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ZeusJupitar posted:The idea was briefly floated (don't ask me where) that gunpowder and steam technology only work for dwarfs/humans/ogres. Guns fizzled when orcs tried to use them. It's not really possible for anything to be 'non-magical' in a world where everything is drenched in magic. I believe this was specifically an orc thing, guns didn't work for them because they didn't believe dirt (gunpowder) should be able to explode. An example of the whole "the belief of orcs has real power" going in a way that doesn't benefit them. I can have moments of... eccentricity and sometimes be quite curious about things. Please forgive me if I do something foolish or rude.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:21
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ZeusJupitar posted:The idea was briefly floated (don't ask me where) that gunpowder and steam technology only work for dwarfs/humans/ogres. Guns fizzled when orcs tried to use them. It's not really possible for anything to be 'non-magical' in a world where everything is drenched in magic. I like to think that greenskins don't have the patience to reload a musket and any guns or cannons they find in dwarf holds just get melted down for more choppas anyway. Any black powder gets loaded into their suicide goblin launcher for those bombs. Skaven have guns too, it's just that the bullets and the black powder are all warpstone byproducts and they don't use traditional dwarven/human guns. Vampire count thralls probably don't have the dexterity or will to be able to use them (vampire coast not withstanding). Chaos and Norse are all about martial mastery and they snub even bows. I'm guessing Beastmen are a combination of the chaos/norse snubbing and a bit of the greenskin lack of patience. Brettonia is against the principle of guns because it's a peasant weapon and also probably a bad idea to pass them out en masse otherwise the commoners could go all French Revolution on the knights that run the show. Tomb Kings run on tradition and use the bows that they've been use to for millennia. Lizardmen are far enough removed from the dwarves that they don't really have access on top of sauruses not caring much for ranged in general and skinks not really being built for firearms use and "something something guns aren't in the great plan"
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Oct 24, 2017 14:29
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Stephen9001 posted:I believe this was specifically an orc thing, guns didn't work for them because they didn't believe dirt (gunpowder) should be able to explode. An example of the whole "the belief of orcs has real power" going in a way that doesn't benefit them. Isn't belief being a thing only a 40k ork trait?
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Oct 24, 2017 14:34
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Aurubin posted:Did they ever say in the fiction why elves don't use gunpowder? They seem to have gotten to high medieval tech and just stopped. Randarkman posted:Well historically early firearms weren't really all that more effective than either bows or crossbows. The reason they became such hot poo poo is that it really didn't take a whole lot of training to make a guy a decent arquebusier or handgunner, combine that with ammunition being cheap and easy to make and carry and you have a weapon that in many ways becomes more attractive for a large army than a bow which takes a long time to wield become efficient with and crossbows (crossbows had many of the same advantages of firearms in being easy to use, but later ones got more complex to make and ammunition still is cheaper for firearms and you have the whole psychological effect as well). Yeah, a bow (especially a longbow) is probably a superior weapon to most black powder firearms, it just takes a lot more training. For elves, a few hundred years of training isn't an issue. The real question is why would dwarves bother with crossbows.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:36
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Most of the the elves that invented their "high medieval tech" are still alive. They don't have so many new generations pushing progress forward. The eagle claw is a strange and unnecessary invention in the eyes of most voters.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:41
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Randarkman posted:Would be cool if they add Tilea they worked over its geography. Maybe make all the cities there special lots-of-slots capitals to reflect the city state structure there. That way you could also have Borgio in Miragliano, Lucrezzia in Pavona (or is it Trantio that's on the map?) and Lorenzo Lupo in Luccini (which should be an Elven colony) and have the situation be pretty balanced and stale-mate-ish. Also should have either Pirazzo or Marco Colombo leading New World Colonies. You probably want to look at Cataph's Southern Realms mod, if you haven't yet. If they retouch it I just hope they put Tobaro in Tilea instead of Estalia, since it's, well, a Tilean city. But maybe there's a limitation on non-contiguous regions or something.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:42
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Total War on Facebook posted:The Foundation Patch will not be present in this game, as we have updated our balance changes since. Instead, the patch arriving alongside Mortal Empires will have different balance changes, which we hope are better! Patch notes will be out tomorrow so players can judge for themselves. Patch info out tomorrow. I'm going insane.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:50
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The real question is why would dwarves bother with crossbows.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:52
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Ravenfood posted:Despite having invented gunpowder centuries ago, they think guns are dangerous newfangled technology that can't quite be trusted. Thunderers are pretty progressive and gyrocopters are downright modern. I've got to say I like TWW1's portrayal of Thorgrim as being like "technology is good as it allows us to better smite the grudge-makers". I can have moments of... eccentricity and sometimes be quite curious about things. Please forgive me if I do something foolish or rude.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:58
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The young are more or less socially forbidden to innovate or invent, and the old get stuck in their ways and/or realize that everything was perfect already!
