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My problem with the wizard changes is it's very hard to balance a lot of cool wizard spells per-encounter. Like Slicken, for example: I can cast a spell that knocks every enemy on their rear end four times an encounter, every encounter? If you do that in PE1 it trivializes most fights (give it a try sometime!). So how does that spell work in the new system? I'm not so concerned for other caster classes because they can do other things in addition to casting, Druids (and to a lesser extent Priests) are capable melee fighters and both have a wide array of non-spell abilities. Wizards, on the other hand, produce cool effects by casting spells, that's their entire deal, so changes to spellcasting hit Wizards much harder. One solution is that empowered wizard spells can have additional effects, for example slicken could normally be 'causes [slow movement, for ex.]' and the empowered version is 'causes [slow movement] and trips'. I'd be down for that, but that requires a lot more effort then just increasing damage or debuff duration for each spell and I guess I'm just traumatized by games like Marvel: Heroes (to pick a current example) who always implement the solution that takes the least amount of effort. "Alright, we've changed how basically everything in the game works, do we extensively rework this character to be fun and engaging in the new system, or... *eyes drift over to big red button labeled This Character Is Bad And Not Fun Now" I'm not despairing or anything, because if there is one company I trust to get this right it's Obsidian (or more specifically JSawyer), I'm just really hoping that the Empower system is more then 'does what the ability does already, but slightly better'. The more flexibility it gives, the better Wizards will be. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Feb 3, 2017 |
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Feb 3, 2017 01:53
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Zore posted:I'm going to guess one of the balancing mechanisms is cutting the number of spells per level to 1 or 2 per encounter instead of 4+. Yeah, this hadn't occurred to me but this is also a good idea, especially the last bit.
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Feb 3, 2017 02:06
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I just realized something that's going to change how I plan mutliclasses a lot - are HP and defenses based on your power levels, or strict class levels? I was ASSUMING the former in my wild fantasies, so that for ex. a Wizard could take 1 level in Fighter early on and get a strong boost to survivability, eventually equal to four levels of fighter health and defenses; if it's the other way around and multiclassing only powers up Fighter ABILITIES to 4 (which this Wizard may not take any of) and only gives 1 level of HP and defenses then that's a pretty bad tradeoff. Edit: The more that I think about it, if it's strictly about being able to grab abilities from other classes then any build other then even levels in two classes is going to suck, because the abilities you grab aren't worth anything if the source that determines their power is really weak. At which point, why even let you choose how many levels to put into one or the other, why not just let you convert into a 75/75 hybrid of both? Basically what I'm saying is I don't see the advantage of doing it the current way unless a Wizard 17/ Fighter (1, but effectively) 4 or whatever has the combined HP and Defenses of a level 17 Wizard and a level 4 Fighter. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Feb 3, 2017 |
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Feb 3, 2017 08:43
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Ginette Reno posted:Also I'd argue the Gods are compelled to do what they do by their own natures. They're essentially programmed constructs so if you create the God of Assholes in the Poe universe it's going to act like an rear end in a top hat. Do the Gods even have free will in the Poe universe? Not so sure they do. They're compelled to adhere to their portfolios which would limit their freedom. Counterpoint: Skaen. He acts in direct opposition to his portfolio in the endgame. "Hey, you know what's cooler then rebelling? Selling out to The Man!" I mean, that's just shoddy craftsmanship on the Engwithans part. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 10:54 on Feb 10, 2017 |
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Feb 10, 2017 10:52
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CottonWolf posted:I'm not sure that's true. It seems his domain is pathological backstabbing and collapsing the existing order. Woedica's currently the oppressed and downtrodden, it makes perfect sense that he'd side with her in the endgame to bring down the gods that are currently on top. I imagine if Woedica's reempowered he'll be working against her in 2 because she's now become the oppressing power. I was under the impression that Skaen's dominion is VERY SPECIFICALLY rebellion. Like, I'm aware he doesn't play that part AT ALL and just acts like a generic evil god (which is a HUGE waste of a character IMHO, but I digress), but all the religious texts about him seem to revolve around slaves rebelling - and that's my point, his stated domain doesn't match up with how he acts in any meaningful way, meaning the gods aren't strictly bound by what their domains are. Edit: VV okay, just didn't read enough lore. Cool! Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Feb 10, 2017 |
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Feb 10, 2017 11:21
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I finally finished The Ultimate, just for those sweet Berath's Blessing points. I do not recommend it.
