutes like this, and then I’m gonny drive him home and he’ll forget all about this when we day this all over again next week. God knows, we’re probably gonny get a better haul. I just hope, for Jamie’s sake, we dinny get another wean like that, so I don’t have to listen to this shite again. My cocoa’s half-empty. I take a sip. ‘Dyi ken something?’ ‘-national service, and – Whit?’ ‘This cocoa’s still fuckin hot.’ He stares at me like I’m a fuckin idiot again. Mibby I am. Venomous fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Dec 16, 2016 |
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Dec 16, 2016 03:50
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What type of feedback are you looking for? Anything in particular? I'll just go with what stands out for me at the moment. First off something really technical, using the single quotation apostrophe style ' rather than ". It made it difficult to read and differentiate between speech and non-speech and I got mixed up between thoughts, speech and description a few times. On using the Scottish dialect spelling, I'm used to "didnae" and "tae" and "ye" rather than your "didny" style. It might be a regional thing, it might be simply what I've read, but usually I'm used to Scottish (and Welsh, and Irish) writing with language like that and it's easy for me to pick up, it wasnae here. Similarly you dropped my expectations here (although it's not definite it would be used in Scotland,) where you used "my problem," instead of "me/ma/mai problem." It could entirely be Irvine Welsh's fault but for me there's one "accepted" spelling for the bits of the accent now, ye ken? I don't know if it was deliberate but I think there's a mix up of gender when the two lads are sitting together at first. I couldn't make out what their relationship was, "coddle ye," suggests a relationship to me, and a deep care, not two guys out fishing even if they are buddies. Where the story went it made me think this was an attempt to play with ideas of male/male relationships and heteronormative bonding, but if it is it's not hugely apparent. Also "I’m going out wi you tay feed ma family," where "going out" to me is dating/in a relationship. I just urban dictionaried this, and it seems in the US it's more of a high school/middle school phrase whereas all the Celtic Nations people I know would use it for any non-long term relationship, i.e. informal language for dating. "Are you two going out now?" The two guys relationship wasn't clearly defined (or evocative enough) for me. I understand the despising your best friend thing, you think they're an arse and give them poo poo but you still love them to bits. It just didn't come across as anything more than filler dialogue for me. When I re-read the start my recollection of reading it first had that part going on for a lot longer, rather than the relatively short bit it is. This indicates it either dragged for me, or nothing stood out as a defining hook for my memory. I think giving Jamie some personality other than, "prick" could help there. The introduction of the trans/non-binary part was superb. I really appreciated them saying it and the protag not picking up on it, then the call back a few moments later with the "gently caress it, never mind." It really nailed the idea of not forcing pronouns/gender on some random stranger when you couldn't be hosed dealing with the questions that would almost certainly come, or even just the, "I couldn't be hosed dealing with a reaction, whatever it may be." From there the idea of the relationship they had with the dead guy slotted in nicely, having to wear a suit to get a job, and not having a job were all nice touches, but I do wonder if that level of subtlety is something you're aiming for (or even intended.) Overall, the pacing was off. It too long to establish any draw/hook for me. More evidence of a relationship between the two guys fishing might help that. It didn't resolve great either, rather it just petered out. My instinct would be to raise some idea of the passing of the friend, and put a little reflection on his own friendship with the annoying prick with tepid cocoa. If you're going to submit it, it needs polish. It's a bit too loose for me right now, but there's enough going on in it that other parts could easily resonate with other people. Finally, for me, I couldn't help but think of Some Like it Hot, with the whole gender thing tied into the cocoa, and Jamie definitely not liking it hot. Edit: I just looked at the spoiler text. It wasn't obvious to me they were old lads fishing. They came across as young wasters themselves (again that's an association I have purely through Irvine Welsh.) I know there's a reference to a family in there, but maybe a more specific reference to grown/adult children could clear that up. Mrenda fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Dec 16, 2016 |
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Dec 16, 2016 04:41
