Is Trump actually worse than G W Bush? - Article

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > Is Trump actually worse than G W Bush? - Article

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

LET�S ALL TAKE A BREATH: TRUMP IS A JOKE, BUT BUSH WAS WORSE
Until he tweets us into war, the nepotistic antics of King Donald and clown prince Jared seem minor by comparison.

By T.A. Frank

quote:

In the world that half of America seemed to envision a year ago, the results of last night�s election�had there even been an election�would have been a Republican sweep, with The New York Times and every other media outlet leading the cheering and hailing the wisdom of the Dear Leader. As things unfolded in the real world, Democrats presided over a drubbing, and the Times devoted many of its pages, as usual, to the sins of Donald Trump. Perhaps this break in Democratic doomsaying will allow for the return of at least a little sobriety as we look back on Trump�s record, one year after his election win, and the freak-outs that have punctuated our lives ever since.

When Robert De Niro compared November 8, 2016, to the horror of September 11, 2001, he was expressing publicly what many liberals were saying privately. That an unfavorable election result, arrived at peacefully, could pack the emotional punch of mass murder suggests either genuine calamity or serious overreaction. We agree that Trump�s victory night marked a decisive break between one thing and something else, but we�re still debating fiercely over what those things were and are. Some people are celebrating, and others are reliving something near-traumatic.

I�ll disclose, in case it matters, that Trump�s election didn�t have the effect on me that it seemed to have on so many others. I was anxious and stunned, but not gutted�more akin to how you might feel when venturing into a place of war or imminent natural disaster. You�re frightened but also interested. (It helped that I never believed�and still don�t�that Trump would preside over mass deportations or the dismantling of democracy.) The next day, I dared feel some hope amid the apprehension. The Clinton Industrial complex, sclerotic and out of touch, was finally going to be dismantled. The Democratic Party might be jolted into a re-examination of itself. The liberal establishment might wake up from its hubris, both epistemological and cultural.

It didn�t turn out that way, of course. Rather than ask where it might have gone astray, much of the world of respectable opinion seemed to go mad. The Washington Post was running articles about Russian malfeasance that extended to the imaginary hacking of a power grid in Vermont. Clinton administration veteran Robert Reich was speculating that antifa rioters in Berkeley were colluding with Steve Bannon. Paul Krugman was calling the F.B.I. a beachhead of the far right. A long and winding thread of tweets about Russia from a St. Louis-based business consultant named Eric Garland got hailed by Mother Jones editor-in-chief Clara Jeffery as a �Federalist Paper� for our age. The New York Times ran Louise Mensch, the detector of Vladimir Putin in all things, on its op-ed page.

Trump has proved to be generally dreadful. He�s entirely unsuited to his post. Still, as people look back in grief, you would think that we�d seen the realization of Matthew Yglesias�s prediction that �angry mobs will beat and murder Jews and people of color with impunity.� At the very least, we might be farther along down the road mapped out in the New York Review of Books by author Masha Gessen, who warned that Trump might appoint a crony like Rudy Giuliani to the Supreme Court, that he might use the justice system to punish his political opponents, and that journalists would fall in line rather than forfeit access.

In real life, Trump nominated a respectable Supreme Court justice, the justice system is ensnaring Trump�s own people more than any of his political opponents, and journalists have practically incorporated �resist� into their job description. Gessen�s alarm over encroachments on constitutional norms seems especially surreal in light of who actually did take us down such a road. It was George W. Bush who appointed a crony to the Justice Department and tried to do the same for the Supreme Court. It was Bush who tried to bend the justice system to partisan goals. It was under Bush that many journalists fell in line in order to maintain access.

Similar thoughts came to mind when I read The New York Times�s Michelle Goldberg calling the election an �apocalypse� and offering a long list of Trumpian misdeeds, most of which seem either exaggerated (Russia links, political prosecutions) or primarily indecent (nepotism, vulgarity). Meanwhile, by this time in the White House of George W. Bush, security failures had led to thousands of American deaths, armies were in Afghanistan, and we�d passed a piece of legislation authorizing roving wiretaps, sneak-and-peek warrants, and indefinite detention of non-citizens. �Enhanced interrogation,� Iraq, and the compensation of Wall Street�s worst actors for their losses was still to come. The nepotistic antics of King Donald and clown prince Jared seem minor by comparison.

