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Serephina posted:... Likewise, SHODAN has a throwaway line about installing so many cybermods it looks like you're trying to emulate her machine perfection, but there isn't a huge flashing meter across your upgrade screen labelled "Remaining humanity", ... This is enormously nerdy to inquire, but I remember that line. Are you certain it's based on the number of mods you've used and not a static line? Given cybermods are the only equivalent to xp or skill points I'd be surprised that the designers considered a 'low-mods' run that early in the lineage.
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Jan 2, 2022 19:57
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Nonono, you're right its totally a static line. My point was that the game can make quips about certain topics without disincentivizing the player with a mechanic. Buy dem mods, ascend from being a fleshy meatbag, guilt-free.
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Jan 2, 2022 20:27
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In prey at least i interpret the “penalty” for installing typhon neuromods to be a balancing mechanic that they took care to have a narrative explanation for. If it were actually intended as some sort of punishment for the player youd figure theyd do something beyond angry turrets as a consequence. I think this complaint is pretty off-base tbqh. The first two bioshocks are my favorite games and ive replayed them a million times each and have only gone on a little sister harvesting rampage maybe once. Whereas in all of my prey playthroughs ive gotten hosed up on alien neurons, and i just started my typhon-only playthrough (on survival mode lmao). The options in the games are there for you to choose as a player, if youre feeling judged or whatever i think that says more about you than it does the dev team and game design. Especially since in prey’s case the typhon neuromods/killing all humans/choosing to align with the dude in the back half of the game are fully fleshed out options, versus bioshock where if you eat children you just get extra game currency and miss out on content. That latter design feels more like punishment through game development than anything in prey.
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Jan 2, 2022 21:10
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achievements are probably more to blame for players limiting their neuromods than in-game narrative it's worth noting that the original kills vs KOs mechanic was from Thief where it was a difficulty modifier. the fans approached it the same way, with self-imposed challenges to ghost levels entirely with no kills, KOs or alerts at all. this required more skill, more system knowledge than challenges that just flat out restrict certain actions or approaches
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Jan 2, 2022 21:43
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Also turrets are worthless beyond, like, your first return to the lobby after getting the Artix kit, by which point you haven't even unlocked the Scope to get typhon tricks.
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Jan 3, 2022 01:47
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Bogart posted:Also turrets are worthless beyond, like, your first return to the lobby after getting the Artix kit, by which point you haven't even unlocked the Scope to get typhon tricks. They're still good in multiples. I found them really useful for clearing out all the elemental phantasms patrolling around the Arboretum after you get a bunch from the armoury.
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Jan 3, 2022 02:20
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Less Fat Luke posted:Nope. There's an achievement for saving every human that you might wanna do in a future playthrough though. Cool, I suspected that they'd be rescuable and that it was for a specific playstyle maybe tied to achievements, but was worried that there was going to be this big narrative turn on me like you MONSTER! when I'm just tryna stay alive and explore/loot every nook and cranny like a normal goddamn person. That some are named and others aren't definitely gave me pause, but it was either remember to come back after I've figured out a way to save them, or blast these things right here right now and get that sweet, sweet loot. I chose. Dismayed to hear turrets become useless because I've been using them liberally to help me with fighting the phantoms. I've only just got my Artix propulsion backpack, so still very early I assume. Resources have not really been an issue yet. Between the game giving me tons of recycler grenades, and a guaranteed recycler station at multiple points, I feel like I'm just doing a lot of busy work moving things into a room to chuck a grenade at, or to lug inventory back to the machine and remember to go back and get the rest from [location I couldn't completely loot]. But I've managed to upgrade the main 3 weapons I got (Gloo, Pistol, Shock pistol) to 1 pip in each category just by making more weapon upgrade kits at a fabricator. I also had enough resources to make a few neuromods which honestly felt a bit cheap; It was cooler when I was just finding these things. Survival options have, so far anyway, been a mixed bag. I couldn't get a neuromod in during the beginning stages because I got concussed by whacking an explosive canister during the "your apartment and chopper ride was a SET" reveal, and had to find the trauma center to heal myself. So I was collecting the mods but couldn't install them, and it was actually a somewhat novel gaming experience knowing I had to abandon the main objectives to get somewhere first so I could stab myself in the skull with these dang things. Since then I've been irradiated and suffered third degree burns, which I solved by trekking it all the way to the last medbot. A bit tedious, but now I've got rad pills at least. Haven't suffered bleeding yet, but losing health when sprinting or jumping sounds very annoying so I 3d printed some coagulation hyposprays. Possibly will regret picking survival options in the future. Thanks for reading my lovely LP! Shrimp or Shrimps fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Jan 3, 2022 |
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Jan 3, 2022 03:43
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Shrimp or Shrimps posted:Dismayed to hear turrets become useless because I've been using them liberally to help me with fighting the phantoms. I've only just got my Artix propulsion backpack, so still very early I assume. Super late game they become useless but turrets remain useful for a long time. A lot of people don't like them because the phantoms can knock them down, but if you're smart about positioning them you can mitigate that. I think turrets wind up losing their value long past the point where you don't need their help anymore.
