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Davin Valkri posted:Probably a side effect of the game being set in 2023, with all the craziness thereto (including privately owned Raptors and proliferated PAK-FAs), thus there's a feeling of needing to keep pace with the tech edge. If the game were set in 1993 we would be begging for Sparrow IIIs. Yeah, it's an effect of 'Yeah a crazy short-ranged missile and gun dogfight would be rad, but we have no idea if that's going to happen or if we're going to be dying to stealth fighters and so it's best to buy for option 2 just in case.'
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Oct 17, 2017 17:14
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 11:06 |
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Night10194 posted:I think the funniest thing is that Yooper keeps trying to get us away from the crazy missiles but they're so insanely good (and if you don't have them and the enemy does, your expensive plane is so insanely screwed) that there's almost no amount of disincentive that will make using an 8 million dollar missile rather than losing a 70 million dollar plane a bad trade. If we want to see more dogfights and even match-ups, the thing to do would be to re-wind the setting to 1975. Terrible BVR missiles means more dogfights and more close-in action. Maybe do a "flashback" campaign or something for one theater? Or have us take command of some backwater air force. To keep things on the DL, we can't use our own planes, but have to use some Cold War relics instead (against enemies with similar stuff).
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Oct 17, 2017 17:18
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Night10194 posted:I think the funniest thing is that Yooper keeps trying to get us away from the crazy missiles but they're so insanely good (and if you don't have them and the enemy does, your expensive plane is so insanely screwed) that there's almost no amount of disincentive that will make using an 8 million dollar missile rather than losing a 70 million dollar plane a bad trade. A good portion of my worry is we'd lose everything on a mission and be so broke we'd be flying the shittiest poo poo available. Destructobux kept our wallets flush. It wasn't my original intention. Everyone wants cool planes, I want cool planes, so I needed a thematic way to bulk up the roster. With the 3DP option we have a viable way to bring back cool stuff and do it in a relatively affordable way. With smaller missions the payout for destructobux is going to go down. Mission payout should be the largest $$$, and the destructobux a nice bonus. I'd been running 20% destructobux, so a $100mil jet earned us, after a meteor, $18 mil. I'll likely make it so destructobox !> mission payout. I'd like to see more of a financial decision come into missions, not only how do we do this, but how do we do it to maximize profits?
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Oct 17, 2017 17:18
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By the way, can we 3D print B52s? I don't care if it's limited to really old ones, and without the nuclear options. I just want to carpet bomb things.
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Oct 17, 2017 17:35
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I still wish this were a 1930s/1940s game, if only so we could have a bomber full of machine guns.
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Oct 17, 2017 17:36
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Dance Officer posted:By the way, can we 3D print B52s? I don't care if it's limited to really old ones, and without the nuclear options. B52s are slated to still be flying into 2050s, so they should still be available. Just pick one out of the boneyard.
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Oct 17, 2017 17:41
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i think you guys are way underestimating the value of the Ivanov Flankers compared to everything else on offer. 1) They get 4 70 NM missiles, two of which are IR guided, 2 SARH. In addition, they get 2 45 NM missiles that it can fire after the 70 NMs are finished being guided. Along with a couple of Archers that beat the pants off of any and all Sidewinders in this era. 2)Against that, except for the silver bullet Meteors, the best avaliable A2A options are a) Sparrows of 55 NM range that only get carried 4 at a time. b) MICAs of 45 NM range. c) AMRAAMs of 40 NM range that get deployed from significantly less numbers of platforms. 3)Flankers have a lot bigger fuel tank/loiter time than typical Sovstuff. Moreso than F-16s/18s at least. Also is IFR capable. 4)The Fishbeds should be viewed as the Thrown In Bonus Car Air Freshner Tier, not a actual part of the offer, IMO. 8 of them are still quite a few dumb bombs/cluster bombs/rokkits being thrown about, even if you're quite firm they should be not be anywhere near A2a. 5)Ivanov Lenin offers us another AWACS that isn't quite as good as the Saab radar-wise but still has a pgood ESM suite. Theres also 2 OECM cargo planes tossed in that could be useful for stand-off jamming if we're running up against 70s/80s era stuff, and probably also serve a secondary ELINT capability in general. 6)Ivanov Trotsky gets us All The CAS you could ever want for going full Fulda Gap. Really short legs on Frogfoots even by Soviet Frontal Aviation standards, though. Lots of bombs. 7)Our A2G operations could really stand to have some Floggers printed up for them no matter what we pick, TBH. They have a good laundry list of Soviet A2G things, including 2 Rooskie Mavericks, 2 Rooskie SHORAD buster ARMs, Rooskie Bullpups, 4 Rooskie LGB/TV bombs, and all kinds of dumb bombs/rockets/warcrime options. I feel like they'd make a good job of filling holes that our Tornados can't handle very well, even with their shorter legs. 8)Ivanov core + a option costs us 600 million, instead of 650 when going with other suppliers. More room for Printing Stuff! Thus, i have the following proposal. Ivanov core, Lenin Option, Print us 8 Bisons and 6 Floggers to go with it.
