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Crazycryodude posted:Oh holy poo poo, loving Space Illuminati bullshit. We're taking our war hero street cred and going rogue, there're obviously some people that need rooting out on all sides. But the assassins have been here all along. Nothing is true friend 
Strategic Tea fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 18:40
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Getting The Last Station vibes. 😶
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Sep 8, 2017 18:41
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Saros posted:Interlude 10 - A reunion of sorts Maybe I should put on a tinfoil hat, but this makes me wonder if the entire Terra / Mars / IC rivalry wasn't engineered from the get-go. People are always more willing to sacrifice their time & money for nebulous promises of "the greater good" if there is an existential threat looming. What better way for a cabal of visionaries/madmen to acquire influence & wealth than by threatening each other's constituents.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:50
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Crazycryodude posted:Is anybody opposed to forming the Communist Space Assassins to counter the Nazi Space Templars? Yes, because there's zero indication that this is lovely AssCreed fap-fiction and unless Saros says it is, I'd rather it not get folded into it. But that's just me, I'd rather not be Space Hyper-Stalinists but we are.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:53
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Coffeehitler posted:Yes, because there's zero indication that this is lovely AssCreed fap-fiction and unless Saros says it is, I'd rather it not get folded into it. But that's just me, I'd rather not be Space Hyper-Stalinists but we are. I feel like that news report isn't really indicative of hyper-Stalinism. We also don't know THAT much about Martian society other than it being not-white and some form of leftism
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Sep 8, 2017 18:56
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Nevets posted:Maybe I should put on a tinfoil hat, but this makes me wonder if the entire Terra / Mars / IC rivalry wasn't engineered from the get-go. People are always more willing to sacrifice their time & money for nebulous promises of "the greater good" if there is an existential threat looming. What better way for a cabal of visionaries/madmen to acquire influence & wealth than by threatening each other's constituents. Oh it was totally all engineered. In fact, I'm kinda surprised that we didn't notice it earlier. Saros has basically outright said that the Martian Rebellion back in the 20's was engineered by Putin and Friends to take power, we should've guessed that an organization like that wouldn't just disappear after the dust settled. I wouldn't be surprised if the IC's independence was intentional, as well. This sounds like it goes pretty deep, and they know a lot of poo poo we don't.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:56
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Crazycryodude posted:Oh holy poo poo, loving Space Illuminati bullshit. We're taking our war hero street cred and going rogue, there're obviously some people that need rooting out on all sides. Yes. The silly spy bits were the weakest parts of Bgremen's LP. I'd rather not see too much time devoted to it here. I'm happy to have Saros tell the story he wants to. Besides which, so far,Space Illuminati Senator Warcrimes Harris has served Mars well as far as I can tell. As long as those techs make it into Martian hands I don't have a beef with him. Yet. I mean, clearly he's an evil snake. But right now he's our evil snake.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:57
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Honestly Terra seems to demand ludicrous things from a war they neither won nor fought in! Military bases on Saturn and full annexation of Uranus? While they won't even accept us annexing TFS or Jupiter! At most! We can accept that they get Uranus in return for us having a military presence on Saturn and hmm maybe Pluto I guess if you don't have anything else to offer us? (We can never allow space Putin to have military bases even close to the TFS! He will destabilize them and turn them away from us) Jupiter remains IC demilitarized. Titan is TFS with Martian military bases and claims on the rest of Saturn. Harvesters remain TFS. Uranus is given to the terrans in return for Pluto (and them signing this contract) IC is forced to pay us exorbiant amounts of money to compensate for being the aggressors in this war and for damaging our terraformers.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:01
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At least with all the captured war material we have a decent cover for how we developed stealthed box missile boats & shielded dreadnoughts overnight.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:01
