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Jesus gently caress we cant recall the fleet! We're at war with a more powerful alien empire bent on our absolute destruction.
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Jan 5, 2018 21:01
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OwlFancier posted:I'm genuinely not understanding what the plan is, like literally as far as I can tell the suggestion is "play all our cards without looking at the board and hope we come out on top, somehow!" We send a blocking fleet to prevent the Terrans, if they start shooting to force the blockade then they started the war while the aliens are at the door. They just nuked their credibility with the censorship attempts... we can control and spin the narrative to the people of the Sol Sys. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 21:02
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Jack2142 posted:We send a blocking fleet to prevent the Terrans, if they start shooting to force the blockade then they started the war while the aliens are at the door. They just nuked their credibility with the censorship attempts... we can control and spin the narrative to the people of the Sol Sys. I really don't see what difference that makes unless you're expecting large scale defections among the terran military. Either we have the capacity to destroy them or we don't. "But they shot first!" doesn't actually make us better at fighting them and I don't see why the apparently quite cohesive military arm of the terran government would defect to Mars. We still have no solution to the MAD problem and as I said, if we wanted to start a war with terra, we could have done that without causing major instability. The primary problem with doing so is not that we wouldn't "win over the people" or whatever it's that we would both suffer major damage to our war materiel in the middle of a war with a hostile alien power. That remains completely unresolved by the current changes. Having a high approval rating on Terra does not magically create ships to replace the ones we stand to lose by starting a war with Terra and we still have massive nuclear stockpiles pointed at each other, and now we also both have an increasingly xenophobic and radicalizing populace who are not going to become less so when we start murdering each other after having just told everybody that there's billions of killer alien crabs out there waiting to eat us and that even the combined forces of Mars and Terra have failed to protect millions of humans from being obliterated by them. What the information campaign is doing is turning all of humanity against their governments because both their governments are seen to have neglected their people and instead blundered blindly into an existential threat to the human race, without at any point attempting to involve humanity as a whole in the decision making, and this is not going to improve when those governments start killing each other's people over a lover's tiff again, without consulting anybody. You're stoking anti-elitism when we are the elite. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 21:28
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So I know the Cold War has been over for a while, but did everyone forget that despite there being many conflicts around the globe between the 1940s and the 1990s, including ones where both the USSR and USA were on opposite sides did not result in nukes flying? It's almost like MAD is there as the Option of last resort, it's not the go-to first response and unless there's some serious belief that the UT is going to be successfully invaded or conquered by Mars, there's no reason why even decisive naval engagements will result in the IPBMs flying as no one wants to no longer be ruling and alive in favor of being radioactive vapor. MAD means Mutually Assured Destruction, if they launch, they die too. So unless it becomes that desperate it's not just unlikely but suicidal to lean towards MAD. Also our supporting of Ceres, potentially indirectly through TFS support and our support of the TFS, could give reason to begin production of those fun MAD breaking <500t AMM stations on Mars that we're producing for "local colony defense" or something.
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Jan 5, 2018 21:35
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OwlFancier posted:I really don't see what difference that makes unless you're expecting large scale defections among the terran military. Okay great maybe we could have done it without creating instability, but the vote not too lost and backing away now and not riding the tiger will accomplish nothing except having a pissed off UT. That option isn't on the table anymore, if your scared of escalation... well then what is your suggestion. You keep saying we can't do it, but are not proposing an alternative.
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Jan 5, 2018 21:36
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If the goal is to take over Terra then I think MAD explicity is on the table and needs to be addressed if you're going to try to do that.Jack2142 posted:Okay great maybe we could have done it without creating instability, but the vote not too lost and backing away now and not riding the tiger will accomplish nothing except having a pissed off UT. I'm aware of that but it doesn't make this any less of a terrible plan and I'm not going to stop pointing out how terrible it is unless it somehow manages to get me killed. Not least because somebody needs to now think of a way to undo the damage that's been done by the terrible plan at some point. And then I'm going to complain about it from beyond the grave even if it does kill me. I'm going to record a whole bunch of complaining and then set it to time delay broadcast them in the event of my death. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 21:37
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Jack2142 posted:I think the problem is the majority of the people not voting for the plan and it was very divisive are now jumping out and saying its a failure... despite it doing exactly what at least I as it's write intended for it to do. Talking about salvaging the plan is ridiculous because it hasn't blown up in our face ffs. We already gave Uranus a independence referendum, they chose to become part of Mars
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Jan 5, 2018 21:39
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OwlFancier posted:If the goal is to take over Terra then I think MAD explicity is on the table and needs to be addressed if you're going to try to do that. Again... we aren't conquering Terra. The Plan has never been recall the fleet and invade Earth. unwantedplatypus posted:We already gave Uranus a independence referendum, they chose to become part of Mars Did we I thought we just got handed it in the Treaty of Titan?
