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socialsecurity posted:I can't actually think of a time Star Trek ended with them converting alien of the week to Federation culture overnight? Just think of all the times they didn't execute Wesley for not keeping off the grass
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Aug 13, 2020 20:31
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You know, when I think of Klingon diplomacy, or basically any other race in Star Trek, I feel the race is just "let's take one core property and base their entire culture around it". Despite them showing that there are Klingon doctors and farmers and whatnot, the Klingons are "proud warrior race", that is their one property, and everything they do is based around that. Vulcans are the logic race, Ferengi the greedy race, and so on. Sometimes the plot of an episode is some individuals rebelling against tradition and in the "best" case they start becoming more human. On the other hand, races like the Krill and the Moclans remind me more of the races in Babylon 5, where you can't just completely describe a race with a single phrase, but there's more to each race which you'll only learn as you get to know them. The Krill aren't just "the holy fight" and I don't even know how I'd describe the Moclans.
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Aug 13, 2020 20:45
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Carbon dioxide posted:The Krill aren't just "the holy fight" and I don't even know how I'd describe the Moclans. I feel like the Krill are no more nuanced than DS9's Klingons. They are all very religiously focused rather than just the combative part, though Moclans are basically "toxic masculinity: the species" A masculinity so toxic that the feminine is altogether banned
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Aug 13, 2020 21:03
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honestly i feel more and more that the federation is way too smug and self-assured about their value system. they're almost supremacist in their belief that they not only have a better society, they are better people. it's very hard to relate to them because they have so earnestly embraced a post-human-condition outlook; despite humans being the majority of the crew we see, the federation is really founded on vulcan ideology since human civilization was hanging by a thread when first contact occurred. it's believable from that angle, but still not relatable. the union feels much more like a natural extension of humanity as it is.
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Aug 13, 2020 21:12
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TheScott2K posted:I remember when The Orville first started a huge number of critics very obviously did not watch any of it. It was very obvious that people had their hot takes ready to go and weren't going to let a little thing like the actual quality or merits of the thing being discussed stop a good line of clickbait. That's modern media criticism!
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Aug 13, 2020 23:15
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socialsecurity posted:I can't actually think of a time Star Trek ended with them converting alien of the week to Federation culture overnight? It's really something that happened more often in the original series. That said, many TOS episodes are also more nuanced than just having the Federation show up to tell the ignorant locals why Federation values are better than whatever they were using before then.
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Aug 14, 2020 02:27
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Usually the enemy of the week was convinced whenever Kirk ripped his shirt, yes.
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Aug 14, 2020 06:21
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:It's really something that happened more often in the original series. That said, many TOS episodes are also more nuanced than just having the Federation show up to tell the ignorant locals why Federation values are better than whatever they were using before then. TOS usually wrapped up one of those plots with a monologue, but it was usually more of an undercurrent in TNG. In TNG it wasn't usually convincing the alien of the week why their culture was bad, but contrasting it with Federation culture, and usually making the aliens look like they're backwards and wrong for doing things like killing their elders when they turned 50, or how Geordi wouldn't have been born on some planet because they would have prevented a defective baby from being born. I do think that it really was why The Orville had the first Mochlan gender episode so early, it's a sign that this isn't Star Trek. They hit all of the beats for an episode of Star Trek, where the aliens are backwards and wrong for their culture, and the Union gives a passionate speech, only to end up slapped down. It's also divergent from Trek, in the fact that it's an issue that keeps resurfacing. Not only does it keep resurfacing, but it was hinted that it may be a big problem in the future, and may actually break the alliance between the Mochlans and the Union.
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Aug 14, 2020 12:48
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Trek aliens outside of DS9 can't change because you're not allowed to serialise things beyond REALLY basic "changing a single crewmember maybe because that actor hates us" levels. There's no time to properly develop klingons or anything in the TNG episode pattern so they become super general brush strokes.