Certainly, no president has ever grown into the job less than Donald Trump. He seems oblivious to his own power, to propriety, to the ceremonies of statecraft. Yet, if we survive, the cultural degradation is unlikely to endure much beyond him. Even people who hate Trump seem to give him a pass that they wouldn�t grant anyone else, as one would an itinerant 2-year-old at a church wedding. They�we�know he�s unequal to demands of the moment. He is the first president in U.S. history with zero government experience, civilian or military. He is the patron saint of anyone who has ever yelled at the television and said, �I could fix it if these clowns just put me in charge.� Then�poof. He�s in charge. Unfortunately, he remains himself, and that self is a 71-year-old man-child with decreasing impulse control.

Much of our current realignment remains confusing, but immigration still seems to be the issue that promises to reshape our politics most. A hard-line position doesn�t win every primary on the right, nor does the border hawk win every election. (On the contrary, Democrats had a great night last night.) But it works often enough that Republicans are changing their rhetoric accordingly. It also remains the issue that most likely put Trump over the top. Among Americans who are sympathetic to Trump�s basic line on immigration�that it should be skills-based, with strict border control�I have found people with all sorts of political views, from left to right (albeit more of the latter, obviously). But I have yet to find one among them who was shocked over Trump�s victory. Americans felt more strongly about controlling the border than their elected officials seemed to believe.

The biggest risk of Trump remains what it was on day one, that he�ll get us into another war. Launching into brinkmanship against North Korea�out of proportion to the threat posed by its regime�has been pointless and disastrous. The news isn�t much better from the Middle East, as Trump looks for ways to blow up the nuclear deal with Iran and aligns himself ever more with Saudi Arabia. Why Trump, who once mocked Saudi lobbying of U.S. politicians, should have reversed course so completely is unclear. Who has what on whom? We can only speculate.

If we do avoid the hell of Trump triggering an armed conflict with a foreign power, then we�ll turn to avoiding one among ourselves, as red and blue sort into increasingly homogeneous enclaves. In the late 1990s, with a booming economy and lone superpower status, we could fool ourselves into thinking only trivialities divided us. It was almost true, too. But not anymore. Today, the hatreds are sharper, and the country feels infirm, like William Blake�s sick rose eaten by the invisible worm. The shooting by a malevolent lunatic of 26 congregants in a church this week, amid a drumbeat of similar atrocities, has heightened the sense of unraveling. Then we fight over the tragedy. We cannot even grieve with one another without making it about our divides.

Trump has inflamed the war between Americans, but he didn�t start it, and his departure won�t end it. That task falls to others. For every voice suggesting that maybe we should listen to, say, the grievances of African-Americans or those of the Trump-voting working class, there seem to be two voices from the right or left decrying any form of outreach as appeasement or moral idiocy. Millions of Americans are determined to see themselves as the weaker party, the victims of tyrants, and under such conditions outreach becomes impossible. It�s a toxic form of self-pity that rules out empathy or compromise, the things that make society and self-government possible. Resolving to hate each other less�to make peaceful resolution, rather than subjugation, the aim�might seem naively simple in the age of Trump. But we�re surely doomed if we don�t try.

I find myself actually agreeing with this, but is it actually because W was "worse" or just that his administration was more competent to be corrupt and violent?

I think Trump would have started a war by now if he could pay attention to anything or understood how he could directly profit from it.

# ? Nov 9, 2017 05:33

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# ? Apr 26, 2024 23:29

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

we've still got like 3 years left, give Trump a chance

# ? Nov 9, 2017 05:34

Zeroisanumber: Oct 23, 2010; Nap Ghost

Bush is worse, so far. Iraq was a tremendous gently caress-up.