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Feb 12, 2017 23:21
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Samuel Clemens posted:I seriously doubt the Berath's Blessing mechanic is going to rely on Steam achievements, if only because that wouldn't work at all with the GOG version. More likely, it'll be handled like the bonus perks in Alpha Protocol where the game internally keeps track of your exploits. The only thing that really interests me about Berath's Blessing is being able to bring an item over from PoE1 to PoE2. I wouldn't even be using it for some pimped-out weapon or whatever, I just want a cool flavorful piece of equipment to represent my character's previous journey. Okay, mainly I just want to import Viettro's Formal Footwear, because that item rocks. Free booze, fine conversation and mad dancing skills; what else do you even need? Edit: Upon rereading the section on Berath's Blessing, it does look like it only applies to replays of PoE2, not save imports. gently caress. I just wanted to be D&D Cinderella, is that too much to ask? That also means I did The Ultimate for no reason. Double gently caress. I guess I SHOULD feel proud, but in reality I just feel like I pulled out several of my teeth for funsies. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Feb 13, 2017 |
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Feb 13, 2017 04:32
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Under the vegetable posted:Very little of this seems to be true. I haven't played enough to comment on the combat balance issues, but the complaint about having to build your character knowing IN ADVANCE what decisions you are and aren't going to make seems spot-on to me. For example, the first character I made was killed in I think the... third? conversation he had; a guy on the street asked him to buy something, and when I said yes it teleported me to a house where I was boxed in by two guys and murdered. The dialogue didn't hint in any way that something was up, or even that I'd be teleported somewhere else after saying yes, it was just "Hey I'm in a bad spot, can you help me out and buy something Y/N?" and selecting Y got me killed with no warning. So it isn't even a matter of avoiding combat options, you straight-up have to know in advance what dialogue options to pick in order to not die if your character isn't geared towards fighting. I understand that some people find that style of game fun but for me it just played like one of those bad CYOAs where decisions just arbitrarily kill you and the 'fun' is in finding the one path that doesn't lead to instadeath.
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Feb 13, 2017 06:48
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Ugh, I hope it's actually something good or compelling, and not romances or multiplayer. Edit: I mean, romances I can just ignore I guess, but multiplayer seems like the kind of thing that's going to significantly increase dev time. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Feb 14, 2017 |
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Feb 14, 2017 05:37
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I'm not really happy about this change, all it's really going to do is massively incentivize people to use "best of" weapons... which, aside from the implements, are all medium or slow-speed. Fast weapons get hosed over EVEN WORSE in the new system, because why would you pour huge amounts of resources into enchanting something that's going to be completely ineffective against multiple enemy types? I already ran into this problem during my Ultimate run, where I had to rule out any weapon that only deals crush damage because of the Alpine Dragon, but that's just one optional boss (and the game just hands you Abydon's Hammer anyway). This takes that mentality and applies it to the whole loving game. "Oh, skeletons. Well, I use ranged weapons (which are ALL pierce), so, uhh... good luck, guys! I'll just be waiting over here." Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 22:15
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Harrow posted:There's no reason to assume this will stay true in PoE2. Even if you assume that's true, it doesn't change the fact that single-damage-type weapons get massively screwed over under the new system. Am I going to use my irreplaceable Kraken Eye to upgrade a dagger, which gets +5 accuracy but is largely useless against one of the endgame bosses, or a sword which is useful 99% of the time? VV Edit: So wait, do you feel 'slight bonus to accuracy' for ex. is advantageous enough to offset 'useless against several types of enemies'? If so then I guess we're very different people 
Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 22:43