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I would hesitate to agree to a Terran presence in the Saturnian system, or Uranus as it provides them too much easy access to our outer system infrastructure in the event they Pearl Harbour us. And lets be honest, with Putin at the helm the first indication of war with Terra will be missiles showing up on our sensors. That being said the fact that they're demanding such a thing means they want us to take them off the table immediately so that they can then demand that if we are being so intractable on these points we should be flexible on the issues regarding extra-solar navigation and colonization rights. Thus it may behoove us to play our cards close to our chest at the start, tell them that all things are possible for the right price and see what they offer in return. Then move from there, potentially agree to demilitarized bases or force/fortification limits in exchange for pluto and more agreeable terms with regards to extra solar exploration. Nevets posted:6. Extra-solar colonization & exploitation by a nation will not signify ownership of an entire system. Colonized planets & moons in excess of 1 million permanent residents become sovereign states, which may vote to join an existing nation at that time. I'd say that we should be able to claim systems entirely, because whilst being able to sneak colonies into Terras back yard might be useful it would also mean that we'd have to spread our forces thinly to protect everything. And would need to commit considerable forces internally if and when war breaks out in order to destroy the mobile forces defending any of Terra's colonies within our sphere of influence. Though by all means potentially ask for it at first, but perhaps be an area where we will graciously give ground in exchange for other concessions.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:18
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Affi posted:Honestly Terra seems to demand ludicrous things from a war they neither won nor fought in! They didn't win? That's news to me. It resulted in the balance of fleet power shifting in their favor until we can rebuild and take advantage of our gains.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:20
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BwenGun posted:I'd say that we should be able to claim systems entirely, because whilst being able to sneak colonies into Terras back yard might be useful it would also mean that we'd have to spread our forces thinly to protect everything. Wholesale annexation of an entire system gives the owner defacto control over all jump points leading into and out of that system. So if Sol only has 2 JP's (Mercury for Terra & Pluto for Mars) we're hosed (by interstellar tentacle horrors). If there is a third JP that we can grab it might lead to a barren hellscape of a system with a pulsar & nothing else, or a red giant that swallowed up all the resource rich inner planets eons ago, etc. Having to possibly traverse a few dozen AU across that wasteland to another JP with every trip to back & forth to a good system will seriously limit initial expansion plans.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:36
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We need to demand to see the JP arrangement pre-negotiation. If there are a bunch of JPs and we both get one in the inner-system, then who gives a poo poo about Uranus. If there's only one inner-system JP and we're stuck dealing with traveling billions of KM to get to anything, then that outer-system territory is still kinda valuable.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:51
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Crazycryodude posted:Oh holy poo poo, loving Space Illuminati bullshit. We're taking our war hero street cred and going rogue, there're obviously some people that need rooting out on all sides. Nazi Space Templars who want to make sure nobody finds out about aliens that could easily smush us for ~*REASONS*~, at that. gently caress these guys with a missile barrage. Of course, given that this is an interlogue and nobody in the fleet actually knows about it yet I doubt we'll be able to do anything until it's too late and Cthulu or whoever is eating the sun.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:53
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Nevets posted:Wholesale annexation of an entire system gives the owner defacto control over all jump points leading into and out of that system. That is a risk, yes. Part of the problem is that we don't know how many JPs there are in Sol, there could be 6 Jump points all leading to full jump chains. One thing we could suggest is that until the providence of the Jump Points are known no power is able to claim them solely for their own. Perhaps suggesting that we share survey data until each Jump point has at least been probed, if not explored out to at least the second system in each chain. Thus assuring that we know neither Earth or Mars have locked themselves into a dead-end. With claims after that point being based firstly on who did the survey. Or maybe even the one who did the survey has first claim but can pass on taking it allowing the other powers to claim it instead. Or some other system, the point being to allow us to claim a decent amount of real estate whilst keeping Terra happy and ensuring we can then defend what we claim relatively easily.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:57
