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Why is this in D&D? In threads over the years here it’s become apparent that there is an abnormal concentration of us here. However, I’m not going to repeat anyone I’ve seen mention it. It also may be explanative for other posters. Also bunch of you are ignorant of the repercussions of learning differences, beyond the one discussed in this thread. I also am less looking for an ask/tell and more for a discussion. Understanding some of the ways our brains are different have larger repercussions to a wide variety of conversations, and I think that is very much an on topic discussion to have. Something to immediately get out of the way, gifted doesn’t mean better. The longitudinal studies I’ve seen have basically found that we have the same outcomes and wide variety of lives as everyone else, with one exception we tend to make about a 20% higher income at whatever we do. First some ground rules: 1) This is not a thread for: “I took this test on the internet. It says my IQ is 175.” gently caress you, get out. 2) It’s ok to have intensity and anger in this thread. Wait what? One of the things that often defines the gifted is rather extreme emotional intensity. There are a couple of ways to talk about it, Dąbrowski’s language (hyperexcitability, etc), the more recent language of “emotional intensity in the gifted and talented”, or alternate language like Gladwells “The rage to master”. 3) It’s okay to be exhausted. Parenting someone with the emotional intensity of the gifted is beyond tiring. Do you feel like you are drowning, that you need help desperately, if you need to say that. It’s ok to say that. I’m exhausted, my wife is exhausted. So what do we mean by Gifted and Talented: I like this definition: "Giftedness is asynchronous development in which advanced cognitive abilities and heightened intensity combine to create inner experiences and awareness that are qualitatively different from the norm. This asynchrony increases with higher intellectual capacity. The uniqueness of the gifted renders them particularly vulnerable and requires modifications in parenting, teaching and counseling in order for them to develop optimally." Practically a child has meet the criteria of their state’s or district’s program. Usually this involves intelligence testing. Now for anyone familiar with the messiness of IQ testing obviously that means problems. There are inherent biases in the tests (more on that later). But generally most states or school districts recognized giftedness as being a particular number of standard deviations from the mean as expressed by the district or states chosen tests. In general the floor starts at the top 2.5% of children, in other words two standard deviations. A some states / districts define it as children at least two grade levels above their age group. But some states break down the gifted into categories. Gifted at two standard deviations, Highly Gifted at up to three, Exceptionally gifted up to four and profoundly gifted for anything higher. To be quite honest once one starts getting up Exceptional and Profound range, testing doesn’t mean much. Many of these tests have “test ceilings” and stop effectively differentiating somewhere between the highly and exceptional range. Generally the test alone is not adequate and an assessment by a child physiologist is usually necessary too. Some general information on Testing http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm I can comment on what I remember by my own experiences if anyone has questions of what it’s like for a child. I am gearing up for the experience as a parent. At the low end gifted scale moderately gifted or gifted, the biases inherent in intelligence testing can disadvantage children of color, the bilingual, those with additional learning disabilities, and the poor. To make matters worse schools and teachers can prejudge children in these categories (esp. colored, bilingual, poor) and will often press for another diagnosis (ADHD, Aspergers, OCD, etc) because they are failing to recognize what is really going on with the child. Again one of the characteristics of gifted children can be very strong emotional intensity and very high energy (more on that later and why). They can be exhausting to deal with. Early on they can often do very poorly in school because frankly, they are bored out of their minds. The easy road out for a teacher, is to jam them into another category to be medicated or removed from the class. This is a particularly cruel mistake. Even in the case of Profound and Exceptionally gifted children parent generally have to strongly advocate for their children. With the exception of the wealthy, this necessary advocacy on the part of the parents of these children is a pretty universal experience and many of the resources for parents are centered around it. At some point later I’ll probably share my personal experiences and link to it in this post. Asynchronous, More (Mommy and Daddy are so very exhausted ) A good place to start : http://www.davidsongifted.org/Search-Database/entry/A10172 One of these most common traits of the gifted and talent is emotional intensity. We can be more empathetic, more angry, more certain, incredibly stubborn about what we think ought to be, etc. There is greater need for self emotional and impulse regulation. When confronted by teacher and individuals without understanding of these characteristics this can make the gifted child particular vulnerable. These traits also eventually open up the gifted and talents to problems like addiction (especially in adolescence) or depression. Mishandling of the gifted can lead to problematic