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Jan 5, 2018 21:39
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OwlFancier posted:If the goal is to take over Terra then I think MAD explicity is on the table and needs to be addressed if you're going to try to do that. You do realize that there are levels of direct or indirect influence other than "Utter Rivals" and "Subservient conquered vassal", right? All current proposals for exploiting the DoS proposal involve at most working on a first among equals footing in a greater human coalition or less. At the moment, taking over Terra directly is basically out of the question as we have not the resources, time, or people to force direct rule and we don't want to do that anyway.
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Jan 5, 2018 21:40
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Jack2142 posted:Again... we aren't conquering Terra. The Plan has never been recall the fleet and invade Earth. If you're considering starting a war with Terra over Ceres you're necessarily considering rendering them militarily ineffective. That's definitely what MAD is designed to prevent. If you aren't going to render them militarily ineffective then what is being accomplished? How can you credibly command a nation that can still annihilate you if you don't give it what it wants? Especially if you've eliminated its ability to achieve aims by other means by making its conventional military forces irrelevant. Terra doesn't wave its MAD willy about because it has other options, if you're trying to establish Martian dominance over them then you're taking that away from them. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 21:41
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OwlFancier posted:If you're considering starting a war with Terra over Ceres you're necessarily considering rendering them militarily ineffective. That's definitely what MAD is designed to prevent. We are isolating Terra politically, if they start a war over the right for colonies to self determination then they will lose the conventional war, and be reduced to Earth, although I have no plans for invading. If they go nuclear in response to us defending Ceres Sovereignty, then they die... all of them the Putina/Hardliners/Earth First over a single fleet base. Putina and friends become the worst monsters in the Solar System causing the death of 11 billion + people out of spite of losing power.
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Jan 5, 2018 21:46
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OwlFancier posted:If the goal is to take over Terra then I think MAD explicity is on the table and needs to be addressed if you're going to try to do that. MAD only comes in if we're taking over Terra by invasion or something. We're never going to be in a position to do that. You're thinking too small, the goal is to take over Sol. What we want is a weakened Terra, preferably friendly or non-hostile (but we'll take paralyzed if that's what we can get). The plan as I understand it is to use the fear of crabs we've stoked up to get some sort of federation/cooperation going, with Terrans convinced that they need Mars. e: OwlFancier posted:Terra doesn't wave its MAD willy about because it has other options, if you're trying to establish Martian dominance over them then you're taking that away from them. Terra doesn't wave its MAD willy about for the same reason the Soviets or Chinese didn't. It's Mutual. It's like holding a live grenade in a cramped elevator and making demands. If the rest of the people in with you don't believe you're willing to die your threats don't work. And, well, on this particular point the +/- fanatics is very much a + Anta fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 21:47
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Why will they lose the conventional war? And why wouldn't they have lost if if we just started blowing up all their ships at random? Why are they more or less likely to nuke us because we destabilized their country to start a war rather than just shooting them? More importantly, why will fighting a conventional war not seriously weaken both of us in the face of the aliens trying to murder us all? Why can we afford to fight a conventional war? How is this whole plan not just "fight a war with terra in the middle of our current war with added political damage to everybody"? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 21:48
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OwlFancier posted:Why will they lose the conventional war? And why wouldn't they have lost if if we just started blowing up all their ships at random? Why are they more or less likely to nuke us because we destabilized their country to start a war rather than just shooting them? They will lose a conventional War because their ships are utter crap and their officers are incompetent.
