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People saying her life is going to suck are right, but not because of this. She's going to be in demand for appearances and likely offered book deals and other opportunities that most dishonorably discharged servicemen can't hope for. I hope Assange never leaves the embassy and continues to fall deeper in to madness. Seeing him inflict more punishment on himself than he'd face for rape in Sweden because he wants to play martyr is magical. JeffersonClay posted:He thinks the public interest leaks absolve the rest, and he won't come back until the justice system agrees. Snowden has never had any intention of coming back to the US to face charges. Nothing short of being offered a pardon is going to get him to agree to it as evidenced by his ridiculous demands that the justice system basically undermine itself for him. tekz posted:Stuff like this deserved to come out: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/special-reports/article24696685.html The US could barely give enough of a poo poo to charge soldiers who literally hunted non-combatants and harvested body parts as trophies and caused international outrage, so no. An incident with no names or witnesses and only known due to a mention in a cable isn't going to result in any prosecutions of the murderers in question.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:46
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DoctorWhat posted:You are a heartless, loathsome ghoul. Instability kills, and privileging your concept of justice over the hundreds of thousands that can die when society breaks down in another country could be equally heartless.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:48
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The Rosenbergs were literally spies for the Russian government and provided Nuclear Secrets. Manning released documents that showed the US government covered up the murder of innocent civilians in Iraq.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:50
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It's just stupid to compare the two.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:50
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The Iron Rose posted:Her leaks literally caused a financial crisis in Iceland. There's a pretty big loving difference between releasing evidence of illegal behaviour and dumping hundreds of thousands of diplomatic cables that caused a shitton of problems with our allies. Oh I thought you were talking about those lovely liberals on Twitter whining about her release because "DURR SHE'S A TRAITOR" Turns out the lovely liberal was you all along.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:51
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I disagree with this.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:52
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Hollismason posted:The Rosenbergs were literally spies for the Russian government and provided Nuclear Secrets. Manning released documents that showed the US government covered up the murder of innocent civilians in Iraq. ...and a bunch of diplomatic leaks which had nothing to do with those crimes and may have contributed to a whole lot of deaths in the Middle East. It wasn't deliberate if that was the consequence, but that's why whistleblowers should be careful to leak only what they think the immoral behavior is and not to take a shotgun approach that reveals all sorts of unrelated behavior by many other actors.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:52
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Sinteres posted:Instability kills, and privileging your concept of justice over the hundreds of thousands that can die when society breaks down in another country could be equally heartless. You could be mad at the politicians doing the hosed up and shady poo poo that gets uncovered but instead you're mad at the people who uncovered it, way to be an enabler
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Jan 18, 2017 01:52
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Evil Fluffy posted:People saying her life is going to suck are right, but not because of this. She's going to be in demand for appearances and likely offered book deals and other opportunities that most dishonorably discharged servicemen can't hope for. Theoretically she could be blocked by the federal son of sam statute if Trump's DOJ were to actually show that someone died/was harmed because of the leaks
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Jan 18, 2017 01:54
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rscott posted:You could be mad at the politicians doing the hosed up and shady poo poo that gets uncovered but instead you're mad at the people who uncovered it, way to be an enabler You're right, every private in the military should be granted the authority to unleash Pandora's Box on the world if their informed moral judgment says they should do so.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:54
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rscott posted:You could be mad at the politicians doing the hosed up and shady poo poo that gets uncovered but instead you're mad at the people who uncovered it, way to be an enabler lol do you not remember how badly the cables hosed over our relationship with the Pakistan? like the actual crimes, sure. Literally hundreds of thousands of cables? Fuuuuuck no.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:54
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Cat Army 
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Like seriously that is the same bullshit justification police use not to blow the whistle on their peers' abuses
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Jan 18, 2017 01:55
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Hollismason posted:The Rosenbergs were literally spies for the Russian government and provided Nuclear Secrets. Manning released documents that showed the US government covered up the murder of innocent civilians in Iraq. She did right in releasing some of it. Releasing the diplomatic cables was a dick move.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:56
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Bates posted:She did right in releasing some of it. Releasing the diplomatic cables was a dick move. In retrospect, I think we can all agree that giving all that info to the autistic Australian rapist was a mistake.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:58
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rscott posted:Like seriously that is the same bullshit justification police use not to blow the whistle on their peers' abuses The actual whistleblowing was fine. All the unrelated poo poo was overkill and she deserves her punishment for that.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:59
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Guy Goodbody posted:In retrospect, I think we can all agree that giving all that info to the autistic Australian rapist was a mistake. Yeah if there was any error in judgment it was trusting Assange over quite possibly anyone else
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Jan 18, 2017 02:00
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rscott posted:Like seriously that is the same bullshit justification police use not to blow the whistle on their peers' abuses Yeah so maybe 1% of the poo poo she released could be justified as "whistleblowing"
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Jan 18, 2017 02:06
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The Iron Rose posted:lol do you not remember how badly the cables hosed over our relationship with the Pakistan? maybe the contents of the cables were the Actual Problem and international relationships founded on deceit are inherently unstable
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Jan 18, 2017 02:08
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Bates posted:She did right in releasing some of it. Releasing the diplomatic cables was a dick move. PVT Manning released that information in a childish hissy fit. Nothing admirable about it.
