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silence_kit posted:Just lol if you think this on this website. This is why the cries of 'educate thyself' in this thread are so out of place and unlike every other topic on this forum. Edit: Also you don't have PMs but let me know if you want your red text erased, because that's a particularly insane one.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:41
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Deified Data posted:Not a throwaway snipe, I legitimately want to know why that guy contributes if he doesn't trust himself to do it in good faith. I'd ask the same of you, but this is not the "give reactionary pricks attention" thread, this is the feminism thread, and you are not a feminist and clearly have no desire to become one, so leave.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:42
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Sharkie posted:The comment about how men overestimate how much housework they do reminded of the studies that show in discussion groups of men and women, men perceive women as talking much more than they actually do, so that when women speak something like 30% of the time, men will say they dominated the conversation (I can't find this particular study right now, so if someone could link it that would be awesome). Now like TB said, this is something even feminist men do; even if they know better we're all conditioned to have certain expectations about gender roles, and even the slightest hint that someone may be beginning to violate them can make men lose all sense of proportion, particularly when privileges are seemingly threatened. Anecdotally, I recall during one of the Presidential debates I thought afterwards that maybe Clinton really had had more speaking time than Trump, like he kept whining. The stats came out very quickly and turns out it was about equal, just as she claimed. I'd like to think I only thought that because listening to him is such a loving chore thanks to his incoherent rambling that I just tuned half of it out, but it's probably some sexism that is deeply rooted in there.  TB has spoken about the housework issue in other threads and it's interesting to me because, well, yeah like FactsAreUseless says, it can be really hard to know what even needs doing when you've been raised in the fairly typical household. My fiance and I live in different countries but we've had a couple of long-term visits which has been cohabiting more than vacation, and I've happily adopted some chores, done whatever else she asks, and done stuff that only needs done once in a long time. I'm not saying that with the intent of saying I'm a good feminist and treating my partner properly, but almost the opposite; I have little idea whether what I'm doing actually is a reasonable division. I've tried to tally it up because fundamentally I want us to have a fair partnership (plus, she's the one with a job, I figure me taking care of the home front is a pretty fair exchange) and I don't want to have her doing more than she should be - but it's really tough to figure out what I might be straight up overlooking. Next year we should be moving in together so I'll be able to sit down and actually talk to her about it, but as was said even that makes the assumptions of placing her on the spot and organizing things. She's likely to have concerns about being seen as a 'nag', like Defenestration says. I have no trouble with her being in charge as such, but I don't want to give her even more work, especially as her mental health means making decisions or telling people to do stuff is decidedly not something she enjoys. Trying to unpick things so deeply rooted gets pretty tricky, and it's a very good example of how subtly pernicious issues within misogyny, racism, etc., can be. Like that Must Be This Tall To Ride article says, it can seem incredibly small and superficial and even petty, when actually it can be very important as well very consequential, if men and women have been conditioned to approach things in different ways.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:43
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silence_kit posted:Just lol if you think this on this website. This is why the cries of 'educate thyself' in this thread are so out of place and unlike every other topic on this forum. Yeah, uh there's a reading list and basic definitions and an FAQ in the op, but when you waltz into here and ask the hard hitting questions like "what feminism is?" "what about men  ??" then you can get out. You are making GBS threads up the thread. There are many varied viewpoints in feminism and within the different schools, but please mansplain to me the orthodoxy you're feeling that we here are emitting (probably through our vaginas or our male non-shittiness)Quit this doubling down poo poo and get out. Thank you for your time, there is the door, please leave.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:44
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FactsAreUseless posted:Edit: Also you don't have PMs but let me know if you want your red text erased, because that's a particularly insane one. That'd be nice, thanks!