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Basic Chunnel posted:Using a slightly less munchkiny blunt weapon for an endgame boss is probably not going to cripple you. ... So, have you done The Ultimate? I mean if not that's honestly a good thing, but it DOES kind of make it bizarre for you to make statements like "So you have to use a less-good weapon. What's the worst that could happen?" VVEdit: I just don't see why the malus has to be so extreme. If it's to encourage people to switch weapons then I think it's just going to put people off single-damage-type weapons instead, which thoroughly defeats the purpose of trying to encourage people to use new stuff. It just feels like per-rest abilities all over again, where the goal (which was noble in purpose) was to get people not to use their best abilities every fight, but rather then learning to play the way the devs wanted lots of players refused to adapt and just had a bad time... which is why they took it out. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 23:15
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Mac Con posted:I think it's kind of weird to have a more simulationist system like damage types vs. armor types in the first place then throw a super gamey system like the damage breakpoints on top of it, with the only benefit apparent to me being the introduction of a choice that boils down to "do you want to do 30% damage to an enemy or 100-130%? ", which obviously isn't an interesting decision and forces what amounts to busy work to switch weapons. I guess it makes you decide whether to use your extra weapon set for a ranged weapon or another melee for versatility if they don't change how that works. Not to mention the fact that the monk's fists only deal crush damage, so they'll be utter garbage against anything with high crush armor.
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Feb 17, 2017 00:59
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idonotlikepeas posted:I expect all of the equipment to be gone, though, maybe with a BG2-style carryover of one or two interesting items. More then anything this is what I'm hoping for. I don't want some uber-weapon or anything, just a cool piece of equipment to symbolize my previous journey. Still, with equipment getting reworked that seems less likely now 
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Feb 19, 2017 06:27
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Dolash posted:But for example, in most D&D-based games you'd put your rogue in leather armor to protect them a bit in melee while preserving as much of their dexterity bonus to armor/attack as possible, with some heavy-handed hints like armor proficiency to nudge you in that direction. Here though, what does the marginal tradeoff of +5% recovery speed but -1DR for Hide or -5% recovery speed but +1DR for Scale really mean in terms of performance? Even using leather as a starting point is just an intuition, and with so much information available it feels like you could recalibrate the entire party's armor and weapon choices for every encounter, dungeon and party composition like a non-linear dynamic programming problem. Sounds exhausting. Yeah Brig is just bad for some reason, either go full plate for maximum tank or use scale or lower for balance.
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Feb 22, 2017 04:24
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rope kid posted:My first act as mayor is to kill the whole lot of you and burn your town to cinders. Cheers. Well, he's got my vote. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Feb 22, 2017 |
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Feb 22, 2017 22:27
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Put in my pledge at the last possible minute, thank god I remembered. I'm pretty bummed that we probably won't make the $4.75mil goal, that really sounds cool (and I won't mind the pseudo-animancer being a full companion either), but really happy we've gotten so far. Now we just have to wait like a year, or probably more. That... that'll be real easy... 
Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Feb 25, 2017 |
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Feb 25, 2017 00:58
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Pwnstar posted:The new Mass Effect better have one of those roly poly aliens as a squadmate that is played by George from Seinfeld. Didn't you hear? They ditched all of the cool aliens (that don't use the standard skeleton) in favor of yet more generic "Human but with slight differences" assholes.
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Feb 28, 2017 04:39
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Furism posted:Sorry, please explain how you need to "grow an intuitive" feeling for estimating how long 5 seconds (with an actual countdown being shown to you when you hover your mouse) is because I don't get it. A second is a second, no matter how long you pause your game. Just to give one example, Pillars has multiple combat speeds. In turn-based a turn is a turn is a turn, whereas in RTWP 5 seconds on slow is very different from 5 seconds on fast.