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Oct 24, 2017 14:59
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Ravenfood posted:Despite having invented gunpowder centuries ago, they think guns are dangerous newfangled technology that can't quite be trusted. Thunderers are pretty progressive and gyrocopters are downright modern. There's a piece of lore on how the Dwarf Engineer Guild works when making new inventions and it's so hilariously uptight and conservative; despite that, they justify the arduous process because new technology that isn't vetted enough is liable to get innocent Dwarfs killed. Triple-Kan posted:Patch info out tomorrow. I'm going insane. Oh poo poo, so they did make other changes. gently caress, I hope that skill revamp is part of them.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:01
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Triple-Kan posted:Patch info out tomorrow. I'm going insane. Hopefully Chaos remains fun.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:05
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The real question is why would dwarves bother with crossbows. Aside from the "new fangled deathstick" thing it's also a matter of resource management, specifically that of gunpowder. You might be able to make a lot of it, but in an age of endless conflict and survival you're never going to have enough of it.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:13
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toasterwarrior posted:Oh poo poo, so they did make other changes. gently caress, I hope that skill revamp is part of them. I spotted that the Empire's Honest Steel skill now only goes to +8 melee attack/defence at tier 3 instead of +12 in TWW1, but now it affects Greatswords as well as basic infantry types. Don't know about others.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:14
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Stephen9001 posted:I've got to say I like TWW1's portrayal of Thorgrim as being like "technology is good as it allows us to better smite the grudge-makers". That and he's actually aggressive about settling grudges instead of just nursing them forever. Thorgrim is a dangerously radical dwarf by oldbeard standards.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:20
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John Charity Spring posted:I spotted that the Empire's Honest Steel skill now only goes to +8 melee attack/defence at tier 3 instead of +12 in TWW1, but now it affects Greatswords as well as basic infantry types. Don't know about others. It would still be really weird if they left out the new skill trees for Old Lords, because the "character unique tree that starts at level 12" is something all the new world Lords have and was obviously done to match the old lords up with them better. Now if they keep the old trees but revamp them heavily that's fine. Some of them were definitely a bit more inspired then others. (RIP Thorgrim, especially after he got nerfed in the hotfix for no reason whatsoever.)
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Oct 24, 2017 15:25
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Why does an intervention army one-turn besieging my capital turn my economy from +5k/turn to -3.5k/turn instant attrition to all armies (that aren't using an immune from attrition banner)? The entire province is only worth 2.5k income. Also why do materials found at sea make building a particular 3k building cost 300 when the discount was supposed to be 25%?
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Oct 24, 2017 15:44
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I confederated Morathi and all her points were put into a melee build 
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Oct 24, 2017 15:48
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Morathi isn't too bad in melee, get her the pegasus and her charge bonus skills and she is a beast. Ideally you will also want her spells obviously but it could have been worse.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:52
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sassassin posted:Why does an intervention army one-turn besieging my capital turn my economy from +5k/turn to -3.5k/turn instant attrition to all armies (that aren't using an immune from attrition banner)? The entire province is only worth 2.5k income. Are you getting a lot of money from trade? I think, but am not sure, that having your capital besieged cuts off your trade income too. Amuys posted:I confederated Morathi and all her points were put into a melee build
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Oct 24, 2017 15:53
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Honestly morathi’s spells are pretty poo poo. In my campaign I used her for the blue line and then as a hybrid melee/spellcaster. Cast a big aoe rebuff then charge in and start smashing face
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Oct 24, 2017 15:55
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John Charity Spring posted:I spotted that the Empire's Honest Steel skill now only goes to +8 melee attack/defence at tier 3 instead of +12 in TWW1, but now it affects Greatswords as well as basic infantry types. Don't know about others. Oh that's a good sign, I believe Gejnor made a good call on buffing Greatswords through Honest Steel with his mod back in WH1. Felt like it may have been too strong, so a cut to +8 sounds like a good trade-off.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:56
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Ravenfood posted:Are you getting a lot of money from trade? I think, but am not sure, that having your capital besieged cuts off your trade income too. Okay yeah that's a lot of money.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:59