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Oct 17, 2017 18:54
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So I've decided to compare the max A/A layouts of the core options that aren't Meteors or AAAMs along with the stated patrol ranges. K&P Gripen: 6 IRIS-Ts with a range of15 nm. Aircraft range is 350 nm at 30 minute patrol time Mirage 2000: 4 MICA EMs and 2 MICA IRs both with ranges of 45 nm. Aircraft range is 150 nm at 140 minute patrol time Ching Kuo: 4 Sky Sword Is with a range of 10 nm and 2 Sky Sword IIs with a range of 30 nm. Aircraft range is 150nm at 50 minute patrol time. Broadstreet F-14E: 6 AIM-120Cs with a range of 40 nm. Aircraft range is 150 nm at 150 minute patrol time. F/A-18D: 4 AIM-7Ms with a range of 55nm. Aircraft range is 150 nm at 85 minute patrol time. Additionally the Sparrows are not fire and forget, the Hornet must keep sights on the target F-16C Block 40: 4 AIM-120As with a range of 40 nm. Aircraft range is 200 nm at 85 minute patrol time. Ivanov SU-27: 2 AA-10 As with a range of 45 nm, 2 AA-10 Cs and 2-AA-10 Ds both with ranges of 70nm. Aircraft range is 200 nm at 95 minute patrol time. The AA-10 A and C have the same problem as the Sparrows. I wish I knew how to calculate the patrol times at different ranges. Dreamsicle fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 19:18
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Later on, if we pay tooling for one thing, it might be the 1987 Flankers. They're a decent A2A option within the 3dprinting restrictions, maybe even the best A2A option since Tomcats aren't going to have their best missiles. The 87 mil in tooling isn't a small cost, but it's probably worth it if the product is somewhere in the 20 mil to 30 mil per plane range. I'm still for Gripens, and I've warmed quite a bit on the boat. But even at the 650 million for the package, 350 million if we saved it could buy us tooling and 8+ Flankers once we get a chance to procure new 3dprint planes? That would give us 16 decent multiroles and keep us the option of modern silver bullets, which is more than I can say for any other combination.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:23
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TheDemon posted:Later on, if we pay tooling for one thing, it might be the 1987 Flankers. They're a decent A2A option within the 3dprinting restrictions, maybe even the best A2A option since Tomcats aren't going to have their best missiles. The 87 mil in tooling isn't a small cost, but it's probably worth it if the product is somewhere in the 20 mil to 30 mil per plane range. We're definitely going to need a price quote on that. I don't see Su-27s getting printed for anything less than 30 mil, or even up to 40 mil, after tooling costs (which would be around 87 mil--probably best to round it up to ~90 or so, to make calculations easier).
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Oct 17, 2017 19:57
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Listen, guys. We are getting those Tomcats and that is final. You cannot argue with destiny!
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Oct 17, 2017 21:42
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Putting my two cents in for Gripens+Invisiboat.