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Jun 11, 2017 10:21
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Entropy238 posted:PoE2 is going to be rad as gently caress, and, not without certain reservations about particular mechanics (such as the new penetration system), I'm looking forward to it like mad. I wouldn't be too worried about this. The situation seems similar to Slag in Borderlands 2 Ultimate Mode ("People aren't using this mechanic we worked really hard on, let's rebalance the game to 'encourage' its use" "It turns out people weren't using it because they didn't like it, and now that we've made it mandatory those people are miserable"), but the key difference here is that Obsidian are actually good game designers and will probably make tweaks until they reach a point most players are happy with, rather then Gearbox's petulant "Well gently caress them, our weapon-switching mechanic is objectively fun and good, if they don't like it they don't deserve to enjoy our game" bullshit. And if nothing else, it'll be a lot easier to mod out, just change a single number value from -70% to -30% or whatever and you're back to PoE1's 'optional but encouraged' state. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Jul 18, 2017 |
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Jul 18, 2017 04:15
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ProfessorCirno posted:Focusing on and only on druid spells, and not even glancing at their other mechanic which can turn them into the highest DPS in the game with ease, seems...not entirely wise. Yeah, if you play Druids like Wizards they're super boring, but that's because they aren't Wizards, they're loving werewolves that can also cast spells. They're the strongest class in the game because they combine savage DPS with fair amounts of utility AND some strong CC AND healing to boot. Druid/splash of Barbarian is definitely going to be my first PoE2 char, assuming they don't get nerfed too bad VV: It's a jack-of-all-trades class that's ALSO a strong contender for the best in a major category (DPS, rivaled only situationally by Barbs and Rogues, who specialize in damage). Like it's not overwhelming but it's definitely noticeable from where I stand. At very least it's the best/most fun to play solo (how I've played most of my recent games, which is probably coloring my perception). Still, PoE achieves the only balance milestone I care about : that none of the classes suck or are trap options. I personally don't like the way Chanters or Priests play but they're solid mechanically and good additions to any team. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Jul 28, 2017 |
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Jul 28, 2017 08:35
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Vargs posted:There is a "good" path, if that's the only thing holding you back. Yeah, the lack of enemy diversity makes combat a huge chore after a while, but my main problem is that the game seems weirdly reluctant to embrace it's own premise. To name one example, I really wanted to play Fantasy Judge Dredd but 90% of the game is just generic adventurer poo poo; DA:I incidentally included judging prisoners and yet it contains just about as much of it as Tyranny, a game where that is specifically your job. Also not a big fan of being forced to betray Kyros, like I get why from a plot perspective but it just seems really bizarre that they chose to write the game in such a way that it was the only option. There are some upcoming DLCs that are supposed to fix some of this, but frankly I'm pretty strongly doubtful how much of an impact they'll make; I feel the structure of the plot is more of a problem then a lack of content and I don't think the current writing staff understand what makes the setting actually appealing to me.
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Aug 28, 2017 07:21
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rope kid posted:Anyway, for a belated "real" response to what we're doing with rogues, we're emphasizing their mobility/invisibility tricks much more. Instead of choosing between Crippling and Blinding Strike at 1st level, rogues pick between Crippling Strike and Escape. Escape grants a large (but brief) Deflection boost after activation and upgrades into other abilities that turn the rogue invisible (Shadowing Beyond), allow the next attack to paralyze (Shadow Step), and other goodies. Backstab is much more potent and can be triggered in combat from invisibility. A high level rogue can repeatedly Escape around the battlefield, gaining brief spikes of huge Deflection while turning invisible and/or gaining the Swift (+5 Dex) inspiration. Sounds pretty good, my only worry in that case would be surviveability vs non-Deflection attacks. I'd be great if there was a rogue feat or whatever that adds the Deflection bonus to Reflex as well, dodging dragon's breath is something thief/rogue characters have traditionally been able to do in RPGs but in PoE1 I found breath attacks tended to splat them just as badly as Priests and whatnot. Edit: Looking at the wiki they also have Evasion, so that might be overkill? Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 04:11
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Okay, this all looks amazing! Super loving pumped! So, when does the game come out again? ...  CommissarMega posted:But seriously, if you're able to just make it editable, that'd be great. That way, people who don't mind/think the current names are cool and good don't have to live with my conviction that Barb/Ciphers should be called Sephiroths. Yes, this please!