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Morathi could really use one bound spell or one of her current spells swapped out for something better, but she's still a very strong caster. Having a ton of bonus winds and double discounted spells is nothing to scoff at. Dropping Overcast Pit of Shades for like 16 winds is a thing. Mind you I am using a mod that fixes her bugged second level of Pit of Shades and the general overcast spells not getting reduced cooldown bug. Also her unique tree gives you the best of the blue line with less points so I don't know why anyone would bother going down it, -30% upkeep armywide for one skill point is amazing. She also does a 180 in terms of melee effectiveness once she gets her halberd and tops of her melee tree, she's not a top-tier melee Lord but she's quite good, and the passive -18 or so melee attack for enemies in a huge radius is unique. Pretty much Morathi is just a slow starter. She's complete rear end the first couple levels but she ends up becoming a well-rounded powerhouse in the end.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:04
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DeathSandwich posted:Brettonia is against the principle of guns because it's a peasant weapon and also probably a bad idea to pass them out en masse otherwise the commoners could go all French Revolution on the knights that run the show. Oh, it's better than that. Bretonnia passed a law against firearms because a while back a Grail Knight and famous duelist challenged the Empire's deadliest duelist to, well, a duel. No rules, anything goes, Bretonnia's best against the Empire's best. The duel lasted about five seconds when the Imperial duelist drew a pistol and shot the Grail Knight in the face. Bretonnia promptly declared the duel invalid due to cheating and outlawed firearms.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:10
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Knobb Manwich posted:Do you mean that I should play custom battles and/or multiplayer to handle my gripes with the way total war games structure their single player campaigns? Yes. At least try it. Youre in the minority for how you want the campaign changed and you basically described those modes.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:17
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Scrub-Niggurath posted:Honestly morathi’s spells are pretty poo poo. In my campaign I used her for the blue line and then as a hybrid melee/spellcaster. Cast a big aoe rebuff then charge in and start smashing face I dunno, I've found Soulblight (reduces enemy armour and weapon damage in an area) super useful fo drastically increasing the longevity and effect of Witch Elves in particular. Pit of Shades and Soul Stealer are pretty decent, too. Mystifying Miasma is eh, but if nothing else it's a cheap way to get some damage in, and every now and then that speed reduction can make a difference.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:40
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Plavski posted:Isn't belief being a thing only a 40k ork trait? Savage Orc warpaint is implied to work on this principle but this is also a setting where magic and gods are real and actively intervene in the world so who knows, really.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:41
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Cythereal posted:Oh, it's better than that. Bretonnia passed a law against firearms because a while back a Grail Knight and famous duelist challenged the Empire's deadliest duelist to, well, a duel. No rules, anything goes, Bretonnia's best against the Empire's best. The duel lasted about five seconds when the Imperial duelist drew a pistol and shot the Grail Knight in the face. I believe the one exception is that the Bretonnian navy (such as it is) use cannons and possibly musket/pistols/etc, but that's carefully ignored since it lets their naval trade (which naturally the realm of the developing bourgeoisie) stay safe from pirates. Knights don't go to sea anyway.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:50
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I have a question! I haven't played either of the Warhammer Total War games but I've always been interested, just unable to due to the slight problem of money. Seeing the first Warhammer go on sale though, I wanted to ask if there's any reason to buy it when 2 is out? I know 2's campaign focuses on all these new and exciting factions, but is there any ability to play as the WH1 races even just in custom battles or whatever? I guess what I'm asking is if WH2 is objectively the superior game and experience, or if there's a lot of races and whatnot from 1 that aren't here and thus if 1 might be worth grabbing at thirty bucks.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:53
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Inverted Sphere posted:I have a question! I haven't played either of the Warhammer Total War games but I've always been interested, just unable to due to the slight problem of money. Seeing the first Warhammer go on sale though, I wanted to ask if there's any reason to buy it when 2 is out? I know 2's campaign focuses on all these new and exciting factions, but is there any ability to play as the WH1 races even just in custom battles or whatever? At the very least, if you own both versions, you get access to a combined super map which is released on 26. So, if you want to try out the first because it is on sale, and decide you really like it and would like more, it's in no way a waste. The sequel is more of a giant, standalone expansion.
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Oct 24, 2017 17:00
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If you buy 1 and 2 you get access to the Grand Campaign that mashes both games together. Both are good!
