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But Gorkamorka is really good.
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Jan 17, 2017 09:15
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ineptmule posted:Yeah, what are you on about. GorkaMorka is rad. Necromunda probably had the more versatile terrain.
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Jan 17, 2017 10:02
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Deadzone works great as a proxy for Necromunda. All you have to do is remove the mat.
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Jan 17, 2017 15:22
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glitchkrieg posted:Plus the lack of progression. Who plays one-off Necromunda except for intro games? When I said remove the mat, I just meant use the Deadzone scenery and whatever miniatures you're using to play Necromunda instead. Deadzone has campaign rules and progression. No one talks about it though because I think most of us just play it as a skirmish game. The only reason people don't just set a credits level and play one-off games of Necromunda is because it wasn't part of the culture of the game, but there's nothing to stop you from doing that and it would be far more balanced. Deadzone uses points instead of credits so maybe it's conceptually easier for people to approach it for one-offs. But it's nice being able to bring a bunch of different toys and types of units to the battlefield without having to slog through a series of games and hope for the best to get what I want. But I could do that too if my gaming group wanted to!
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Jan 17, 2017 15:38
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glitchkrieg posted:Because there's nothing separating starting gangs, and it'd be pretty boring rolling 3/3 WS/BS against each other. Then this is a mechanical failing of Necromunda and limitations of the starting options. Deadzone has a ton of variety in what you can take and even if two people both took Forge Fathers they could make dramatically different forces. And since the game works based on number of dice you roll which increase and decrease based on circumstance and equipment, it's not the same as WS/S 3 vs WS/T 3 every single time.
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Jan 17, 2017 18:12
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Ashcans posted:To be fair, you can make radically different starting gangs based on the roster you build and the equipment you take, so its not like they are all the same straight through. It's just that without the campaign you don't get any skill of stat development, which is primarily how the different factions are distinguished from each other - all Gangers are initially the same, but will develop in different ways. Even this isn't true if you use the additional, distinct factions from the expansion like Spyrers and Scavvies. Yeah I'm aware, but the development is still hampered by random tables, though as you mentioned the different gangs are skewed towards certain trends. I can't remember how limited since it's been years since I played a campaign, but I definitely remember being annoyed at getting +1 I or LD or something and not one of WS/BS/S/T/W, or getting a physical skill on a dude with BS 4. But I could also be completely misremembering and the player could have a lot more agency in the skills and stat increases.
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Jan 17, 2017 18:29
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glitchkrieg posted:Yes, I get it. You love Deadzone. :v I get where you're coming from and I definitely enjoyed Necromunda back in the day and if it came back and was popular I'd be first in line to play it again. But at the end of the day they're both systems for fighting small scale skirmishes in a terrain heavy environment and one is just better at that than the other. It's not so much a failing on Necromunda's end so much as it is that 20 years have gone by and game design has evolved a lot. And if Necromunda shines in the campaign, but the progression system is flawed, well, that sort of undermines its strongest point.
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Jan 18, 2017 14:03
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Isn't it really only 3 games? 40k, Necromunda, and Gorkamorka? I also wouldn't say that the rules are particularly good so much as they work fine on a skirmish level. They're still referencing lots of tables, comparing stats to arrive at target numbers, and melee resolution is haphazard. But since you're only using a handful of miniatures it's not such a problem. They were fine for their era, but if they were released as new today I think people would be pretty critical of them. That said, I'd still buy a rerelease of either Necromunda or Gorkamorka since I would know what I was getting myself into. I also wouldn't complain if they got someone competent to update the rules with modern design sensibilities.
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Jan 19, 2017 04:20
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It came out at a really weird time in miniature gaming history as well. HeroClix was huge and WizKids was releasing a new game every week. The market was positively flooded with half-baked ideas. If anything was going to survive it needed to either have a major license attached or be something special. A mediocre 40k game that lacked compatibility with other games in the line was never going to last.
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Feb 10, 2017 13:04
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Safety Factor posted:I mean, you could probably build a skaven team out of those mousling models, but they'd all die horribly what with being a skaven team and all. Women like swarms of things, right?
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Feb 14, 2017 06:25
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Safety Factor posted:What are you trying to say here? It's a Futurama quote. I just thought it was a good fit, meant nothing by it.
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Feb 14, 2017 06:55
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Safety Factor posted:
Not everyone can base their identity on TV quotes.
