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Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


Mel Mudkiper posted:

The turn off to inter gender violence comes when the woman is implicitly suggested to be inherently inferior.

the turn off happens when a man beats the poo poo out of a woman on live TV, which is what will inevitably happen when you book them with parity in a non-comedy match

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Alaois
Feb 7, 2012



wow amazing Mel Mudkiper is here to act like he knows a single goddamn thing about anything despite everyone telling him he's wrong this never happens

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


*the undertaker brutally powerbombs a woman through a table after beating her with a chair* this is woke

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

Is it a Pittsburgh fan?
Is it a Denver fan?
Who can say?

Feels Villeneuve posted:

the turn off happens when a man beats the poo poo out of a woman on live TV, which is what will inevitably happen when you book them with parity in a non-comedy match

Happens all the time in movies and tv shows and no one bats an eye as long as the implicit understanding is that they are equals.

Take both John Wick movies or pretty much the entire MCU

OctoberCountry
Oct 9, 2012


It's way more disingenuous to call something run by AAA and a bunch of wealthy LA television producers on a famous Hollywood director's vanity start-up channel a "small company"

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006



It's a good thing wrestling isn't a sport where the majority of the men are at a size unattainable by women and 200 years of establishing height and weight = king.

Aphrodite fucked around with this message at Oct 12, 2017 around 18:13

DeathChicken
Jul 9, 2012

Nonsense. I have not yet begun to defile myself.

But but my suspension of disbelief, Black Widow clearly has less muscle mass than the 800 stormtroopers she just beat up and furthermore

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Weight divisions are not a requirement anymore but they can definitely be a good thing if your company has an open mind set to smaller guys. If they are a level down from the big guys but can main event small shows, fine. If in the case of NJPW you can regularly graduate guys to the heavyweight division and main event with them, awesome.

In WWE's case they just stink at it but they needed an excuse to horde indie talent so here we are.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

Is it a Pittsburgh fan?
Is it a Denver fan?
Who can say?

DeathChicken posted:

But but my suspension of disbelief, Black Widow clearly has less muscle mass than the 800 stormtroopers she just beat up and furthermore

Yeah this is essentially my point. Its not like narrative rules that establish this stuff to the reader/viewer as plausible haven't been laid out in literally every other form of narrative.

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006



And anyway the one entity left in the world who wants WWE says no.

Marquis de Pyro
Sep 25, 2006

Evil Prevails

Maybe Lucha Underground sucked for reasons other than gender and weight disparities in matches

for example the stupid rear end storylines and ridiculously expensive production to have said stupid storylines in an abandoned warehouse

DeathChicken
Jul 9, 2012

Nonsense. I have not yet begun to defile myself.

Basically you have two different arguments going here, the inherit ickiness of filmed situations in which a man fights a woman (valid) and another argument against the realism of someone smaller fighting against someone bigger, which is super spergy and dumb

Cavauro
Jan 9, 2008

We All Live In Kawalimus' House


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrjStSqu_w4

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


DeathChicken posted:

Basically you have two different arguments going here, the inherit ickiness of filmed situations in which a man fights a woman (valid) and another argument against the realism of someone smaller fighting against someone bigger, which is super spergy and dumb

wrestling is not a comic book, or an action movie, it is a worked sport.

DeathChicken
Jul 9, 2012

Nonsense. I have not yet begun to defile myself.

It is completely a comic book action movie. No one considers wrestling remotely a sport and no one ever has

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

Is it a Pittsburgh fan?
Is it a Denver fan?
Who can say?

DeathChicken posted:

Basically you have two different arguments going here, the inherit ickiness of filmed situations in which a man fights a woman (valid) and another argument against the realism of someone smaller fighting against someone bigger, which is super spergy and dumb

I agree. I do think other kinds of narratives have found a way around the ickiness though, which is what I am suggesting.

Feels Villeneuve posted:

wrestling is not a comic book, or an action movie, it is a worked sport.

Wrestling is not a worked sport. It is a performance art.

Corzaa
Aug 1, 2006




Eli Wiggum posted:

Wasn't Rey's World Title run pretty much a joke? All I really remember from it is Big Show and JBL tossing him around like a rag doll

Which one? Rey is a THREE time Champion.

OJ MIST 2 THE DICK
Sep 10, 2008

Anytime I need to see your face I just close my eyes
And I am taken to a place
Where your crystal minds and magenta feelings
Take up shelter in the base of my spine
Sweet like a chica cherry cola

-Cheap Trick


Nap Ghost

DeathChicken posted:

It is completely a comic book action movie. No one considers wrestling remotely a sport and no one ever has

Right which is why athletic commissions have never sanctioned pro wrestling matches.

OJ MIST 2 THE DICK
Sep 10, 2008

Anytime I need to see your face I just close my eyes
And I am taken to a place
Where your crystal minds and magenta feelings
Take up shelter in the base of my spine
Sweet like a chica cherry cola

-Cheap Trick


Nap Ghost

Wait


Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

Is it a Pittsburgh fan?
Is it a Denver fan?
Who can say?

exploded mummy posted:

Right which is why athletic commissions have never pro wrestling sanctioned matches.

This seems to be a vestigial limb of the sport's century long history more than a meaningful defense of its nature

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


DeathChicken posted:

It is completely a comic book action movie. No one considers wrestling remotely a sport and no one ever has

It is presented as a sport. There are ridiculous gimmicks or comedy matches depending on which promotion you want to watch but the core of it is a worked wrestling match where someone tries to pin someone else. I'm not saying every promotion is RINGS or some poo poo but especially during its most successful periods, it's been presented as a sport (which everyone knew was worked).

