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Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012


Boy, was this episode a coming out party for Devon. I'm really hoping the preview doesn't herald bad things to come for him because I love watching him work. Sure, his schemes might seem a little overly complicated, but they're working. And what's even more impressive is that no one is questioning them, or, for that matter, anything he says. Everyone wants to work with him. Going into this episode, I felt like basically everyone loved Devon. The only real question marks I had with regards to his relationships were Chrissy and Lauren, and Lauren's was put to bed when she picked him first for her reward. First. You have no clue how many slots Jeff is gonna offer for this sort of thing; the fact that Lauren picked him first says to me that she wanted to work with him more than anyone. That whatever she was plotting, he had the most important part in it. Ben, Ashley, Lauren, Mike, Joe, hell, even Ryan seems to want repair his relationship with Devon.

Devon is also one of the only people left on the season that neither the show nor the other characters has undermined at any point. People just seem to do what he says and believe what he tells them. When Devon wants something to happen, it tends to happen, and he doesn't have to push for it. Nobody is feeling steamrolled by Devon. They just sort of go along with him. Sure thing, Dev. Whatever you say, Dev. He spun an entire fictional narrative around the Coco-Nuts and the Super Idol Duo that required the full cooperation of every other person left in the game and it worked. They all just rolled with it.

Of all the late-game plot twists we could've had, the seemingly likable, laid-back golden boy turning out to be this weirdly hypnotic schemer setting up multi-layered deceptions and quietly taking control of the game out from under the obvious leaders is one of the best I could've hoped for. Right now, everyone is under his spell. Only time will tell if that holds, but I'm loving it while it lasts. Devon Pinto is the Dark Golden Boy we never knew we needed.

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ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

My guess as to why Lauren picked Devon first was that she didn't want to make her alliance with Ben too obvious. Nobody would question her picking a fellow Hustler too much.

As long as Chrissy/Ryan/Ben are around, Devon won't be a threat, but I'm guessing that once it gets down to like F5 he's going to be a target unless he can sway people to vote out Ashley/Lauren as immunity threats. I wouldn't put it past his ability to do so.

The Mighty Moltres
Dec 21, 2012

Come! We must fly!


xbilkis posted:

I also need a supercut of Devon reacting to things

PICKLES!!?!!

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988



Codependent Poster posted:

Hooray, finally!

They should have gone after Ryan though.
Yeah totally. A huge blindside is the perfect opportunity to take out a big player holding an idol. And if he plays the idol, it bounces back on Joe or Mike, so who cares? Especially considering they cannibalized Joe intentionally the very next vote anyway, on account of Ryan having that idol. But ideally this could have gone Ryan first, JP second.

Then you keep telling Ben he's a spy but vote him out for real sooner or later.

Propaganda Machine
Jan 2, 2005

Truthiness!

Lots of really weird missed opportunities, but good television. Worth the wait for that little party.

I also fully agree with whoever said that Devon is now Kylo Ren. And I love it. Perfect timing, even.

Vernacular
Nov 29, 2004



Devon and Lauren are both pretty neck and neck in the "fuckin killin it" department. I think Devon has the edge at the moment, but I could see that working against him pretty soon, whereas Lauren has a clearer path to flying under the radar until the end. Dude 100% deserves to win if he makes it to the end though. It would be some pretty impressive handiwork if he somehow avoids the boot before then.

One of Ryan or Chrissy probably makes it to the end as a goat now. I wasn't as sour on them as others here, but their backpedalling was truly a thing to behold, one of those portrayals that you can just tell the editors are relishing in.

Ben's still a bit of a question mark for me. He gets a lot of attention for being a supposed huge threat, but I'm not convinced yet. His double agent task was helpful for the alliance, but sullies his individual game since its more of a feather in Devon's cap, and also just kinda makes him look skeezy. Too much negative attention for him without that much of a personal payoff.

I think if he makes it to end, he'll be like Coach from South Pacific: guy with lots of hype and a commanding persona, but sitting next to a quieter, more skilled player. My guess for final three at this point is him, one of Ryan/Chrissy and one of Devon/Lauren, with the latter winning.

Vernacular fucked around with this message at Nov 30, 2017 around 17:27

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988



Ben's issue is that I think everyone in the game knows they can't let him make it to the end. But if they wait a vote or two too long, he has an idol and could pull out a clutch immunity win, so he does potentially have a shot.

It'd be nice for them to blindside Ben this next vote, but Mike now knows they've been stringing him along. If word leaks that they're targeting Ben, not only could he play the idol, but he could flip over to Chrissy and Ryan with Mike and doom the other three.