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Aug 20, 2020 16:29
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I think TNG did a good job developing Klingons, but that was because Worf was a main cast member. Really, unless a species is in the main or recurring cast, they don't get developed even in DS9.
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Aug 20, 2020 16:47
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swickles posted:I think TNG did a good job developing Klingons, but that was because Worf was a main cast member. Really, unless a species is in the main or recurring cast, they don't get developed even in DS9. Does that mean we're getting Krill exchange officers already?
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Aug 20, 2020 17:31
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swickles posted:I think TNG did a good job developing Klingons, but that was because Worf was a main cast member. Really, unless a species is in the main or recurring cast, they don't get developed even in DS9. And that's why not keeping around the Romulan cloaking device officer was such a lost opportunity.
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Aug 20, 2020 20:00
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McSpanky posted:And that's why not keeping around the Romulan cloaking device officer was such a lost opportunity. Star Trek did a lot of that all the time. Just about every time there was something cool and neat that might make things more interesting, they would just discard it by the time the next episode rolled around. It was frustrating to no end when it came to Voyager because, gently caress, if there was ever a reason for things to evolve it was Voyager. They couldn't just return to the nearest star-base for repairs, so getting rocked by a space monster should have left them doing functional repairs instead of cosmetic poo poo, but nope, everything is back to normal by the next episode.
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Aug 20, 2020 20:11
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Iron Crowned posted:Star Trek did a lot of that all the time. Just about every time there was something cool and neat that might make things more interesting, they would just discard it by the time the next episode rolled around. The pilot ep of Voyager pissed me off to no end because of this. Trapped in deep space, and forced to forge an alliance with the Maquis, and unifying crews, and the ep ends with the Maquis in Starfleet uniforms.
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Aug 20, 2020 20:24
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Davros1 posted:The pilot ep of Voyager pissed me off to no end because of this. Trapped in deep space, and forced to forge an alliance with the Maquis, and unifying crews, and the ep ends with the Maquis in Starfleet uniforms. ehh if they are going to integrate into one crew with one command structure, it makes sense. Uniforms are uniform for a reason. There are a lot of dumb things about the voyager pilot but I'm not sure that's one of them. They should have stretched it out farther maybe, but they had to set the status quo for their episodic needs even if the premise demanded a serial FAR more than any other trek
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Aug 20, 2020 20:37
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Was voyager made for syndication? I think DS9 was, but wasn't Voyager made to air on UPN? Those are issues that you could explain away with syndication where viewers would get confused if things were aired out of order. But I'm pretty sure Voyager was UPNs thing, so the episodes would be aired in order, so you could do continuity things like that.
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Aug 20, 2020 20:37
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The Bloop posted:ehh if they are going to integrate into one crew with one command structure, it makes sense. Uniforms are uniform for a reason. I was thinking story-wise, where they had established the Maquis' were at odds with the Federation, so it would be cool to keep that going, visually at least. Instead of at the end of the ep "We're all assimilated now!"
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Aug 20, 2020 20:41
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McSpanky posted:And that's why not keeping around the Romulan cloaking device officer was such a lost opportunity. At least they later owned up to it and called it a huge mistake instead of pretending all their choices were good.
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Aug 20, 2020 20:41
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Davros1 posted:I was thinking story-wise, where they had established the Maquis' were at odds with the Federation, so it would be cool to keep that going, visually at least. Instead of at the end of the ep "We're all assimilated now!" Apparently resistance was less than ideal
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Aug 20, 2020 20:52
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Cojawfee posted:Was voyager made for syndication? I think DS9 was, but wasn't Voyager made to air on UPN? Those are issues that you could explain away with syndication where viewers would get confused if things were aired out of order. But I'm pretty sure Voyager was UPNs thing, so the episodes would be aired in order, so you could do continuity things like that. I think Voyager and Homeboys in Space were the only two shows UPN had when it started. Davros1 posted:I was thinking story-wise, where they had established the Maquis' were at odds with the Federation, so it would be cool to keep that going, visually at least. Instead of at the end of the ep "We're all assimilated now!" Exactly, hell, even if you're resolved to work together, if you start out at odds, it should be at least an uneasy alliance for a while. "Sure we'll work together to survive this mess, but we're not going to like it, at least not right away."
