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Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

This knight was born to be THE BEST! Just like all the billions like him!


Eh, it's not that Dragoons can't go in the back row. Their only attack that cares about row is Buster Cannon, and depending on how you play you might never bother using it in the first place. It's just that if you have room in your front row, you might as well put the Dragoon there to take advantage of enemies hitting the front row more often.

Grand Gigas posted:

I'm doing a second runthrough with the classes I didn't use. I got a Dragoon, Harbinger, Masauro, Necromancer, and Botanist. It feels good. It feels strong. I mean I'm sure part of that is a few new game plus benefits I alotted myself (mid-stratum 2 equipment) but they're pretty fuckin' good.

One of these days I'm going to do a playthrough with classes I didn't use much. The only one I can't really get a handle on is Necromancer, though. I tried one for a while and just couldn't really get into it--needing to constantly maintain wraiths was a pain. Maybe if I go for the Broker spec (is that the Fair Trade one?) I'll have a better time, since that has Gates of Hell which will let me summon a wraith while also doing something else with that turn.

Harrow fucked around with this message at Nov 8, 2017 around 15:18

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LordHippoman
May 30, 2013


I'm guessing Necromancer is one of those classes that starts to shine more later? Right now it just kinda feels like I'm going Summon Wraith into Fire Bomb, which costs two turns, some HP, and 20 TP, while my Warlock basically does that with Fireball for a little more damage in one turn and 7 TP.

Poison Bomb seems pretty good though.

I'm having similar feelings about Harbinger.

Jimmy Hats
May 8, 2012

yeah that was pretty good



The other reason to backrow your dragoon would be so dragon force triggers on the front row.

werbear
Jan 14, 2017


LordHippoman posted:

I'm going Summon Wraith into Fire Bomb, which costs two turns, some HP, and 20 TP

You can summon Wraiths (and Rover pets) out of combat so your Necro can "reload" between fights.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


Oh poo poo, pets have their own row now. When did that happen?

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

This knight was born to be THE BEST! Just like all the billions like him!


Pollyanna posted:

Oh poo poo, pets have their own row now. When did that happen?

The summon row is new in EO5 and it's awesome.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


Harrow posted:

The summon row is new in EO5 and it's awesome.

Hmm, I expected to deal with the usual "what spot is left?" dealio. Alright, I'll take a look at my party composition again.

I've got one of each class now. Wonder if I should keep everyone around the same level or just forge ahead with a subset.

Edit: Aaand my Wraiths aren't listening to me. drat, I need to do some more research.

Pollyanna fucked around with this message at Nov 8, 2017 around 16:57

Tired Moritz
Mar 25, 2012

wish Lowtax would get tired of YOUR POSTS

(n o i c e)


Fire bomb is terrible.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


Tired Moritz posted:

Fire bomb is terrible.

I read this right after I put a point in it.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

This knight was born to be THE BEST! Just like all the billions like him!


Eventually you'll get an accessory that lets your reserve party members get half the XP from each battle that your main party does (more specifically, they get 10% XP from each battle, while in a five-character party each character gets 20% XP), which can help keep your reserve members within a few levels of your main team. Then again if you have the XP grinding DLC keeping one of each class leveled up becomes trivial.

Pollyanna posted:

I read this right after I put a point in it.

You might need points in it eventually anyway just to unlock other abilities so don't worry too much about one point. Not really worth investing heavily in until you get mastery titles and decide if you want the abilities it leads to, though.

Tired Moritz
Mar 25, 2012

wish Lowtax would get tired of YOUR POSTS

(n o i c e)


yeah, fire bomb leads to good skills but it's terrible to use on its own. I guess if you really need to use fire magic for conditionals

even the first boss where it might be useful, I ended up using poison bomb a lot more.

blizzardvizard
Sep 12, 2012

Shhh... don't wake up the sleeping lion

I use Fire Bomb from time to time but it's just ridiculously expensive for what it does.

