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Davin Valkri posted:Chess is a slow game. Chess is definitely not a slow game if played right. Exerting pressure will cause stress in the fabric of the enemy's thread (geddit) and we'll be able to exploit that for an easy victory.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:10
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Chess is definitely not a slow game if played right. Exerting pressure will cause stress in the fabric of the enemy's thread (geddit) and we'll be able to exploit that for an easy victory. ... Davin Valkri posted:Herp is a huge moron. I know--he cost me Leningrad once. Ignore him. Alright, yeah. I see your point.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:12
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We are literally following Invader Zim right now. This is Herp's behaviour in a nutshell: "BOW BEFORE MY SUPERIOR INTELLECT PUNY WHITE TEAM! You're tactics are foolish in the face of HERP!"
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Jul 11, 2017 19:12
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:I'm not educated enough on Chess to draw up plans based upon such contingencies. We need threat assessments of all of these moves in order to keep up our momentum. I don't think it'd be a bad idea for everyone to take a potential White move & look it over for what openings it leaves us (and some thought towards why White would leave us those particular openings). We all ranked ourselves on a scale of 1-10 and were organized into teams based on those numerical rankings. If we can pull our group of 1-5s into the 6-10 range it can only improve our situation. IMO the more we discuss chess strategy the better; even if 99+% of them turn out pointlessly hypothetical, it gets everyone thinking.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:16
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BioEnchanted posted:We are literally following Invader Zim right now. This is Black Team's behaviour in a nutshell: Fixed that. We're a team, we help one another and we take responsibility for the actions of one another. To attack eachother is folly. The only attack we should be making is on their pawn when it takes ours. By moving quickly while things are simple, we can give the impression of our superiority to the White Team. This doesn't have to be real, only perceived, keep that in mind. Our threats too need not be real.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:17
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oldskool posted:I don't think it'd be a bad idea for everyone to take a potential White move & look it over for what openings it leaves us (and some thought towards why White would leave us those particular openings). See, this guy gets it. Focusing on a few roles and ideas helps gets the 1-5s such as myself into a position whereby we can help the whole team. If we can have a standing order plus a series of hypotheticals and contingencies in place, we can move quickly and adapt to many different lines that may be played by the enemy. It's not like I'm saying "hey guys let's enforce a hierarchy okay i'm king you're pawns I'll tell you what to do", it's let's get ourselves into the best positions we can be in to help the whole team.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:19
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Well the problem in this case is that White has quite a few moves available to them. It would be nice if they took our pawn and completed our Scandie but odds are the better White team members will see how that's a bad idea and will move up another piece. So what's it going to be? -D pawn: A rather predictable move but a time-honored one that would free up both of White's bishops. -C Knight: Threaten our pawn and protect theirs at the same time, which would encourage us to move a piece to protect it or capture the opposing pawn in exchange for losing our own. -F Bishop: They could try to check us early to force us to move a piece, but this could easily be blocked by a pawn that would also reinforce our position. I think those three are the most likely moves we're going to be seeing from White.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:32
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Since the issue has come up in all the threads: I will only call the vote early when a majority of all players on a team vote for the same move. This means 10 players out of a total of 18 on each team. My thinking is that you would all rather keep the game moving forward in a situation where it is extremely unlikely that the balance will be upset (as it would require everyone who hasn't voted to vote for another option, as well as at least one other player changing their vote). I'm certain this won't be an issue later on when we move out of book openings and the decisions are more contentious. However, if any of you feel very strongly about this, I'm more than willing to change this policy! 
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Jul 11, 2017 19:52
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This is kinda cool, feels like being part of a neural-network or something - a bunch of nodes working together to hash out every possible possibility and come up with the objectively best move. We don't need the chess programs, with how hard we nitpick the smallest move for mistakes, we are one.
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Jul 11, 2017 20:11
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Dr. Snark posted:poo poo, now I'm wondering what took White so long to decide on which pawn to move forwards. We ended up agreeing on the Scandi so quickly in comparison. Speaking as someone who doesn't understand chess beyond how the pieces move, this phrase is hilarious to me when we're at a point where the only moves made so far have been two pawns moving forward.
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Jul 11, 2017 21:25
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chitoryu12 posted:Speaking as someone who doesn't understand chess beyond how the pieces move, this phrase is hilarious to me when we're at a point where the only moves made so far have been two pawns moving forward. 
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Jul 11, 2017 21:36
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chitoryu12 posted:Speaking as someone who doesn't understand chess beyond how the pieces move, this phrase is hilarious to me when we're at a point where the only moves made so far have been two pawns moving forward. The real Dark Souls begins here.
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Jul 11, 2017 21:40
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oldskool posted:I don't think it'd be a bad idea for everyone to take a potential White move & look it over for what openings it leaves us (and some thought towards why White would leave us those particular openings). Also, it's probably a good idea to do this, even as we all are guessing at white's next move. The next move I feel is either going to be the capture or e5 or d4, that's pretty much the normal gamut. They could try nc3. That pretty much exhausts the reasonable responses to avoid the scandinavian defence.