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Jan 5, 2018 21:49
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Not their new fleet.scavy131 posted:So I know the Cold War has been over for a while, but did everyone forget that despite there being many conflicts around the globe between the 1940s and the 1990s, including ones where both the USSR and USA were on opposite sides did not result in nukes flying? It's almost like MAD is there as the Option of last resort, it's not the go-to first response and unless there's some serious belief that the UT is going to be successfully invaded or conquered by Mars, there's no reason why even decisive naval engagements will result in the IPBMs flying as no one wants to no longer be ruling and alive in favor of being radioactive vapor. There is a certain lack of acceptance of MAD being an unlikely result of brinksmanship among my fellow Crabs voters. We have to make the best out of this mess and that involves recognizing the independence of Ceres as soon as they gain full control and deterring the Terrans from taking back control by forming a blockade. We will not fight the Crabs together with Terra. It's time to recognize that and salvage what allies we can, namely the rebels. Also, if the Earth Firsters take control without the hardliners (or even possibly if the hardliners are onboard), they may very well decide to abandon Nova Sol in it's entiriety to fight us for their colonies. If their fleet suddenly appears in Sol our fleet in Ranganui guarding the Pit JP may not make it in time. Our best defense may be to hope the Crabs simply do not find the Ranganui JP. It'd be great if we hadn't been forced to do two things at once, but here we are, and Sol is the more pressing matter as events begin to spiral out of control. RA Rx fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 21:50
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Even if it works out, you've got Terra in complete upheaval and that means you rendered a massive portion of humanity's industrial base nonfunctional in the middle of a war with hostile aliens. What's the plan for fixing that? You need, one way or the other, to get Terra back online and pumping out combat effective ships either through quantity or quality otherwise you've just weakened humanity as a whole. I don't see how you reconcile that with keeping them a rump state under the glorious martian dominion.
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Jan 5, 2018 21:53
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OwlFancier, we might as well risk the war. Earth First and/or Hardliners, whichever ends up in charge, will be worse than useless and an active distraction from the war with the Crabs. We can hope it doesn't come to blows, but we need to take steps to ensure our conventional victory if it does. Once such a victory is hopefully secured we can afford generous terms to avoid MAD. Neither side is likely to fire the missiles that cripple or destroy humanity. We have to take the chance of playing brinksmanship to salvage anything. And if it does come to the extinction of man, then at least we'll have told them so. RA Rx fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 21:58
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I don't disagree that you can't back out of this daft arse idea at this point but I'm still going to call the people who started it pillocks. And I definitely want some assurances that they've got an inkling of an idea about how to actually fix the problems they've caused because gently caress if I know how to do it.
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Jan 5, 2018 21:59
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OwlFancier posted:I don't disagree that you can't back out of this daft arse idea at this point but I'm still going to call the people who started it pillocks. I'd recommend starting by actually reading the proposals made over the past couple pages between the fountains of nay-saying and trying to backpedal against the decisions of the glorious Dogomocracy. At this point trying to backpedal for the sake of backpedaling does nothing but leave us inactive and sounds entirely unreasonable, something that Le Culte de la Raison definitely does not support.
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Jan 5, 2018 22:03
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I wrote the Crabs first part of the plans that Saros combined into Option A, but dog choose option B so lets try to find a way to advance our cause. For that, i d propose approaching Putina with the following plan: 1. We talk to putina to send the main hardliner leaders in a fleet to put down the Ceres revolt. 2. TFS recognizes Ceres independence, we announce to support TFS 3. We launch our offer of a systemwide conference to plan the war against crabs that was always part of DoS, inviting all parties, UT, IC, TFS, Ceres as a seperate entity 4. Putina agrees to that conference, ordering the fleet to halt while the conference lasts: she can agree to the conference while being opposed to Ceres being seen as a seperate entity, but for the good of humanity in its fight against Crabs she gives in to the greater need, putting the issue of Ceres aside for the moment 5. The hardliners would most likely not accept that order and continue towards Ceres, making them rebels to their own government 6. Mars fleet defends Ceres against the rebel fleet, hopefully reducing the power and prestige of the hardliners All this can only happen if Putina agrees to this plan, but i think it is her only choice for political survival. If the hardliners are able to supress the rebellions with Iron fist politics, her whole soft reform approach will be shown as useless and weak and a combination of hardliners/Earth firsters will take over. Hessi fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 22:03
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Feel free to pedal forwards as much as you like and may my incessant complaining inspire you to do so if only to get away from it.