So instead they could just take out a consensus next-up like Chrissy/Ryan/Mike, with Ben still on-side. And then start targeting Ben at 6... One interesting thing is the fisher/surfer/lifeguard can have a F3 deal and completely control the votes starting at F6 thanks to Lauren's extra vote. A firm F3 already at 6 could make for bad TV but I doubt things go that smoothly, and they'd still have Ben's secret idol to navigate.

Fast Luck fucked around with this message at Nov 30, 2017 around 17:44

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


Yeah, I don't think there's any question Ben's a legit threat to win. Like, when the entire jury pool is saying it, that's as much proof as you need. The problem is the entire jury pool is saying it and Ben's gonna have to make some key moves at the right time to make it to the end. The idol helps, but only if he sees the move coming.

Lauren, Ashley, and Devon should take out one of Ryan/Chrissy for sure to break up that duo, then probably Ben. But Lauren also needs to figure out her end game because its a mistake for her to let Ashley and Devon stick together. I'm not sure that's a set F2 or anything and I could see them turning on each other or Lauren convincing Ashley she needs to take out Devon, but its a gamble.

ApplesandOranges posted:

My guess as to why Lauren picked Devon first was that she didn't want to make her alliance with Ben too obvious. Nobody would question her picking a fellow Hustler too much.

Yeah, Lauren's alliance construction was kind of simple but clever. Two original hustlers in her and Devon, two original heroes in Ben and Ashley. Devon and Ashley bonded and got trust after the swap and Lauren and Ben did. Its like those Ryan/Chrissy/Devon/Ashley/JP alliances we were speculating on at merge time, but that was apparently fiction and Lauren made this one work. So its no real surprise she chose Devon first and Ashley second (I think?) since she wanted to make those inroads with them. If there hadn't been a 4th slot she probably could have caught Ben up when they got back.

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

you're a flower. you're also a rainbow and a river. you are the manifestation of all perfection and i want to i don't fucking know, but you are fucking perfect


It's kind of nice that there seems to be a decent pool of players they could pull from this season for returnees. Just a few episodes ago it didn't seem that way, but the last few weeks we've gotten to see some people really start to shine.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Lauren went Devon > Ben > Ashley. We don't know too much about Ashley but I guess it wouldn't have been hard for Devon to sway her in if there wasn't a 4th slot.

graventy
Jul 27, 2006


Fun Shoe

This season has been kind of meh, but when the show hits on all cylinders it really rocks it. That was a fun double ep, and I’m glad Ben hasn’t been kicked off yet if only to allow him to continue to act it up.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Joe said in exit interviews that everyone's looking to take Ashley to the end as a goat. Whether or not that's actually true or is just his own bias remains to be seen.

AWarmBody
Jul 26, 2014

Better than a cold one.

This episode saved the season for me.

I'm so glad that the episode was a double one. I don't know how else the editors would've been able to tell the story of the Magnificent Devon if they ended it with JP's boot. They saw the momentum and just rolled with it. 100% Fantastic. I wanted to rewatch the episode as soon as it was done because it's so satisfying to see plans executed successfully.

Propaganda Machine
Jan 2, 2005

Truthiness!

ApplesandOranges posted:

Joe said in exit interviews that everyone's looking to take Ashley to the end as a goat. Whether or not that's actually true or is just his own bias remains to be seen.

Ashley strikes me as Amanda Kimmel China-style who sucks less.

So, yeah, she might get a vote to win. It's a drat shame.

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012


It's also becoming clearer and clearer why Chrissy is in a no-win position out there. She's either not connecting with people and seeming fake, or seeming SO sincere that it actually hurts and pisses people off when she betrays them. She can't find a middle ground and just isn't giving off good vibes. And poor Ryan was so obvious with the fact that she was his number one that he's lost all his other connections and is a now man without a country.

Imagine hearing at the beginning-- or even the middle-- of this season that there was a genuine possibility that Chrissy and Ryan would be taken to the end as Devon or Lauren's goats. What a world we are living in.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

I can't really pick out a noticeable flaw in Ashley's game; she got kinda screwed pre-merge with Alan and then the swap, and then didn't really have much reason to make moves immediately post-merge since her alliance was strong enough to just roll over the minority for three straight votes. She's good in challenges and was willing to try and push for a Ben elimination (so she's not completely passive), so I guess her downside is that she... doesn't have an advantage like Lauren and isn't as likable as Devon or Ben. That's it.

I guess you could say her social game should be stronger, but anyone left who isn't Devon doesn't have a stellar social game anyway.