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Jan 3, 2022 04:08
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Shrimp or Shrimps posted:Cool, I suspected that they'd be rescuable and that it was for a specific playstyle maybe tied to achievements, but was worried that there was going to be this big narrative turn on me like you MONSTER! when I'm just tryna stay alive and explore/loot every nook and cranny like a normal goddamn person. This spoiler completely ruins everything but this was specifically a thing that bugged me about the game soooo there is literally no penalty whatsoever to killing named Phantoms. They are not human, they can not be saved, there is no uh oh last second reveal that you've been killing people. I don't even remember if the game even goes into any detail as to why they exist beyond the obvious. Also FWIW Serephina I completely agree with what you've said. I've grown really frustrated with modern immersive sim design because morality systems have latched onto the genre like a parasite. Another oft-missed point is that even if said system is actually generous, flexible, or a minor factor none of that matters if it's presented to the player terribly. Dishonored really, really should not have had a big pop up at the end of the tutorial saying that the Chaos System was watching and you'd better not do anything naughty if didn't want to suffer the consequences. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Jan 3, 2022 |
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Jan 3, 2022 05:31
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Wafflecopper posted:They're still good in multiples. I found them really useful for clearing out all the elemental phantasms patrolling around the Arboretum after you get a bunch from the armoury. And in this game the kill every human achievement is generally harder to get than the save everyone achievement, since you have to hunt everyone down, you lose out on rewards, and if I remember correctly, you have to kill a few NPCs at a certain time rather than immediately after you meet them if you want to kill everyone.
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Jan 3, 2022 05:51
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I think both achievements mostly exist to make you hate Telepaths. Did a mind-controlled human blow up in your face? You didn't save them. Also, you didn't kill them, a Telepath made that happen. So no kill credit. They also jam several mind-controlled humans together in the doorway to the swimming pool. Better be quick with the Disruptor or skirt away when Mindjack is on cooldown! Mierenneuker fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Jan 3, 2022 |
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Jan 3, 2022 10:20
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Shrimp or Shrimps posted:
just as a pro tip for bleeding: if you have your Artix system and can dash with it (I forget if this is an option in the main game or Mooncrash only) the dash does not cause the bleeding damage to proc, so you can still effectively "run". Jumping still sucks, though the glide jump from the Artix also doesn't cause the bleed.
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Jan 3, 2022 12:55
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John Murdoch posted:This spoiler completely ruins everything but this was specifically a thing that bugged me about the game soooo there is literally no penalty whatsoever to killing named Phantoms. They are not human, they can not be saved, there is no uh oh last second reveal that you've been killing people. I don't even remember if the game even goes into any detail as to why they exist beyond the obvious. I can't remember if it was a fever dream or what, but while exploring outside the station, I thought Alex says that the coral is manifested from psychic material, that is, it's not made of people, it's made of the mental make-up of people. The Typhon see our brain information as construction material, not as evidence of other sentient beings. So named Typhon have details that we might use to recognize a person, but this is only a facsimile appearance, it's still just a Typhon that ate somebody. I do think immmersive sims should have choices and consequences, but diluting that into a binary morality system seems to turn complex systems into "do you want to be a Jedi or a Sith".
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Jan 3, 2022 13:25
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One thing I do really appreciate about the morality system in Prey is that it judges you only on humans you directly kill, not ones you fail to save.