Necro's good skills from both specs are locked behind Fire Bomb though, so there's no harm putting 1 point in it now, and you might need it as an emergency damage option or something

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

This knight was born to be THE BEST! Just like all the billions like him!


Tired Moritz posted:

yeah, fire bomb leads to good skills but it's terrible to use on its own. I guess if you really need to use fire magic for conditionals

even the first boss where it might be useful, I ended up using poison bomb a lot more.

Poison Bomb is way better. Poison in general owns a lot. If you have a Deathbringer Harbinger you might not want to use Poison Bomb (just because Harbinger's poison damage is noticeably higher), but otherwise it's awesome.

Handgun Phonics
Jan 7, 2012


I cleared out the 3rd and about half of the 4th stratum on a business trip. Been running Combo Pug / 1 Sword Mas // Dog Rover / Summon Necro (for better poison bombs) / Heal Shaman.

I'm starting to see my Rover run out of things to do, he feels like an accessory to his dog's passive heals and the Shaman's finally outpacing those. Foot Pierce is mostly just row damage, and I use Aid Command so rarely I might as well pop some Medicas and spare the TP. Thinking of swapping him for an Ailment Harbinger, adding Frigid Reap to my selection of disgusting super attacks on helpless enemies- are there any tricks or pitfalls when setting up a Harbinger?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Joke's on them.


Given that each class has a couple options in terms of focus, I feel like being middling in both/all focuses is worse than hyperfocusing on one of them. Is it a problem if my Harbinger has some ailment skills as well as its other stuff, or is there less of a punishment for skill breadth compared to other games?

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

This knight was born to be THE BEST! Just like all the billions like him!


Pollyanna posted:

Given that each class has a couple options in terms of focus, I feel like being middling in both/all focuses is worse than hyperfocusing on one of them. Is it a problem if my Harbinger has some ailment skills as well as its other stuff, or is there less of a punishment for skill breadth compared to other games?

Eventually the master titles you get after the 2nd stratum sort of push you into one focus or the other, but for now just take what's necessary. Build for what you find useful now, not for the future--resting only costs 2 levels, and you get 5 skill points immediately on picking a master title anyway.

That said, if you go for an ailment-focused Harbinger (Deathbringer title), the debuff skills (Stifling and Wilting Miasma) are both still very, very useful. My Deathbringer uses them all the time. A debuff-focused (Deathguard) Harbinger has less use for the ailment skills, but those also represent your best source of damage before you get master titles so it's worth putting point into them now even if you go Deathguard later.

werbear
Jan 14, 2017


Handgun Phonics posted:

are there any tricks or pitfalls when setting up a Harbinger?

For a Deathbringer I found Auto-Miasma almost a necessity so they can actually contribute to a fight since their damage outside of Frigid Reap is too low to not also inflict an ailment.

Harbinger Poison is stronger than Necro poison but only targets a line; leveling both is probably a waste.

Wraiths can overwrite poison with their paralysis but that should have happened by now a few times with your Necro alone.
But they can also wake sleeping targets - and Frigid Reap needs Judgement.
So it can happen that your Harbinger manages to panic an enemy, that enemy hits your Harbinger and activates Judgement which puts it to sleep only for a Wraith to wake it up with their 30 damage hit - eating a single turn and giving accumulated resistances to both sleep and panic... It happened to me. Several times.

Bloody Reap is a horrible skill unless you have a dedicated healer that immediatly fixes your Harbinger. Since it needs Miasma Armor and Miasma Armor gives a speed boost your Harbinger will likely move before the enemy which makes the HP sacrifice really critical. And in random encounters the damage gets spread too thin.

Pollyanna posted:

Is it a problem if my Harbinger has some ailment skills as well as its other stuff, or is there less of a punishment for skill breadth compared to other games?

Kinda. The 5th stratum boss can be a bit of a brick wall but everything else feels like it's ok if your party is only starting to come together at the start of the 6th stratum (which is super late, of course).
Even the way the post-game bosses are handled makes it less punishing if you are not super optimized.

