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MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


tweet my meat posted:

I'm amazed that they handled the Enzo and Kalisto moves so well. They built up both wrestlers in a way that made 205 one of the hot storylines, and had a good, if short, title run for Enzo that had interesting angles and a satisfying conclusion. They even let Enzo put up an actual fight in the title loss, and he actually did pretty well which lets him be an actual threat in future angles. Now 205 has two new wrestlers that are already over and they gave Neville a huge push as well. No one came out of that feud looking bad.

Enzo was constantly beaten up and chumped while cutting promos about how the other guys can't draw and then lost the title in a month to a guy who has been nothing but a jobber.

No one came out of this looking good.

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MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


cams posted:

who do you guys think are the biggest tryhards in the wwe? imo i feel it's sheamus and cesaro in the ring, new day with everything else.

i like it when people try hard.

Roman Reigns tries really hard that's why he has so many four star matches.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Aphrodite posted:

Club is not a cool sounding word. It makes things sound childish, or dad-ish.

Bullet Brothers. That's a name.

It was named after a dad with a hot Asian wife.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Two Beans posted:

Where they at least treat their Juniors as a big deal that's on par with the heavyweights,

No they don't.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


keevo posted:

Wait wrestlers still aren't being paid for streams on the Network, right?

Probably never will be and there's no reason that wasn't part of the thinking in starting up the Network when they had a more profitable PPV business.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Two Beans posted:

Does the Junior Heavyweight division not have its own tag titles in addition to a singles title?

Do heavyweights regularly clown on the juniors?

Do junior matches get bumped off the main card, do they get truncated to 5 minute match times?

Are juniors not given special entrances for their matches?

Are Junior Heavyweight Champions chumped on pay per views by wedding DJs with funny hair, then written off because "creative has nothing for them"?

Do the junior heavyweights main event major shows?

Do top juniors make as much as top heavyweights?

Given how rushed junior tag title matches are the answer to the third question is yes, they do. Or they put the winners of a tournament into a four way because there is no room for a regular junior heavyweight tag title match on the card.

When the top junior faces the top heavyweight do they lose 95% of the time?

They are not treated as poorly as in WWE but they are not on par with the heavyweights and historically have not been.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

Heres an idea

Wrestling is fake and weight and gender shouldn't matter because it's all dumb video game fights anyways

Wrestling is supposed to allow you to suspend disbelief and in real combat sports weight and gender do matter so such things can be useful. Furthermore, misogyny is very real so gender definitely should matter so male power fantasies aren't played out through intergender matches.

But hey, wrestling keeps getting less popular the more it is treated as a dumb video game fight where nothing matters so let's keep at it.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

No one says anything about weight classes or male power fantasies when Scarlett Johansson beats up a bunch of dudes

Wrestling is not the movies and there's plenty of movies where that criticism comes up.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

We cannot make wrestling more inclusive and diverse because appealing to more people will make less people watch it

Look at how successful Lucha Underground was!

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Eli Wiggum posted:

Wasn't Rey's World Title run pretty much a joke? All I really remember from it is Big Show and JBL tossing him around like a rag doll

You forgot Khali doing the same then!

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

Ha the limited success of an obscure non touring wrestling promotion on a channel most people haven't even heard from proves my point

Limited success? It lost tons of money and viewership went down even as the channel became more available. Also it was cancelled off its widest distribution channel after one season.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

Limited success is a synonym for unsuccessful, not a synonym for "a little bit of success"

I cannot believe I have to point that out

The word is "Flop"

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Gumball Gumption posted:

Amount of money made is also a terrible indicator of anything. Lucha Underground is a good show with bad management so it makes poo poo money. WWE is a terrible show that knows how to make money. Success is not an indication of quality.

That's why I included two indicators, money lost and audience lost. The show was cancelled by one network and as El Rey was available in MORE homes, less people watched.

The show also has zero buzz now so even the people watching don't talk about it much.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

It was sarcasm. My point was that a small company on a small channel that doesn't tour or even do regular shows being unsuccessful is not unsuccessful because they have inter gender matches and it's disingenuous to suggest as much.

They wanted to tour but the company has flopped and those plans kept being kicked down the road.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Weight divisions are not a requirement anymore but they can definitely be a good thing if your company has an open mind set to smaller guys. If they are a level down from the big guys but can main event small shows, fine. If in the case of NJPW you can regularly graduate guys to the heavyweight division and main event with them, awesome.

