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neonchameleon posted:Unless you go right the way back when they were "Chaos Androids" created by Chaos Squats and I think first seen in the old Space Crusade boardgame. To be fair, Chaos Androids sounds pretty drat rad. In general, its kinda weird that WH 40k never fully utilized the sci-fi cliché of "Mad, human-hating AI", despite it being pretty significant part of its back-story.
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Aug 7, 2020 23:48
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The Tomb Kings happened long after 40k became it's own thing
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Aug 7, 2020 23:58
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A lot of the AI that go haywire aren’t pro Chaos, I don’t think. They usually just kill everyone and gently caress off to do their own thing (where they get blasted by a space marine or something).
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Aug 8, 2020 03:48
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jokes posted:A lot of the AI that go haywire aren’t pro Chaos, I don’t think. They usually just kill everyone and gently caress off to do their own thing (where they get blasted by a space marine or something). oh sure a malicious spirit composed of pure information created by tech priests who went too far in the search for knowledge doesn't have anything to do with chaos. sure absolutely *making the we-better-purge-this-guy-gesture*
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Aug 8, 2020 06:35
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Isn't there a distinction between machine spirits and full ai that isn't just techpriests trying to cover their own asses?
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Aug 8, 2020 07:06
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even to the extent there is (it will surely always be ambiguous), I think a malevolent or unshackled AI is basically exactly Tzeentch's thing. it's an entity of pure information, no fixed substance, etc.
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Aug 8, 2020 07:15
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Eimi posted:Isn't there a distinction between machine spirits and full ai that isn't just techpriests trying to cover their own asses? Other fun theories include machine spirits being the Men of Gold: Dark Age of Technology era AIs that are still benevolent. And my personal favorite because how dumb and silly it is: The C'tan Void Dragon made a deal with the Emperor and created the machine spirits to protect human electronics from Chaos corruption.
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Aug 8, 2020 08:00
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The one black library book I read that had a functioning AI primarily had it yelling at the imperium calling them in effect stupid rear end in a top hat luddites who slaughtered its pilot (it was a starship trapped in a space hulk who manipulated the space marines into freeing it)
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Aug 8, 2020 08:20
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machine spirit is just a catch-all term for everything from a smart fridge to a full-fledged AI that the mechanicus are lying about. there are a lot of true AIs around in warhammer still. the dark mechanicus make them all the time, and some of them are sophisticated enough to make pacts with daemons of their own volition. there was a super-advanced dark age of technology-era titan who had fallen to chaos of its own free will and now had a gun that shot out demons. a bunch of the mechanicus ark ships are AI driven dark-age ships, but the AIs tend to keep a low profile. they intervene to protect themselves, and sometimes even tell the crew about it then wipe their memories afterwards. one ark had its crew miss a shot on a fleeing eldar ship, so the ship itself intervened and used some nightmarish chronological weapon to teleport the eldar ship back in time into the shot that missed. complicating matters is the fact that during the horus heresy a traitor magos opened a secret vault on mars that was full of warp corrupted poo poo. opening it let loose a whole bunch of hosed up code entities that had been quarantined, and so now nearly everything has little ghostly fragments floating around in it. even if the item in question wasn't intended to be a smart item, if it has some type of onboard memory (say like for scope calibrations for a bolter) there might be a capricious data-ghost in there. it's up to interpretation how much the machine spirit rituals are superstition, a cover to justify use of illegal AI, or activities to appease poo poo that was let loose during the horus heresy. it could be all three on a case by case basis. then there are people who have turned themselves into AIs. Belasarius Cawl (big dicked magos behind bringing back rouboute goalieman and making the new primaris marines) has copied his brain multiple times onto computers and operates as a hive mind of himself. if he wasn't super important it would definitely be tech heresy but nobody wants to call him on it. a number of the iron hands (the spess marines obsessed with cyborgifying themselves) have done a whole shitload of tech heresy and a lot of them are now just robots running an AI of their former self, crammed full of illegal technology. there is also a Straight Up Man of Iron (the whole reason for the AI ban) still running around the place, but he has cunningly disguised himself by sticking a skull on his chassis and saying 'beep boop praise the emperor'.  he's a peaceful guy though and just wants to find fellow AIs to hang out with. its important to remember in 40k that the mechanicus were an entirely different, successful culture prior to the imperium. when the emprah united earth he said 'hey you guys, make guns for us or we'll have a war' and the mechanicus went with it. they have a lot more autonomy than the rest of the imperium, and how much they actually buy into any of the imperial laws varies greatly from world to world or even techpriest to techpriest. there is an entire forgeworld who absolutely loves alien technology and will pick fights with aliens on their own to steal poo poo. it's to the point that the Deathwatch (xenos branch of the inquisition) is fighting an underground war with them, but they can't move against the forgeworld overtly because they still produce a huge amount of stuff the imperium really needs.