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Jan 3, 2022 13:38
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to an extent its the game designer's crutch to blame the player for being dumb, but Dishonored is also the game where people repeatedly showed up in the thread saying stuff like "I'm quick saving and reloading every time I get spotted and for some weird reason I'm not enjoying the game", to the extent where IIRC "stop quicksaving" was put in the OP so I kind of get it.
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Jan 3, 2022 13:48
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Twobirds posted:I can't remember if it was a fever dream or what, but while exploring outside the station, I thought Alex says that the coral is manifested from psychic material, that is, it's not made of people, it's made of the mental make-up of people. The Typhon see our brain information as construction material, not as evidence of other sentient beings. So named Typhon have details that we might use to recognize a person, but this is only a facsimile appearance, it's still just a Typhon that ate somebody. That's more or less what I meant, in the sense that broadly speaking Typhons mimic stuff, named Phantoms are them loosely mimicking people but I guess where it falls flat for me is that I'm not really clearly why they would, diagetically speaking, be labeled by someone's name in my HUD. It feels like there should be more going on there, as if it was a dropped plot point. I guess it's conceivable I just missed some detail explaining it over the course of the game but it stuck out to me for the reaction it provoked only to not actually mean anything significant. Twobirds posted:I do think immmersive sims should have choices and consequences, but diluting that into a binary morality system seems to turn complex systems into "do you want to be a Jedi or a Sith". Pretty much, yeah. As was said Deus Ex has choices and consequences but they come naturally from other people's opinions of JC's actions rather than being a constant question of how naughty he is or isn't because the player  non-lethally bonked someone on the head or *gasp* shot them with a gun.This also leads to my other least favorite thing which is that these games keep screaming "don't you dare be naughty!!!" with their mechanics but then make not being naughty the most boring poo poo imaginable. Like Dishonored's whopping TWO means of non-lethal engagement. Though I guess DX3 went in sort of the opposite direction for me where the shooting was painfully boring and phoned in but nonetheless there needed to be a giant armory of weapons available to not use because, poo poo, I dunno. Basically what I always say is that we need more Thiefs that just say gently caress it and go all-in on one style of approach instead of halfheartedly trying to do both for the sake of ~player choice~.
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Jan 4, 2022 05:28
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Since phantoms are raised from corpses, the named ones are from bodies that still had their ID tag on them. But yes it's confusing, but I feel intentionally so and it's a good spooky mystery.
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Jan 4, 2022 05:48
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Yeah, my thought was more that the Psychoscope / Tristar uniform sees enough of the human they used to be that it still tags them as that.
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Jan 4, 2022 05:50
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Everyone has an RFID wrist band. It comes up explicitly a few times.
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Jan 4, 2022 06:06
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I forget, if you take the Phantom Genesis power does your spawned phantom keep the name of the person from whom you raised it?
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Jan 4, 2022 07:55
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I guess the stumbling point for me then is not fully understanding the connection between the person killed by Typhon and the Phantom organism itself. Maybe that's just on me for not reading the psychoscope reports closely enough, though.
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Jan 4, 2022 10:25
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John Murdoch posted:I guess the stumbling point for me then is not fully understanding the connection between the person killed by Typhon and the Phantom organism itself. Maybe that's just on me for not reading the psychoscope reports closely enough, though. The phantoms are basically twisted reanimated corpses so they're still wearing the wrist bands (or the wrist bands are inside them I guess)
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Jan 4, 2022 10:36
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Yeah, fair enough, I guess I just straight up didn't make that connection. 
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Jan 4, 2022 11:37
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Feels Villeneuve posted:to an extent its the game designer's crutch to blame the player for being dumb, but Dishonored is also the game where people repeatedly showed up in the thread saying stuff like "I'm quick saving and reloading every time I get spotted and for some weird reason I'm not enjoying the game", to the extent where IIRC "stop quicksaving" was put in the OP so I kind of get it. Well this is it. The designer can go "oh hey, the players are being dumb" all they want but if their design keeps funnelling people to that playstyle, that's also on them as a designer. At some point you have to shrug and go "oh poo poo, my design is kind of reinforcing that mindset".