In WWE's case they just stink at it but they needed an excuse to horde indie talent so here we are.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

The Attitude Era never pretended to be a sport

The whole boom period was kicked off intrigue in the idea of Mike Tyson vs Steve Austin and the most successful year of the Attitude era was presented much more seriously and toned down.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Love the WWE is just a performance art and not a worked sport on the eve of Vince once again selling the product as sports programming to try to get those rights fees.

Something they spent two whole years doing during the last set of negotiations. But hey Vince is out of touch he doesn't know what his product is.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Bill Goldberg posted:

doesn't Chikara, the family friendly indie for all ages, run intergender matches

And their business and buzz has fallen way off in recent years.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Bill Goldberg posted:

i don't think that's because they let the girls fight the boys

I wouldn't either but it sure didn't go the way Quack wanted.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

I genuinely do not understand what your point is here

WWE sells their product to TV stations as sports programming, not as a drama, comedy or action-adventure series. They market it as a sport and compare it to sports.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

Unless its the longest running weekly scripted television program!

Like, did you just forget when they didn't shut up about that for a year

They don't say scripted.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

my bad

still pretty much the same thing though. Episode inherently suggests scripted television. The NFL doesn't call its games episodes.

WWE loves weird jargon and awkward phrasing.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

there is no evidence inter-gender violence killed Lucha Underground's ratings though. I am not ignoring it, I am saying its not true.

The Season 3 decline started right after Sexy Star's one week reign.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

fair


That wasn't their first inter-gender match though. Its been there since season 1. Sounds like a bad champ lowered ratings, not the fact she is a woman.

The show was also cancelled on its biggest outlet after Season 1.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

I feel like you are really grasping at straws to try and prove your point

At first the proof was that LU declined after having a woman champ.

Then when that was pointed out to be misleading, you started saying that actually they were never strong at all because of intergender wrestling.

Are you seriously suggesting the primary, or even a major contribution, to the weakness of LU after its first season was women wrestling men and not the myriad of other significant problems it had?

My main point is Lucha Underground is a failure. Early on the showrunners pointed to things like inter gender wrestling as an important selling feature of the show and how progressive it was. The show did not take off and lost its main outlet. So something about it wasn't connecting. A main selling point would be this.

Then, in Season 3 they put the title on Sexy Star and viewership fell right after.

Why did it get canned? It doesn't connect with its audience, but to think a major selling point of the show had nothing to do with that is idiotic.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

An overbudget experimental niche product on a small cable channel had a lot more reasons for failing than the fact they advertised intergender matches

The budget is irrelevant to the Unimas cancellation. The show did not attract the viewers or advertisers they expected. The on screen product is the reason for that.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Mel Mudkiper posted:

and you think the onscreen product's failure to catch on was because of intergender matches? Its not like letting women wrestle men was the only or even primary way LU was marketing itself as different. Even without intergender matches, it was still an experimental single-camera weekly bulk recorded television show that emphasized telenovela storytelling side-by-side with the wrestling. There are a ton of reasons the product didn't catch on.

No I think it failed because it stinks and no one wants to watch it, but when the producers keep bringing up intergender matches and how progressive it's fair to assume that's part of it. Could just be that Sexy Star sucks and no one likes her too!

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


projecthalaxy posted:

What is RINGS please

Akira Maeda's shootstyle promotion that later became a full MMA promotion. They and UWFi were the two major worked shootstyle promotions of the 90s. Check out some Volk Han matches.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


tweet my meat posted:

I'm glad that we have all come to the logical conclusion that women should not be allowed to perform with their male peers and that anyone who supports it wants to see women getting beaten down in the middle of the ring for 15 minutes instead of an actual wrestling match.

Thank you all for providing evidence that lucha underground failed because it allowed a woman to compete and win a title, and not because it was a wildly experimental show in an almost entirely different format from traditional wrestling.

A wrestling show: But bad is not experimental it is tried and true.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


It's a picture of Arthur C. Korn the founder of the band of the same name.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


It's a 4 vs 3 because it helps build heat when babyfaces are out numbered.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Alan_Shore posted:

Cody is a better wrestler than Roman, I mean that's not even up for debate. Also his Doctor Doom/shattered gimmick was more entertaining than anything Roman has ever done.