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BwenGun posted:That is a risk, yes. Part of the problem is that we don't know how many JPs there are in Sol, there could be 6 Jump points all leading to full jump chains. Yea, i'm pretty much thinking this, as far as an ideal JP Exploitation Arrangement goes. Probably don't want to be giving up too much so far as Solstuff goes until we know better what the JP locations are. Anyway, my personal list of IC peace terms ATM: 1)IC hands over hardware to replace/fix everything they broke on Mars/Titan/Patroclus, + more for all the civvie casaulties. 2)TFS is independent and soveriegn over Saturn + everything around it, and inherit all IC property left there. They are free to make alliances with whoever they like. 3)War Crimes Trail Demands can be included, but more as a bargaining chip than anything serious. Don't make them force a Battle Of Jupiter or such. 4)IC accepts that Uranus is ceded to Mars for starting this whole mess, precise future disposition TBD. 5)The IC's employees in the Jupter system have the right to nullify their contracts and migrate to Mars/Earth/Titan/Whatever for a year after the ratification of peace. Mars will happily provide shipping. As far as the Terrans go, i have this starting point for negotiations with them: 1)they can have half of Titan's production/one of the harvesters if they're willing to provide appropiate compensation to the TFS for it. 2)They can have a force at Hyperion to guard their harvester, with severe restrictions (numbers, perhaps No Missiles Period, verification required) 3)Discussions on Uranus and the outer system in general IS required. However, we'd prefer to be sure we're discussing with the same information in mind. Perhaps you could tell us how many JPs you've found beyond which orbits?
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Sep 8, 2017 23:22
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Stabilizing jump points is currently a military secret, no? Jump point ownership sounds bad for us since we don't know what's on the other side. But if we agree to it and then start busting out gates, Mars will take control of essentially all civilian inter-stellar commerce. Who wants to buy/build a jump ship when you can just pay the Mars tax instead? Is the fact we set 25,000 civilians adrift in the middle of the war going to come back on us as a PR thing, by the way? mossyfisk fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 23:36
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UT shouldn't be allowed any military forces in TFS territory. It's dangerous, fiddly, and bound to be abused. Worst of all, its a clear violation of TFS sovereignty. Unless UT is willing to allow TFS to set up PDCs on the moon (Luna). That's what UT is essentially asking for here.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:39
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Yeah I feel like the TFS should get the final and really only say in what happens around Saturn. Our job is to make sure their independence is respected. Beyond that, this is their territory and they can do whatever they want with it.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:50
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Grizzwold posted:Nazi Space Templars who want to make sure nobody finds out about aliens that could easily smush us for ~*REASONS*~, at that. gently caress these guys with a missile barrage. Look, all I'm getting from this is that this is probably going to end up with "Triton Fleet vs. The Solar System" and I for one greatly approve of such a thing.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:59
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All these pretty words about respecting the TFS's sovereignty will only hold until we suspect they're leaning Terranwards. We didn't exactly ask before we started firing on the Terran mercs fighting against the IC on Titan. We should remember that the TFS isn't bound to us by any treaties or agreements, and they're only useful when they're in our pocket. They have a moon. Why are we assuming they should control that entire planetary system? Because it's easier to avoid confrontation by letting a 3rd party make the hard decisions?
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Sep 9, 2017 00:04
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:All these pretty words about respecting the TFS's sovereignty will only hold until we suspect they're leaning Terranwards. We didn't exactly ask before we started firing on the Terran mercs fighting against the IC on Titan. We should remember that the TFS isn't bound to us by any treaties or agreements, and they're only useful when they're in our pocket. They have a moon. Why are we assuming they should control that entire planetary system? Because it's easier to avoid confrontation by letting a 3rd party make the hard decisions? this is a good point.