outcomes for everyone. An example, to attend the public county level congregated gifted only school, I had a multi hour bus ride with about 30 other students. At some point we (a group ranging from second graders to high school seniors) collectively decided that the bus was disgusting for the long time each day we spent on it. A large group brought cleaning supplies and organized a cleaning party. This was squashed by the driver and we were forbidden from cleaning. The response by about 10% of the riders was to bring tools. They began dissembling the bus covertly over a period of about two weeks. Removing bolts and nuts, separating rivets, drilling holes in the floor, taking fishing line and bouncing the bolts off the roadway. Eventually the driver found many seats in the back half of the bus detached at the end of a ride and the wheels exposed to the interior as the covers had been pried up. The bus had to be removed from service for maintenance. In many of the developmental disorders part of the brains function is exaggerated or depressed. A good way to think of the gifted is exaggerated but across the board, just more of everything. Other learning differences might have parts of the brain depressed or exaggerated singly or in combination. This is one of the reasons we can often be misdiagnosed as developmentally disordered. And again think of the particular cruelty of that situation! But this also confronts a parent with a child that can be as (or more) difficult to care for properly than a developmentally disable child! Mistakes can spiral out of hand quickly. Because of the rapidity with which the gifted learn, behaviors become entrenched rapidly. Habituation and implicit concepts form more rapidly and are as hard to unlearn or modify as they are for anyone else. As a parent sometime you get only once chance with a particular issue and the subsequent un-learning or behavior modifying can be quite rough. From Living with Intensity: "Their excitement is viewed as excessive, their high energy as hyperactivity, their persistence as nagging, their questioning as undermining authority, their imagination as not paying attention, their passion as being disruptive, their strong emotions and sensitivity as immaturity, their creativity and self-directedness as oppositional. They stand out from the norm. But then, what is normal?" Not mentioned in that quote but worth mentioning is also sensitivity. Both emotional and physical sensitivity can be exaggerated in the gifted. Again “qualitatively different from the norm” is a good phrase to remember, the experiences of gifted child can be rather radically different from other children the same age this is good example: From: http://www.davidsongifted.org “Ten-year-old Greg Barnes was acknowledged by school personnel as highly gifted. His scholastic achievement test scores placed him in the 99.9th percentile, as did his score on the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scale. On this particular day, when he returned home from school, Mrs. Barnes knew immediately from his despondent expression that the day had been less than ideal."Something wrong?" she probed gently. "Yeah," he said in a tone of thorough disgust, "I got into trouble. We'll have to see the principal tomorrow." "What for?" "I got into a fight with Joe and beat him up." Mrs. Barnes was shocked. Greg was not an aggressive child. He had never reported such an incident before. In fact, he was an extraordinarily sensitive boy who genuinely cared about other people. "What happened?" she inquired further. Greg explained that he and Joe had exchanged insults during music class. Both boys, Greg insisted, were at fault. Later, Joe had cornered Greg by the lockers, taunting him, threatening to beat him up, and egging Greg on to fight. Greg responded by punching Joe, who punched Greg back. When the teacher came onto the scene, Joe was crying while Greg continued to rain punches upon him."Well, it sounds like you stood up for yourself…" began Mrs. Barnes. She was surprised at Greg's immediate and heated denial. "No, Mom - it wasn't that simple." "But wasn't he threatening to beat you up?""No, Mom! You don't understand!" Greg was getting visibly more upset as Mrs. Barnes attempted to convey that she was not being judgmental. Unable to comprehend why her efforts to convey caring and understanding were being met with mounting frustration, Mrs. Barnes decided to defuse the issue. "OK. Why don't you write down what happened and explain how you feel about it. Obviously you were there and you know why it happened better than I do." Greg willingly took a seat at the typewriter and laboriously typed out his story and explanation. An hour and a half later, he handed the pages to his mother: "It all began in third grade..." started the first paragraph. Greg went on to describe in careful detail how he and Joe had met and embarked upon a rocky friendship. At certain times, Joe seemed to want to be friends. At other times, Joe refused to allow Greg to participate in ongoing playground activities. Greg admitted to sometimes levelling "insults" at Joe in retaliation for these playground rejections. Greg listed incidents from 3rd and 4th grades as well as the 5th grade incident that precipitated the immediate problem. For each incident, he detailed each child's behaviours with painful accuracy in an effort to render an objective view of what had happened. Greg's outburst was, according to him, not only a response to the day's happenings, but a reaction to the entire pattern of incidents composing their relationship over the past two years. The argument of the day was simply "the straw that broke the camel's