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Even now that we know these platforms exist, I'm sort of at a loss as to how we can deal with them in the future. They're small enough that nothing can spot them until it's too late to avoid getting murdered by a swarm of missiles. And they're dirt cheap enough that IC can just spam them and get more missile tubes than our entire force has, so point defense is futile. We need a way better frigate class with longer reach; between these platforms and the enemy fighter tactics, the hubbles simply can't do their intended job. Fray fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Aug 2, 2017 |
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Aug 2, 2017 20:09
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I'm really hoping the Aurora guy makes progress on the C# upgrade. He's talked about how he wants to make beam weapons a lot more viable relative to missiles. At the very least it seems like beam fire control ranges need to be increased by a lot. As it is, even max tech fire controls can't get anywhere near the range that high end weapons are capable of.
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Aug 4, 2017 18:39
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I'd also like railguns to get a role beyond just "dogshit tier PD in the very very early game."
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Aug 4, 2017 18:48
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There's no such thing as too much PD. Missiles and missile defense are everything.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:21
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If Earth's fighter wings are missile-armed, then we'll need PD. If they're close range beam fighters, then gauss-armed PD ships and our anti-fighter corvettes and frigates should do just fine against them.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:38
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Hessi posted:Definitely yes. Getting any ships from Neptune before IC arrives definitely isn't possible. Saros said on discord he'll make a post tomorrow detailing what we can capture. He said we can expect to capture ample ammo stores, however, including S2 missiles to load in our Martian ships. I'll only consider fighting another battle for Saturn if we can capture the surviving PDC and orbital platforms and get them operational. Otherwise we should go the Sherman option and gently caress off. We won this battle by the skin of our teeth and the fleet is in pretty terrible shape.
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Aug 10, 2017 00:58
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GunnerJ posted:1. Topple Yup. Those of you going all gung ho and donning tricorns to help the revolutionaries need to remember that an outside power is backing them, and it's not us. And as soon as it broke out an Earth BB squadron started heading right for Saturn. Almost like they were expecting this! Here's what's going to happen if the revolutionaries get control of Titan: The Terran fleet is going to arrive in the Saturn system, and the leaders on the ground are going to welcome them as friends and liberators because they're Terran stooges. Earth will recognize the revolutionary government as a protectorate of some sort, declare that they're here to defend its independence, and tell us to gently caress off. If we say no, they'll blow right through us like tissue paper. Now our most dangerous rival has a major presence in the outer planets. Not good. So let's Topple and get our own stooges in power instead. Failing that, burn it down so no one has it.
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Aug 10, 2017 05:18
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LLSix posted:We clobbered the IC in beam range. Beam shots do more damage than ASM because they have about 0.1% of the range of an ASM. A beam ship doesn't get to do anything if it dies to missiles first, which is what usually happens to them. And while the finale of this battle was a beam charge, it was enabled by us wrecking most of the Titan defenses with missiles first. We only resorted to it when we ran out of missiles. Also, I'm very skeptical of the idea that SB can just swoop in and improvise a counter-AstroTurf operation in a few days. People keep thinking of Earth as passive when they're very much not, and they are way more prepared for this scenario than us.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:06
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HiHo ChiRho posted:The big thing is that we are not at war with Earth. If they come we will see if they're going to deal with us or dick with us. We may very well be at war with Earth thanks to the sensor incident at Pluto. It's important to remember that Pluto is Earth's sovereign territory. We've put warships above it and seized a Terran facility with armed troops, so if they want to come at us they have ample justification. So if it's "dick with us" then Earth straight up gets the Saturn system, cause a BB squadron plus escorts will go right through us without slowing down. Given that we can't stop them, they have little need to seek a deal.
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Aug 10, 2017 19:25
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Ok, we've been hashing this out on discord and we have an idea that appears to have consensus. We really, really don't want a war with Earth right now, and if they come to Saturn guns blazing we won't be able to stop them. What we do have is control of the sorium harvesters and the ability to destroy them at a moment's notice. This is our bargaining chip. It's time to play some realpolitik. We propose to approach Earth with the following terms: + Earth and Mars will arrange joint sovereignty between us over the Saturn system. + Saturn's sorium production will be split 2:1 in favor if Earth. + Mars will back the revolution on Titan, and recognize the revolutionary government, in exchange for control of all former IC naval facilities. Earth will recognize the new Titan government and our access to these facilities. + Earth may have control of Rhea or some other moon and construct military facilities on it and station military forces there. In exchange, Earth will recognize the Kuiper Belt as within Mars' sphere of influence (this includes Pluto but try not to draw attention to that). + Earth and Mars will agree to keep their forces in the Saturn system at (roughly) equal tonnage. This means most of that big BB fleet of theirs needs to turn around and go home. + Each side may station up one brigade of garrison troops to guard our respective facilities. No offensive troop units are allowed. + Earth and Mars agree to militarily resist any attempt by IC to retake Saturn. Earth will not interfere in our war beyond that. + If Earth isn't interested in a deal, they will get nothing but wreckage and the middle finger (don't actually come out and say this but diplomatically imply it).