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Jan 5, 2018 22:04
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OwlFancier posted:Feel free to pedal forwards as much as you like and may my incessant complaining inspire you to do so if only to get away from it. That sounds like support for Accelerationism to me! Full speed ahead!  But seriously, at least one person's willing to admit they're just salty for saltiness sake. Good on you for the honesty.To be clear I'm not actually supporting such myself, just putting the positive spin on it. Also I support Hessi's current proposal, along with a mostly independent request to recall portions of the fleet stationed in Ranganui to the Outer Sol system including but not necessarily limited to: Triton Fleet, the Newfleet Dreadnoughts, and at least one of each newfleet Cruiser and DD squadron in Ranganui. 3rd Fleet, and 2nd DD and CA squadrons should be enough to hold a picket in Ranganui and potentially pacify the UT colony there if conflict in Sol does occur. scavy131 fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 22:11
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OwlFancier posted:Feel free to pedal forwards as much as you like and may my incessant complaining inspire you to do so if only to get away from it. You're making me wish crabs first had won so I could poo poo all over this thread bitching about what a stupid idea it was. Stop loving whingeing about the past and work towards a future.
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Jan 5, 2018 22:22
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Hessi posted:I wrote the Crabs first part of the plans that Saros combined into Option A, but dog choose option B so lets try to find a way to advance our cause. Agreed. This is the best seasoning I can think of to make this poo poo sandwich not taste quite so bad. Edit: Also, hold fleets not already in Sol at their current positions at all costs. Personnel civilian and military in all of our colonies are depending on them for defense. Erwin the German fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 22:40
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I'd like to point out that a) we have no call for plans as of yet. b) We don't even have a full intel summary to make plans with. and c) I see it as extremely unlikely that Putina is willing to trust us to any great degree at this point.
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Jan 5, 2018 22:50
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Nick Esasky posted:I'd like to point out that a) we have no call for plans as of yet. b) We don't even have a full intel summary to make plans with. and c) I see it as extremely unlikely that Putina is willing to trust us to any great degree at this point. And we don't trust the UT farther than we can throw it, but we've still signed multiple treaties with them and even saved their civvies from nuclear hellfire, I think Reason will prevail, eventually.
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Jan 5, 2018 22:54
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Pharnakes posted:You're making me wish crabs first had won so I could poo poo all over this thread bitching about what a stupid idea it was. Stop loving whingeing about the past and work towards a future. I'm being sincere in that I genuinely see absolutely no workable solution to this that doesn't end up with us being worse off than we were initially and I also have no idea what to suggest to make it less bad. At this point we've destabilized the political situation on both our planets enough that we're likely going to need to do something stupid and interventionist just to suppress our own political turmoil long enough to have a chance at stabilizing it, but I have no idea what would actually do that short of getting involved in a ruinously destructive war that justifies drastically authoritarian measures to suppress dissent, and I have no idea how we're supposed to salvage something useful out of that in the long run. I guess hope for massive crab strike on Sol, killing billions of people to solve our political discontent because I don't see what else is going to do it other than a major governmental upheaval into something more reactionary. Ordinarily I would suggest that the best way to deal with political problems is to actually devote efforts to making life on Mars better, put more efforts into the terraforming project, devote research to employing our technolgical gains for domestic benefits (aurora I think has an expand civilian economy tech) and work on thawing relationships with terra to try to integrate our refugee population better. But of course this plan involves doing precisely the opposite of all of those things so I guess full jingoism and wars-of-aggression-as-distractions we go! Get the agitprop department working on some "crush the terran dogs" posters and start a war ASAP. Once we've gotten a war with terra over we obviously need to do the same with the crabs, and any other aliens we might meet. We need contingencies to deal with Facility if it takes issue with our new imperial tendencies, alien powers cannot be trusted, after all. So long as we keep finding aliens to kill and subjugate we might be able to keep humanity as a whole under control. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 23:01
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scavy131 posted:And we don't trust the UT farther than we can throw it, but we've still signed multiple treaties with them and even saved their civvies from nuclear hellfire, I think Reason will prevail, eventually. Not from the Martian side of course. We feel that the most reasonable option when faced with an x-threat is certainly to divide our own civilization. I'm thankful that Saros is unlikely to be running this as a pure simulation and he's not going to story kill us for making a terrible decision. We might end up heading the Remnant Colony of Ranganui fighting humanity's last stand against the horrors from beyond time and space though!