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Sep 21, 2017 01:26
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basic hitler posted:Why is everyone excited for multiclassing? Man, being able to mix kits might be fun, but getting locked out of end-tier abilities sucks hard. It's a cool mechanic, i might make a mercenary to screw around with it, but I'm definitely sticking with pure classes mostly. Yeah, even though this was the solution I advocated for I'm having more and more doubts about it. Those high level spells are going to be insanely difficult to balance, if they're really good I can't really see myself using multiclasses, despite how excited I am for the whole system.
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Sep 27, 2017 04:29
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Basic Chunnel posted:The whole point of this discussion is that it's highly debatable that RPGs are better off with 3+ minigames when the only two that people tend to recognize as play are conversant and combat minigames. Inventory tetris / merchant chaff dumping by and large does not add much to a game, as evidenced by PoE. Once again I direct you toward ME2, which had essentially no inventory at all and a very limited power progression (helped in large part by the lack of power variation that inventory management would introduce). The result was a pure distillation of cinematic plot-focused CRPG. It was drat near fat free Counterpoint: I hated this about ME2/3 and if POE2 went this approach I'd almost certainly give it a miss. "So you're a axe guy, huh? Well, here's your basic axe that you'll be using for the next 8 hours! Then you'll get an axe that swings slightly faster! I've heard that there might even be a third axe hidden somewhere in the endgame! Don't worry, if you get bored you can also switch to throwing axes, although there's only one good throwing axe in the game and you don't get it until 2/3 the way through the plot, and until then they're useless loving garbage. Have fun!"
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Nov 1, 2017 02:00
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rope kid posted:The difference between No Pen and Pen is enormous. A Penetrating attack does 100% of the listed damage. A No Pen attack does 30% of the listed damage. Full Pen (double the Armor Rating) is 130%, so there's a little bonus for having overwhelmingly high Pen. Any chance this is something that'll be easy to mod? Obviously I'll have to play the game before I know for sure, but as someone who doesn't like weapon switching and probably isn't ever going to use it, this sounds loving miserable. "Oh, a dungeon full of skeletons, and I use a rapier? Guess I'm just kind of useless for this whole area!"
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Nov 10, 2017 20:52
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- As much as I was looking forward to the Beta, I'm having a hard time having fun with it, and the new armor system is the main reason why. Obviously we're getting a distorted view of it considering characters are under-geared and because this is a beta, but as implemented it just seems more like a chore then anything fun or interesting. I don't mind when specific creatures have armor that's hard to penetrate (beetles, for ex.) but when every enemy has concrete skin it just feels annoying, not to mention super videogame-y ('Your sword is arbitrarily not strong enough to penetrate the skin of this totally unarmored fishman!'). It kind of reminds me of Dragon Age 2; when one specific enemy type (ghosts, for ex.) can call in reinforcements that appear behind your front lines and directly attack your squishy casters, thats a cool and flavorful ability that forces you to change up your tactics in fun ways, but when every enemy type has reinforcements that appear out of nowhere it not only makes combat irritating but cheapens what could have been a cool gimmick. I'd strongly prefer a more granular, organic system (like PoE1) over this all-or-nothing business, but barring a complete redesign I hope the final system at least gets some serious tweaks. - I was super concerned about the new cast times but they're generally alright, Chanter's summons are the only ones that like they should be shortened, and then only a little (this wasn't a Beckoner, don't know how that would have changed things). I actually like the change overall, it will help balance spells of the same level (Shadowflame vs anything else, for ex), and certain enemies being smart enough to disrupt them was a cool touch. Casters generally have a good play-feel, aside from the ever-present penetration issues. - Okay, I love Druids and how borderline-OP they are in general but the Shifter is loving bananas. It's upside is game-changing and it's downside is.. how you should play the class to begin with. I almost feel like they shouldn't be able to cast spells at all, or at least have spells per fight reduced? The other subclasses I played (Soul Blade and Shattered Pillar) had cool gimmicks and didn't feel overpowered, Shifter was the only one where I felt like it was a straight upgrade. - Oh god I'm suggesting something get nerfed, I've become everything I've ever hated - Game looks gorgeous, I especially like the new character models. Enemy variety is also very good, I'm loving some of these new designs. Not much to say here, keep up the good work! - I'm sad the Raider background got removed (temporarily? permanently for story reasons?), if only because that was the one I picked for my first character. I like that there's a (ex-)priest background for people who aren't Priests, I wish that had been in the first game. Edit: PurplieNurplie posted:Shifted Druid 'weapons' have 9 pen, and Monk fists get 7 or 8 currently, just to add to that list. That would certainly explain why Druids in general felt OP, I imagine as the armor system gets adjusted this will be less of an overwhelming benefit. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Nov 17, 2017 |