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

you're a flower. you're also a rainbow and a river. you are the manifestation of all perfection and i want to i don't fucking know, but you are fucking perfect


Spergatory posted:

Imagine hearing at the beginning-- or even the middle-- of this season that there was a genuine possibility that Chrissy and Ryan would be taken to the end as Devon or Lauren's goats. What a world we are living in.

To be fair I'm pretty sure I called the former around the middle

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012


ApplesandOranges posted:

I can't really pick out a noticeable flaw in Ashley's game; she got kinda screwed pre-merge with Alan and then the swap, and then didn't really have much reason to make moves immediately post-merge since her alliance was strong enough to just roll over the minority for three straight votes. She's good in challenges and was willing to try and push for a Ben elimination (so she's not completely passive), so I guess her downside is that she... doesn't have an advantage like Lauren and isn't as likable as Devon or Ben. That's it.

I guess you could say her social game should be stronger, but anyone left who isn't Devon doesn't have a stellar social game anyway.

Ashley needs to do something that she and she alone can take credit for. I mean, as much as people might hate meta Survivor and talk of resumes and big moves, generally speaking, the jury wants to lose to someone they feel really played the game. Lauren can take credit for being a surprise challenge beast and putting together a game-shifting alliance. Devon can take credit for coming up with two of the most masterful vote-deflecting, idol-flushing deceptions ever deployed in Survivor. And Ben can take credit for being the leader of The Roundtable™, being instrumental in Lauren's Angels and Devon's Devilry, for being a target through most of the post-merge and (if he gets there) still making it to FTC. Ashley has nothing to her name right now except a challenge win. If she gets to the end without doing something else, nobody on the jury is going to want to vote for her no matter how much they like her. The psychology of juries has a lot to do with who people can handle being bested by. If a jury can't stand the thought of losing to you, then they're going to decide not to, whether that's because you didn't play the game or because they just don't like you.

sportsgenius86
Jun 17, 2008

THE STREAK IS OVER


Spergatory posted:

It's also becoming clearer and clearer why Chrissy is in a no-win position out there. She's either not connecting with people and seeming fake, or seeming SO sincere that it actually hurts and pisses people off when she betrays them. She can't find a middle ground and just isn't giving off good vibes. And poor Ryan was so obvious with the fact that she was his number one that he's lost all his other connections and is a now man without a country.

Imagine hearing at the beginning-- or even the middle-- of this season that there was a genuine possibility that Chrissy and Ryan would be taken to the end as Devon or Lauren's goats. What a world we are living in.

She has a very condescending tone to her voice and very obviously acts like she's of superior intelligence. It's not hard to figure out where Chrissy goes wrong. She talks to most of these people like they're her kids rather than her peers.

Fast Luck
Feb 2, 1988



Spergatory posted:

It's also becoming clearer and clearer why Chrissy is in a no-win position out there. She's either not connecting with people and seeming fake, or seeming SO sincere that it actually hurts and pisses people off when she betrays them. She can't find a middle ground and just isn't giving off good vibes. And poor Ryan was so obvious with the fact that she was his number one that he's lost all his other connections and is a now man without a country.
If Ryan doesn't tell Ben about his idol, Devon still thinks he's bff with Ryan and Lauren's pitch at the reward challenge probably gets blown up. The Ryan-Chrissy alliance steamrolls onward at least another few votes.

Glad we don't live in that reality, and that the game broke out.

Btw, when Ben told Devon that game-changing piece of info, I initially thought it kind of made Ben look like a leaky sieve that Devon shouldn't really trust either, but instead it worked out entirely positive for Ben. I guess that makes sense though, it was Ryan who sung to Ben first despite not being that close, which was a betrayal of his inner alliance, and then again because they weren't that close, Ben revealing it wasn't a big betrayal.

Fast Luck fucked around with this message at Dec 1, 2017 around 15:35

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Spergatory posted:

Ashley needs to do something that she and she alone can take credit for. I mean, as much as people might hate meta Survivor and talk of resumes and big moves, generally speaking, the jury wants to lose to someone they feel really played the game. Lauren can take credit for being a surprise challenge beast and putting together a game-shifting alliance. Devon can take credit for coming up with two of the most masterful vote-deflecting, idol-flushing deceptions ever deployed in Survivor. And Ben can take credit for being the leader of The Roundtable™, being instrumental in Lauren's Angels and Devon's Devilry, for being a target through most of the post-merge and (if he gets there) still making it to FTC. Ashley has nothing to her name right now except a challenge win. If she gets to the end without doing something else, nobody on the jury is going to want to vote for her no matter how much they like her. The psychology of juries has a lot to do with who people can handle being bested by. If a jury can't stand the thought of losing to you, then they're going to decide not to, whether that's because you didn't play the game or because they just don't like you.