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Oct 17, 2017 21:45
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Yeah but we don’t have to get them now
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Oct 17, 2017 21:45
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 The world is changing. PMC's are rising to solve problems once done on the open market. Mercantilism, graft, and nationalism are growing across the globe. Where once a corporation could fight an advertising war, now they rely increasingly more on PMC's. Nations, once wary of open war and the consequences now agitate and use PMC's to fight wars they lack the stomach for. Why draft a citizen when you can up his taxes and pay a merc? Hired Goons has set an example. Fight the right fight and you might profit. This is a teaser for post-procurement. Don't vote yet. As you'll see all sorts of missions are available. Each theater has many many operators. I thought to myself, "How can I make this more mercenary and less private army?" So this is our answer. Factions. We are not restricted to one employer. We may take missions from many different sources until we sufficiently piss off the other side. Want to play one off the other? Want to ride the middle? The benefit to loyalty is increased rewards, but we can totally walk the line and shoot everyone eventually.  First, is a theater we've seen already. The Balkans.  quote:anko Perešin built an empire. His started as a meager manufacturing shop after Tito died. Janko had an odd advantage. His father was Serbian while his mother was Croatian. Through the 90's he was able to walk the line and sell weapons to both sides. When the UN embargo struck Janko was in the right place at the right time. Years passed. Janko eventually purchased YugoImport and steered the direction of the greater Yugoslavia. His vision was a united Yugoslavia, not a group of small, weak, balkan states. Then he bought the Greek debt off the Germans and the world realized it had happened. Yugoslavia was back. In addition is the alcohol wars. Four new corporations vie for market domination. COKE, UNICUM, MOLSON-COORS-TACO BELL, and Schmohz! Some people wanted comedy. Others wanted more serious. Now we can get both in one theater. Fight one battle for RABA Corp, and then help Schmohz knock out COKE a week later.  And then we have this mess. On one side is a resurgent nationalist Algeria who is agitating for Pan-African solidarity. Already they have "encouraged" an exile uprising on Sardinia. France and Italy are struggling to maintain control of both an influx of immigrants and their own safety. Algeria sees it as an opportunity to egg them along and gain ground militarily and politically. Tunisia and Morocco are unwilling participants and both want to see Algeria knocked down to size. The British, now completely Brexited, want to fight the French outside of Univision and are stirring the pot with all involved. On top of this is a sugary beverage influx. Rising obesity rates and Islam's prohibition of alcohol, has fueled an amazing rush of sugary stuff. We have the British Med Company, owners of an official British trade charter, seek to corner the market on everything. Opposing them is Pepsi-Fanta, once rivals, now combined after COKE's loss a few years back. Bardilla of Italy is expanding the conglomerate into beverages as well. At the same time Xinjiang Beer and Global Prosperity is trying to muscle in on the cheap beer and cheap soda side of things. It's a loving mess. Instead of a linear mission path we'll have mission cards. This is a draft of what we can expect. I'll probably get a difficulty level or some such on there as well.    Gentle Goons, lend me your ears, lend me your eyes, lend me your poopsock. For today we forge a new Hired Goons Destiny! Pick your core supplier. Pick an option from that supplier (or don't). 3d Print Procurement will occur after this phase is done. Back to your Hired Goons!
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Oct 17, 2017 22:00
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Tomcats and Warthogs. You all hear that sound, right? That’s the sound of my DESTINY calling. Will you answer?
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Oct 17, 2017 22:05
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F-16 & 'Murica Let's go out and do literally everything.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:07
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Gripens and Invisiboat Best capability and the rest can be covered in 3D printing.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:08
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Mirages + Invisiboat Join me in confounding and bewildering our enemies for profit!
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Oct 17, 2017 22:08
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Mirages + Invisiboat
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Oct 17, 2017 22:11
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Bote lobby would like to officially endorse and vote for Gripens + Invisiboat. As always we welcome our members to vote the same. Our dream of a HG Navy will not be stopped!