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Feb 14, 2017 08:15
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I had to look it up. Sorry.
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ineptmule posted:I'm a little concerned by the fact that he appears to have a bone-beard made of vertebrae. Either he looked very very strange in life or he stole somebody's spine in death and magically bonded it to his chin. Well here's what he looked like in life so you can compare. 
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Mar 9, 2017 18:40
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Angry Lobster posted:Nah, he got mutated/changed a lot in life due to all the warpstone he used. Also, he is motherfucking Nagash, he can do whatever he wants, like having a bonebeard, owning rad hats or bench-press a dragon. That was a joke, as in, this is what he looked like when the game was alive and well.
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Mar 10, 2017 07:08
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goatface posted:I think I preferred it when they were playing a sport that just happened to feature some people who took weapons onto the field, rather than a sport where everyone was carrying a punch-dagger and wearing inch thick half-plate. The punch daggers have been around forever though.
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Mar 11, 2017 07:35
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I already have Deadzone and this isn't Necromunda.
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Mar 15, 2017 10:23
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Zark the Damned posted:£15.50 per scout squad, £18 for the Orks = £49. This kind of math has always bugged me. It's only a good value if you want those miniatures, and I'd have zero interest in getting orks or marine scouts. Plus, if everyone buys it with the intent to sell, then eBay gets flooded with the sprues and the prices online drop.
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Mar 15, 2017 17:02
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It's like GW saw what Mantic was doing with Star Saga -> Deadzone -> Firefight -> Warpath and decided to just release a bunch of games that were vaguely connected regardless of if they actually organically built upon one another. Not-Necromunda with every faction playable in it and a bunch of modular terrain screams, "We want to be Deadzone."
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Mar 16, 2017 16:13
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JcDent posted:Deadzone, but with fluff people care about and promotional minis not painted by idiots. I seriously wish Mantic would fix this because their games are seriously way better than anything GW has ever done and their models are actually totally fine when painted by someone competent.
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Mar 16, 2017 16:26
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Pecks Dashingly
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Mar 18, 2017 03:54
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SteelMentor posted:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/03/23/warhammer-40000-news-from-adepticon/ "How can we take mechanics from Kings of War and make them worse."
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Mar 23, 2017 14:16
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Like I said, it's just concepts from Kings of War implemented in the worst ways possible. Unique movement stats are fine, except for when you can combine units with different movement values and some units have special movement and some units don't. Plus some units have unique movement rules on top of their movement stats. Great. Bespoke rules is just a bad implementation of every unit have universal special rules. Every unit in KoW is unique because only they have the specific combination of stats, special rules, and points that they have. But bespoke rules are more special because every unit gets its own text, regardless of how that will impact play or balance. Armor modifiers were eliminated for a reason, but now they're back because KoW (and Warpath...) does it in the form of reducing the Defense stat of defending units. When there are only two dice rolls being made, a to hit based on the attacker and a to wound based on the defender, the modifier against the defender's stat from the attacker's stat makes sense. When it's modifying the third roll, it's just slowing down gameplay. The attacker attacking first in melee is again something from Kings of War, but in KoW, only the charging unit even makes a roll. Melee in 40k is resolved from both directions, so having a lovely shooty unit attack an amazing melee unit shouldn't automatically resolve with the attacking unit going first.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:12
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No one said unit cards were a bad idea. No one said having all the rules in front of you was a bad thing. This is one of those weird defenses of AoS that I just cannot get my head around. "Yes, convenient things are convenient, but they do not improve upon bad design." See, in Kings of War for instance, I can have my entire army on two pages, complete with all the stats and special rules every unit has. And I don't mean the army I'm fielding, I mean the dozens of entries in my list. I just have to reference the USRs in the USR section of the book. And if I'm using EasyArmy, then it automatically prints just the USRs that the units I selected have with my list. So I don't really know what's functionally different between having a dozen unit cards and having a three page army roster. It's basically the same amount of paper, just in a slightly different format. And if it's all digital anyway, it's literally the same thing. As far as the differences