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-Why the left should embrace an anti-trump strategy- I’ve seen and heard resistance from the left to democrats employing an anti-trump strategy. The argument seems to be “If democrats focus on being anti-trump, they won’t have to reckon with the bad ideas that allowed trump to win in the first place”. That’s the wrong way to think about it. We should think about an anti-Trump strategy as thematic, not a specific policy agenda. It’s a framework where moderate democrats and the radical left can work together without getting in each other’s way. Just because many democrats are putting a lot of effort into the Trump = Russian stooge argument does not mean that needs to be the only anti-Trump argument. There’s no reason why we cannot frame anti-capitalist sentiment as anti-trump. For instance: Trump = Wall street greed and corruption Trump = capitalist environmental catastrophes Trump = financial elites’ private profits subsidized with public risk Trump = tax breaks for the 1% and gutting social services Trump = False consciousness misleading the working class Trump = massive profits for shareholders at the expense of workers Trump = tool of an international conspiracy of oligarchs And if the left can successfully tie trump to the shittiest parts of capitalism, once the democrats have won, Trump becomes a bludgeon to use against moderate democrats. Is Corey Booker too close to wall street or financial institutions? He’s just like trump! Is Joe Manchin willing to poo poo on the environment to benefit some coal company? He’s just like trump! Is Chelsea Clinton pulling the wool over the eyes of the working class? She’s just like trump! Democrats are trying their best to turn the word Trump into a slur, and if they succeed that slur is going to be useful for a generation. The left will be wasting a massive opportunity if they don’t work to link Trump to the 1%, to financial institutions and wall street, and to the worst features of capitalism. Because if people think all those things when they think about Trump, it will be a lot harder for squishy dems to embrace them, and a lot easier for the left to punish them if they try. But to do that the left needs to stop worrying about the anti-Trump strategy and start co-opting it. And as a consequence, the left should consider other democrats attacking trump on Russia or on pussy grabbing as allies, and consider arguments that defend trump or diminish other anti-Trump efforts as counterproductive. Here's a specific example. Attacking Trump on Russia might seem like a distraction. But attacking Trump on Russia is making it impossible for Trump to focus on his agenda, which is good, and it's going to result in a bunch of open-ended investigation into Trump's finances, which is much better. Is there going to be anything illegal in there that will lead to impeachment? I'm doubtful. Will there be a bunch of stuff that illustrates all the corruption, malfeasance and plain evil that's embedded in wall street and the dominance of the 1%? Undoubtedly. Embrace the strategy now, and it will pay significant dividends for the narrative you want to dominate, particularly if the Russian connection is all a bunch of bullshit, which sure looks unlikely, but is possible. As long as the russian connection gets us Trump's finances, the narrative can start to be about Trump as the avatar of captialism's failures, and the anti-Trump strategy will have nowhere else to go but there.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:06
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Jon Ostoff of Georgia is running this kind of campaign, so I guess we'll soon see how effective that is. From the latest email:quote:We don’t have to wait until 2020 -- or 2018 -- to fight back against Donald Trump. Jon Ossoff’s special election is the FIRST competitive Congressional race of the Trump era. Civil rights icon John Lewis endorsed Jon’s historic campaign because he knows he’s our best chance to stand up for our values and stop Trump’s radical agenda.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:37
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CA-34 is having a special election in a month. It's probably a D+50 district, and heavily latino. The mailers and ads I've been seeing, all from democrats, are mostly about resisting Trump.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:48
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Interested to hear what people think qualifies as success in the Ossoff race, what qualifies as failure, and if there is a middle ground. On the one hand, district is the heavily Republican former seat of Gingrich, Isakson, and Price and hasn't been competitive in ages. It would seem overly harsh to declare Ossoff and his strategy a failure if he doesn't manage to win a seat Dems have been losing by 20+ points for decades. On the other hand, Trump only narrowly won the district, Ossoff has Lewis' endorsement, there is no clear GOP candidate, and the whoever winds up the Republican candidate will have to thread the needle between the Trumpers (most likely to vote in a special election) and the Trump-loathing remainder of Republicans in the district.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:58
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I think the anti-Trump strategy is a distraction strategy. Trump isn't the problem, he's just another symptom. I guess if it moves liberals who pay less attention to actual issues to the left it might be a good thing. Otherwise all that is going to happen is Trump is going to be voted out in four or eight years or maybe if the stars align with the moon and Trump is impeached less time and then the 'movement' peters out like everything else the left does and we get Trump 2.0 in eight years.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:06
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Doorknob Slobber posted:I think the anti-Trump strategy is a distraction strategy. Trump isn't the problem, he's just another symptom. I guess if it moves liberals who pay less attention to actual issues to the left it might be a good thing. Otherwise all that is going to happen is Trump is going to be voted out in four or eight years or maybe if the stars align with the moon and Trump is impeached less time and then the 'movement' peters out like everything else the left does and we get Trump 2.0 in eight years. Keep in mind that Trump is going to leave in 8 years at the most regardless, due to term limits.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:07
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Keep in mind that Trump is going to leave in 8 years at the most regardless, due to term limits. countdown to libs arguing we can't shouldn't move left to win because Trump will be gone in 8 years regardless
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Mar 6, 2017 00:12