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Aug 10, 2017 21:10
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Nick Esasky posted:I have 4 responses to those proposed negotiation terms: 1. As others have said, this is hardly the first time we've been involved in major decisions. It was we who decided to start a friggin war by intercepting an IC convoy. 2. It's true, if anything blows up the negotiations it'll be Pluto. But our first round of proposals will go for it. We still have negotiating room to soften it to some sort of tech sharing agreement. 3. Martian ships are more powerful ton-for-ton, so an equal-tonnage presence gives us the upper hand. We will also get all the existing naval facilities, so Earth will have to build from scratch before they can project significant power here. We'll be the ones with a gun pointed at Earth's only source of sorium. 4. No.
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Aug 10, 2017 21:48
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I figure we'll have to deal with whatever IC counterattack is coming first, but afterwards we can see about peaceing out with them and turning our attention to extrasolar matters. Make them recognize Saturnian independence and maybe even peel off Uranus if 3rd Fleet whomps them hard enough. Earth should readily agree to protect Titan from an IC return since the last thing they want is a return of the sorium cartel. Of course, we may want to exclude them and make a bilateral protection deal with the new government in order to maximize our influence going forward.
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Aug 14, 2017 17:23
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tatankatonk posted:Did we really just kill or injure 2 million people :thatsaurora:
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Aug 17, 2017 21:57
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Z the IVth posted:Can terraformers work quickly enough to be used in battle? You probably don't want to try it while stuff is still defending the planet, but even the slightest amount of poison gas in the atmosphere can cause a significant increase in the colony cost and cause mass die-offs if there isn't enough infrastructure. Doesn't matter if the air already wasn't breathable, though. The die-off won't be instant either, the annual growth rate will just go negative by a lot.
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Aug 17, 2017 23:08
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We don't even need a precise attack direction in order to lay a minefield. They have to enter the Saturn system to use their heavy beam combatants, so we can just drop mine pods above rhea and titan. IC simply won't be able to avoid them
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Aug 18, 2017 17:36
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Well there are no meyers in the enemy force. Looks like we're the ones with box launchers this time around. As for hiding behind celestial bodies, that's not handled in the game but saros has been willing to fluff it a bit previously. We're going over ideas for fuckery and tactical plans on discord right now. A few more details given by saros over discord: + We can assume the new Henry Ford and Feynmann classes are fast, close range beamships. + The Jupiter force likely has a new, meaner edition of the Koshkin. We don't see it right now cause it's too small. + These new classes were being held up by IC for a surprise counterpunch but our successes have forced a premature deployment. + We can assume that IC knows exactly what our force looks like. It appears IC isn't going to wait for their whole fleet to arrive before attacking Saturn. The BC group is running ahead with a significant speed differential. We expect the BC group will meet up with the Uranus group, then attack. Total attack force looks to be: 2x Henry Ford (unknown BC, expected beam combatant) 2x Richard Feynman (unknown cruiser, expected beam combatant) 3x Einstein missile cruiser - We need to stop the one fleeing Saturn before it links up with the rest. Unknown number of Koshkin Mk.2 (beam destroyer) Overall, the enemy has a huge amount of beam firepower but not much missile throw weight. They are also outrunning their FSVs so they won't have the missile stocks for an extended exchange. We expect them to come at us and seek a beam fight as fast as possible, which they will likely win if we have not sufficiently hurt them with missiles. We've considered preemptive attacks on the separate forces before they can combine, but the time and distances involved don't support that strategy very well. We're thinking we need to begin harassment as soon as possible with the captured box fighters and wear them down exactly like what they did to us. Long range sorties will hopefully catch IC with their shields down and cause some major damage. We'd focus on reducing their PD capability with these attacks. When they arrive at Saturn we'll use our missile ships, including the captured box launchers, to damage the enemy beam forces as much as possible. Concentration of force is essential here - penny packeting our missile assets into small salvos will make them less effective and probably lose us the battle. Between our PD cruiser, captured PD orbitals, and new frigates, we think we can stop the enemy's return missile fire. Hopefully after the harassment and missile barrages they'll be worn down enough for us to take them in a beam fight.