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

Is it a Pittsburgh fan?
Is it a Denver fan?
Who can say?

*an undead man and his brother from hell appear in a burst of fire and mist as spooky music plays*

This is not a comic book!!!!!!

DeathChicken
Jul 9, 2012

Nonsense. I have not yet begun to defile myself.

Yes, because athletic commissions were totally doing that because they believed in the legitimacy of pro wrestling and not because it was an easy cash grab

Drew McIntyre
Oct 24, 2001

i'll always take care of you


Muldoon

cirque de soleil is also a sport

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

Is it a Pittsburgh fan?
Is it a Denver fan?
Who can say?

Feels Villeneuve posted:

but especially during its most successful periods, it's been presented as a sport (which everyone knew was worked).

The Attitude Era never pretended to be a sport

OJ MIST 2 THE DICK
Sep 10, 2008

Anytime I need to see your face I just close my eyes
And I am taken to a place
Where your crystal minds and magenta feelings
Take up shelter in the base of my spine
Sweet like a chica cherry cola

-Cheap Trick


Nap Ghost

Mel Mudkiper posted:

The Attitude Era never pretended to be a sport

Brawl For All!

OctoberCountry
Oct 9, 2012


Mel Mudkiper posted:

*an undead man and his brother from hell appear in a burst of fire and mist as spooky music plays*

This is not a comic book!!!!!!

Yes, wrestling is literally not a comic book

Drew McIntyre
Oct 24, 2001

i'll always take care of you


Muldoon

Wacky Races isn't a cartoon, it's a worked racing invitational event

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

Is it a Pittsburgh fan?
Is it a Denver fan?
Who can say?

exploded mummy posted:

Brawl For All!

Brawl for All was literally them going

"and now for some REAL FIGHTING"

Bill Goldberg posted:

Wacky Races isn't a cartoon, it's a worked racing invitational event

lol

rare Magic card l00k
Jan 3, 2011

Me uni a la Revolucion #RXT


el sabe ...


Any benefit in viewership from the theory of how cool it is for men and women to hit each other will be offset by advertisers, who already tend to dislike wrestling, going 'oh wow that sure is a real man really hitting a real woman' and nope'ing the gently caress out of there.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

The Attitude Era never pretended to be a sport

The whole boom period was kicked off intrigue in the idea of Mike Tyson vs Steve Austin and the most successful year of the Attitude era was presented much more seriously and toned down.

OJ MIST 2 THE DICK
Sep 10, 2008

Anytime I need to see your face I just close my eyes
And I am taken to a place
Where your crystal minds and magenta feelings
Take up shelter in the base of my spine
Sweet like a chica cherry cola

-Cheap Trick


Nap Ghost

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Brawl for All was literally them going

"and now for some REAL FIGHTING"

So we agree it was being presented as a real sport


Because it legitimately was a shoot

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

Is it a Pittsburgh fan?
Is it a Denver fan?
Who can say?

rare Magic card l00k posted:

Any benefit in viewership from the theory of how cool it is for men and women to hit each other will be offset by advertisers, who already tend to dislike wrestling, going 'oh wow that sure is a real man really hitting a real woman' and nope'ing the gently caress out of there.

There are dozens of shows that have way better and more regular advertisers that regularly have inter-gender fights. It all goes back to context.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


Mel Mudkiper posted:

Brawl for All was literally them going

"and now for some REAL FIGHTING"

Yeah and it was a total failure and everyone hated it, because as it turns out nobody likes it when you treat the actual wrestling matches on your show like a total joke. See: Vince Russo

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006



Actually Mr. USA this isn't pro wrestling it's an adaptation of La Femme Nikita.

Okay Vince I definitely believe that and this is a realistic conversation thank you.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Love the WWE is just a performance art and not a worked sport on the eve of Vince once again selling the product as sports programming to try to get those rights fees.

Something they spent two whole years doing during the last set of negotiations. But hey Vince is out of touch he doesn't know what his product is.

Drew McIntyre
Oct 24, 2001

i'll always take care of you


Muldoon

doesn't Chikara, the family friendly indie for all ages, run intergender matches

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

Is it a Pittsburgh fan?
Is it a Denver fan?
Who can say?

exploded mummy posted:

So we agree it was being presented as a real sport


Because it legitimately was a shoot

Right, WWE was not presenting its main product as a sport because it would literally pause RAW a few times a week to say "and now for a SPORT in between all this wrestling"

Feels Villeneuve posted:

Yeah and it was a total failure and everyone hated it, because as it turns out nobody likes it when you treat the actual wrestling matches on your show like a total joke. See: Vince Russo

I think it had much more to do with the narrative whiplash of being told that something is fake but THIS is real

Like, I agree completely with Jim Cornette that a company needs to pick a atmosphere and stick with it. You cannot have comedy invisible hand grenades and serious wrestling on the same card. The audience needs an established reality to believe in. Once that reality is established though, as long as its consistent it will be successful.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Bill Goldberg posted:

doesn't Chikara, the family friendly indie for all ages, run intergender matches

And their business and buzz has fallen way off in recent years.

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Drew McIntyre
Oct 24, 2001

i'll always take care of you


Muldoon

MassRafTer posted:

And their business and buzz has fallen way off in recent years.

i don't think that's because they let the girls fight the boys

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