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GA-6 is listed as R+12, but democrats have lost by 45, 36, (no candidate), 29, 33, and 23 percent since 2006. So the trend is in the right direction, but it's still a huge deficit. http://zpolitics.com/exclusive-poll-trump-holds-favor-cd-6-voters-handel-leading-among-gop-candidates/?utm_content=buffer1ad7f quote:Eight weeks out from the special election to replace Tom Price, the survey found that Democrat Ossoff leads over other candidates with 32 percent support. Behind him is former Republican Secretary of State Handel, who holds 25 percent support, while John’s Creek Councilman Bob Gray was favored by 11 percent of respondents. Ossoff is winning, but won't be once there's only one republican in the race, and It's not exactly fertile ground for an anti-Trump strategy.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:13
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icantfindaname posted:countdown to libs arguing we can't shouldn't move left to win because Trump will be gone in 8 years regardless Maybe Democrats would take your arguments more seriously if you didn't share with Republicans the propensity of using "libs" as a slur.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:15
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i think we should be anti-trump in that he's a russian sockpuppet and needs to be impeached immediately sense. if we're talking about elections, you need to focus on what you'll bring to the public, not that you're not trump. people are tired of voting for not republicans who turn out to keep republican policies anyway, and I'd hate to vote for a not-trump just for him/her to keep fascist poo poo around.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:16
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Doorknob Slobber posted:I think the anti-Trump strategy is a distraction strategy. Trump isn't the problem, he's just another symptom. I guess if it moves liberals who pay less attention to actual issues to the left it might be a good thing. Otherwise all that is going to happen is Trump is going to be voted out in four or eight years or maybe if the stars align with the moon and Trump is impeached less time and then the 'movement' peters out like everything else the left does and we get Trump 2.0 in eight years. So make trump a symbol of all that's wrong with capitalism and then use him to smear Trump 2.0 whether he's coming from the left or the right. By framing anti-capitalist arguments as anti-Trump you'll outflank any centrists who would otherwise be defending capitalism. Condiv posted:i think we should be anti-trump in that he's a russian sockpuppet and needs to be impeached immediately sense. if we're talking about elections, you need to focus on what you'll bring to the public, not that you're not trump Why not anti-trump in a wall-street finance 1% anti-capitalist sense? Make it so opposing trump implies opposing all of that. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 00:18
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Maybe Democrats would take your arguments more seriously if you didn't share with Republicans the propensity of using "libs" as a slur. he means it in the exact same sense as your title alhazred  should dems not take your arguments seriously?
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Mar 6, 2017 00:18
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Condiv posted:i think we should be anti-trump in that he's a russian sockpuppet and needs to be impeached immediately sense. if we're talking about elections, you need to focus on what you'll bring to the public, not that you're not trump. people are tired of voting for not republicans who turn out to keep republican policies anyway, and I'd hate to vote for a not-trump just for him/her to keep fascist poo poo around. Yeah, we don't want a return of the Blue Dog Democrats, absolutely. We have a similar, hell, even more ludicrous situation here in New York, where the State Republicans rule through a coalition with the Independent Democratic Caucus. Condiv posted:he means it in the exact same sense as your title alhazred It's my ironic response to people calling me a liberal as a slur. 
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 00:23
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Maybe Democrats would take your arguments more seriously if you didn't share with Republicans the propensity of using "libs" as a slur. same but for liberals going full-bore cold war mccarthyist
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Mar 6, 2017 00:25
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icantfindaname posted:same but for liberals going full-bore cold war mccarthyist Same but for some leftists going full-bore repeating
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Mar 6, 2017 00:27
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Same but for some leftists going full-bore repeating Liberals have literally degenerated to the level of republicans who would believe the sky is green and the oceans are blood-red if the Washington Post said they're not
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Mar 6, 2017 00:30
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The left doesn't want to an anti-Trump strategy because they share his isolationist and white nationalist tendencies. Their politics are also based primarily on spite and aggrievement, just like Trump's.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:30
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icantfindaname posted:Liberals have literally degenerated to the level of republicans who would believe the sky is green and the oceans are blood-red if the Washington Post said they're not 
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Mar 6, 2017 00:32
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Ogmius815 posted:The left doesn't want to an anti-Trump strategy because they share his isolationist and white nationalist tendencies. Their politics are also based primarily on spite and aggrievement, just like Trump's. 
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Mar 6, 2017 00:41
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What do you do if you bet everything on this and Trump dies/resigns in Year 3? Now Mike Pence gets 2 terms because you've been trying to tie everything bad to Trump and nothing to him.
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Mar 6, 2017 01:23
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WampaLord posted:What do you do if you bet everything on this and Trump dies/resigns in Year 3? purge the whole admin cause of russian corruption, call a special election bernie vs jeb!
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Mar 6, 2017 01:25
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Just ask political powerhouse Gerald Ford. If Trump is toxic his VP isn't going anywhere.
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Mar 6, 2017 01:26
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JeffersonClay posted:Just ask political powerhouse Gerald Ford. If Trump is toxic his VP isn't going anywhere. Okay, President Paul Ryan, then.