# ? Nov 9, 2017 05:42

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

how is this even an argument

bush surrounded himself with competent people with goals and the will to accomplish those goals

trump is a loving godsend, he'll be the least-effective republican president since ford, possibly hoover

# ? Nov 9, 2017 05:47

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

imagine if bush hadn't waited until his second term to push social security privatization or a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage

# ? Nov 9, 2017 05:48

ScrubLeague: Feb 11, 2007; Nap Ghost

no he's not because he hasn't been able to do anything without literally pissing all over his own face yet.

once he decides to Go For It, he probably will end up being worse than dubs. not there by a long shot though.

# ? Nov 9, 2017 05:49

MaxxBot: Oct 6, 2003; you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!

Jeb!'s bro kept us safe!

# ? Nov 9, 2017 05:51

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

Aliquid posted:

how is this even an argument

bush surrounded himself with competent people with goals and the will to accomplish those goals

trump is a loving godsend, he'll be the least-effective republican president since ford, possibly hoover

I just think it's weird that GW is recovering some of his legacy by hating trump but frankly I don't care if he does or not, he sucks poo poo, he killed hundreds of thousands of people, that blood is on his hands.

# ? Nov 9, 2017 06:04

MaxxBot: Oct 6, 2003; you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!

makes u think

https://twitter.com/jebbush/status/644542458735525888?lang=en

# ? Nov 9, 2017 06:08

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

outside of starting a war trump is the ideal republican president, too incompetent to achieve any of their odious goals.

that said if he does start a war, which is likely imo, it will probably be even more bloodthirsty and incompetent than iraq tbh

# ? Nov 9, 2017 06:11

ScrubLeague: Feb 11, 2007; Nap Ghost

the best part is that bush's oil profits from murdering afghan and iraqi youth weren't even bush's oil profits, they were bush's buddies' oil profits

# ? Nov 9, 2017 06:14

Baku: Aug 20, 2005; by Fluffdaddy

rudatron posted:

we've still got like 3 years left, give Trump a chance

Yeah, until at least the end of Trump's term this comparison is asinine.

I respect any effort to keep liberals from lionizing George W Bush, but I also think it's counterproductive and kind of dumb to be like "hey calm down let's not worry about this Trump guy until the worst case scenarios come true".

# ? Nov 9, 2017 06:17

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

wizard on a water slide posted:

Yeah, until at least the end of Trump's term this comparison is asinine.

I respect any effort to keep liberals from lionizing George W Bush, but I also think it's counterproductive and kind of dumb to be like "hey calm down let's not worry about this Trump guy until the worst case scenarios come true".

Yeah I just think it's an important check on nostalgia, as a phenomenon, which is making us think GWBush "wasn't that bad" (he was).

# ? Nov 9, 2017 07:13

Mayor Dave: Feb 20, 2009; Bernie the Snow Clown

trump

# ? Nov 9, 2017 07:15

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

too early to tell, at this stage in the gwb presidency iraq havn't happened yet

# ? Nov 9, 2017 07:15

logikv9: Mar 5, 2009; Ham Wrangler

Sheng-Ji Yang posted:

outside of starting a war trump is the ideal republican president, too incompetent to achieve any of their odious goals.

that said if he does start a war, which is likely imo, it will probably be even more bloodthirsty and incompetent than iraq tbh

dying for trump's hotel profits

# ? Nov 9, 2017 07:26

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

rudatron posted:

we've still got like 37 years left, give Trump a chance

I mean unless you can see people getting their poo poo together and putting forward an electable opposition candidate.

No not Hillary. I said electable. Anyone who loses to Trump of all people isn't.

# ? Nov 9, 2017 11:10

Salacious Spy: May 29, 2010; Well the word got around they said this kid is insane, man
Banged in the mouth and now he's got AIDS, man

# ? Nov 9, 2017 18:51

Salacious Spy: May 29, 2010; Well the word got around they said this kid is insane, man
Banged in the mouth and now he's got AIDS, man

I'm glad just about every news source has devolved into rabid political editorials and tabloid headlines. I want to be the guy getting paid to do lame sketches of Trump's dumb monkey face

ahahahaha GENIUS!!! :master:

# ? Nov 9, 2017 18:57

tapine: Sep 3, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

Pick posted:

I just think it's weird that GW is recovering some of his legacy by hating trump but frankly I don't care if he does or not, he sucks poo poo, he killed hundreds of thousands of people, that blood is on his hands.

you can say million+, you don't have to stop at hundreds of thousands

# ? Nov 9, 2017 19:01

Salacious Spy: May 29, 2010; Well the word got around they said this kid is insane, man
Banged in the mouth and now he's got AIDS, man

it's actually v good that these asinine articles are dominating modern media because, although they ultimately serve no purpose other than generating ad revenue, it's possible some Trump voter somewhere will rage-read an article about Trump's parallels with Hitler and the scales will fall from their eyes

# ? Nov 9, 2017 19:01

Pick: Jul 19, 2009; Nap Ghost

tapine posted:

you can say million+, you don't have to stop at hundreds of thousands

it was a conservative estimate

# ? Nov 9, 2017 23:12

Frijolero: Jan 24, 2009; by Nyc_Tattoo

Told my coworkers that W. would be the first person in my guillotines and one person literally gasped lol

# ? Nov 9, 2017 23:16

Lastgirl: Sep 7, 1997; Good Morning!
Sunday Morning!

Sheng-Ji Yang posted:

outside of starting a war trump is the ideal republican president, too incompetent to achieve any of their odious goals.

that said if he does start a war, which is likely imo, it will probably be even more bloodthirsty and incompetent than iraq tbh

iran is a fortress

or a glassed NK

hmm

# ? Nov 9, 2017 23:24

Feldegast42: Oct 29, 2011; COMMENCE THE RITE OF SHITPOSTING

Trump is really bad and just as evil as Dubya and co but his incompetence (and GOP incompetence) is our sole saving grace. If they were just a bit better at their jobs we would have:

- Mass Deportation (ICE is already trying but luckily they are pretty incompetent, if cruel), putting 10+ million immigrants at risk
- Obamacare repealed, putting 30+ million people at risk of dying without medical insurance / care
- War with North Korea, putting 40+ million (very conservative estimate) people at risk of nuclear incineration
- Tax cuts passed, tying the electoral system even tighter to the oligarchs, clamping down on democracy
- Even tighter election restrictions / voter suppression (which is still very possible), creating a permanent apartheid state-like GOP majority

Not to mention if RGB bites it we are probably going to lose abortion access and the rest of the Civil Rights Act / Voting Rights Act, at the very minimum.

The situation is still extremely dangerous and people shouldn't underestimate it, even if things look more hopeful than a year ago.

Oh and actions against climate change have also been gutted which is probably going to kill millions down the road just by itself.

Feldegast42 has issued a correction as of 00:10 on Nov 10, 2017

# ? Nov 10, 2017 00:08

Yossarian-22: Oct 26, 2014

Watch trump start a loving war

# ? Nov 10, 2017 00:32

Calibanibal: Aug 25, 2015

Frijolero posted:

Told my coworkers that W. would be the first person in my guillotines and one person literally gasped lol

well you know who #2 needs to be now

# ? Nov 10, 2017 00:33

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

Typo posted:

too early to tell, at this stage in the gwb presidency iraq havn't happened yet

at this stage in the obama presidency honduras got couped

# ? Nov 10, 2017 00:47

Segata Sanshiro: Sep 10, 2011; we can live for nothing
baby i don't care

lose me like the ocean
feel the motion

lol yeah the actions of W and his administration killed literally millions

trump's body count is not nearly as high...................for now

which is why it's so frustrating to see W rehabilitated by liberals just bc he said trump is a dumb poopoo head or whatever

# ? Nov 10, 2017 01:11

get that OUT of my face: Feb 10, 2007

the national atmosphere under bush for three or four years after 9/11 was much scarier than it is at any point under trump. sure, bush made a better first speech after 9/11 than trump did after the halloween truck rampage, but not long after that it was all about stuff like "you're with us or with the terrorists," people openly questioning whether we should make jokes, color-coded terror levels, and buying duct tape to protect us from a dirty bomb. i've never felt the country act so terrified before or since

oh god i seriously responded to a pick thread, what even is life

# ? Nov 10, 2017 08:22

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

get that OUT of my face posted:

the national atmosphere under bush for three or four years after 9/11 was much scarier than it is at any point under trump

Yeah, poo poo was nuts. I went through a pretty hard libertarian phase as a teenager in response to all this insane poo poo. Honestly though, a deep distrust of American institutions was a pretty reasonable response to ~~the Bush administration~~ American institutions.