Handgun Phonics
Jan 7, 2012


werbear posted:

Wraiths can overwrite poison with their paralysis but that should have happened by now a few times with your Necro alone.
But they can also wake sleeping targets - and Frigid Reap needs Judgement.
So it can happen that your Harbinger manages to panic an enemy, that enemy hits your Harbinger and activates Judgement which puts it to sleep only for a Wraith to wake it up with their 30 damage hit - eating a single turn and giving accumulated resistances to both sleep and panic... It happened to me. Several times.

That sounds... kind of like a nightmare. Who thought Judgment was a good idea for a skill? For a passive prereq, even?

Two questions out of that-
1) did they change the ailment priority list with the new Petrify?
2) would a debuff reaper using Ephemeral Reap be better, since I can toss debuffs from the Masurao as well?

Ragnar Homsar
Apr 5, 2011

Komi-san won.


Cybernetic Crumb

Handgun Phonics posted:

1) did they change the ailment priority list with the new Petrify?

No, aside from petrify being assigned the highest priority.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

This knight was born to be THE BEST! Just like all the billions like him!


Handgun Phonics posted:

That sounds... kind of like a nightmare. Who thought Judgment was a good idea for a skill? For a passive prereq, even?

Two questions out of that-
1) did they change the ailment priority list with the new Petrify?
2) would a debuff reaper using Ephemeral Reap be better, since I can toss debuffs from the Masurao as well?

1. Petrify is the highest priority but I think the rest is the same.

2. Deathguards (debuff Harbingers) are fantastic but lack multi-target coverage and require you to remove debuffs to do your damage. Depending on the rest of your setup, that might not be advantageous. That said, even if you don't want to dispel your debuffs to deal damage, Deathguard debuffs are pretty drat strong so they're still a good party member. Just be aware of the cost you pay for using them to deal damage. Deathbringers are a bit more luck-based--if you can't land your ailments, you're pretty much dead weight--but have great multi-target damage and still bring a couple of useful debuffs. Both versions of Harbinger are great. I think I prefer Deathbringer overall, just because I prefer to leave my debuffs in place, but if you treat Ephemeral Reap as basically bonus damage when your debuffs are already about to expire it's awesome. (I briefly tried using other characters to set up more frequent Ephemeral Reaps but I found using their turns to apply debuffs instead of using their stronger attacks just wasn't worth it.)

Harrow fucked around with this message at Nov 8, 2017 around 19:26

werbear
Jan 14, 2017


Handgun Phonics posted:

2) would a debuff reaper using Ephemeral Reap be better, since I can toss debuffs from the Masurao as well?

Haven't used a Deathguard myself yet so take this advice with a grain of salt - but since the vast majority of your damage is physical you probably don't want to remove Armor Pierce. And you already have so much support Deathguard might not be too useful.

Judgement 3 doesn't activate that often I would just advice against putting more points into it than absolutely necessary if you also have a Necromancer. Wraiths and sleep just don't work together.
Another pro for Deathbringer is that panic disables evasion which is good news for your 1kat once leg bind falls off - more Helm Splitting for the critting Blade Master.

Deathbringer isn't a terrible fit for your party I just wanted to warn you beforehand.

Handgun Phonics
Jan 7, 2012


Harrow posted:

1. Petrify is the highest priority but I think the rest is the same.

2. Deathguards (debuff Harbingers) are fantastic but lack multi-target coverage and require you to remove debuffs to do your damage. Depending on the rest of your setup, that might not be advantageous. That said, even if you don't want to dispel your debuffs to deal damage, Deathguard debuffs are pretty drat strong so they're still a good party member. Just be aware of the cost you pay for using them to deal damage. Deathbringers are a bit more luck-based--if you can't land your ailments, you're pretty much dead weight--but have great multi-target damage and still bring a couple of useful debuffs. Both versions of Harbinger are great. I think I prefer Deathbringer overall, just because I prefer to leave my debuffs in place, but if you treat Ephemeral Reap as basically bonus damage when your debuffs are already about to expire it's awesome. (I briefly tried using other characters to set up more frequent Ephemeral Reaps but I found using their turns to apply debuffs instead of using their stronger attacks just wasn't worth it.)