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Aug 18, 2017 20:37
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CoffeeHitler and I have been theorycrafting the Type 8 design on discord. We've found that a railgun based design will be vastly superior to the current gauss-armed one:code:This above rail design has a mean shootdown rate of 1.88 missiles, a 135% improvement, while also being slightly cheaper. This might be counterintuitive. Normally you see gauss used for PD roles on larger warships, because they have a high ROF and can be turreted. Railguns also have a high ROF but cannot be turreted, which normally makes them unsuitable. However on a PD fighter you rely on the ship's speed rather than a turret to give the tracking necessary to hit missiles. This means gauss lose their advantage and railguns become superior due to higher base accuracy and ROF.
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Aug 24, 2017 23:34
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Kommando posted:The laser Type 8 is a better strike craft and has much better range than the others (four times) , same rate of fire, cheaper, less crew and better supportability. Keep in mind that railguns and gauss both fire multiple shots per "fire," so their effective ROF is vastly higher than lasers. So the laser Type 8 won't be useful as a PD craft but yes, it would be good for antiship or antifighter work.
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Aug 25, 2017 00:29
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The defense of Saturn is happening on Discord right now.
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Aug 31, 2017 15:56
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How are we on damage? Did the Koshkins get new engines?
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Aug 31, 2017 18:15
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Gonna be a wild one...
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Sep 5, 2017 04:11
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Well we're in no position to stop them from subjugating Saturn if that's what they have in mind; even at full strength we wouldn't have been up to it. We can just hope that they are satisfied with an independent Saturn now that the harvesters are secure.
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Sep 5, 2017 15:07
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We do need an update on our efforts to de-Terranize the TFS. It's gonna get hairy if Earth arrives and a faction of TFS declares Earth their new strongdaddy. If TFS is firmly in our camp them I don't see Earth trying to occupy Titan. TFS now has a ton of captured IC army gear so subjugating them would be a pain in the rear end. And as far as we've seen there aren't troop transports in the Earth fleet.
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Sep 5, 2017 16:46
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Nevet's plan is comprehensive but there's no way the Triumvirs will agree to it, or to anything that involves war crimes trials. They'll roll the dice on a battle for Jupiter before that. Our dealbreakers should be replacing ours and TFS's destroyed yards and then some, recognizing TFS, and scrapping the boomers. We should keep in mind that the disposition of Saturn isn't actually up to us; that's all TFS sovereignty. We and Earth can each negotiate with TFS to try to get a favorable situation, but it's up to them ultimately. And that's not a bad way to go about it, since we have a lot of good will built up with TFS. I don't see TFS being comfortable with the Terrans right on their doorstep right after they just got done throwing off another authoritarian power, and they may in fact trust us with basing rights to keep them out. We can advise TFS that letting Earth have a stake in the sorium production will help keep them satisfied and protect their independence in the long run. I don't see Earth giving up Pluto. In fact we already brought that up earlier and they rebuffed the idea. Uranus is kind of a wild card. We don't want Earth getting a hold of it and placing a fleet base in the outer system. Let's see if we can satisfy them with a sorium stake in Saturn. We can also bilk IC some more in exchange for steering Earth away from carving up IC territory. Fray fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 18:12
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B This one is a no brainer.
Fray fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Sep 10, 2017 |
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Sep 10, 2017 01:06
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Honestly, if we net Uranus from this deal we should be sitting pretty for sorium for a while. I'm interested in getting more of the other TNEs to boost our manufacturing.
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Sep 10, 2017 04:54
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Also infighting and distrust are, you know, fun.
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Sep 11, 2017 17:58
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We... might want to have a chat with Facility.
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Sep 12, 2017 01:36
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Dr. Snark posted:That would be in cryostasis. Yup. Pretty sure the rapidity of Veloxyl's jumps had something to do with it. This didn't happen the first couple times, after all. We need to play around with it and figure out the limitations.
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Sep 14, 2017 04:58
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Survey the new system. No point in finding JPs that we'll just have to share with Earth. Don't piss off Facility.
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Sep 14, 2017 16:12
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The Discord conclusion is to waste time and beat them to colonizing, which we can probably do since we have gate tech. Then we just give them the finger and say it's ours. We need to get them away from the planet in the meantime though. Let's do dinner and demand that the planet be left alone until a settlement is reached.