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Jan 18, 2017 02:09
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Sinteres posted:You're right, every private in the military should be granted the authority to unleash Pandora's Box on the world if their informed moral judgment says they should do so. Alternatively we can continue to encourage a culture of secrecy and obedience that lets the occasional war crime get swept under the table. Its a complex and nuanced topic. Manning was definitely overbroad in her release of information, but she also brought some real poo poo to light that needed to be seen. I think releasing her is the right thing to do, especially when the circumstances of her imprisonment are taken into account. I also think its a bit spineless that Obama waited until it wasn't going to be his problem anymore to release her, but then I really haven't come to expect much else from him.
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Jan 18, 2017 02:14
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Guy Goodbody posted:Looks like Assange might actually do it, the madman He knows fellow Russian asset Trump won't do anything to him.
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Jan 18, 2017 02:20
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DoctorWhat posted:maybe the contents of the cables were the Actual Problem and international relationships founded on deceit are inherently unstable Not her judgement to make. Weird naive philosophy about international relations doesn't turn all our diplomatic efforts into crimes.
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Jan 18, 2017 02:26
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The Iron Rose posted:lol do you not remember how badly the cables hosed over our relationship with the Pakistan? Just lol at all of the people calling her a war criminal. Pakistan is a lovely ally anyway. Somebody fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 18, 2017 02:29
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TinTower posted:It doesn't matter. As soon as Assange steps outside of the embassy, he'll be arrested by the Metropolitan Police and put on the next flight to Stockholm. I thought they stopped doing that as it was costing millions of quid for some guys to stand around doing nothing? But yeah I don't really understand the Assange stuff with this, the US haven't even asked for him officially have they? I'm pretty well informed on all this. I'd be interested in Obama explaining his feelings/thoughts on this at some point in the future (but maybe before Trumpocalypse) as it seems a more sort of humanitarian reprieve than an acknowledgement that what Manning did was justified at all.
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Jan 18, 2017 02:31
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Sucks that she has to wait until May 17th to get out.
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Jan 18, 2017 02:33
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NotJustANumber99 posted:I thought they stopped doing that as it was costing millions of quid for some guys to stand around doing nothing? But yeah I don't really understand the Assange stuff with this, the US haven't even asked for him officially have they? I'm pretty well informed on all this. Assange is a clinical narcissist. Even so, there's an arrest warrant out for Assange and the Met are obliged to execute it and follow on actionable intelligence.
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Jan 18, 2017 02:37
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nobody gives a gently caress assange can stay in his little hole
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Jan 18, 2017 02:53
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Not a Step posted:Well, better late then never, but still kind of cowardly for Obama to wait until the end of his term when the political fallout isn't his problem anymore. What kept him from commuting Chelsea's sentence a year ago? It would have been obnoxiously unjust to fail to punish her at all, or for it to be some trifling punishment.