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Oct 24, 2017 17:00
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Right now, WH1 and 2 are completely separate: they're set on different maps and have different factions. In two days, we're getting free dlc that combines the maps from both games (if you own them) into one giant map. edit: beaten
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Oct 24, 2017 17:00
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Cpt_Obvious posted:At the very least, if you own both versions, you get access to a combined super map which is released on 26. So, if you want to try out the first because it is on sale, and decide you really like it and would like more, it's in no way a waste. The sequel is more of a giant, standalone expansion. Oh poo poo, that's a really drat cool concept, and that'll literally have every single faction and both maps doing their crazy poo poo at the same time? So it sounds like as someone who really, really loves Total War and is pretty sure mixing in Warhammer only makes it better, it's absolutely worth it to get both and doubly worth it to grab WH1 while it's on sale. Thank you! Should I be terribly concerned about any of the DLC for WH1 at present, or is that something that could probably wait?
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Oct 24, 2017 17:03
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Inverted Sphere posted:Oh poo poo, that's a really drat cool concept, and that'll literally have every single faction and both maps doing their crazy poo poo at the same time? So it sounds like as someone who really, really loves Total War and is pretty sure mixing in Warhammer only makes it better, it's absolutely worth it to get both and doubly worth it to grab WH1 while it's on sale. Thank you! In my opinion most of the DLC is pretty good and I think is on sale, but it's up to you. Worth noting that it will also carry over to the mega campaign if you do buy it. However, whether you own the dlc or not, all the factions would be present in the campaign, just not playable until you have the DLC.
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Oct 24, 2017 17:06
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Inverted Sphere posted:Oh poo poo, that's a really drat cool concept, and that'll literally have every single faction and both maps doing their crazy poo poo at the same time? So it sounds like as someone who really, really loves Total War and is pretty sure mixing in Warhammer only makes it better, it's absolutely worth it to get both and doubly worth it to grab WH1 while it's on sale. Thank you! "Grim and Grave" plus "King and Warlord" are probably the closest I'd get to describing the DLC as "necessary" but you can ignore the faction dlc unless you're super into that faction.
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Oct 24, 2017 17:07
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Inverted Sphere posted:Oh poo poo, that's a really drat cool concept, and that'll literally have every single faction and both maps doing their crazy poo poo at the same time? So it sounds like as someone who really, really loves Total War and is pretty sure mixing in Warhammer only makes it better, it's absolutely worth it to get both and doubly worth it to grab WH1 while it's on sale. Thank you! Make sure to grab all the free ones, if Steam doesn't automatically add them for you. If Chaos Warriors, Wood Elves or Beastmen appeal to you it's worth it to pick them up. Wood Elves and Beastmen are considerably more interesting that Chaos Warriors. Grim and the Grave adds some units and Legendary Lords to Empire and Vampire Counts. It's fine but only really worthwhile if you play those factions. King and the Warlord adds some units and Legendary Lords to Dwarfs and Greenskins and also adds 2 new start locations for those factions. It's somewhat better than Grim and the Grave. Norsca is really cool but won't be added to WH2 on thursday, though it will be at a later date.
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Oct 24, 2017 17:09
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Yvonmukluk posted:I believe the one exception is that the Bretonnian navy (such as it is) use cannons and possibly musket/pistols/etc, but that's carefully ignored since it lets their naval trade (which naturally the realm of the developing bourgeoisie) stay safe from pirates. Knights don't go to sea anyway. I think it's argued that gunpowder is banned in the land of Bretonnia, and since ships are on the sea they don't count. And since there's little glory to be had in ship-to-ship combat and no chance of using cavalry, Knights pretty much ignore anything naval unless they need transport somewhere.
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Oct 24, 2017 17:18
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Archaeology Hat posted:Make sure to grab all the free ones, if Steam doesn't automatically add them for you. King and Warlord is basically required if you want to play greenskins to any real degree. Sneaky Stabbers are one of your only options for AP damage before you have access to your monsters and the badlands is a nonstop dwarf brawl. Skarsnik is also a really fun lord on his own. Your armies are cheap as chips and shockingly effective once the lords (both Skarsnik and the generic night goblin big boss flavors) level up because your gobbos will have 60ish melee attack depending on veteran level and you'll have poison across the board, even for stuff that doesn't have it normally like the generic gobbos, wolf riders, wolf chariots, ect.
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Oct 24, 2017 17:21
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MadJackMcJack posted:I think it's argued that gunpowder is banned in the land of Bretonnia, and since ships are on the sea they don't count. And since there's little glory to be had in ship-to-ship combat and no chance of using cavalry, Knights pretty much ignore anything naval unless they need transport somewhere. Unless they're from Bordeleaux. In which case their errantry was probably as a midshipman.
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Oct 24, 2017 17:28
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