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Aug 8, 2020 08:28
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To muddy things further, not everything that the Mechanicus says has a machine spirit actually has one. Machine Spirit is a super broad term that includes: Actual AI Smart assistants that aren't actually self-aware Machines with complex programming Non-smart devices that people interact with enough to anthropomorphize Mechanicus rites and rituals are a combination of actually correct ways to interface with machinery, and cultified practices that are the correct thing to do but for the wrong reason. For example, the Mechanicus anoints weapons with sacred oils to appease the machine spirit to stop it from jamming the weapon out of pique. this works, despite your random boltgun not having an intelligence. After all, at the end of the day you are still lubricating and cleaning mechanical components which is a vital step in "making sure your gun doesn't jam". The ritual just obscures why it works
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Aug 8, 2020 08:36
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there's also an element of obscuring how stuff works from non-techpriests. if the IG learned how to maintain all their poo poo themselves, or god forbid make it themselves, the mechanicus would be out of a lot of work and influence. the mechanicus is also constantly lying about having lost knowledge or forgotten how stuff works. they just don't like doing stuff for the imperium and keep all the good poo poo to themselves. a great deal of 'lost' technology from the great crusade era (volkite rifles and such) are just being kept by the mechanicus for their own troops. they also have plasma guns that don't explode. there is a genuine issue of lost manufacturing capabilities (which tends to happen when half your society goes rogue) and lost access to rare materials, but as cawl's shown it's completely possible to manufacture new weapons, new power armour, and new terminator suits. a lot of what the mechanicus claim is rediscovered STC technology is actually new inventions, just stuff that has passed their exhaustive internal testing and been approved for field use finally. they are understandably paranoid that new stuff they make might inadvertently channel warp energy or end up being able to host demon AIs
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Aug 8, 2020 08:45
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So basically a less malicious Clan Skyre.
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Aug 8, 2020 08:56
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There's also, again, a high likelihood that Mars is a Necron Tomb Planet containing a full C'tan instead of just a shard. So that really isn't helping anything here.
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Aug 8, 2020 09:00
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Lord_Magmar posted:There's also, again, a high likelihood that Mars is a Necron Tomb Planet containing a full C'tan instead of just a shard. So that really isn't helping anything here. i don't know if it's a tomb world as such, since the necrons keep trying to bee-line to mars. if it was a tomb world they'd already be there and not need to come from outside. but the void dragon is almost confirmed to be the dragon of mars, and most likely the omnissiah too. the emperor allegedly trapped the dragon of mars in mars prior to the age of strife, so it might be the only c'tan who hasn't been imprisoned by the necrons. on the bright side the void dragon seems to be pretty nice as c'tan go, and may well be the only thing keeping the golden throne functional. the c'tan hate the warp and if the emprah dies he's almost guaranteed to turn terra into a new eye of terror (eye of terra?). the void dragon has control of machines and presumably if it wanted to could turn off the golden throne without much fuss, but the emprah protects the area from chaos, and the imperium is a nice defense against necrons coming to capture the poor ol void dragon.
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Aug 8, 2020 09:19
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I wonder if GW will do the (apparently not that huge) leap and turn Mechanicus into its own independent faction on tabletop someday.
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Aug 8, 2020 10:48
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Lt. Lizard posted:I wonder if GW will do the (apparently not that huge) leap and turn Mechanicus into its own independent faction on tabletop someday. Admech's been their own playable army for years now
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Aug 8, 2020 10:51
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Don't they already have enough stuff to form an army? They have the skitarii and the collegia titanica.
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Aug 8, 2020 10:53
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Lt. Lizard posted:I wonder if GW will do the (apparently not that huge) leap and turn Mechanicus into its own independent faction on tabletop someday. September, 2017 is the answer to this. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Codex-Adeptus-Mechanicus-hb-2017-eng
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Aug 8, 2020 10:58
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Huh! That's what I get for not really paying attention to WH40k for last 5-6 years.