between Elves and Humans go in KoW, saying Elves are Elite and humans are not is a simplification. Basically, every army in KoW has a single USR that applies to every unit in the army (additionally, each unit tends to have one or two more USRs that flesh out the combat role of the unit, so Elf Spears have Elite and Phalanx, and Elf Knights have Elite and Thunderous Charge). That's the army's defining characteristic. So Elves are Elite. Salamanders have Crushing Strength. Humans are Very Inspiring. And the list goes on. But it's not like the Elf list and the Human list are otherwise identical, with identical unit entries that are different only in their base USR, points, and maybe some stat tweaks. There are a hell of a lot of differences. The thing is, in KoW, minor stat differences are actually pretty significant. In AoS, 3+/4+ or 4+/3+ is mathematically the same. But since in KoW you actually reference your opponent's Defense value, having a high to hit stat versus a low one is pretty significant since that's deciding your baseline for attempts against the defender's Defense. Likewise, LD in Warhammer has never been that big of a deal. There's not a huge difference between 7 and 8. But since there's a dual Nerve stat in Kings of War, a unit that's 12/14 will be used in a different role than a unit that's 11/13. Elf units tend not just to be Elite and to have high Ranged to hit stats, but also have high nerve meaning it's tough to drive them off. But Dwarves are harder to rout still because in addition to high Nerve stats, they have a USR that allows them to ignore being Wavered. So individual human units end up being easier to defeat than either, but that's fine because humans tend to come in Hordes and not in Regiments and you take piles of them, so a single loss doesn't matter. Use a single Elf or Dwarf unit and the army is going to suffer for it. Last, the lists themselves have a huge variety. Elves have flying large cavalry. Humans have nothing of the sort. Humans have handgunners and mortars that can wreck units if they hit. Elves have archers and bolt throwers, but they deliver consistent damage that slowly wears units away. So the play style is really different. What spells wizards have access to, who armies can ally with, who their special characters are, what unit sizes they can field, all of these are different in every army. So no, the difference isn't just "Elite" versus "not Elite".
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Mar 24, 2017 03:06
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JcDent posted:Well, thanks for angrily explaining this thing that I wasn't aware off that was brought up as a major pro point for KoW (which... nobody plays in my tiny little country, because tiny little country). JcDent posted:Also, if the only difference between elves and humans in KoW is lack of elite, that sounds boring. If you don't want people explaining things to you, then don't criticize things you aren't familiar with. Saying that Elves are all Elite and humans aren't is still a fair way to compare the two armies and everyone knows exactly what that means because what Elite does never changes. And it is by no means the only distinction between the two, just the easiest thing to point out, so categorizing it as "boring" is a serious misinterpretation of Kings of War. It's not like the rules aren't free and you couldn't have gone and read them yourself.
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Mar 24, 2017 06:34
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Mar 25, 2017 08:46
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FrostyPox posted:Honestly I'm feeling a lot more positive about GW than I have in years. They've still got a way to go, but I'm actually considering playing at least Shadow War and Shadespire. Necromunda with all the 40K races sounds right up my alley and Shadespire looks like it's legitimately a good game. Shadow War carries a pricetag of $130 and isn't the real Necromunda reboot. I'll hold off until that comes out next year. It might be totally fine, but I'm flat out not interested at that price, plus the cost of GW models that I don't otherwise have a use for (there's no way in hell I'm using it as an entry point into 40k proper). Shadespire might be really good, but so long as its Sigmarines vs Bloodbloods I cannot possibly care.
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Mar 28, 2017 02:58
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nopantsjack posted:I'm confused as to whether shadow war is new necromunda or not. Halp please. Shadow Wars is being developed by GW proper. It is based on the old Necromunda rules. There is a separate Necromunda product in development by the new Specialist Games branch of Forge World. We don't have any information about that game at this time.
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Mar 29, 2017 10:44
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nopantsjack posted:Okay so it's not necromunda, it's more like a fancier kill team? "Fancier kill team" is right. It's somewhere between Necromunda and 2e 40k. If that's your bag, you'll like it. Though I'm giving it a pass because of the price. If they just rereleased the 90s Necromunda kit with the last physical edition of the rulebook, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I don't care that the models are out of date, they were perfectly fine. But I think we're going to get something more in line with how they handled Blood Bowl. The core set will be redesigned models that fans are divided on and the core rules will only have rules for the two gangs in the box. The other gangs along with the campaign rules will be sold separately. At launch, the only team you can buy separately will be a third faction that isn't in the core box and it will be months before you can even buy the teams from the core box on their own.