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Aug 20, 2020 20:59
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Iron Crowned posted:I think Voyager and Homeboys in Space were the only two shows UPN had when it started. There was also Deadly Games (which wasn't great imo) and 7 Days (which I liked.)
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Aug 20, 2020 21:50
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Davros1 posted:The pilot ep of Voyager pissed me off to no end because of this. Trapped in deep space, and forced to forge an alliance with the Maquis, and unifying crews, and the ep ends with the Maquis in Starfleet uniforms. IIRC they even lampshade this in the Barclay's Unhealthy Obsession With Voyager episode by showing that the crews didn't integrate and the ship is significantly damaged.
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Aug 20, 2020 21:56
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Iron Crowned posted:It was frustrating to no end when it came to Voyager because, gently caress, if there was ever a reason for things to evolve it was Voyager. They couldn't just return to the nearest star-base for repairs, so getting rocked by a space monster should have left them doing functional repairs instead of cosmetic poo poo, but nope, everything is back to normal by the next episode. agreed, janeway and tom paris should have just been changed into salamanders permanently
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Aug 20, 2020 22:12
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The primary question the Voyager pilot begs the viewer to ask is: "Why didn't they use timed explosives??" Janeway should have been stripped of command immediately after.
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Aug 20, 2020 23:53
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8one6 posted:7 Days (which I liked.) Such a good little action/adventure/sci-fi show, kinda the tail end of those type of shows for a while of that generation.
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Aug 21, 2020 00:28
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Zurui posted:IIRC they even lampshade this in the Barclay's Unhealthy Obsession With Voyager episode by showing that the crews didn't integrate and the ship is significantly damaged. They did this a lot. Basically every time they showed an alternate version of Voyager, like the "Inaccurate Historical Account" episode and Year of Hell, they show what things could have been like and they were always much more interesting than what they would choose to give us. I was always sad that they never really chose to have a long serialized story about the return home and what they would gain and lose in the process.
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Aug 21, 2020 00:28
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Mooseontheloose posted:Such a good little action/adventure/sci-fi show, kinda the tail end of those type of shows for a while of that generation. I had always assumed that, with the show's premise it was 9/11 that killed the chance of a new season but apparently there was some minor drama behind the scenes.
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Aug 21, 2020 01:15
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Lambert posted:The primary question the Voyager pilot begs the viewer to ask is: "Why didn't they use timed explosives??" Nah, if you don't see it asplode with your own two eyes then it never asploded. Janeway was right to make sure it asploded.
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Aug 21, 2020 03:10
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Iron Crowned posted:I think Voyager and Homeboys in Space were the only two shows UPN had when it started. Homeboys in outer space was over a year later, the original lineup was STV, Marker, The Watcher, Pig Sty, and Platypus Man. So yeah massive wasted opportunity because Voyager was literally the entire network and could've done anything they wanted
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Aug 21, 2020 03:28
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Them being the entire network was a massive albatross around their neck. Your don't get to experiment and take risks when an entire network rests on your shoulders.
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Aug 21, 2020 03:36
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John Wick of Dogs posted:Nah, if you don't see it asplode with your own two eyes then it never asploded. Janeway was right to make sure it asploded.
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Aug 21, 2020 03:37
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shame on an IGA posted:Homeboys in outer space was over a year later, the original lineup was STV, Marker, The Watcher, Pig Sty, and Platypus Man. Was Nowhere Man later too, then? For some reason I have always thought that was a first year UPN thing. What a great show that was, unbelievable travesty they canceled it.