back". The next day, Joe, too, wrote out his version of the fight. He wrote simply, "Greg hit me and then I hit him back and he kept hitting me." Many of you reading this are going to be familiar with the issue of emotional regulation in the learning disabled. You probably have encountered some descriptions of this online ranging from the rather derogatory to mildly offensive. Essentially learning differences interact with and alter the standard emotional responses because emotions responses derive from learned concepts. Again the gifted learn concepts more quickly and make those learned connections habitual and stronger more quickly. Here’s a rough and simplified description of the more recent thought regarding how emotions work in the brain (invisibilia is doing a great series on this, it’s worth listening to). Basically we have four things we feel, satisfaction, dissatisfaction, arousal and depressed activity. The various combinations of those things interacting are what we experience as emotions, but the emotions are learned concepts and can result from learned concepts. When understood this way, why learning differences interact strongly with ones emotional inner life becomes immediately apparent. Personally one of the ways I’ve been dealing with it as a parent is to use techniques for addressing systematic biases. Identify the feeling, describe the response, describe an alternative response that would be more socially acceptable. Understanding these things, the problems with confrontational approaches or power dynamics that the child might encounter outside of the home becomes readily apparent. An adult (say a child care provider) realizing they have been successfully emotionally manipulated and outwitted by a three year old can react confrontationally. It doesn’t go well this is good metaphor for what it can look like: http://imgur.com/3s5qCcU My parents primarily prevented this by carefully controlling which adults I interacted with. After my diagnosis I entered a congregated class room situation (which I think is the preferable way of dealing with the highly and above categories). I stayed in variations of a congregated classrooms until my sophomore year of high school. I wanted to be a swim team captain and to play other sports. Sports were not available at the congregated public school I had been attending. Anyway I think I’ve gotten a good start here with a couple of jumping off points for discussion. Relevant post will be amended to the OP and links to external sites or good posts in the thread will be added as they come up. Eventually I’m going to write another decently long post about predation, the gifted often have a experience of being targeted. That one is going to be less based in facts and research and more personal. It might be a while before I’m comfortable doing it. But I can put you onto the tone. The author of the Miss Peregrines both was a gifted and talented kid in a congregated public school. His metaphor of the hollows looking to eat the children’s eyes, that a good idea of the places that post is going to go when I get it written. Links to websites and good posts possible to continue in reserved post: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3824035&pagenumber=1&perpage=40#post473503557 - excellent post addressing why g&t is special education https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3824035&pagenumber=2&perpage=40#post473512059 - excellent post describing a dual diagnosis Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 17, 2017 19:16
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Jun 17, 2017 19:16
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Brandor are you a JASON Project alum or a G&T/Behavior Mod doubleclass like me? I always wanted to ask other people from G&T programs what their school life was like, because it seems like the entire point of G&T is oddly at odds with the idea of giving everyone a good education, and that often G&T programs, JASON, and behavior mod all had the same purpose of isolating problem students from the rest of the school and appeasing rich/problem parents. Big Hubris fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jun 17, 2017 |
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Jun 17, 2017 19:38
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This poor man has been led to believe by not only our school system but his family that he was gifted instead of some weird neurotic child with above average intelligence and emotional outbursts. Just like let them have this. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jun 17, 2017 |
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Jun 17, 2017 19:42
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Hollismason posted:This poor man has been led to believe by not only our school system but his family that he was gifted instead of some weird neurotic child with above average intelligence and emotional outbursts. Fortunately, I also qualitatively give no fucks harder too. I didn't start the thread this for myself. I started it to think through how I'm going to have to be a parent and because some of you have posted things that are pretty severe misunderstandings in several recent threads. You've let's us know somethings that are physically medically different about you. I ever poo poo on you for that? Well I've seen some of you poo poo on people with learning differences, which are physical differences in our brains. I could just poo poo on them and tell the posters to go gently caress themselves when I see them do it to others. Alternately I could try to redirect it into discussion that educates. This is giving the latter a shot.