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Sep 9, 2017 00:15
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Nevets posted:Proposed treaty of Titan: If you had just written up six more points, you would be space Woodrow Wilson. #2 - We could refuse to even discuss the fate of bodies orbiting Saturn without a duly-appointed TFS representative in the room. #5, #6 are genius because they bring together on one side Mars, TFS, IC and any UT factions that dream of independence. It's standing up for the little guy w/r/t jump travel. We should play this card. #7 is interesting. It puts us in a double-bind. If Starfleet has to draw the same absolute tonnage from each member faction then UT will always have a large advantage in the Sol system. But if Starfleet draws proportionally from each member navy, then it will be dominated by UT and may effectively become an arm of their navy. The decider seems to be #8 - if we can get agreement on this then absolute tonnage levels for Starfleet make a lot more sense. Letting UT have military bases / space mines in the outer planets is fine. We should't just give it away, but it's fine to bargain off. Their operating Sorium harvesters in our military sphere of influence is just fine, same with military bases.
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Sep 9, 2017 00:29
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An independent TFS controlling all of Saturn is the best realistic option at this point. No way is Terra going to let us annex Saturn, and dividing the system up between TFS Mars and Terra is just setting up a flashpoint that will turn into SW2. Better to fight for the TFS' interests publicly and garner support among the population. Then when they realize they can't efficiently control all that territory who will they turn to and ask for help: the Terrans who wanted to divy it up, or the Martians who said it all belonged to them?
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Sep 9, 2017 00:30
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The PR game is unlikely to bring us real, tangible benefits.
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Sep 9, 2017 00:41
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Re: Motto Suggestions. The Right Men in The Wrong Place
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Sep 9, 2017 00:49
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Tythas posted:Re: Motto Suggestions. The Right Men in The Wrong Place I for one support this as Triton Fleet's official motto.
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Sep 9, 2017 00:50
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No to Terran control of Uranus. Either x-fer to Martian as part of reparations, or vote on independence. No to Terran base within Saturnian system. (though that's a TFS matter, Mars is against it on principle) We get that Terra really wants Sorium. Mars has no intention of starving her of such. Perhaps a tithe/guaranteed supply as part of IC peace treaty. Arms limits on IC navy. + guarantees of sovereignty. Jump taxes for civilian access. Refueling access for survey ships. Full sharing of JP data + planetary body count (mineral reserves may be kept secret). Until we have preliminary surveys on all Solar connected JPs, we cannot reasonably negotiate on exclusivity. There may only BE a single JP out of Sol, which would give defacto control of interstellar space to UT. Or there could be two, and the Mercury JP has limited Sorium, but Mars gets a JP with all the resources. In the interrim, any military expedition to an occupied extra solar system requires notification of classes, numbers of outgoing vessels. Perhaps deploy scouts to each JP to monitor traffic until we can be certain that neither party will be trapped within a handful of systems. As well, provisions for military access in the case of Cosmic Horrors where all powers agree to suspend combative military operations against each other in the event of unexpected troubles.
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Sep 9, 2017 02:20
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Here's what I'd like to see re: jump points and ownership.quote:1. Jump points, whether stabilized or not, cannot be owned by any party. Note: this includes nothing on what the process is to *claim* exclusive ownership. That's a secondary issue. This does a number things for us. Clauses #1 and #3 somewhat mitigates the whole "welp, they're camping the jump gate" problem. (For those unfamiliar with Aurora, going through a jump gate causes "exhaustion" on the other side ranging from tens of seconds to a couple minutes. You are highly vulnerable to being trashed by ships camping the other side of the gate). Clause #2 still allows us to exclusively mine the gently caress out of whatever systems we want. However, because it applies only to signatories, anyone late to the party is fair game (e.g. aliens, a resurgent IC, the TFS if they don't sign now, etc.). It also allows for a puppet state relationship, or a mutually agreed scenario where we "split" a system. Clauses #3 and #4 keeps us from being locked behind a dead-end jump chain. Systems with no inhabitable planets may still have a jump chain that can be developed. They may also have asteroids, comets, etc. with resources we can grab. Clause #5 means that the "end point" of a chain is also fair game. It also means that we get a window in which we can try and gently caress with Terran's chain of ownership (or help prevent us from getting trapped in a dead end) if we can colonize a planet in a system *before* an exit JP is located. The main way this might come up is in a hostile system, where surveys can't be completed until the threats are eliminated. It gives us an opportunity for "to the victor go the spoils". Also, the provision of Clause #3 means that if anyone tries to do this to us, we should be able to see it coming. (Yes, this works in reverse, but hopefully we're smarter than our opponents). Clause #2 and Clause #3 combine to give us protection not just against mineral exploitation but also lovely surveillance activities. Snoop ship pooping around? Trying to sneak a DSTS in there? Better think twice about the ramifications of getting caught. Leif. fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Sep 9, 2017 |
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Sep 9, 2017 02:44
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I agree with Nevets points for the most part. However I think Uranus should be splintered off the IC as a whole as an independent state. If the Terrans want to build a base in the Outer Solsys we can't really say now but push them out of the Saturnine system and to Uranus, I don't think we can prevent them from building a outer solsys base, but I would rather have it be Uranus.