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Going to reply to each point in turn. Was just looking for general feedback, and your post was incredibly useful in this sense.Mrenda posted:First off something really technical, using the single quotation apostrophe style ' rather than ". It made it difficult to read and differentiate between speech and non-speech and I got mixed up between thoughts, speech and description a few times. Noted. Wasn't aware of this. I've generally taken the two as interchangeable for the past few years. I'll change this in the future. Mrenda posted:On using the Scottish dialect spelling, I'm used to "didnae" and "tae" and "ye" rather than your "didny" style. It might be a regional thing, it might be simply what I've read, but usually I'm used to Scottish (and Welsh, and Irish) writing with language like that and it's easy for me to pick up, it wasnae here. Similarly you dropped my expectations here (although it's not definite it would be used in Scotland,) where you used "my problem," instead of "me/ma/mai problem." It could entirely be Irvine Welsh's fault but for me there's one "accepted" spelling for the bits of the accent now, ye ken? I understand where you're coming from. To be honest, I'm not entirely keen on that sort of standard orthography for Scottish dialectal speech. I'm mainly influenced in that respect by James Kelman, who transliterates his characters' speech in a phonetic orthography which represents how they're actually speaking. I mean, I like Welsh, but I find Kelman's approach to dialogue a lot more immersive. For example, this is a random bit of dialogue from How late it was, how late: How late it was, how late, p.129-30 posted:Whoever it was had a radio blasting; it was a sports' programme. Sammy shouted: Hullo there! Maybe it's just me, but I can seriously hear that kind of conversation playing out as I read it. I find it so drat immersive. The fact he writes 'cannay' and 'couldnay' and other terms in the way he does that makes it seem a lot more real to me. Conversely, the standard ways of representing that speech in the way you describe seem awfy hackneyed and clichéd to me. Granted, in writing that I now see that I need to work on making that kind of speech a bit more consistent in the text, but yeah, that's where I'm coming from there. Mrenda posted:I don't know if it was deliberate but I think there's a mix up of gender when the two lads are sitting together at first. I couldn't make out what their relationship was, "coddle ye," suggests a relationship to me, and a deep care, not two guys out fishing even if they are buddies. Where the story went it made me think this was an attempt to play with ideas of male/male relationships and heteronormative bonding, but if it is it's not hugely apparent. Also "I’m going out wi you tay feed ma family," where "going out" to me is dating/in a relationship. I just urban dictionaried this, and it seems in the US it's more of a high school/middle school phrase whereas all the Celtic Nations people I know would use it for any non-long term relationship, i.e. informal language for dating. "Are you two going out now?" This is a fair point. I was trying to play off the idea that they'd been friends for a long time and trying to make fun of that kind of homosocial bond between them, but yeah, I can see it needs a bit of improvement there. Mrenda posted:The two guys relationship wasn't clearly defined (or evocative enough) for me. I understand the despising your best friend thing, you think they're an arse and give them poo poo but you still love them to bits. It just didn't come across as anything more than filler dialogue for me. When I re-read the start my recollection of reading it first had that part going on for a lot longer, rather than the relatively short bit it is. This indicates it either dragged for me, or nothing stood out as a defining hook for my memory. I think giving Jamie some personality other than, "prick" could help there. Also a very fair point. I see now that Jamie's a bit of a grumpy kipper strawman, and there's not really all that much connecting him and Mike in the text. Will take this into consideration when I come to revise it. Mrenda posted:The introduction of the trans/non-binary part was superb. I really appreciated them saying it and the protag not picking up on it, then the call back a few moments later with the "gently caress it, never mind." It really nailed the idea of not forcing pronouns/gender on some random stranger when you couldn't be hosed dealing with the questions that would almost certainly come, or even just the, "I couldn't be hosed dealing with a reaction, whatever it may be." From there the idea of the relationship they had with the dead guy slotted in nicely, having to wear a suit to get a job, and not having a job were all nice touches, but I do wonder if that level of subtlety is something you're aiming for (or even intended.) TBH I'm not really sure if the subtlety was intended, but I'm grateful for the fact that you found it in there. Mrenda posted:Overall, the pacing was off. It too long to establish any draw/hook for me. More evidence of a relationship between the two guys fishing might help that. It didn't resolve great either, rather it just petered out. My instinct would be to raise some idea of the passing of the friend, and put a little reflection on his own friendship with the annoying prick with tepid cocoa. Noted. I'm definitely going to flesh out that relationship a bit more, and I like your idea there. Mrenda posted:Finally, for me, I couldn't help but think of Some Like it Hot, with the whole gender thing tied into the cocoa, and Jamie definitely not liking it hot. ...poo poo, I've been meaning to watch that for ages. Thank you for the reminder. Mrenda posted:Edit: I just looked at the spoiler text. It wasn't obvious to me they were old lads fishing. They came across as young wasters themselves (again that's an association I have purely through Irvine Welsh.) I know there's a reference to a family in there, but maybe a more specific reference to grown/adult children could clear that up. Fair point. Will do that. I see where you're coming from with the young waster bit, and I'll definitely clarify it. Thank you so much for all your criticism here. I'm incredibly grateful for your comments, and you've given me a lot to think about.