I think she should be trying to do something (and if everyone is indeed including her in FTC plans then she has a lot more room to maneuver), but I don't think this jury is necessarily going to be one that only rewards Big Moves. For all the talk about it, Sarah, Tony, Adam and maybe Natalie Anderson are really the only ones in recent years that's won based off the jury rewarding gameplay. Michele and Jeremy won based off their social skills, and Mike Holloway immunitied his way to a win. This jury isn't necessarily going to be as strategy-bent as MvG or Game Changers; you have Desi, Cole and JP on the jury already. Joe/Mike/Ryan/Chrissy would reward strategy and big moves, but I think there's still room for a social game to win.

The problem is that Ashley doesn't have the best social game; Devon, and arguably Ben, are playing that better than she is. So she does need to do more. And while she does have a bit of a safety net, if she overextends and plays hastily, it would really have been her game to lose.

The question is what she can do; her best bet would probably be to flip to Ryan/Chrissy's side at some point to take out the likable threats left and end up in a FTC with some combination of Ryan/Chrissy/Mike. For what it's worth I think she's in a better position than Mike - outside of being possibly arguing surviving the Healer massacre, he had a bad Tribal council performance, is flopping hard in terms of gameplay, and was just lucky the majority alliance started cannibalizing.

Spergatory
Oct 28, 2012


ApplesandOranges posted:

I think she should be trying to do something (and if everyone is indeed including her in FTC plans then she has a lot more room to maneuver), but I don't think this jury is necessarily going to be one that only rewards Big Moves. For all the talk about it, Sarah, Tony, Adam and maybe Natalie Anderson are really the only ones in recent years that's won based off the jury rewarding gameplay. Michele and Jeremy won based off their social skills, and Mike Holloway immunitied his way to a win. This jury isn't necessarily going to be as strategy-bent as MvG or Game Changers; you have Desi, Cole and JP on the jury already. Joe/Mike/Ryan/Chrissy would reward strategy and big moves, but I think there's still room for a social game to win.

The problem is that Ashley doesn't have the best social game; Devon, and arguably Ben, are playing that better than she is. So she does need to do more. And while she does have a bit of a safety net, if she overextends and plays hastily, it would really have been her game to lose.

The question is what she can do; her best bet would probably be to flip to Ryan/Chrissy's side at some point to take out the likable threats left and end up in a FTC with some combination of Ryan/Chrissy/Mike. For what it's worth I think she's in a better position than Mike - outside of being possibly arguing surviving the Healer massacre, he had a bad Tribal council performance, is flopping hard in terms of gameplay, and was just lucky the majority alliance started cannibalizing.

It isn't necessarily that all juries love Big Moves™, it's about perception. If Ashley is being perceived as a coattail rider and a goat, then she needs to do something to counteract that in the eyes of the jury, because the jury won't want to lose to that. Michele and Jeremy won because they were perceived as kingpins and decision-makers even if it wasn't true. Post-game interviews confirm this, at least in Kaoh Rong's case: nobody actually saw Aubry's game on the island. They just saw Michele winning everything and assumed she was leading the charge. Aubry actually had several jurors call her as the season was airing saying "holy poo poo, I had no idea, if only I had known..." which I'm sure was cold comfort for her. Mike Holloway won because he was a huge target that nobody could touch because he wouldn't let them. That's an awesome story that played out in plain view and something that a jury can feel very comfortable rewarding because it's a show of some kind of strength. The jury doesn't want to lose to someone they perceive as weak unless the alternative is even more unpalatable.

Devon might struggle with this too; he purposefully plays up his dumb surfer bro persona and makes his moves very subtly so people don't target him. The problem is that if Devon sells that fiction too well, he might get to FTC only to find that the jury just flat-out refuses to believe his assertions that he's actually a very intelligent and devious player.

If Ashley is perceived as a goat, it's up to her to be aware of that and to fight it. Otherwise, she's relying on the people beside her being so unlikable that the jury can't stand to award them the million.

Zerilan
Jan 11, 2008

I have to believe I can do this.



Fast Luck posted:

If Ryan doesn't tell Ben about his idol, Devon still thinks he's bff with Ryan and Lauren's pitch at the reward challenge probably gets blown up.