If I went with Deathguard, would it be worth also investing in their Miasma Armor tree to pick up the heal or the shield? They look kind of neat, but I guess I also don't know what Harbinger heal power looks like.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

This knight was born to be THE BEST! Just like all the billions like him!


Handgun Phonics posted:

If I went with Deathguard, would it be worth also investing in their Miasma Armor tree to pick up the heal or the shield? They look kind of neat, but I guess I also don't know what Harbinger heal power looks like.

The heal is nothing special unless you lack other sources of direct healing, but even then just using a Soma or something is probably a better move. The ailment shield move is really cool, though. It relies a bit on foreknowledge or at least being reasonably able to predict when an ailment attack is coming, but if you can do that, blocking ailments is great.

All of their actual debuffs are awesome, too, and can really cut down on an enemy's ability to hurt you. Combined with any sort of defensive support like a Shaman (or a Dragoon if you like overkill) and you can make your team pretty remarkably safe with those debuffs. Use Ephemeral Reap on occasion but I wouldn't rely on it as a primary damage source just because it strips all debuffs. Use it every few turns or something, when it's not going to be a big deal to reapply debuffs.

As for other skills: I don't think it's worth investing much in Auto-Miasma with a Deathguard because they're a lot less reliant on Miasma Armor being up right away than Deathbringers are, but Endless Shroud can be useful because you're going to be using debuffs all the time anyway.

boho
Oct 4, 2011

on fire and loving it

I barely managed to kill the Stratum 5 boss with this party, levels 50-54:

Chain Fencer/Barrage/Deathguard
Herald/Poisoner

Since I struggled with the boss I'm worried about the party viability in Stratum 6. I'm sort of thinking of switching to:

Canoneer (or Blademaster?)/Barrage/Deathbringer
Herald/Falconeer

Anyone got thoughts on Stratum 6 party builds?

boho fucked around with this message at Nov 9, 2017 around 00:29

Blademaster_Aio
Jan 22, 2017



How are you so underlevelled?

I was 60+ when I beat the final boss.

I mean, 62, but still.

Rangpur
Dec 31, 2008



Ha, foolish Crystal Dragon! You fell for my cunning plan to let all of my party get wiped out except for the Dragoon, who was throwing up Decoy Turrets as part of a carefully orchestrated scheme and definitely not because I had nothing better to do while I waited to die!

(Seriously, I actually won doing that. It wouldn’t work if he wasn’t already on the last sliver of health, but I managed to hang on by my fingernails for 4 turns until the turret counterattacks finally whittled him down.)

theshim
May 1, 2012

You think you can defeat ME, Ephraimcopter?!?

You couldn't even beat Assassincopter!!!


Decoy Turrets are cool and good.

boho
Oct 4, 2011

on fire and loving it

Blademaster_Aio posted:

How are you so underlevelled?

I was 60+ when I beat the final boss.

I mean, 62, but still.

Ah, I wasn't aware I was so underleveled. Outside of a couple ambushes I kind of sailed through Stratum 5 til the boss.

Marogareh
Feb 23, 2011


Stratum 6 isn't too terrible if you've beaten the stratum 5 boss. I was 70 and got wiped twice on the final boss but stratum 6 feels like a cakewalk after that.

The White Dragon
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!


Fortuitous Bumble posted:

Mine works on my surface laptop when I blow the images up to 300% in my browser (so about 3.5 inches). It's weird that they're so finicky though since the point of QR codes is that they can read fast on a crappy camera. But it was worth the trouble to stop Conrad from popping up everywhere in my game

it's this, the output resolution on the codes is just lovely, but by the nature of QR codes, they scale up cleanly. if you enlarge it precisely, it's a lot easier for your camera to read.

food court bailiff
Oct 2, 2007

fast n furious foodstuff


Soiled Meat

I'm still only on 3F but really liking it - some of the little vignettes are great, and even though I'm pretty sure I'm overleveled right now from stalling on 1F, the battles are still super strategic, between the conditionals for drops and all the different ways you can maximize your resource efficiency. I have a feeling that once I have some more time I'm going to really get deep into this one.