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Sep 9, 2017 02:48
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Uranus only has about 6 million people around it, that's barely enough for a functioning city much less an independent state. We can't let the IC have it, we can't let the Terrans have it, and it can't stand on its own, so really the only choices are convince the TFS to administer it or just take it ourselves.
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Sep 9, 2017 03:06
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With 2 major players left and practically all resources identified the only sensible thing is to draw a line and say "this side is yours / that side is mine". The Sol system is almost fully explored, we aren't going to find any huge resource caches in the kuiper belt. The Wild West gold rush is going to focus on extra-solar finds now, and we can help stabilize the Sol system by establishing clear borders & spheres of influence. Now that all parties know what they are gaining / losing in prospective territorial exchanges and that there is a whole universe to exploit out there tempers will cool and reason should prevail.
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Sep 9, 2017 03:20
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Nevets posted:With 2 major players left and practically all resources identified the only sensible thing is to draw a line and say "this side is yours / that side is mine". The Sol system is almost fully explored, we aren't going to find any huge resource caches in the kuiper belt. The Wild West gold rush is going to focus on extra-solar finds now, and we can help stabilize the Sol system by establishing clear borders & spheres of influence. Now that all parties know what they are gaining / losing in prospective territorial exchanges and that there is a whole universe to exploit out there tempers will cool and reason should prevail. ...I hate how this makes perfect sense since IC we know nothing about the Space Illuminati or whatever they're actually called. Because with our OOC knowledge I can say that this probably won't work out in the long run no matter what we do.
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Sep 9, 2017 03:25
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Dr. Snark posted:...I hate how this makes perfect sense since IC we know nothing about the Space Illuminati or whatever they're actually called. Even without metagaming, we can guess that any arrangement short of unification will inevitably result in war. Our goal is to put off a war until it is either no longer necessary or until we can win.
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Sep 9, 2017 03:30
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Here's a few ideas regarding the outer system: #1: The Martian Federation recognizes the sovereignty of the Titan Free State and its sole jurisdiction over the planet of Saturn and its satellites. The Federation furthermore pledges eternal friendship between our two nations, and more immediately, various materials to aid in the reconstruction of Titan. (Oh dear, what are all those ship-grade weapons and prefabricated PDC parts doing in this shipment of reconstruction materials?) #1.5: Since the TFS maintains sovereignty over Saturn the matters of UT basing and sorium mining there is their jurisdiction, however the Federation is against the base on principle since it threatens the sovereignty of the young nation. #1.6: If they push it, try to limit it to something small like an unmanned DSTS and ammo+fuel dumps guarded by some soldiers on one of the outermost moons. No PDCs or facilities requiring population to run. #2: As part of war reparations, all IC infrastructure in the Uranian system is to be repossessed by the TFS. The workers there are free to either join the TFS or to migrate, free of charge, to some other nation. #2.5: As recompense for their humanitarian efforts as well as a sign of friendship (yeah right) the Martian Federation and the Titan Free State will allow United Terra to have nonexclusive mining rights to Uranian sorium as well as the right to set up a fleet base on Titania to guard their mining operation, including maintenance facilities and a shipyard, provided they do not possess the capability to maintain ships above 5000 tons displacement(actual number subject to negotiation, but not too high), but not including Planetary Defence Centers. #2.6: Why yes, all those heavily armed men and PDC barracks on Titania were definitely part of the IC and not shipped over from Neptune or anything.