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Jun 17, 2017 20:13
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Hollismason posted:gifted instead of some weird neurotic child with above average intelligence and emotional outbursts. I think this thread is posted in objective good faith. Children are products of their environments. The systems in place have check valves for standard deviation. Defining what that standard deviation is might be the key to this discussion. I think its closer in saying that its "more". Intelligence may just be one part of it. More emotions, more intensity. Anecdotally I was exposed to my school districts gifted programs when I was in grade school but I turned away after 6 mo when I found my classmates grating and obnoxious, also my parents had nothing in common with the ultra high achieving and /or wealthy parents whose kids went to the school. As an adultish human I have tried to come to realize I might have been a total pain in the rear end and probably am still a bit on the obnoxious side. Takes one to know one I guess. With that, rather than gifted I prefer spergy ladin sadbrain.
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Jun 17, 2017 20:28
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BlueBlazer posted:Anecdotally I was exposed to my school districts gifted programs when I was in grade school but I turned away after 6 mo when I found my classmates grating and obnoxious, also my parents had nothing in common with the ultra high achieving and /or wealthy parents whose kids went to the school. As an adultish human I have tried to come to realize I might have been a total pain in the rear end and probably am still a bit on the obnoxious side. Takes one to know one I guess. This dynamic was also present in my experience. The small town has a two class congregated program 2nd through 5th that feed into a larger county congregated school that was 2nd-12th. There was a huge economic class difference between the group at the smaller school and the county level school. And yes we tend to be tremondous pains in the rear end, in a set of related ways. It really sticks and is very obvious once you know what it looks like.
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Jun 17, 2017 20:51
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White Snowflake program designed to keep upper middle class families from not totally abandoning public school systems.
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Jun 17, 2017 21:43
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I got stuffed into one of these cos I was some kind of 1% wonder child. Turns out I was just an early peaker and haven't actually gotten better at anything since I was 10. lol.
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Jun 17, 2017 21:46
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BlueBlazer posted:I think this thread is posted in objective good faith. Children are products of their environments. The systems in place have check valves for standard deviation. Defining what that standard deviation is might be the key to this discussion. I think its closer in saying that its "more". Intelligence may just be one part of it. More emotions, more intensity. That's a pretty good way of describing it. I think a major problem in discussing the subject is that "gifted" and/or "talented" is a very polarizing term, not least because it sounds like an unqualified good thing, and it's something that has its own drawbacks too. To make a car analogy: if you put a V8 engine with 400hp into a Lada 2102, but neglected to upgrade the brakes, transmission, suspension and tires, you'd have a car that could go very fast in a straight line if handled just right, but that would probably kill you or break down very fast. Gifted people don't inherently have more motivation, more knowledge, more focus, more skill, or anything like that -- just having a very "intense" brain on its own can cause a lot of problems, in addition to making some things easier. With that in mind, I think a big problem is conflating "gifted" with "high achieving." There are a lot of high achieving people who may not be gifted, and, equally, a lot of gifted people who are not high-achieving. So, yeah, if a G&T program is just a group of kids with good grades and wealthy/connected parents, it's not fulfilling a useful purpose, and whoever's in charge missed the point. There is absolutely no reason to think that whatever collection of qualities or genetics makes someone gifted is concentrated in one ethnicity, or that it's significantly affected by socioeconomic status, so it stands to reason that any such program which has a disproportionately high number of affluent white kids is not admitting kids for the right reasons. There is no doubt in my mind that poor and/or minority kids are gifted at the same rate as the rest of the population, and a lot of them are not being properly identified and supported -- I think that's a huge, huge issue in gifted education that needs to be addressed.