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Dec 16, 2016 13:37
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Venomous posted:I understand where you're coming from. To be honest, I'm not entirely keen on that sort of standard orthography for Scottish dialectal speech. I'm mainly influenced in that respect by James Kelman, who transliterates his characters' speech in a phonetic orthography which represents how they're actually speaking. I mean, I like Welsh, but I find Kelman's approach to dialogue a lot more immersive. For example, this is a random bit of dialogue from How late it was, how late: I picked it up easily, it's just a bit jarring it being different to what I have read (not much, but a bit of reading and Scottish twitter.) What I will say is that the closer relationship with "proper" English elevated the tone of the writing. Whereas Welsh's characters are often unlikable, or "wasters" and the writing reflects that your choice of the spelling gave your characters and so the writing a bit more of a literary feel, for want of a better description. I love, "husny" as a word and sound. If Welsh writes didnae, then didnay is just as acceptable and possibly more accessible. My worry is that if by being closer to proper spelling it actually makes it harder to sound the words as vocalising it you try and put it into BBC English. quote:This is a fair point. I was trying to play off the idea that they'd been friends for a long time and trying to make fun of that kind of homosocial bond between them, but yeah, I can see it needs a bit of improvement there. I absolutely understood but I had to go back and check at one point, so it took me out of the reading. I think addressing the age aspect will help with this. If I think of older men it's easier to imagine them being more comfortable with each other than a bunch of young guys, as well as being old enough to have integrated a long-term female influence into their behaviour as they've settled. They're still giving each other poo poo in the same way, but it carries less of a chance of one glassing the other as a hot-headed young fool, and their wives/partners have tamed them a bit. quote:TBH I'm not really sure if the subtlety was intended, but I'm grateful for the fact that you found it in there. This is my own particular perspective. It's a contentious and anyone interested in the area could take it in a totally different way, but for me it got close to the reality of what trans/non-binary people sacrifice for an easier life, and equally what they sacrifice/risk in pushing for realisation of their identity. It's what really sold me on the story. quote:Thank you so much for all your criticism here. I'm incredibly grateful for your comments, and you've given me a lot to think about. That's not a problem. There's a lot going on in it, and refining it a little to better highlight some of the relationship interplay would bring it up a lot for me. If you throw up a revised version I'd be happy to give it another read, albeit knowing the story and what I want from it.
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Dec 16, 2016 14:12
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I really enjoyed your treatment of dialogue in this. It is indeed immersive. I found your use of dialectical spellings in the narration inconsistent though. Either the entire story should be written in the dialectic voice, or just the dialogue. You've achieved a blend here. It might be interesting to try the story with the narration using standard English spelling and grammar, but maybe I'm way off base here. I would have enjoyed more of a setting established in the beginning. More sensory imagery, at least. And a real nitpick: the line 'I don't think I helped' could be dropped from near the end. I think we get that, or we would at least wonder if the conversation was helpful to Daniel if you leave that out. I look forward to a revision!
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Dec 20, 2016 05:50
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Liked the story and the idea of the accented writing, but it was a little hard to read because of it. I did, however, like that Daniel had a thinner accent than the fishermen and how it adds to the cultural separation between them. Only other thing I noticed was that the setting didn't feel cold; the characters just told us it was.
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Jan 9, 2017 01:47
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