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Nov 17, 2017 23:39
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:It's interesting to me how much resistance there is to the affliction system, because D:OS2 actually features a similar (and very poorly tutorialized) system too. I think it works much better in a proper turn-based game, without pre-buffing you only get a very small window in which to apply protections before combat becomes pretty chaotic. I mean I'm certainly happy that it's in the game but I don't see myself using it very much outside of stuff like Arcane Veil.
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Nov 19, 2017 11:46
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Akong posted:I like the penetration system and the more active micro management it requires. I think it's fun. But it seems to me, that for the Endurance/Health system you are catering to people who don't bother to even try to understand a system that is, quite frankly, very easy to understand. Yet for the Penetration system you are making it significantly less intuitive. Would the people who didn't bother to learn the Endurance/Health system in the first game bother to learn the penetration system, or will they just feel frustrated when they end up doing no damage? So far, I haven't seen any streamers who managed their penetrations without me telling them about it, which is a problem when it is so crucial right now. I guess this just about sums me up, I hate micro-managing my equipment. I beat PoE1 PotD without ever really using the weapon-switching mechanic or even equipping secondary weapons except for the Ice Elementals/Alpine Dragon. I just like finding a cool weapon and being able to equip it on someone without having to worry about it being near-totally ineffective against a broad swath of enemies. Maybe the old system was 'mushy' but that feels significantly better then the current system where 5-pen weapons feel to me like lovely trap options. Like yeah, if I want to use swords I could hit them with a mace modal or a spell that increases penetration... or I could just use a weapon type that just works all the time and doesn't require me to debuff an enemy before I can meaningfully damage them. A weapon working consistently seems to me like a much better benefit then +critical damage or whatever. Edit: Of course, I also liked PoE1's trash mobs (as long as they didn't have annoying abilities like the Sirens) and per-rest abilities so I'm kinda getting the feeling I'm just not this game's target audience.
Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 00:53
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rope kid posted:I think making it slide would likely make it harder to learn because it would return to mushy town where it can kinda sorta be ignored as long as you can pump out enough damage. A 70% reduction damage is severe enough to not ignore. Is 50%? Is 30%? 10%? This is me 100%. I hear and really, truly respect that some people like the new system - most of the people in this thread have better, smarter opinions on game design then I do - but I personally just hate having to deal with it. For me, the fact that you could basically ignore the old system if you didn't care about being super optimal was a feature, not a bug.
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Nov 20, 2017 01:20
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Can someone explain to me why you would pick a low-pen weapon? Because even if you fiddle with the enemy armor values, as long as one point of pen makes the difference between 100% and 30% or 130% that's never going to seem like a good idea to me. Sure, you can cast Expose Vulnerability or what-have-you, but a) the time and spell slot used to cast that could be used to cast something else and b) Expose Vulnerability can miss or expire, at which point you're back to being useless. True, casting Expose benefits your entire party, but that's true whether your weapon is low-pen or high-pen; the difference is that for high-pen weapons it's an optional strategy to increase your damage, whereas with low-pen it's basically mandatory if you want to deal any reasonable amount of damage. What theoretical benefit could low-pen weapons provide to make up for the fact that they're inherently unreliable? Sabers deal +20% damage to some enemies... and -50% to others. Am I the only one that thinks that's a really bad tradeoff? I mean, unless enemies with even moderate armor are vanishingly rare, and in which case why even have the system?