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Jun 17, 2017 21:48
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OwlFancier posted:I got stuffed into one of these cos I was some kind of 1% wonder child. That's another huge problem. There's no reliable way of testing for giftedness -- IQ tests are used as a proxy, but they're also extremely flawed.
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Jun 17, 2017 21:56
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BlueBlazer posted:Anecdotally I was exposed to my school districts gifted programs when I was in grade school but I turned away after 6 mo when I found my classmates grating and obnoxious, also my parents had nothing in common with the ultra high achieving and /or wealthy parents whose kids went to the school. As an adultish human I have tried to come to realize I might have been a total pain in the rear end and probably am still a bit on the obnoxious side. Takes one to know one I guess. This is somewhat similar to my experience, although I was part of my school district's program for several years. It wasn't something that really occurred to me all that much at the time, but it really was a haven for people from upper middle class to upper class backgrounds and not at all somewhere that I fit in. On the whole, I think G&T programs have a lot of the same issues as tracking systems in general. In particular, they devote school resources to students who likely already have advantages. There's something about that that feels like it just fundamentally works against the idea of providing everyone with a solid education and the tools they need to be successful. That said, this is a pretty complex topic and I'm not suggesting that G&T programs shouldn't exist or that it isn't helpful to push certain students harder. I just don't know if the way that these programs are currently implemented is appropriate.
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Jun 17, 2017 22:00
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G&T students fall under special education for a reason. The takeover of programs aimed at them as special needs students by parents of high achievers is pretty terrible. Maybe explicitly labeling them as special education classes instead of using a loaded term like gifted would help.
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Jun 17, 2017 22:12
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I've always been pretty stupid. I remember hating school partly because I was always behind all the other kids at things like math  Well anyways that's my story
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Jun 17, 2017 22:17
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As an adult, giftedness counts for absolutely nothing. You're as likely to end up a crackpot, or a bitter frustrated genius in a menial job, or a depressed alcoholic as you are to end up some kind of world class tail blazer. Gifted students seem to end up imbued with this attitude of superiority that crumbles at the first contact with struggle. Disaffected genuises make good friends though.
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Jun 17, 2017 22:22
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Lol at this nerd who identifies as a gifted child as an adult.
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Jun 17, 2017 22:29
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Being in too many gifted and talented and honor courses all through grade and high school feels like it just made me always way ahead of the regular classes so I could always sleep walk through every assignment and never study if I didn't feel like it so that when I went to college everything felt really overwhelming and I basically farted my way to graduating with super average grades that felt like a failure because I'd never gotten a B before or ever had to actually read the text book to answer a question since my whole life up to that point I'd walked into every class on the first day having already been taught every single thing that would be taught in the class. edit: now I'm a mildly dumb adult I think? Owlofcreamcheese fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Jun 17, 2017 |
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Jun 17, 2017 22:30
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Amniotic posted:Gifted students seem to end up imbued with this attitude of superiority that crumbles at the first contact with struggle. This is the reason why I almost only post in Europol and talk about French politics: it's the only topic I can effortlessly sound hypercompetent about with almost no one able to call me out as a fraud
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Jun 17, 2017 22:45
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Hollismason posted:White Snowflake program designed to keep upper middle class families from not totally abandoning public school systems. got it in one
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Jun 17, 2017 23:03
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I was in a TAG program in third grade. (I forgot if we called it something else at my school). One day a week, I think Tuesdays, I would leave my normal classroom and go to a portable classroom behind the gyms with some students from other classrooms in my small town/exurban elementary school. I think that there was a bit wider of an age spread. I don't really remember the students, and I also don't really remember what we did, other than a few things. The one program I remember is making a pinhole camera out of an oatmeal container. I remember it being more just a time to be creative. I remember at the same time, third grade was the first time I had problems with conventional academics. I remember my normal third grade teacher being upset because I wouldn't learn long division. I remember, or think I remember, a territorial battle between her and my TAG teacher. I don't know what effect the TAG class had on me, there was a lot of other stuff going on in my life, and it might have not done much compared to everything else going on around me.