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Sep 18, 2017 16:55
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Well, we have no marines in system and our marine ships are too big to use the current jump drives.
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Sep 18, 2017 22:58
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If it's not obvious, the Discord crew got to see this stuff about a week ago and has been furiously theorycrafting. Here's a proposal of our high-level ideas so we can design to a coherent doctrine. Composition -We mainly use tenders for fleet jumping so we don't have to burden warships with massive drives. -The main combat force consists of 9,900 ton heavy cruisers. We need CA designs for a pure beam combatant, a primarily or solely missile-based design (I'll let others argue over which, I honestly don't care), and gauss PD. An AMM PD cruiser is also a possibility. -Antifighter missile frigates or DDGs provide screening against fighters and FACs. We can probably just modernize the Hubble II, frankly. -A 9,900 ton escort carrier. Modernize the Phobos and fix the Type 009 by giving it a railgun. -A long range, fast corvette for commerce raiding. -Miscellaneous support like an updated Gale, FSV, etc, that can use our jump tenders. -A 17,000 ton general-purpose Dreadnought. It won't be able to use jump tenders so we intend it for operations in Sol only. They don't leave the barn unless poo poo has gotten Really Real (or we just want to have fun with a big fuckoff ship). Speed Standard -4 kkps for the general fleet speed. This would be missile boats, support ships, carriers, transports, etc. This will be our usual strategic speed. -Beam combatants go somewhat faster for closing range or kiting. Missiles -We propose going to S3 as our standard antiship missile size, with 100Mkm range. We have a design with good accuracy and higher damage than our current S2.
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Sep 20, 2017 06:32
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I figure cryo can be handled just fine by FSVs and jump tenders.
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Sep 20, 2017 15:07
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I have a rail interceptor design of my own. It contrasts with TT's by giving up the armor and shields for pure speed. The core concept of a rail fighter is to maximize the speed since that's the source of your tracking, and therefore your PD capability. Against 20k missiles, this design has a mean shootdown rate of 2.1/shot. Protection is then derived from speed and the ability to provide highly effective Final Fire PD against antifighter missiles. High speed also makes intercepting enemy bombers much more likely. Unfortunately, it's not very possible to cram in both an antifighter sensor and a missile sensor. I propose that we combine with AWACS-mounted missile detection when away from the fleet so the fighters can cover themselves with Final Fire. When the fighters are with the fleet, they can simply share the sensor on our bigger PD ships. code:Fray fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 16:20
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VanSandman posted:How does one set up manufactories and infrastructure anyway? If we get a self-sufficient military base with manufacturing capabilities and the ability to pump out ships beyond the jump point, we'll have serious control over the system. Are AI systems a possibility? It takes a while for colonies to become both significant and self-sufficient. Initially you just have to bootstrap it by shipping in factories and minerals, or mines to produce minerals locally. Once you reach a decent level, you can start growing from local production. However, population is in turn limited by infrastructure depending on how habitable the world is (the purpose of terraforming is to reduce infrastructure needs per population). Fortunately the worlds in Rangi are pretty good and amenable to terraforming. For a pure military base we just need some maintenance facilities, some defenses and sensors, and perhaps a shipyard. Yards and maintenance facilities require some population though.
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Sep 20, 2017 17:06
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Gates are indestructible so that's not a threat. It takes 120 days to build a gate, and two way traffic requires one on each side. You can send anything through it without limit unless saros houserules the warp daemons
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Sep 20, 2017 19:13
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Ceebees posted:As to the resolution, res80 is optomized for 4000 ton (or larger) ships, which seems perfectly reasonable for a torpedo bomber. A, they're going to launch from about four inches away anyway, so they should be able to pick up anything bigger than another fighter, and B, if they're doing standoff for some reason, anything below 4 kilotons doesn't really rate a torpedo. That's about a "fighter," not a torpedo bomber. If it's meant to engage enemy fighters then yes, it needs significantly lower resolutions.
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Sep 22, 2017 15:47
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Ceebees posted:I do not think it is intended to splat other fighters with a WH14 torpedo. Look at the post again. This is regarding the fighter with S1 launchers.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:33
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Leif. posted:I don't see how you get that? The question was "Should we continue with specialized, or should we develop hybrids?" To be clear, the "hybrid" option simply means that our missile CA design would have a minor laser armament as well. The overall doctrine would still look like what I summarized in this post: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3822055&userid=168857&perpage=40&pagenumber=2#post476574418 Maybe it sounds different, but take my word for it that that's the understanding per the (endless, insufferable) argument on Discord that spawned this vote.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:41
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