Ryan could have had a much stronger game if he didn't get as attached to Chrissy's hip and needlessly trashed his other alliances. A Ryan that avoids a couple huge errors would not only have Devon still on his side but probably still Ali in the game and still seeing him as her closest ally.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


There's definitely an element of Ryan and Chrissy making their position too obvious in play since that seems to be what drove the formation of the new power quartet, but ultimately Ryan's mistake was the classic arrogance. He thought he was a better player than the people he was playing with - whether that was in the form of thinking he and Chrissy could lord over or thinking he could manipulate Ben and Devon and they'd never doubt it or compare notes. Its a basic, simple flaw and it probably would have reared its head somewhere even if Chrissy wasn't involved or Ryan didn't have an idol to use as trust leverage. Ryan thought he could puppet people and it fell apart because everyone's playing their own game.

Devon and Ben aren't even necessarily the smartest people in the world (nor Lauren and Ashley). They're just not saps and weren't content to play passively while they could see others making moves around them.

xbilkis
Apr 11, 2005

god qb
me
jay hova


Re: Ashley: Based on the Ben targeting, she seems like she knows she has to be assertive at the end of the game to get votes. If she can see Ben is a threat, she'll probably be able to piece together that Devon and Lauren are, too, and that she can't be sitting next to both of them if she wants to win.

I generally give a lot of merit to contestants who know not to play too hard when they don't have to, as long as they're not totally passive to the end. People thought Kimmi was a zero for most of Cambodia, but if Jeremy didn't have an idol to save him she would have waited for the perfect moment to make her move, even if it took a while to get there.

It's still not really a game the jury is likely to reward. Plus, the numbers mean Ashley will likely have to sit next to at least one of Devon or Lauren if she makes it to the end, so it'll be hard for her to make distinctions between her late game moves and theirs. But I think it can be good gameplay, at least.

Zesty
Jan 17, 2012



Tortured By Flan

TheCenturion
May 3, 2013
HI I LIKE TO GIVE ADVICE ON RELATIONSHIPS


Looks like he should be a grizzled POW in an 80s action movie; Rambo rescues a bunch of them, and he's the tough-as-nails one that's stood up to everything Charlie could throw at them, who took beatings so the other prisoners didn't, and who snaps a guard's neck with his legs while chained up, gets cut down, immediately picks up a rifle and hoses down some more guards that were about to get the drop on our hero.

He either dies heroically about 3/4ths of the way back to da choppah, or he survives and becomes the partner.

Pinterest Mom
Jun 9, 2009

In a sense, aren't all my posts worth reading?


please take him on a reward

AWarmBody
Jul 26, 2014

Better than a cold one.


Looks like a Top Model shoot.

I'm wondering if Survivor will ever pull someone from the game for being too emaciated/malnourished. Some people turn into skeletons in less than a month and it makes me wonder how they passed physical requirements to be on the show.

Nihonniboku
Aug 11, 2004

YOU CAN FLY!!!

AWarmBody posted:

I'm wondering if Survivor will ever pull someone from the game for being too emaciated/malnourished. Some people turn into skeletons in less than a month and it makes me wonder how they passed physical requirements to be on the show.

As someone who tends to like guys who are skinny and beardy, every season I inevitably develop a crush on a guy mid-game, only to see him at the reunion when he has shaved and put back on weight and be shocked at the fact that I once found him attractive.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Pinterest Mom posted:

please take him on a reward

He had pasta a week ago!

SLICK GOKU BABY
Jun 12, 2001

A Little Known FACT: Burger King's Bacon King is superior to the Baconator.



Need the GIF of his heart literally beating...

Shneak
Mar 6, 2015

"Doctor, listen to me and listen to me closely.
You're gonna witness all the days..."



Good thing he didn't win the iced coffee reward challenge.

xbilkis
Apr 11, 2005

god qb
me
jay hova


Chrissy being a terrible loser is so obnoxious that it loops around to great TV. It also has the benefit of making whoever she's fighting with inherently likable

What he did was INHUMAN

blue squares
Sep 28, 2007


Soiled Meat

I just moved to Colorado and I guess I don't get to watch until it shows up on the East Coast. Bummer

sportsgenius86
Jun 17, 2008

THE STREAK IS OVER


Her dad seems nice but his voice is hella creepy

Midnightghoul
Oct 1, 2003

COME ON DON'T BE SCURRED

This seems like a dumb challenge?

sportsgenius86
Jun 17, 2008

THE STREAK IS OVER


Holy poo poo is this a stupid challenge

SLICK GOKU BABY
Jun 12, 2001

A Little Known FACT: Burger King's Bacon King is superior to the Baconator.


What a lame loving challenge.

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UltimoDragonQuest
Oct 5, 2011



What the gently caress is this?

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