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Jun 17, 2017 23:06
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I grew up in an upper middle class suburb and we didn't have these classes Like sure some kids took AP courses in highschool or whatever, but they were normal and played sports and stuff there is like a separate special needs department that would handle kids who have emotional problems, and they're basically assigned like a mom to take notes for them and keep them from being huge weirdos, my mom actually works as one of those moms I think she only ever had like one kid who had serious behavioral issues, she does say that the kids she watches tend to be pretty bright.
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Jun 17, 2017 23:20
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How useful do these gifted and talented programs actually end up being? I'd worry that the tend to drive an unhealthy world view and are often poorly taught and administered. I believe in the effectiveness of tracking but it isn't clear to me that these programs are designed in the most effective way and doing something more holistic as mentioned here by Terence Tao would be important.
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Jun 17, 2017 23:20
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My indigo child is special and gifted and doesn't need any schooling as they were born with the mind of someone wiser beyond their years.
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Jun 17, 2017 23:31
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It's odd that you mention intensity and high energy are issue, even though ADHD isn't considered linked to intelligence. Looking for details, I found this article that claims that there is very little research done on prevalence of ADHD among the gifted. Given how this seems to be a thing, I would've thought that there was something to this. The article lists a single Korean study that finds prevalence to not be significantly different and also states that people with ADHD fall on a standard intelligence curve. To keep going with this, it also doesn't seem like "giftedness" masks diagnosis as much as assumed. This population study [NIH link] finds that there isn't a difference in the average detection age of ADHD when compared across low, median, and high IQ's (the study's method of determining gifted status). To segue into a more relavent discussion, I've never been apart of any "pure" T&G concentration programs. What do y'all mean by this? Are they just programs that dump all the "T&G" students into the same school/curriculum? EDIT: Amniotic posted:G&T students fall under special education for a reason. Are gifted programs designed like special education? I mean, I assume some snark, but it also wouldn't be that unsurprising given that "gifted" is more than simply being about high IQ. The study I posted even mentions that there isn't "[a] clear, comprehensive definition for 'gifted and talented'". BirdOfPlay fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jun 17, 2017 |
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Jun 17, 2017 23:37
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CyclicalAberration posted:How useful do these gifted and talented programs actually end up being? I'd worry that the tend to drive an unhealthy world view and are often poorly taught and administered. I believe in the effectiveness of tracking but it isn't clear to me that these programs are designed in the most effective way and doing something more holistic as mentioned here by Terence Tao would be important. Well, a good gifted program will do exactly that. It's not about "a program for the smart kids" or for high achievers. There's AP and IB for that. A good gifted program will purposefully challenge gifted students so that they are forced to experience academic adversity, instead of simply coasting by on their talents. A lot of my classmates complained that they wanted to be out of the gifted program because then everything would be so much easier -- but is that better for the student? Allowing a student to coast by, so that they don't learn proper study skills, and don't learn how to deal with things they aren't innately good at, is no good at all. stone cold posted:got it in one I don't think calling gifted programs "white snowflake" programs is good. That's not what they should be, even if admittedly a depressing number currently are. Minority students are gifted at the same rate as anyone else, but too often are not identified as such (very often owing to systemic racism and other biases). This means they are likely to turn into "discipline problems." They will be accused of cheating if they perform beyond expectations. They will act out, they will get into trouble, and they will be punished more harshly than a white student. We know these things are happening to minority students, largely due to systemic racism, and it should be treated like the crime it is. By not establishing programs to support these kids, we are failing them, and by treating gifted programs as some kind of white affectation, we would all but ensure they can never get the support they need. Where "gifted and talented" programs are used as a club for rich white kids, and they are in far too many cases, we need to address that problem urgently -- I agree. But we shouldn't get rid of the very idea of gifted and talented programs simply because they are often misapplied or mismanaged. Darkman Fanpage posted:My indigo child is special and gifted and doesn't need any schooling as they were born with the mind of someone wiser beyond their years. Really, it's just the opposite. Someone who is gifted, but not educated and challenged appropriately, is going to end up being really, really hosed up. Even with a good program, chances are very good they'll still be pretty hosed up in a lot of ways.