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Aug 8, 2020 11:01
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To be honest I'm not a fan of the fact that the 8th edition codexes appear to be half Imperial forces and half everything else. That's far too much Imperium of Man. On the other hand 9th Edition finally cratered the ridiculous number of Space Marine Variant Codexes we used to get. There's now just a Space Marine Codex with supplements for the non-standard chapters, which is a long-rear end time coming as far as how they handle these things. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 11:12 on Aug 8, 2020 |
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Aug 8, 2020 11:06
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they should at least make a dark mechanicus to balance the imperium/chaos divide a bit
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Aug 8, 2020 11:52
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 Welfs better get
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Aug 8, 2020 13:20
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Ah yes, the only way to make elfs worse: give them cygors.
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Aug 8, 2020 13:22
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juggalo baby coffin posted:and most likely the omnissiah too. Uhhh the Omnissiah is the Emperor no? loving heretic
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Aug 8, 2020 13:58
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Is it just me or are demigryphs really squishy, even with good micromanagement?
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Aug 8, 2020 14:08
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juggalo baby coffin posted:they should at least make a dark mechanicus to balance the imperium/chaos divide a bit As someone with a ridiculous amount of BSF models, give me an actual Renegades & Heretics Codex GW 
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Aug 8, 2020 14:12
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OwlFancier posted:Ah yes, the only way to make elfs worse: give them cygors. I respect your wrong opinion but disagree treemen = good more treemen = more good Its math sorry
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Aug 8, 2020 14:28
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Shadowdancers are almost definite in as a pure melee hero but god knows what else they'd add. I saw someone mention the Elemental Incarnate of Nature as an option (Monstrous Arcananum from Forge World) but the book they're in mentions that mostly that this is one of those dark spooky magics mostly used by Amber Wizards and Beastmen so I dunno how likely it is we'll see a giant angry earthy looking humanoid monstrosity with a giant deer skull and antlers at the top of it running alongside the woody boys.
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Aug 8, 2020 15:12
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skaven are mechanicus, yes yes
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Aug 8, 2020 16:41
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I don't know how they'd be meaningfully different from treemen but something off the Witcher's Leshen could be fancy.
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Aug 8, 2020 16:49
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Ravenfood posted:I don't know how they'd be meaningfully different from treemen but something off the Witcher's Leshen could be fancy. A treeman hero/ROR with a damage aura and/or teleporting abilities.
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Aug 8, 2020 16:59
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Don't give me treemen. Give me tree abominations. Nothing like man. A rolling berry bush of danger.
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Aug 8, 2020 17:01
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Lt. Lizard posted:To be fair, Chaos Androids sounds pretty drat rad. In general, its kinda weird that WH 40k never fully utilized the sci-fi cliché of "Mad, human-hating AI", despite it being pretty significant part of its back-story. What about 
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Aug 8, 2020 17:10
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Kaiju Cage Match posted:Is it just me or are demigryphs really squishy, even with good micromanagement?
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Aug 8, 2020 17:20
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wiegieman posted:A treeman hero/ROR with a damage aura and/or teleporting abilities. Yeah but the visual design seems too cool to be a RoR Treeman with a bound Flock of Doom and some kind of teleport (if possible).
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Aug 8, 2020 17:31
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Kaiju Cage Match posted:Is it just me or are demigryphs really squishy, even with good micromanagement? Demigryphs are shock cavalry. They charge in, do big damage, and pull out. Repeat. If you leave them in prolonged combat, their lovely defensive stats will get them killed. Either they break the opponent on the charge or they bail out and do it again.
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Aug 8, 2020 17:38
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The halberd ones also crush most other cavalry and are a huge threat against monsters, which usually have weak MD.
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Aug 8, 2020 17:50
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I've always had a hard time using cavalry in WH2, one or two models will always get stuck in a formation and then take heavy casualties trying to cycle charge them. This includes units like blood knights for me.
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Aug 8, 2020 18:35
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Mustang posted:I've always had a hard time using cavalry in WH2, one or two models will always get stuck in a formation and then take heavy casualties trying to cycle charge them. This includes units like blood knights for me. yeah the disengage isnt clean, its even worse for vargheists. i almost never bother with cycle charging but its nerfed in sfo
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Aug 8, 2020 18:43
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Uhhh the Omnissiah is the Emperor no? loving heretic idk if this is a jape but the omnissiah was a separate guy the mechanicus just said the emperor is the embodiment of the omnissiah so they wouldnt upset the inquisition
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Aug 8, 2020 20:55
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