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Aug 21, 2020 03:47
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Davros1 posted:I was thinking story-wise, where they had established the Maquis' were at odds with the Federation, so it would be cool to keep that going, visually at least. Instead of at the end of the ep "We're all assimilated now!" Eh a lot of the Maquis were people who left Starfleet to fight for a cause. Some of them were dropouts or poor fits discipline wise like Torres - and I don't think the show shies away from her problems with controlling her temper, and her struggle to conform to a rigid command structure, especially in the early seasons - but many others were people like Chakotay who were very successful and accomplished officers before they gave it up to fight. Absent that cause to fight for it isn't surprising that for the most part they settled back into Starfleet roles. Voyager had a number of problems but I don't think that was really one of them. I'm actually bingeing voyager right now, having never watched it since I was a kid - I'm even finding episodes I'm sure I've never seen. I've watched TNG and DS9 a million times, but I'd never bothered to watch voyager again.
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Aug 21, 2020 05:37
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The Lord Bude posted:Eh a lot of the Maquis were people who left Starfleet to fight for a cause. Some of them were dropouts or poor fits discipline wise like Torres - and I don't think the show shies away from her problems with controlling her temper, and her struggle to conform to a rigid command structure, especially in the early seasons - but many others were people like Chakotay who were very successful and accomplished officers before they gave it up to fight. Absent that cause to fight for it isn't surprising that for the most part they settled back into Starfleet roles. Voyager had a number of problems but I don't think that was really one of them. It doesn't shy away from her temper but it does fly awfully close to the race essentialism sun when they remove her Klingon half and she's nicer
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Aug 21, 2020 12:25
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The Bloop posted:It doesn't shy away from her temper but it does fly awfully close to the race essentialism sun when they remove her Klingon half and she's nicer Sure, nicer for a Hew-mon. Humans come off as insufferably passive-aggressive and evasive to Klingons. Basically, Human B'Elanna was a loving rear end in a top hat.
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Aug 21, 2020 16:46
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The Lord Bude posted:Eh a lot of the Maquis were people who left Starfleet to fight for a cause. Some of them were dropouts or poor fits discipline wise like Torres - and I don't think the show shies away from her problems with controlling her temper, and her struggle to conform to a rigid command structure, especially in the early seasons - but many others were people like Chakotay who were very successful and accomplished officers before they gave it up to fight. Absent that cause to fight for it isn't surprising that for the most part they settled back into Starfleet roles. Voyager had a number of problems but I don't think that was really one of them. Yeah but it's like--why even have that plot point and set up that conflict to just nerf it anyway? Like it could have been "regular Starfleet crew is Lost In Space." Son of Sam-I-Am posted:Was Nowhere Man later too, then? For some reason I have always thought that was a first year UPN thing. What a great show that was, unbelievable travesty they canceled it.  If there was ever a show they should reboot now, it's that one. The concept of instantly losing one's identity and shadowy conspiracies is made for today's prestige tv. In fact, that was one of the first "prestige" shows in my opinion. It was, along with X-Files and post S2 TNG, one of the first times I appreciated quality writing and directing. It was on a higher level than it's peers on tv at the time.
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Aug 22, 2020 01:27
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Bonus points if they bring Bruce Greenwood back for it.
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Aug 22, 2020 05:18
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Strange Luck would be another great show to reboot in today's prestige vein, and bonus points for bringing back D B Sweeney to do it.
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Sep 3, 2020 22:45
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Hipster_Doofus posted:Strange Luck would be another great show to reboot in today's prestige vein, and bonus points for bringing back D B Sweeney to do it. 
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Sep 3, 2020 22:51
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https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/ent/the-orville-seth-macfarlane.html Apparently the delay on season 4 isn't that Hulu wants to kill the show, it's because Seth wants to kill himself off and move to other projects and Hulu doesn't want to do more without Seth
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Oct 2, 2020 14:29
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