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Nov 20, 2017 20:40
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Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:there are tons of armor values. very rarely will you find an enemy that has high defenses for pierce blunt fire frost etc all at the same time Same question though: Why would I want to have two low-pen weapons and have to switch between them when I can have one high-pen one that's actually reliable and doesn't require switching?
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Nov 20, 2017 20:56
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Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:because it won't be high pen against everything plus ideally low pen weapons will deal more damage to compensate. You'll be high and mighty with your 9 pen spear which is perfectly fine for most encounters, until you go up against an enemy with high pierce defense, which is the 10% of the time you switch Okay, but if I need an offhand weapon I would still pick a high-pen one, because what if the enemy I'm fighting has high pierce resist but also moderate crush resist? Not to argue in a circle here, but why would I pick a low-pen weapon over a high-pen one, for either slot? Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 21:14
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Zore posted:Different modals or riders presumably. Not in the beta, but if they have different actives like buffs or debuffs they can inflict that could matter a lot. But that doesn't remotely seem worth the cost of potentially not being able to damage an enemy. For example, the enemy has 14 Pierce armor or whatever and my Exceptional Estoc can't properly damage him, so I switch to my Exceptional Club... except he has 8 Crush armor, so it's useless too. So then I have to debuff him, which is a pretty big opportunity cost for my wizard or whoever, that isn't guaranteed to work... or I could just use a Mace instead, which is much more likely to be able to actually damage enemies that my main-hand can't. Samuel Clemens posted:Because it seems far more efficient to go with one high Pen/low damage and one low Pen/high damage weapon than two high Pen/low damage ones. A 'high-damage' low-pen weapon isn't high damage if it doesn't penetrate. Like I said in my post above, the saber does %20 extra damage to some enemies, and %50 less when it can't penetrate. The magic number in the Beta seems to be 8 pen, which means you need a Superior Sabre to beat the typical enemies' slash armor. Without that, you have to debuff their armor... which nullifies the saber's benefit, because while it starts dealing it's %120 damage, high-pen weapons have started over-penetrating and dealing %130. It's not a better option without debuffing, and it's not a better option with debuffing. Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:why do both scenarios suck though Because we've turned low-pen weapons into trap options, when I thought one of the main design goals was to remove those? Edit: Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:If the enemy has armor 6 and your high pen is 9, you're still doing 1x damage. Minor quibble, but wouldn't you be over-penetrating and doing 1.3x damage at that point? Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 21:40
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Zore posted:Proposed change; So instead of trying to actually demonstrate that this change makes sense mathmatically, you're going to be an rear end in a top hat? Okay, sure! I'm super convinced now.