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Dec 28, 2016 00:46
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I was raised by very old-fashioned parents and when I moved out on my own, I started doing a lot of housework I had no idea even existed. After that, I noticed I started helping with stuff whenever I went to someone else's house for dinner and such, something I never did as a child/teen. I think it might help a lot for all men to live on their own for a while to gain an appreciation of all the work that taking care of a living space and a person really takes.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:47
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Mister Adequate posted:Trying to unpick things so deeply rooted gets pretty tricky, and it's a very good example of how subtly pernicious issues within misogyny, racism, etc., can be. Like that Must Be This Tall To Ride article says, it can seem incredibly small and superficial and even petty, when actually it can be very important as well very consequential, if men and women have been conditioned to approach things in different ways. Jolie Kerr writes "How to Clean Things" articles aimed at men as much as women, and she's a great place to start to try and understand the mindset. She hasn't written a "how to keep house" book yet, but when she does I'll buy it, because she's funny and has the reasonable and realistic attitude that cleaning things is just another kind of maintenance, not some showcase of femininity or quasi-religious virtue. Clean your stuff because you like your stuff and want your stuff to be nice. Unfuck Your Habitat is another gender-neutral source of housekeeping advice, and since it's aimed at people who are starting from absolute zero, particularly those climbing out of depression-related squalor, it's fantastic both for lists of what to clean and how, and for breaking the process down into manageable baby steps. Someone trying to train themselves to have an eye for what is clean and what is not could do a lot worse than trying out UFYH's "shine your sink'"or Jolie Kerr's "make your bed" daily mindfulness projects. You may not know how to analyze the whole house for cleanliness status, but you can see if the kitchen sink has crud in it or not every day and proceed accordingly. A clean sink makes dirt on the countertop more noticable, and it grows from there.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:51
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Thanks for those recommendations, I'll give them a look 
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Dec 28, 2016 00:55
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Defenestration posted:absolutely. an SO might say "just ask me, just remind me" but I am always super conscious that I don't want to be a "nag." What I value most in a person is someone who anticipates your needs. Someone who is thinking about you so you DON'T have to ask. This is a good point, cause "just tell me what to do" implicitly creates a double bind where, if you actually try to make the relationship work that way there's a whole host of tropes ready to comfort the man and reassure him that no, she's just a nag, she's "wearing the pants lol," and etc., so the moment he gets frustrated at being told to do chores, bam, you're the bad guy, and he's just the poor put-upon man trying to cope with a domineering wife. Even if a guy says that coming from a good place, the cultural pressure to resent it is immense. And thanks for the notes on The Second Sex btw, though I'm also not sure how "transcendant" is being used in it; did you ever clear that up?
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Dec 28, 2016 01:03
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This is an impossible question, but what is the current status of Feminism and the Feminist movement? I don't subscribe to a linear history of progress, but what is the next "step" for equal rights and treatment for women? Is it policy thru a new ERA and labor laws (maternity/paternity leave, female medical coverage, etc.)? Should we focus on personal, socio-cultural progress? I feel like women who makes strides in Hollywood and Washington get all the praise, meanwhile everything else stays the same for 99.99% of women. I understand they're the most visible, but I also think it's dangerous to rely on mass media to frame the feminist narrative. Frijolero fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 01:06
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Frijolero posted:This is an impossible question, but what is the current status of the Feminism and the Feminist movement? You're the No War But Class War guy who crashed the Misogynoir thread to whine about feminists liking Beyonce too much. I just want everyone to know that while they decide whether to respond to you. I'll repeat what I said in Misogynoir: If you're complaining that something is shallow and you've only made a shallow study of it yourself, shut up. The OP of this thread has a giant reading list in it and no one has mentioned pop culture once yet. You don't have a leg to stand on here, you're just So drat Mad that women choose for themselves what to care about instead of taking orders from you, and since you're lazy and maybe not too smart, you haven't been able to go any deeper into feminism than the pop culture stuff yourself. You can take your Marxoteen "impossible questions" to your local library. Don't come back and tell us The Problem With Feminism until you've read a loving book, junior. Tiny Brontosaurus fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 01:09
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What exactly is the advantage of someone with privilege to lose said privilege or give it up, even losing like 1% of their privilege?