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Jun 17, 2017 23:53
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Osama Dozen-Dongs posted:Lol at this nerd who identifies as a gifted child as an adult.
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Jun 17, 2017 23:56
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BirdOfPlay posted:To segue into a more relavent discussion, I've never been apart of any "pure" T&G concentration programs. What do y'all mean by this? Are they just programs that dump all the "T&G" students into the same school/curriculum? Traditional tracked programs at the elementary school level are separate classes that GT kids are put into by virtue of testing (which is hard to game) or recommendation (which opens the door to the high achieving children of tiger moms and such). At the middle and high school level, there might be courses that are "above" AP in terms of difficulty of qualification, such as seminar classes that are ostensibly about teaching children with vastly different learning needs that instead become prestige classes for high achieving students. Typically these courses are taught by specialist teachers with certification in gifted education, which is a type of special education cert. quote:Are gifted programs designed like special education? I mean, I assume some snark, but it also wouldn't be that unsurprising given that "gifted" is more than simply being about high IQ. The study I posted even mentions that there isn't "[a] clear, comprehensive definition for 'gifted and talented'". Special education covers student needs at the gifted level because gifted students have a challenging set of learning needs. They need to be taught things like attention to detail, perseverance, and self-critique of intuition. They have the capacity to be emotionally manipulative with a degree of skill that is beyond their years. Teachers get training in how to teach these kids, and they really are special needs. Some types of kids typically bored and trouble-making in a regular classroom: those with emotional dysfunction, those with learning disabilities, and those that are gifted. Identifying and teaching the gifted requires the same kind of special attention that all special needs kids require. Good GT classes are designed with the needs of those kids in mind, which is touched on the Terrence Tao article. The needs of GT kids are not at all helped by creating tiny ubermensch that view themselves (and are constantly told that they are) the inheritors of the earth.
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Jun 18, 2017 00:00
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BirdOfPlay posted:Are gifted programs designed like special education? I mean, I assume some snark, but it also wouldn't be that unsurprising given that "gifted" is more than simply being about high IQ. The study I posted even mentions that there isn't "[a] clear, comprehensive definition for 'gifted and talented'". Essentially, yes (or at least they should be). Giftedness is fairly often comorbid with one or more learning disabilities (which is how a lot of gifted students are identified in the first place -- either that, or they were causing too much poo poo). Ideally, a gifted program is not a place for all high achievers, or only for high achievers -- if the class doesn't have a fairly standard bell curve, it should be taken as evidence that it's not being administered properly, either because the entry standards are hosed up or the students are not being challenged adequately.
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Jun 18, 2017 00:04
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BirdOfPlay posted:Are gifted programs designed like special education? I mean, I assume some snark, but it also wouldn't be that unsurprising given that "gifted" is more than simply being about high IQ. The study I posted even mentions that there isn't "[a] clear, comprehensive definition for 'gifted and talented'". I think most schools use the Otis-Lennon School Ability Test, probably pretty much because pearson has a pretty good monopoly on making big deal official standardized tests. But also because it's a mix of IQ test type questions and like 5th grade knowledge type questions. So it's like half measuring how smart a kid is but also 'hey, did you do your classwork" in a way an IQ test doesn't.
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Jun 18, 2017 00:54
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'Gifted' doesn't seem like a scientific designation, and so I'm not sure there's much ground for discussion.