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Nov 20, 2017 21:59
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Zore posted:The change to the math makes it work out very similarly to how it does now with 2 important changes. But it hasn't actually changed anything, because with enemies having triple the HP the game is still balanced around getting the penetration bonus. The only way this changes is if you make enemies WAY less lethal to compensate for doing the same to players, and then you've just made fights three times longer. And you still haven't addressed my issue with the whole system, which is that there doesn't seem to be a compelling mechanical reason to use low-pen weapons over high-pen ones. Edit: I do want to apologize for calling you an rear end in a top hat though. That was uncalled for. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 22:11
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Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:lets play "look at the data" By picking a weapon type that the creature your examining just happens to be weak against you've missed the entire point. A club will not penetrate an elite xaurip unless it's Superior or you have some serious form of penetration boost/armor reduction, ditto a spear, and whatever method you use to get that +3 total pen boost the low-pen weapon needs also boosts the Estoc or whatever into over-penetration. I don't have access to the full weapon data (could someone tell me where that is?), but using your own math low-pen weapons have a small advantage against trash-tier enemies (basic xaurips) and/or creatures weak to their damage type (also xaurips, in the case of daggers), as well as theoretical high-health, low armor enemies. But in exchange for that relatively minor advantage, they need buffs to deal with even moderate armor levels (8 in the demo) and are straight-up useless against heavier armor (12, which can be seen on the beetles for ex.). So if your beta character picks club and spear as their choices, they can't penetrate that xaurip champion at all without debuffing... which certainly seems like a trap choice, compared to other setups that can without sacrificing anything in return. Similarly, if I main an Estoc, do I want a club or a mace as my backup weapon? Unless I know that every enemy with high pierce armor is going to have low crush armor, I want the mace, because it can deal with enemies that have moderate crush armor (by using it's modal) whereas the club can't, which makes it a lovely backup weapon. You don't lose anything by taking two high-pen weapons other then a slight decrease in damage, but taking two low-pen weapons is at best a huge risk, for relatively little gain. Taking a high-pen weapon and a low-pen weapon is the theoretical ideal here, but in the current build the 5-pen-base weapons without a boosting modal aren't effective against a lot of enemy types, meaning there's significant concern that if your main weapon can't damage it then your backup might not either. At very least the numbers here need to be tweaked, imho.
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Nov 21, 2017 02:53
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Entropy238 posted:Agree. Including the accuracy issue - which was definitely also a factor - I didn’t feel that spellcasters were able to react to tough situations in battle in any meaningful or immediate way. In general I think the changes to Graze aren't that great, like if it's overpowered for CC effects you could have it induce a lesser effect (Confused instead of Charmed, for ex.) instead of reducing the Graze range or eliminating it entirely for melee. Without Graze you're missing on average 50% of the time, which doesn't feel good even if it's mechanically sound. Cast times are also a bit high right now - maybe Empowering a spell could reduce it's cast and/or recovery time? I've been using all my empowers on restoring abilities so far, actually empowering attacks feels anemic right now (although that may be due to a lack of info/feedback) as individual spell/abilities still miss/fail to penetrate pretty often even when Empowered. I'm clearly biased when I comes to Pen because the old system, where none of the weapons felt like trap options and you could just choose whatever you wanted without being punished for it, was something I really liked and am sad to see go. That being said, I do think the numbers on the current Pen system need some serious adjustment. As it currently stands 5-pen weapons are only slightly more effective against low-armor targets then an overpenetrating 9-pen weapon, but much less effective against high-armor enemies. Yes, you can use a spell to boost pen or debuff armor, but that same spell is likely to make the 9-pen weapon start overpenetrating (if it wasn't already) so then all you've done is restore the status quo of being only slightly more effective, at the opportunity of a more useful spell (like, say, Slicken or Restore), and the spell can miss, so it makes more sense to just use a high-pen weapon to begin with. Are there ways to fix this? Absolutely, you could buff low-pen weapons (or nerf high-pen ones if you're a jerk). But for me it really comes down to taking a look at that -70% malus; I respect the intent behind it but I think it's currently just too high to risk using low-pen weapons when a higher pen alternative is available. Fair Bear Maiden posted:You can retarget a spell at any point by just moving around the token it leaves, but based on the people I've seen streaming the beta, I don't think many people are aware of the feature. I think that without the ability to slow combat it just isn't very useful, I've tried to reposition spells to account for moving enemies two or three times and each time they moved further away right in the second or so it took for the spell to go off. Edit: I hadn't heard about the auto-pause thing and that's a good option to have, but it just doesn't sound like something I'd use in practice. Maybe if you could set it only for certain spells? Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Nov 21, 2017 |
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Nov 21, 2017 09:41
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Somebody only lets me have five character slots at a time! Yeah, I think this might be all that's needed. I mean, I think the actual penetration values of weapons (or enemy armor) could use some changes but this goes a big way towards making low-pen weapons more viable.
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Nov 21, 2017 20:13
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