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Dec 28, 2016 01:13
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Frijolero posted:This is an impossible question, but what is the current status of Feminism and the Feminist movement? a. Perhaps you may want to do some research and consult the reading list b. Do not come in here and ask us for the "status of feminism" c. Nobody is "relying on media to frame the feminist narrative," and more female representation behind the scenes and in media is a good thing. Also, it cannot be overstated how incredibly important it is having progressive women on the Hill, because women give more input when women are around, and women should be able to have visible policymaking roles, particularly when it comes to setting policy on women's issues. Do some reading before you post again please.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:16
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Black Baby Goku posted:What exactly is the advantage of someone with privilege to lose said privilege or give it up, even losing like 1% of their privilege? what's the advantage of a white dude wearing dreads
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Dec 28, 2016 01:17
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I'd ask the same of you, but this is not the "give reactionary pricks attention" thread, this is the feminism thread, and you are not a feminist and clearly have no desire to become one, so leave.  If I tick every item on the list except deferring to one-note bullies that treat me like the enemy for a difference in opinion I think I'm doing alright. I won't tell you how to advocate. Hope the thread gets good someday and moves past the same old dumpster fires by page 50.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:18
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Deified Data posted:me me me me me pay attention to meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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Dec 28, 2016 01:19
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Black Baby Goku posted:What exactly is the advantage of someone with privilege to lose said privilege or give it up, even losing like 1% of their privilege? Ah, yes. The "what's in it for me" element of gender equality. Out of interest, why do you think abolitionists became abolitionists?
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Dec 28, 2016 01:20
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Dec 28, 2016 01:22
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Black Baby Goku posted:What exactly is the advantage of someone with privilege to lose said privilege or give it up, even losing like 1% of their privilege? You also have to deal with the costs of accessing that privilege. Men lose access to male privilege, in whole or in part, if they don't act in the ways that men are supposed to act, under the same societal rules that enforce their privilege. If a man chooses to take a traditionally female job, like teaching, he loses economic power and privilege. Just as one example. But fighting back against the systems that enforce that privilege also fights back against the costs associated with accessing that privilege.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:27
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Vindicator posted:Ah, yes. The "what's in it for me" element of gender equality. Out of interest, why do you think abolitionists became abolitionists? Please don't give the white-dred-having white supremacist any attention. gently caress's sake people, there is actually stuff worth talking about regarding feminism besides how mad goons get about it.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:27
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I actually think it's a question that needs to be addressed: why should men give up a situation that benefits them? It's important to make men understand that they do not benefit from it in the ways they believe.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:30
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FactsAreUseless posted:Aside from the moral argument: Because not everyone in your life is going to be in the same race/gender/socioeconomic bracket. So even if you benefit from your privilege, people you care about are affected negatively by it. This has two immediate impacts: 1. The lives of people who care about are worse and 2. you will end up having to help care for those people. If a friend of yours can't find a place to live because they're black and gay, and they crash on your couch, that has a direct impact (economic and otherwise) on your life. If your wife or girlfriend can't get good medical care because her insurance doesn't cover an issue specific to women, that has a direct economic impact on your life. If your mother or daughter or sister makes less money because of her gender, that will have an economic impact on your life, direct or indirect. Privilege is only unequivocally beneficial if you surround yourself ONLY with others in your demographic: hence the rise of movements like Men Going Their Own Way, who seek to do that. I actually read this and it makes sense to me, a left leaning man. However I think the trouble lies in convincing anyone anything center or further right, to give up privilege they may have. One of the reasons trump won, in my opinion.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:31
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Oh, and calling people "white supremacists" out the gate is a sure fire way for no one to give a poo poo what you have to say.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:31
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stone cold posted:
I understand I'm asking wide, narrow questions, but I'm honestly trying to get more informed. I studied US Women's history in grad school and took a couple of courses on women in the developing world. I'm not some jerk off the street. But I am uninformed on current feminist trends. I'll reframe my question: Is the future of women's rights in government policy, socio-cultural progress, both? I understand some posters might be activists: Where is the movement headed and where would YOU like to see the movement go?
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Dec 28, 2016 01:32
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FactsAreUseless posted:I actually think it's a question that needs to be addressed: why should men give up a situation that benefits them? It's important to make men understand that they do not benefit from it in the ways they believe. FAU, no offense or mod sass meant, but can we talk about women's issues for like at least a few pages before we start talking about men?
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Dec 28, 2016 01:33
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FactsAreUseless posted:I actually think it's a question that needs to be addressed: why should men give up a situation that benefits them? It's important to make men understand that they do not benefit from it in the ways they believe. Sure but we're three pages into a feminism thread and all we've loving talked about is men. And BBG is a psychotically lovely person who should be run out of every thread he pops his dreded head into. But I guess it's not SA if we don't welcome trolls and then act shocked, shocked! when they turn a conversation to poo poo.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:33
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Frijolero posted:I understand I'm asking wide, narrow questions, but I'm honestly trying to get more informed. Get out you loving idiot marxoteen, nobody is ever going to take your bait no matter how many times you ask it or how many threads you try to hijack to do it. Can you only reach arousal if you've scolded a woman for owning a Beyonce album or what?