Is the skill that gives a few extra inventory slots worth grabbing? The stat increase with it says it depends on level - does that mean it scales as the character grows, or does it mean that a character that takes it later will have an advantage on one that took it early?

Jimmy Hats
May 8, 2012

yeah that was pretty good



5th stratum boss was easy (Won on first try without looking anything up!), ending was incredibly brief, and the location of the 6th stratum is batshit crazy. What the heck!

food court bailiff posted:

Is the skill that gives a few extra inventory slots worth grabbing? The stat increase with it says it depends on level - does that mean it scales as the character grows, or does it mean that a character that takes it later will have an advantage on one that took it early?

I'm pretty sure it scales with level. I found it useful to take, as VIT = Defense. The extra slots are an added bonus but not necessary.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

This knight was born to be THE BEST! Just like all the billions like him!


food court bailiff posted:

Is the skill that gives a few extra inventory slots worth grabbing? The stat increase with it says it depends on level - does that mean it scales as the character grows, or does it mean that a character that takes it later will have an advantage on one that took it early?

I like the inventory slots skill because I like to take long dungeon runs, so I really appreciate being able to carry more.

The stat bonus grows as you level up no matter when you take the skill. It's basically intended that the stat boost is going to be relevant for the whole game without being overpowering early on, so it starts as a small boost and then grows as you gain levels so that it's still worth it.

spider wisdom
Nov 4, 2011

og data bandit


I will finish EO1 before 2018. It's been 5 years of off-and-on crawling, guys.

Thuryl
Mar 14, 2007

My postillion has been struck by lightning.


Harrow posted:

I like the inventory slots skill because I like to take long dungeon runs, so I really appreciate being able to carry more.

The stat bonus grows as you level up no matter when you take the skill. It's basically intended that the stat boost is going to be relevant for the whole game without being overpowering early on, so it starts as a small boost and then grows as you gain levels so that it's still worth it.

Specifically, all the stat-up skills go from a +3 bonus at level 1 to a +10 bonus at level 91, gaining a point every 13 levels in between. Having +10 to a stat you care about at the cost of a single skill point is pretty great value.

The White Dragon
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!


poo poo half the stat up skills apply to two stats, that's a great deal! cardio 4 lyfe

Ojetor
Aug 4, 2010

Return of the Sensei



Just started the 3rd Stratum and got master skills. I want to try the 4 katana spec but my masurao is already by far the party member that dies most often, and that's with heavy armor equipped. I have no clue how I'd keep her alive without any armor on. How are you supposed to make it work?

The White Dragon
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!


try using a human instead of a furry because they have higher natural vit and hp, see if that works better?

Ragnar Homsar
Apr 5, 2011

Komi-san won.


Cybernetic Crumb

Ojetor posted:

Just started the 3rd Stratum and got master skills. I want to try the 4 katana spec but my masurao is already by far the party member that dies most often, and that's with heavy armor equipped. I have no clue how I'd keep her alive without any armor on. How are you supposed to make it work?

Phantom Duelist Fencers, honestly.

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Stanfield
Feb 2, 2008

...Can we have the radio?


So I bought this after playing the demo for two days straight basically doing nothing but leveling characters, reclassing them, and leveling them again because I can't decide on a team.

I think I've finally settled on 1 Sword Mas/Deathguard/Cannon Dragoon - Healer Shaman/Poison Botanist. Any glaring faults? I'm still considering switching out the Dragoon for a Bind Pug or Dodge Fencer, or switching the Shaman for a Dog Rover. I don't need the best possible party just one that's fun and not too terrible. My only issue is that I would like to have one of each race.

I think this is the first game in the series where I've wanted to try literally every class.

Edit: FWIW I like playing more defensive parties than the 'kill the boss in three turns' kind.

Stanfield fucked around with this message at Nov 9, 2017 around 08:18

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