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Jan 18, 2017 03:20
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Hollismason posted:The Rosenbergs were literally spies for the Russian government and provided Nuclear Secrets. Manning released documents that showed the US government covered up the murder of innocent civilians in Iraq. I agree edward snowden should suffer the same fate as those miscreants yes.
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Jan 18, 2017 03:23
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TinTower posted:Assange is a clinical narcissist. Sure, but once they do nab him on the way to wherever all they will do is ship him off to Sweden. I guess the first part of your post details why he is piping up. Although I suppose maybe he is thinking a glorious and heroic battle against the mighty yet unjust and evil USA under trump in a courtroom where he can riff on whatever he wants is preferable to a mundane and popularly unpalatable defence against a scandinavian rape.
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Jan 18, 2017 03:24
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Sinteres posted:The actual whistleblowing was fine. All the unrelated poo poo was overkill and she deserves her punishment for that. And...she got it? Can we now argue over whether X months in solitary is a just punishment for her crime? Or we could keep doing whatever it is we're currently doing.
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Jan 18, 2017 03:37
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Sinteres posted:Instability kills, and privileging your concept of justice over the hundreds of thousands that can die when society breaks down in another country could be equally heartless. holy poo poo HOW MANy people died in Iceland?!
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Jan 18, 2017 03:42
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hakimashou posted:It would have been obnoxiously unjust to fail to punish her at all, or for it to be some trifling punishment. As I've mentioned before, it just seems super convenient that the optimal amount of punishment for Chelsea Manning just *happened* to be right after Obama leaves office and its somebody else's problem. Why not months ago when it was apparent the prison system was loving her over in regards to needed medical assistance and excessive solitary confinement? Did she really just need that extra few months of punishment?
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Jan 18, 2017 03:42
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mdemone posted:And...she got it? Can we now argue over whether X months in solitary is a just punishment for her crime? She got a very small fraction of it in terms of the length of her sentence. I don't think solitary confinement is humane, and if commutation was necessary to end that, so be it, but if it were purely a matter of time served I'd oppose it.
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Jan 18, 2017 03:42
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Sinteres posted:She got a very small fraction of it in terms of the length of her sentence. I don't think solitary confinement is humane, and if commutation was necessary to end that, so be it, but if it were purely a matter of time served I'd oppose it. I believe her earliest eligibility for parole with maximum credits for good conduct would have been 2021, so she's getting four years at a minimum commuted off her sentence, which is great and all, but given the poo poo she's unfairly dealt with in prison she should have been let out much earlier. Especially given the bullshit around her transition.
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Jan 18, 2017 03:46
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Not a Step posted:As I've mentioned before, it just seems super convenient that the optimal amount of punishment for Chelsea Manning just *happened* to be right after Obama leaves office and its somebody else's problem. Why not months ago when it was apparent the prison system was loving her over in regards to needed medical assistance and excessive solitary confinement? Did she really just need that extra few months of punishment? Apparently so, since she still has to serve four more months.
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Jan 18, 2017 04:32
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Main Paineframe posted:Apparently so, since she still has to serve four more months. Most pardons and commutations are not immediate. At the very least you have to give the person a chance to find a place to live and such.
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Jan 18, 2017 04:40
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Not a Step posted:As I've mentioned before, it just seems super convenient that the optimal amount of punishment for Chelsea Manning just *happened* to be right after Obama leaves office and its somebody else's problem. Why not months ago when it was apparent the prison system was loving her over in regards to needed medical assistance and excessive solitary confinement? Did she really just need that extra few months of punishment? She was lucky to escape the death penalty.
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Jan 18, 2017 05:02
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hakimashou posted:She was lucky to escape the death penalty. Im really more grousing at the 'the amount of time she served was perfectly correct and in no way reflected political expediency on Obama's part' crowd. If your stance is 'probably merited the death penalty' then I'll happily defend her commutation to May. Like, don't get me wrong here, my position is her commutation is deserved, both because I disagree with the original sentence (national intelligence needs a system for whistleblowers that isn't 'report it up the chain') and because I feel the Feds royally hosed up her imprisonment, but I would have preferred it to have been several months earlier at least.
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Jan 18, 2017 05:10
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the whole concept of military court is an inhumane abomination
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Jan 18, 2017 05:13
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