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Jul 11, 2017 22:26
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 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 You have 24 hours to decide on a move.
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Jul 11, 2017 22:45
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Looking over potential moves it does look as though completing the Scandinavian defense is our best move. Trying to paralyse the enemy with the bishop would put him in harms way too easily, the knights movements would either be useless or giving them directly to the pawn, and the longer the pawn lasts there the closer it gets to checking our king. Let's complete the Scandinavian defense and go Qxd5
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Jul 11, 2017 22:51
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Qxd5 is the only way. We get a queen out and we know exactly what they're going to do in response: Nc3, or Knight C3. The issue is what we do in response to that move: this will determine the game. Do we go with the pin, or do we go with another more defensive move with the Queen? I personally advocate a trade of Queens ASAP, because if they don't have a Queen and we don't have a Queen, it's a much more predictable and level playing field and that is what the Black side needs.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:08
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Might as well complete our opening with Qxd5 if White is so willing to help us set it up.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:13
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Wait. What if it's bait? They may have a plan to deal with the Queen other than the obvious Nc3 move. We need to figure out how we're going to deal with Nc3 and how we deal with any other potential anti Queen D5 moves. Is Qxd5 actually worth it? I'm not rescinding my vote yet, just urging a bit of caution before we all cast our votes and come to a majority consensus. Piece of fish had a strong idea that I don't really fully understand how it would be helpful and I still think Qxd5 is better than that but we should evaluate these other options.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:17
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Forget the queen. Let's take the opportunity to break out a knight. Knight to F6 threatens the pawn and develops a piece. If he moves the pawn forward, we take with one of our other pawns. Maybe the queen's bishop pawn to push up the center?
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Jul 11, 2017 23:31
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What the hell is Qxd5
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Jul 11, 2017 23:36
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chitoryu12 posted:What the hell is Qxd5 Queen [Q] captures [x] as it moves to d5.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:38
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I'm looking at the board and I'm concerned that White's next move is going to be Bb5+. Part of me wants to say Bd7 to preempt that.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:42
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Snorb posted:I'm looking at the board and I'm concerned that White's next move is going to be Bb5+. Part of me wants to say Bd7 to preempt that. Wouldn't Qxd5 kind of accomplish the same? They wouldn't be able to move there without losing their bishop at least.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:51
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Davin Valkri posted:Forget the queen. Let's take the opportunity to break out a knight. Knight to F6 threatens the pawn and develops a piece. If he moves the pawn forward, we take with one of our other pawns. Maybe the queen's bishop pawn to push up the center? Hm, that sounds strong and develops. Best thing is it leaves Qxd5 on the table. I change my vote to Nf6. E: although the aforementioned bishop move may be a threat.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:53
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Yeah, I think that bishop move would make Qxd5 either worth doing on this turn, or not happening at all, at least for a while. Qxd5 Edit: If they really want to move the knight to NC5, wouldn't it be best to move the queen to somewhere on the E column(that isn't 4) and force them to waste a turn stopping a mate? Or would that just waste tempo for no real effect? Talow fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 00:06
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The pin can be seen both as enhanced and reduced development. It may open a castle, it may cause a panic, they may focus on unpinning or they may stick with the pin. One suggestion I have is to work on a strategy to pin against a castle, which should shut down the entire side of the board.
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Jul 12, 2017 00:32
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Alright, if nobody is going to take my suggestion to delay voting until after we've had a good think.... Qxd5 is the aforementioned comedy option and is likely to start us off badly enough to lose us the entire game. It's dumb, it's pointless against these players, and we sacrifice a real possible advantage in developing the scandinavian defence and our pieces. Why the hell would you. My vote is on Nf6, not stupidly pushing the one piece we don't want on the board early for no real gain, directly in the face of all conventional chess wisdom. Moving the queen will cost us. I promise you. Davin Valkri posted:Forget the queen. Let's take the opportunity to break out a knight. Knight to F6 threatens the pawn and develops a piece. If he moves the pawn forward, we take with one of our other pawns. Maybe the queen's bishop pawn to push up the center? Exactly. If they follow up with c4, which is very reasonable, we can push for c6 and have a much stronger early position. Exactly this I spoke of earlier, in fact: Nice piece of fish posted:Absolutely. I suggest Nf6, and maybe we'll draw them into the scandinavian gambit (in keeping with the theme) ending up here: Nice piece of fish fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 00:52
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Wait. What if it's bait? They may have a plan to deal with the Queen other than the obvious Nc3 move. We need to figure out how we're going to deal with Nc3 and how we deal with any other potential anti Queen D5 moves. Is Qxd5 actually worth it? I'm not rescinding my vote yet, just urging a bit of caution before we all cast our votes and come to a majority consensus. Piece of fish had a strong idea that I don't really fully understand how it would be helpful and I still think Qxd5 is better than that but we should evaluate these other options. Also, you don't deal with Nc3. It fucks our early game. Which probably fucks our mid game. Which fucks our late game, and we lose.