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Jan 5, 2022 15:51
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dogstile posted:Well this is it. The designer can go "oh hey, the players are being dumb" all they want but if their design keeps funnelling people to that playstyle, that's also on them as a designer. I think people are more open to considering save systems part of the overall game design these days, I think back when it came out, the idea of doing the correct thing of encouraging players to play through by removing save-anywhere would have been considered a feature deficiency by the audience. See Hitman where especially on high difficulty, the save system is highly limited by design to prevent the game from becoming a QS/QL festival.
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Jan 5, 2022 17:32
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Yeah, it just has to be done well. When it doesn't it just makes people uninstall. See: My recent experience with Vampyr, I didn't remember a note from 4 hours previously and it hosed my run, so I just uninstalled because that's both lovely game design and them not respecting my time.
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Jan 5, 2022 19:13
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loving with save state expectation is what you have to do if you want variable outcomes in choice and consequence or really any consequences or improvisation of any kind, unless you make big exhausting gently caress off epics where the worm only turns on a decision after hours of intervening content, or you’re working with series. Sometimes not even then. If you’ve got less time to play than it takes to clear a level in one sitting, don’t play games designed for multi
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Jan 5, 2022 20:40
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Hey, just FYI Prey digital deluxe edition is 11.99 on euro psn at the moment, down from 39.99 gonna buy it myself tomorrow. I originally played Prey on someone else's ps4 and its solidly a good enough game that I'll buy it to play on my own console.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:51
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Basic Chunnel posted:If you’ve got less time to play than it takes to clear a level in one sitting, don’t play games designed for multi
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Jan 5, 2022 20:54
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Less Fat Luke posted:The Souls game has an almost identical invasion mechanic, and you can save and quit anywhere except when someone is invading you. except in the souls games you also can't pause the game to stop action, and saving and quitting resets your progress
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Jan 5, 2022 20:55
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flatluigi posted:except in the souls games you also can't pause the game to stop action, and saving and quitting resets your progress
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Jan 5, 2022 21:33
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The only time saving and quitting resets your progress in a souls game is when you do it in a boss fight, where it "resets" you fifteen feet away in front of the boss door
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Jan 6, 2022 00:22
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I swear last time I played it reset what enemies were alive, but it's been a while since I last played (and I usually only save/quit at a bonfire)
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Jan 6, 2022 01:59
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Buying this in the steam winter sale was a fantastic decision. About 5 years late to the party but that was 50 hours well spent between it and mooncrash.
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Jan 6, 2022 04:52
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Screw it - decided to replay Prey again. I'm no focusing on any specific build just unlocking powers I need/think will be fun at the time. Hard difficulty - everyone says the game is too easy but I'm bad at games and I've found it's been the perfect balance between making fights tense and actually having to use resources and becoming frustrated with lack of progress. Something about how "real" Talos One feels just scratches an itch for me, kind of like the first time I played Bioshock but more so. Been having a great time exploring slowly and scouring every inch of the station even though this is my third playthrough. It still feels rewarding. until the other night my drat cat jumped up and somehow hit the quick load button and I lost some progress 
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Jan 6, 2022 18:16
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Yeah the environment is absolutely amazing, it feels so well put together and actually inhabited; the achievement for tracking everyone down was great because you realize every single person on the list is somewhere dead or alive on the station, had a quarters somewhere, etc. Amazing set piece.
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Jan 6, 2022 18:35
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I really do like games that do the "everyone and everything came from somewhere" thing, and Prey does that surprisingly well, with out of place items often connected to someone talking in an e-mail about how they're going to do a thing or took a thing or so on.
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Jan 6, 2022 19:05
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Yeah, Arkane's sense of environment is second to none. Dunwall and Karnaca feel like real places with layers of history. Same with Talos. Deathloop is probably their weakest in that regard, but it's still solid.
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Jan 6, 2022 19:09
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It doesn't hurt that I finally upgraded to a high-refresh 1440p monitor and while Prey's graphics aren't mind blowing or cutting-edge, the game looks great even today and I love a lot of the stylistic choices. Even runs decently even on my old RX 580.
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Jan 6, 2022 21:51
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GlyphGryph posted:I really do like games that do the "everyone and everything came from somewhere" thing, and Prey does that surprisingly well, with out of place items often connected to someone talking in an e-mail about how they're going to do a thing or took a thing or so on. They’ve been doing that since Arx Fatalis and, to my mind, they’re the best at it!
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Jan 6, 2022 22:45
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