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Jan 5, 2018 23:08
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OwlFancier posted:I'm being sincere in that I genuinely see absolutely no workable solution to this that doesn't end up with us being worse off than we were initially and I also have no idea what to suggest to make it less bad. We're actually going by the strongman playbook quite well so far. We've spread fear, chaos, and distrust, we've divided our enemies' camp, we have an external enemy to unite against. Even better, it's a nebulous  , vague and dangerous threat that only we have shown we can protect people from.Now we just need to give people something to work towards, get the people that are asking "what do we do" and point them in a productive direction. DoS has that as creating a federation of sorts, a suitably noble and lofty goal, I'd say. I very much support the Hessi Plan. Terra is too strong to want to be in a federation as anything but the unquestioned ruler, so we need to weaken them. We want to that without too much bloodshed and destroyed ships, so political maneuvering and backstabbing are just what we need. Anta fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 23:19
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We could've invested in some nice friendly terraformers. Make Mars livable, take the wind out of Mars First's sails. But nope, now everyone is FartCrab Dinner because someone went "You know how we've kind of been getting along with UT and internally just dealt the military faction a huge blow while getting a bunch of good-will with the political establishment? Yeah, gently caress that plan." +/- Fanatics.
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Jan 5, 2018 23:22
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I for one look forward to the bright future of humanity as an eternally expanding murderball hellbent on exterminating all other forms of life. I mean, bright for all the aliens we encounter at least. Briefly.
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Jan 5, 2018 23:27
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It's very unlikely Putina will listen, she's more likely to try a desperate gambit of her own design. But it's all we've got: Plan Hessi, though I suggest we pull most fleet elements in Ranganui back and set up a blockade to make it more likely. Keep in mind the hardliners are right now holding Putina back from bringing the colonies back into line, they won't actually send an expedition fleet until she's gone. RA Rx fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 23:46
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Veloxyll posted:We could've invested in some nice friendly terraformers. Make Mars livable, take the wind out of Mars First's sails. Thankfully that proposal of mine did get the most secondary votes, but I don't think those were really being tallied were they?
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Jan 5, 2018 23:51
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I figured it was an instant runoff where every primary vote that wasn't in the top 2 had their secondary vote applied to one of those if applicable, otherwise they didn't get counted. It was pretty obvious early on that Crabs First vs. Dom of Sol were going to be the final choices. It makes sense since both of those have the highest likelihood of ship combat, which is the only thing everybody in this thread can agree on.
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Jan 6, 2018 00:33
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Guys, we want Putina down. You all seem to think that the hardliners are just gonna waltz into power and have total control to resume Daddy Putin's space imperialism? Do you think that a coup by hawks is going to calm down the isolationist earth first people? It's gonna be the exact opposite- if they seize power and try to immediately play hardball with us, earth will explode in unrest. We need to guarantee Ceres and dare them to do something about it. We created a crisis- now let's exploit it. Backing down now is surrendering. punched my v-card at camp fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Jan 6, 2018 |
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Jan 6, 2018 00:37
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I'm not sure that earth first is really going to work as an isolationist movement given that Earth is facing resource exhaustion and that's the whole point of space travel. Supremacist yes but isolationism wouldn't work as a political ideology when the game literally says you're going to have mined all the stuff in about 100 years. Actually do we have the timers for earth's TNE depletion?
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Jan 6, 2018 00:42
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OwlFancier posted:isolationism wouldn't work as a political ideology when the game literally says you're going to have mined all the stuff in about 100 years. Isolationism doesn't have to really make sense as a political Ideology and usually it doesn't. Who's to say the Earth Firsters aren't like the Pro-Brexit voters who just wanted out of the EU regardless of the penalties or issues that would follow.
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Jan 6, 2018 00:53
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If I recall correctly, the genesis of the movement was the collective realization that the UT was using the resources that could be used to fix earth on an imperial project that only brought cosmic horror and hellfire.
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Jan 6, 2018 00:57
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Yeah Earth First wants to take all the resources that the government keeps spending on a bloated navy and jackboots halfway across the solar system and spend them on fixing Earth's utterly hosed climate instead. The hardliners who want to go back to the glory days and conquer everything don't really mesh with Earth First all that well, if any two groups are gonna ally I'd put my money on Earth First and the Reformers because their goals are at least partially aligned.
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Jan 6, 2018 01:01
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Also can I point out that Saros has yet to confirm that earth first are actually assholes and not just radical environmentalists? I know that theory doesn't fit with the ex crab voter's narrative, but until Saros confirms either way its just as valid an interpretation as Earth First being fascists. It's a bit rich for certain posters to accuse the rest of the thread of wish projection when that is literally exactly what you are doing only from the opposite direction. Pharnakes fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jan 6, 2018 |
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Jan 6, 2018 01:07
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