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Jun 18, 2017 02:45
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BirdOfPlay" ="473503041 posted:It's odd that you mention intensity and high enpostergy are issue, even though ADHD isn't considered linked to intelligence. Looking for details, I found this article that claims that there is very little research done on prevalence of ADHD among the gifted. Given how this seems to be a thing, I would've thought that there was something to this. The article lists a single Korean study that finds prevalence to not be significantly different and also states that people with ADHD fall on a standard intelligence curve. Gifted boys specifically between the ages of 4 - 9 , can often get sent to be evaluated for ADHD. After 9 it seems to be a thing they grow out of. I don't think it's the same as ADHD. I got plucked out to get tested for ADHD in first grade, and it coincided with the gifted screening. Until recently I thought a had been ADHD diagnosed too, but examining the record of my IEP that my parents kept, turned out I didn't. The child physiologist my parents consulted, said the following paraphrased " he will be interested in what he is interested in and it will nearly impossible to force him to be interested in something he isn't" I can see how that sort of characteristic could be mistaken for ADHD BirdOfPlay" ="473503041 posted:To segue into a more relavent discussion, I've never been apart of any "pure" T&G concentration programs. What do y'all mean by this? Are they just programs that dump all the "T&G" students into the same school/curriculum? Here's an example of probably the best one in the US (I may be biased  ) : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_View_School BirdOfPlay" ="473503041 posted:Are gifted programs designed like special education? I mean, I assume some snark, but it also wouldn't be that unsurprising given that "gifted" is more than simply being about high IQ. The study I posted even mentions that there isn't "[a] clear, comprehensive definition for 'gifted and talented'". Yes, the parents tend to be exhausted, desperate and constantly dealing with educators that are creating confrontational situations prior to the child being identified. My wife's and my experience is mostly limited to constantly exhausted, as we can turn to our parents that went through it with us for advice, and remember our own experiences.
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Jun 18, 2017 03:04
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rudatron posted:'Gifted' doesn't seem like a scientific designation, and so I'm not sure there's much ground for discussion. Then go with multiple standard deviations from the mean on whatever standardized tests are most appropriate and reflective of the current research. Easy peasy.
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Jun 18, 2017 03:07
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Amniotic posted:A really excellent post First one to link to in the OP
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Jun 18, 2017 03:09
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Osama Dozen-Dongs posted:Lol at this nerd who identifies as a gifted child as an adult. Again dealing with it as a parent. Also it definitely is reflected in adult behavior. He was banned and didn't rereg so I don't feel it's inappropriate to use him as an example, but Negromancer posted he was G&T. That's actually part of what started the ball rolling for me to make the OP for this thread.
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Jun 18, 2017 03:18
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I was in TAG when I was in elementary and middle school, probably because I was already able to read when I began kindergarten and was always a few grade levels higher in reading than my peers, and also quickly demonstrated high math aptitude too. Generally this meant I was being shipped over to a next-higher grade classroom for math, even when it meant busing me between schools. I can't recommend this approach because I feel like it inhibited my ability to socialize with my age group (being frequently separated from them and singled out for special attention/privileges) and the kids in the higher grade loathed me because the younger kid would show up and breeze through their math lessons. I know the latter part after running into and chatting with one of them a few years ago and they confirmed it wasn't just me, they really did resent me at the time. I do feel like schools should probably have something in place for students who are clearly already proficient in whatever skills their age group are being taught, but I'm not sure what that program should look like. It could be the school district I went to just sucked at dealing with it.
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Jun 18, 2017 03:29
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:It could be the school district I went to just sucked at dealing with it. I think some school districts don't have congregated programs, because they want the gifted kids to skew test scores up. There are a couple of extremely well performing school districts in WA, we concluded that was the case for when we were deciding where to dig in and we were examining programs.
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Jun 18, 2017 03:39
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op is a special child
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Jun 18, 2017 03:43
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BrandorKP posted:Then go with multiple standard deviations from the mean on whatever standardized tests are most appropriate and reflective of the current research. Easy peasy. OLSAT test.
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Jun 18, 2017 03:43
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How did you have an IEP? Was it not a 504? Gifted and talented isn't a category for IEPs under the federal law...maybe it was a state thing?
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Jun 18, 2017 03:44
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Hawkgirl posted:How did you have an IEP? Was it not a 504? Gifted and talented isn't a category for IEPs under the federal law...maybe it was a state thing? You can be gifted and talented and have an IEP if you are like, blind or something.
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Jun 18, 2017 03:47
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