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Dec 28, 2016 01:34
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stone cold posted:FAU, no offense or mod sass meant, but can we talk about women's issues for like at least a few pages before we start talking about men? No offense, but isn't feminism about equality for all? Is it not a legit question to pose how to convince people to give up their privileges? Christ....
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Dec 28, 2016 01:34
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Black Baby Goku posted:I actually read this and it makes sense to me, a left leaning man. However I think the trouble lies in convincing anyone anything center or further right, to give up privilege they may have. One of the reasons trump won, in my opinion. For instance, there are very few households, however conservative, that have one income, which is male. That is no longer a common situation. And if you are a two-income household, with a man and a woman, that woman's earning potential is lower. Raising women's wages doesn't automatically lower men's. If you fight wage discrimination, you raise the income of that entire household. It doesn't zero out. If you have a household that depends on a woman's income, because the man is retired or unemployed or she just earns more of the household income, wage discrimination is hurting the earning power of that whole household. That's why discrimination against women relies on a social narrative that no longer exists. Once you acknowledge economic reality, discrimination against women becomes even more irrational. Misogyny isn't to the benefit of men. It hurts them, in directly measurable economic ways. Not getting into the negative impacts on their ability to have healthy, happy relationships. Misogyny does economic harm to men. That's an important argument to make, loudly and clearly, and very often.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:35
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Get out you loving idiot marxoteen, nobody is ever going to take your bait no matter how many times you ask it or how many threads you try to hijack to do it. Can you only reach arousal if you've scolded a woman for owning a Beyonce album or what? Why is this person not probated? I mean seriously this is EXACTLY why this forum has a bad reputation and no one has any meaningful conversation or debate that isn't a hive mind status. gently caress off
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Dec 28, 2016 01:35
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I always thought privilege was descriptive rather than prescriptive. The benefits conferred on me by being an (almost) white man were mine whether I wanted them or not, and I can't personally disclaim them even if I wanted to. But what I can do is not pretend that I have it easier than other people.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:35
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Black Baby Goku posted:No offense, but isn't feminism about equality for all? Is it not a legit question to pose how to convince people to give up their privileges? Christ.... Get out. You are a notorious troll, and you have nothing of value to contribute here.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:36
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Black Baby Goku posted:Oh, and calling people "white supremacists" out the gate is a sure fire way for no one to give a poo poo what you have to say. calling yourself black baby goku is apparently a hell of a way to command respect though
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Dec 28, 2016 01:36
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FactsAreUseless posted:Yes. That's my point, though. They don't benefit from it in the way they think. That's what we need to demonstrate. That's a really good point. Well stated.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:37
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Black Baby Goku posted:Why is this person not probated? I mean seriously this is EXACTLY why this forum has a bad reputation and no one has any meaningful conversation or debate that isn't a hive mind status. gently caress off Tb is cool and good and has posted excellently thus far, with great links. You have 'd. Get out.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:37
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stone cold posted:Get out. You are a notorious troll, and you have nothing of value to contribute here. Lumberjack Bonanza posted:calling yourself black baby goku is apparently a hell of a way to command respect though 
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Dec 28, 2016 01:37
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stone cold posted:FAU, no offense or mod sass meant, but can we talk about women's issues for like at least a few pages before we start talking about men?
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Dec 28, 2016 01:38
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Yeah dude you're really loving cool kramering into a feminism thread to ask "YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT MEN" we should totally respect your dipshit opinion stop calling yourself a leftist
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Dec 28, 2016 01:39
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Are white people wearing dreadlocks a feminist issue? Because I really hope not, otherwise it sounds like this thread for feminism is more of a tool for social control rather then something worthwhile like believing all people are equal and should be treated equally.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:42
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FactsAreUseless posted:Yes, absolutely. I've made the points I wanted to make about how "male privilege" hurts men, so someone can just quote them any time someone goes "what about men." I'll drop it. Oh thank you, I wasn't exactly sure what you were trying to get at. I'll add it to the op, hopefully people will ask less about it.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:42
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