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Mar 29, 2017 11:27
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They are literally taking a step backwards in game design and calling it an advancement and people who like GW games are saying, "Wow, this is amazing!" I don't just mean in melee either. Being forced to shoot the closest target is total garbage because it takes away player agency and is an easy was to completely gently caress up your opponent's turn. Now, I'm also saying this as someone who has said repeatedly that they would buy classic Necromunda. I would, but I recognize the game for what it is and the era it was originally released in. I'm a pure nostalgia fan. There are loads of better games to play and I play them. But the 13 year old inside me wants those card platforms and templates.
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Mar 29, 2017 17:15
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Kaza42 posted:Are there any modern skirmish games that have a campaign structure kinda like Necromunda? I.E. persistent roster, customizable equipment, skills, optionally injuries and territory. I know of Frostgrave, but if there are any others I'd love to hear about them Scrappers out in April should do this, buy the rules are going to be dense. Deadzone basically already does this. It's just a bit lighter than NM.
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Mar 30, 2017 02:05
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I play Deadzone weekly. I assumed everyone else did too.
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Mar 30, 2017 14:46
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I'm in Bangkok and the games that were getting traction when I moved here were Saga and Bolt Action. But I showed up multiple times a week with a Kings of War army and now people actually play the drat game. Same thing with Deadzone. Be the change you want to be. Engage on social media. When you post photos of the stuff you're working on, people get interested and start asking questions.
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Mar 30, 2017 15:22
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Having a marketing department would go a huge way towards preventing this.
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Apr 2, 2017 01:40
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Liquid Communism posted:They can do a lot with specific campaign stuff for organized play, too. It's pretty minimal effort to do up a White Dwarf article sized booklet every six-eight months with new objectives, and base a couple around whatever new bit of terrain they want to sell. This is basically what Mantic does with Deadzone. They've released two campaign packs for the game that take players through a specific series of missions (which can also be played individually), add new units, characters, and items, and promote new pieces of terrain. They even added in AI zombies, which could be later expanded to other AI rules if they wanted. There really are limitless ways to promote a game aside from releasing a new box of miniatures every few weeks. The new miniatures only actually help the people who want to play a new faction and don't help invigorate the people who are happy with their team and want to find new ways to play. GW actually kind of went this way with the new Blood Bowl and having "seasons" of Deathzone. But GW gotta GW and they just sold rules that were traditionally in the main box as the first "expansion", immediately souring a lot of people on the new edition. This is why I've always been frustrated by the idea that GW has to invalidate or nerf old units because otherwise people would never buy new ones. People buy things that are cool regardless of if they need them and that never threatens to alienate your existing customers.
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Apr 6, 2017 07:01
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Phyresis posted:the balance pendulum is a tried-and-true way to get players to buy "new" poo poo, it's the status quo in the mobile space for a reason - your addicts will bitch and whine but they'll open their wallets at the same time. it's not the only way to grow your market but it's not surprising that it's easy to find examples of GW pulling this poo poo. Privateer Press and other lovely trad games companies do it all the time, hell PP is strangling their own baby at this rate Right, but addicts are going to buy this poo poo even when you blow up a universe and introduce reality balls. It's just frustrating that there are way better ways to get people to spend money and so few companies in the trad. games industry even attempt them.
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Apr 6, 2017 09:20
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I can't find on their webstore where these things are for sale. Is the deal over already?
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Apr 8, 2017 02:21
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MrFlibble posted:Nah - its only up in the future lands (New zealand to be specific). Should come up 10am saturday local time. Well that's an hour and a half for me, but I'm guessing I can't buy them from the US webstore until tonight then.
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Apr 8, 2017 02:28
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MrFlibble posted:They should be available for a week. I mean - they're made to order so even being stupidly popular shouldn't cause them to sell out like all the new Bloodbowl releases or SW:A. I'm pretty sure they've sold out on Made to Order stuff in the past in only a few hours.
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Apr 8, 2017 02:33
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Would anyone be interested in buying a Chaos Dwarf team with 2 bull centaurs and selling me the second?
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Apr 8, 2017 06:04
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MrFlibble posted:Just in case there was a miscommunication and this isn't you worried about the things selling out - you can buy bull centaurs separately. They're pretty expensive, either way (£15 each in the uk, the team without them is £32). Sorry, I missed the end of the sentence where you said you could buy things separately. My bad. Wow that is expensive.
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Apr 8, 2017 11:13
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