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Sep 9, 2017 03:43
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I think Terra is only playing "nice" because of the Sorium, if they actually got in a war with us at this point, even with whatever stockpile they have built up, I think they'd run dry before they could complete it. While I recognize that we can't get out of some part of the deal that gives them the ability to maintain that stockpile, anything else we put on the table we should be nearly immobile on. We know that the second they find that extra-solar base of fuel, war will be brewing, so giving them any further help just doesn't seem wise to me.
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Sep 9, 2017 05:33
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I don't see why people are so adamantly opposed to Terra getting Uranus. In my opinion, that's a strategic win for Mars. Right now, Earth's fleets are entirely concentrated on Earth and its environs and pretty much unassailable by Martian fleets. Making them split their fleets opens up the possibility of defeat in detail, and controlling Uranus would force us to further fragment our already fragmented fleet. Furthermore, it is absolutely 100% inevitable now that they have Jump-capable explorers that they will find a Sorium-rich gas giant. Denying them Uranus now doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Use Uranus as a carrot on a stick to get extra-solar concessions out of Terra. Basically, I don't think Mars could defend Uranus anyway, and giving it to Terra would both spread their fleet out making them weaker at any given point as well as give us political capital to spend on much, much more valuable things. And it's not like we can actually deny them Sorium in the long term, so unless you expect to go to war with them soon, there's no point denying it to them now. Zurai fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Sep 9, 2017 |
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Sep 9, 2017 06:02
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Nevets posted:Proposed treaty of Titan: The thing I like most about this is Starfleet. Or more accurately, the Interstellar Police. It adds an interesting twist to the traditional cold-war story that is shaping up.
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Sep 9, 2017 06:36
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as far as the whole Terran Terms thing goes, my general line of thinking goes as follows for insystem stuff: 1) The Terrans really really want a source of Sorium that a) is under their control to minimize price/embargo type dickery. and b) not likely to get blown up within an hour of them getting into a war with us/TFS. 2)To get 1), their options, both of which they're shooting for are either them getting Uranus in full to have as their private Sorium source ala what we had on Neptune prior to this war, or trying to get a big rear end share of Saturn and plopping down a military base down to protect it. Jupiter too, i suppose, but that really seems like something that'd require trying to completely kill off the IC, which would lead to having to eat a fair amount of bloodshed and Martian yelling about wanting a share of all the stuff on Jupiter. 3)If forced to choose, they probably much prefer to get Uranus, even if its further away. Them having a little private base out there seems a lot more palatable than having to deal with the headaches of being in knife-fight range on Saturn. A share of (compensated)Saturn fuel production still seems like a good bargaining chip, though, even if we/TFS don't grant basing rights. 4)I personally don't think that Uranus is a fatal concession to us if we get good terms out of UT for it. Particularly if we get them to agree to us having a snoopship there. We can still try to get the rest of the outer system as our SOI. 5)That said, we can make it very clear to the Terrans that discussions on them getting Uranus and other non-Saturn adjustments start after we get info from them on very rough locations for the various JPs they've found. We don't need precise details, just number of JPs Inside The Belt, Outside The Belt, Outside Saturn/Uranus/Neptune Orbit, etc. We very much want a good idea of the strategic value of what we're negotiating over, and this is the big X Factor.
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Sep 9, 2017 18:32
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We need to consider that, presuming UT knows where most of the JPs are located, they are going to want control of the area around them. I'm wondering if they know that there is a JP (and maybe even a good JP) around Uranus, which is why they are asking for that over Jupiter or Saturn.
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Sep 9, 2017 19:18
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