Cody isn't close to the level of Roman when it comes to timing, psychology or big match quality. Not even close. The stupid "Doctor Doom" gimmick killed all the momentum he had with Dashing Cody Rhodes and hurt his career in a big way. Awful gimmick.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


The_Rob posted:

Romans timing is good but his psychology is loving awful. He tells the same story every single match, and constantly does things just because even though there is no rhyme or reason.

Except his matches always peak at the right time. The guy is absolutely fantastic at building a match and manipulating crowds. There's a reason the ending stretch to Roman Reigns title matches are red hot. Meanwhile Cody's big ROH matches never seem to peak right. They start to reach a higher gear and then end suddenly, or plod along.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Cavauro posted:

okada could get 5 stars out of roman

Okada/Roman has surpassed Tanahashi/Cena as a dream match for me. It's not quite at Undertaker/Kobashi level yet.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


The_Rob posted:

I can't remember the last time the crowd was truly red hot for a Roman match. Other than the Braun matches which are gimmicked to the core to the point where it's literally him and Braun waiting around for each other to hit their super planned spots.

At this point big WWE matches are going to be gimmicked to an absurd degree that you better be able to master it. The best main roster match that wasn't is what, Cena/AJ which was two dudes doing big moves and near falls five minutes into the match. It's a big move and stunt in ring product.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


The_Rob posted:

I think Roman is a dude who can follow instructions very well, but if he was put in a match with no real training wheels we would see him fall apart pretty fast.

The first half of this probably gets to the heart of why he is very well liked and put into the position he is even if I disagree with the second half.

Strawberry Panda posted:

The crowd is red hot for Roman matches!

*Roman puts the crowd to sleep at two WM main events in a row.

Both have unique reasons for being bad but both were bad and are not a feather in his cap.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


VJeff posted:

Roman Reigns' last two Wrestlemania main events sucked because HHH is bad at epic matches and Undertaker is old and broken down.

Roman Reigns' matches with Kevin Owens, Seth Rollins, AJ Styles, Finn Balor, Rusev and so on were good because of Roman Reigns' incredible psychology.

Roman Reigns' match with John Cena was a boring, plodding mess because of, uhhhh.... *throws smoke bomb and runs away*

Twitter loved that Cena match.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


VJeff posted:

If we wanna talk about psychology, let's talk about Roman Reigns vs. Jason Jordan. Jordan was running wild on Roman, charged at Roman in the corner, Roman moves, Jordan gets posted. Jordan falls onto the apron. Roman hits the Drive-By. Roman hits the Superman Punch. Roman hits the Spear. Match over.

That is some lame loving psychology. It's like they reached an arbitrary "okay, Jordan's gotten enough offense, time to end the match now" point, then Roman just hit his three moves and pinned him. It was about the laziest finish I can remember seeing on TV in quite a while.


Twitter is an idiot!

Sounds like the right way to end a match like that. "Up and coming guy gets the better of the star, makes one mistake and pays for it" is a pretty tried and true way to give the new guy something in defeat.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Invalid Validation posted:

If you think Roman is amazing, thatís great, just donít complain when he has the belt and canít single handedly hold the company up (because heís weak).

Live attendance only started cratering when Roman started losing on every Raw PPV!

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MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


OGB posted:

OK, so, since we're kinda swirling around the normal Roman talk:

If not Roman, then who, should be the top guy?

Or are we in a phase beyond "THE" top guy? More of a late 90's-early 2000's era, with multiple top guy options?

If AJ, Cena, Roman, Seth, Dean, Braun, Joe, Bray and Finn were trading the title, I think we'd be in a good spot. Maybe even add dudes like Miz and Corbin as flukey-heel champs/challengers?

Is Brock as "sometimes champ" hurting the fed overall?

What would work best here, if tomorrow, Vince suddenly had a moment of clarity?

The late 90s had Steve Austin who the entire show was built around, let's not pretend here. So much so that it taught bookers some bad habits regarding overexposing their stars. After his injury it was a bit more even until his retirement but he was still the top guy. Maybe we're in a mid 90s era where the next guy didn't really pan out they just try new things every six months or so until someone catches fire.

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