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Jul 12, 2017 00:54
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Nice piece of fish posted:Also, you don't deal with Nc3. It fucks our early game. Which probably fucks our mid game. Which fucks our late game, and we lose. I too have opted for Nf6, but there has to be a way to mess with Nc3. Just saying "No, that's bad" helps exactly nobody. Yes, Nc3 threatens our Queen but presumably after that we pin the enemy or we move the Queen to another position for board coverage. Nf6 really does look like the better move now, since it simply opens up more options. We sacrificed material to gain momentum that the enemy has now lost. We must press this advantage.
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Jul 12, 2017 00:59
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:I too have opted for Nf6, but there has to be a way to mess with Nc3. Just saying "No, that's bad" helps exactly nobody. Yes, Nc3 threatens our Queen but presumably after that we pin the enemy or we move the Queen to another position for board coverage. Nf6 really does look like the better move now, since it simply opens up more options. We sacrificed material to gain momentum that the enemy has now lost. We must press this advantage. Honestly, none that gives black the advantage. None that I know of. None that I can find on wikipedia. We're into the scandinavian defence now, and the overall path forks very clearly from here: queen takes pawn, knight goes to c3, queen is threatened and must move (we've just wasted tempo on a double move) then what? Queen exchange? Puts us on a developmental disadvantage (minus an extra pawn too), and as black we can't have that. Pin? To what end? We've sacrificed tempo and a pawn to somewhat delay their development, and gained nothing substantial. Does anyone here really think we're playing against idiots? So far, we're actually doing good. We're in this. Pop the queen out early and we gamble it all on our opponents being idiots. As for the scandinavian defence, read this guy's analysis of it: https://www.chess.com/article/view/openings-for-tactical-players-scandinavian-center-counter--defense as an actual smart chess guy that probably knows a lot more than me about this. Nf6 at worst puts us on a mostly even footing. At best it delivers us the edge we need. Nice piece of fish fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 01:20
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Keep in mind that even footing is actually being ahead as Black: we always start behind. We need to capitalise and we need to decide as a thread if Nf6 into ??? and staying even over falling back to our previous position of being behind to force a powerful pin. Having gone through some mocks vs friends on this position, I still don't know whether Nf6 goes better than Qxd5. If it's any help, I won all of those. That and my friends are poo poo at chess. Perhaps we should arrange mock games among ourselves?
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Jul 12, 2017 01:34
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It probably does make more sense for the knight to move, yeah. Knight to F6. At this point we can basically threaten White with breaking out the Queen if we really wanted to.
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Jul 12, 2017 01:40
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Keep in mind that even footing is actually being ahead as Black: we always start behind. We need to capitalise and we need to decide as a thread if Nf6 into ??? and staying even over falling back to our previous position of being behind to force a powerful pin. Having gone through some mocks vs friends on this position, I still don't know whether Nf6 goes better than Qxd5. If it's any help, I won all of those. That and my friends are poo poo at chess. Perhaps we should arrange mock games among ourselves? Nf6 gives us all sorts of options, first to deal with the loose pawn, secondly to develop our board much more freely than white, who has been forced to sacrifice tempo on same-pawn moves at the very start. Nf6 gives us options, loads of them. Our development will depend on what white chooses next, but we can go with pawns, bishops or knights and be solidly developing our threat field. I'd be most concerned with bishop to check, Bb5, but mostly because that forces our hand. Everywhere else we retain initiative and options. Also, the queen is definitely a possibility at any point moving forward. E: To put a point on it, if they go with c4 - which I'm hoping - I'd like to go to e6. That's a beautiful field for us, gives us loads of developmental potential. It also boxes white in nicely. Nice piece of fish fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 01:46
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I have to agree with Knight to F6. I can't see any benefit to trying to trick them into a queen exchange when that could easily backfire and leave us without a queen.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:36
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All right. Nf6.
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Jul 12, 2017 02:59
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Chiming in here now that I've been added in. Qxd6 is the best move here, even though it does not appear to be at first glance. Yes, they will likely respond with Nc3. That's totally OK. We can respond with Qa5 which puts the Queen in an active but rather safe square. Most likely we will end up transitioning into the common Caro-Kann defense for Black with a ... c6 move almost regardless of their followup to Qa5.
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Jul 12, 2017 03:40
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Alright, reading the discussion has convinced me of Nf6.
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Jul 12, 2017 04:11
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I'll change my vote to Nf6 - I didn't realise the queen was such a dire move. This is why the discussion is so interesting.
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Jul 12, 2017 05:04
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I'm not sure why we bothered with the sicilian if we weren't going to Qxd5. Anything else gave away a pawn for literally nothing unless a very particular set of moves is made that makes White get in their own way.
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Jul 12, 2017 05:13
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I think the more pieces we add will be very helpful as things get more crazy, Knights are good, I love them. Putting the Queen out is pretty tempting, but we'll have more opportunities in future when it can run rampant. Nf6
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Jul 12, 2017 05:18
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