# ? Nov 10, 2017 08:24

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

The sheer amount of opposite-of-reality bullshit coming out of the administration constantly was bizarre. People act like Trump invented that, but I remember it. Even SNL joked about it, and there's a great bit on 30 Rock with a member of the administration looking at a leaking ceiling and saying "it's not leaking, I can show you the study."

# ? Nov 10, 2017 08:26

MaxxBot: Oct 6, 2003; you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!

Feranon posted:

lol yeah the actions of W and his administration killed literally millions

trump's body count is not nearly as high...................for now

which is why it's so frustrating to see W rehabilitated by liberals just bc he said trump is a dumb poopoo head or whatever

There was an episode of Pod Save The World recently where a Bush neocon came on with the Pod Save folks (ex-Obama people) and talked about how fundamentally they have the same view of the world and that sealed the deal on my complete and utter hate of liberal ideology.

# ? Nov 10, 2017 08:26

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

All the stuff Trump has done with staffing departments with people who hate those departments, the anti-science poo poo, etc., those are all Bush strategies. I would argue strongly that Trump's election is a direct result of the Bush years (which are a result of the Reagan years, which are a result of Nixon. It all goes back to Nixon.)

# ? Nov 10, 2017 08:28

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

Remember the Valerie Plame scandal? Try to explain that to someone sometime. It sounds made up. It's nuts. That wasn't even in the top 10 worst things they did.

# ? Nov 10, 2017 08:35

get that OUT of my face: Feb 10, 2007

FactsAreUseless posted:

All the stuff Trump has done with staffing departments with people who hate those departments, the anti-science poo poo, etc., those are all Bush strategies.

those were reagan strategies first. they tried to classify ketchup as a vegetable

at least nixon created the epa and conceded that keynesian economics was here to stay, even though he ended up being wrong about the latter

# ? Nov 10, 2017 08:38

Yossarian-22: Oct 26, 2014

get that OUT of my face posted:

those were reagan strategies first. they tried to classify ketchup as a vegetable

at least nixon created the epa and conceded that keynesian economics was here to stay, even though he ended up being wrong about the latter

nixon started the dogwhistling/race-baiting/"silent majority" part of the gop

# ? Nov 10, 2017 08:41

get that OUT of my face: Feb 10, 2007

Yossarian-22 posted:

nixon started the dogwhistling/race-baiting/"silent majority" part of the gop

yeah no argument there. reagan is when republicans went full-on moronic as a policy, though

people like to say his positions would be out of place in today's GOP, but the entire point of the reagan revolution was to be as far to the right as the contemporary political system allowed him to be, with more room for an even more rightward shift in the future (which is exactly what happened). ronnie would be a loyal trump supporter if he were alive and not demented today

get that OUT of my face has issued a correction as of 09:14 on Nov 10, 2017

# ? Nov 10, 2017 09:12

FactsAreUseless: Feb 16, 2011

get that OUT of my face posted:

those were reagan strategies first. they tried to classify ketchup as a vegetable

at least nixon created the epa and conceded that keynesian economics was here to stay, even though he ended up being wrong about the latter

Nixon was a pile of poo poo. He sabotaged Vietnam peace talks and oversaw secret bombings of Cambodia. He did everything he could to tear down the American government to claw at power.

# ? Nov 10, 2017 09:14

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# ? Apr 26, 2024 23:29

get that OUT of my face: Feb 10, 2007

FactsAreUseless posted:

Nixon was a pile of poo poo. He sabotaged Vietnam peace talks and oversaw secret bombings of Cambodia. He did everything he could to tear down the American government to claw at power.

i agree with all of this and more about nixon. trump is every bit as paranoid as he was

sort of like reagan, he was as far to the right as the system allowed

# ? Nov 10, 2017 09:16

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