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Mar 6, 2017 01:26
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JeffersonClay posted:Just ask political powerhouse Gerald Ford. If Trump is toxic his VP isn't going anywhere. foreign government take over of a political branch is way worse than nixon. WampaLord posted:Okay, President Paul Ryan, then. gotta purge him too. russian collaborator sen manchin too
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Mar 6, 2017 01:28
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Condiv posted:purge the whole admin cause of russian corruption, call a special election Condiv posted:foreign government take over of a political branch is way worse than nixon. Oh, right, I forgot there was the "purge" button you could push on top Republicans if you just want it enough. Face it, they're maybe liable to throw Trump out because he's not an insider and he's explicitly being emolumented and/or treasonous, but they're going to close ranks around Pence unless there's a real smoking gun.
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Mar 6, 2017 01:33
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WampaLord posted:Okay, President Paul Ryan, then. His fingers are in the pie, along with every other elected republican, and if we force them to throw trump under the bus their coalition will shatter regardless. Condiv posted:foreign government take over of a political branch is way worse than Nixon Right, this scandal is actually worse than Nixon's ratfucking, You're getting it!
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Mar 6, 2017 01:35
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JeffersonClay posted:Right, this scandal is actually worse than Nixon's ratfucking, You're getting it! i already got it a while back jefferson. Absurd Alhazred posted:Oh, right, I forgot there was the "purge" button you could push on top Republicans if you just want it enough. Face it, they're maybe liable to throw Trump out because he's not an insider and he's explicitly being emolumented and/or treasonous, but they're going to close ranks around Pence unless there's a real smoking gun. gotta purge em all don''t want any secret russians to still be in the woodwork
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Mar 6, 2017 02:00
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Condiv posted:i already got it a while back jefferson. If this is an attempt at humor it's not really working so well.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:09
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It's performance art you're just not getting it.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:11
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JeffersonClay posted:His fingers are in the pie, along with every other elected republican, and if we force them to throw trump under the bus their coalition will shatter regardless. Maybe. Or perhaps using a shaky evidence provided by the deep state under questionable circumstances to oust a democratically elected president (who is still very popular among large swathes of the country) will cause a lot of people to collectively flip their poo poo and embrace someone even worse. It's hard to say for certain. quote:Right, this scandal is actually worse than Nixon's Take a shot everybody. Also LOL you know nothing of Nixon's scandal(s) if you think that's actually the case.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:12
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ratfucking
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If this is an attempt at humor it's not really working so well. i don't think anyone in the current administration can be trusted to hold power. if the executive branch is currently under the thumb of the russian goverment that's unprecedentedly bad and i think we need to start thinking constitutional changes as soon as we get a non-compromised government in power
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Mar 6, 2017 02:13
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readingatwork posted:Take a shot everybody.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:17
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I thought we'd settled on ratcucked. How about democrats that fell for Russian agitprop before the election were ratfucked. But the ones that are still falling for it, despite everyone screaming at them to spit putin's dick out, are ratcucked.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:29
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JeffersonClay posted:How about democrats that fell for Russian agitprop before the election were ratfucked. But the ones that are still falling for it, despite everyone screaming at them to spit putin's dick out, are ratcucked. Now that is starting to sound a lot like McCarthyism.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:34
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Now that is starting to sound a lot like McCarthyism. There's a world of difference between falsely accusing people of being communists to destroy them and credibly accusing bad leftists of being dumbasses to shame them.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:57
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Condiv posted:i don't think anyone in the current administration can be trusted to hold power. if the executive branch is currently under the thumb of the russian goverment that's unprecedentedly bad and i think we need to start thinking constitutional changes as soon as we get a non-compromised government in power Wait for the evidence and don't become the left's Benghazi/email idiot.
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Mar 6, 2017 03:02
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asdf32 posted:Wait for the evidence and don't become the left's Benghazi/email idiot. You mean then candidate Trump calling on Russia to release emails, having to fire one of his cabinet members for lying about meeting Russians, and then having another cabinet member found out to have lied under oath, is not sufficient evidence? It's way the hell more than 6 Congressional investigations managed to dig up about Clinton regarding Benghazi.
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Mar 6, 2017 03:04
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It isn't that there is anything wrong with having an anti-trump message, but it is only half of the equation. Identify what it is that he is doing and how it is bad and offer a meaningful and understandable solution.
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Mar 6, 2017 03:13
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JeffersonClay posted:credibly accusing bad leftists of being dumbasses to shame them. -Harry S Truman, 1948
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Mar 6, 2017 03:13
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anti-trump strategy should be accompanied by a pro-poor strategy, to offer a vision and program that replaces and acts as a positive narrative counterpoint to divisive and hateful trumpism. democrats and the left do not respond the same way to moralist narratives the same way conservatives and republicans do, if i recall what various social psychology papers said. they respond more to and require active positive engagement if you want a sustained movement or reliable votes. As for tying everything to trump, bernice king disagreed with that last month quote:Amended Post (especially related to #1 below):
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Mar 6, 2017 03:16
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