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Oct 17, 2017 22:11
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I'll also vote K&P, Gripens + Invisiboat.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:13
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Changed my mind a bit (but only a bit). Mirages+Invisiboat
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Oct 17, 2017 22:14
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Tomcats and Aardvarks Tomcats are a solid air to air option (even with missile restrictions), and the Aardvarks are dope as gently caress for air to ground. Plus, loving variable geometry boys
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Oct 17, 2017 22:14
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Gripens and Invisiboat
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Oct 17, 2017 22:15
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K&P, Gripens + Invisiboat.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:17
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Mirages+Invisiboat
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Oct 17, 2017 22:21
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K&P, Gripens + Invisiboat.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:22
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Gripens+Invisiboat
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Oct 17, 2017 22:22
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HereticMIND posted:Tomcats and Warthogs. You know what, I'm willing to compromise. I'll support the Tomcats if I get the Warthogs (especially if we get 4 experimental uber-planes, and can 3D print the numbers we need). VOTE: Tomcats and Warthogs. For those going BROADSTREET, please join: Procurement Plan: Blue Plate Special Let's not split the vote and once again hand the Grippen / Boat folks their bottle!   Quinntan posted:F-16 & 'Murica LostCosmonaut posted:Tomcats and Aardvarks Please join Procurement Plan: Blue Plate Special; this way, we can get SOME of what we want, as oppose to NONE of what we want. ***** Edit ***** For those leaning towards the Soviet stuff, join us, and we'll print up the MIGs to make up the A2A numbers we need! CourValant fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 22:27
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Gripens and Invisiboat Wanna see that boat.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:28
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Apologies, double post.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:32
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So...does this mean we can 3D print Avro Arrows? Asking for a friend. Bacarruda posted:
So...how was the ride on the sub? In other news, i think I might retire Pike from active duty. He's probably going to be doing a lot of thinking about his future, after the losses we've suffered. Might just move him to the end of the line or create a new pilot, but either way, I'd be willing to let someone else take my spot.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:36
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All of you folks who are voting for Gripens and Invisibote do not like fun. We’ve given the Gripens a good run and now it’s time to try new things. Also, this is my DESTINY calling!CourValant posted:You know what, I'm willing to compromise. I'll support the Tomcats if I get the Warthogs (especially if we get 4 experimental uber-planes, and can 3D print the numbers we need). Good call.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:36
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Gripens and Invisiboat
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Oct 17, 2017 22:38
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The Grippen lobby has long opposed the bote lobby. That they seem to support us this this time does not excuse earlier mistakes. I vote for Mirages and Invisibote.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:41
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HereticMIND posted:All of you folks who are voting for Gripens and Invisibote do not like fun. We’ve given the Gripens a good run and now it’s time to try new things. Also, this is my DESTINY calling! Tomcats are overrated and Top Gun is lame. Gripens are like cute little lion-eagle cub chicks who haven't been declawed and thus have a massive punch. I'd vote for them if they were Gripen Cs or even As (although perhaps with a bit more trepidation)--Es are just gravy.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:41
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Gripens and Invisiboat. Then 3D print up some B-52s. The ones with CALCMs.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:43
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CourValant posted:
Obvious Chinese spy. A true company man would know about the blood oath we swore with the Swedes, and that bote lobby has so far been cruelly denied our precious.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:45
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Gripens are a terrible choice until the AMRAAMs are added. I hope all of you voting Gripens are looking forward to a 32x missile cost multiplier after a few missions given our only other BVR option is two Kfirs with their Derbies. And everybody who's super excited about the AESA radars, when's the last time we even turned on our fighters' search radars? We have the Argus for that. Voting Mirage + Invisiboat because that one stands a chance of winning over an actively bad choice (sorry, Cour!) PS Top Gun owns, gently caress the hater
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Oct 17, 2017 22:47
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 11:06 |
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Mirages and Bote. Gripens are a terrible idea without Meteors and SDBs. I'd rather have the Flankers or the Mirages. Or even the tiny handful of Tomcats.
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Oct 17, 2017 22:50
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