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The harsh truth of the world is that there were, in fact, systems of "slavery" throughout history that were notably more favorable to the slave class than how free citizens have been treated by various societies. Dorian evoking that mindset in dialogue is honestly pretty solid writing imo, and one of the instances of DA actually having some complexity in their worldbuilding. That being said, it's seriously debatable whether the form of slavery that the Tevinter Imperium practices would actually count as this type, and in fact a lot of our experiences throughout the three games could refute that claim. And that's because the DA world is coming at it from the both angles, the antiquated "this is basically a servant caste" angle and the modern "slavery is an evil practice and slavemasters can and will treat their slaves like chattel" angle. But you couldn't just treat slaves like chattel...nominally-speaking, obviously. Like, these were the people who had the task of raising your children and protecting you from actual criminals. You're not gonna use them for blood sacrifice of all things (except sometimes when you did, but the cultures that did that tend to draw their sacrifices from a wide class of peoples, and it wasn't a common thing). More importantly, the sorts of societies that the game is trying to compare Tevinter slavery to did end up enacting laws to protect slaves from mistreatment, because even ancient Rome of all places still didn't allow you to just kill a slave out of the blue, and even mistreating them could be cause for legal intervention. As far as I can tell, there's literally no laws protecting Tevinter slaves from...anything?...other than the one where if they have magic they can be free? Which seems like this world's version of evoking the idea that slaves in antiquity can and did buy their way to freedom...except this is a silly comparison because being a mage is an inborn thing completely out of anyone's control. And then add to that the fact that our heroic player characters are the ones usually having to deal with the consequences of this system so it's entirely appropriate that most peoples' gut reactions to Dorian saying some of our slaves don't have it that bad is just "Wow. Did you really just go there?"
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Jun 2, 2020 03:16
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KittyEmpress posted:I actually like most of the characters in this game. Sera's cool when she's hanging out with her best friend Blackwall. Otherwise she sucks. Also I like how the banter reveals that Cassandra doesn't just love Swords and Shields but is an enormous fan of all of Varric's books. The dynamic they have going is probably my favorite relationship in the series
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Jun 2, 2020 03:23
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BrianWilly posted:But you couldn't just treat slaves like chattel...nominally-speaking, obviously. Like, these were the people who had the task of raising your children and protecting you from actual criminals. They absolutely could and did. The women raising their children got raped. Repeatedly.
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Jun 2, 2020 03:35
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Skippy McPants posted:That conversation, and argument, is ripped directly from the lips of every slave owner in history. "Slaves are better off than the working poor because I—their master—must take good care of them so they can profit me!" It's an argument as common as it is patently bullshit. I read this whole bit as Dorian criticising the feudal system rather than defending slavery as such. More 'peasants are de facto slaves so don't be assuming that moral high ground so quickly - both systems are awful, Tevinter just doesn't lie to itself', less 'actually slavery is pretty cool'. But that might just be my dumb commie rear end projecting.
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Jun 2, 2020 04:01
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FoolyCharged posted:They absolutely could and did. Is that a generalized feature of slavery systems across continents and millennia? Not my area of expertise at all, so maybe it is a commonality, but OP seemed to suggest that there were systems where the slaves were treated better than black people in the US were.
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Jun 2, 2020 04:12
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FoolyCharged posted:They absolutely could and did. My point was that -- and this is admittedly broad because we're talking about hundreds of different societal standards across hundreds of different years -- many of those societies were definitely invested in protecting their slaves, even if it's merely a pretense for protecting their property. How seriously those laws were taken and how often they were abused is a whole issue, but you couldn't just do anything to a slave any more than you could just do anything to another random person walking down the street.
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Jun 2, 2020 04:30
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ThomasPaine posted:I read this whole bit as Dorian criticising the feudal system rather than defending slavery as such. More 'peasants are de facto slaves so don't be assuming that moral high ground so quickly - both systems are awful, Tevinter just doesn't lie to itself', less 'actually slavery is pretty cool'. But that might just be my dumb commie rear end projecting. Yeah that's definitely part of it. He multiple times when dealing with criticism of Tevinter goes 'And X alternative is better!? At least we are open about being lovely'
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Jun 2, 2020 04:49
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Dorian feels like when you're criticizing Tevinter you're criticizing him specifically since hes tevinter and especially since he loves his home so he tends to get defensive or rationalize the lovely aspects of it. Its an extremely normal thing for a person to do and one of the things that makes him one of the best written characters in the game imo.
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Jun 2, 2020 04:55
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Grundulum posted:Is that a generalized feature of slavery systems across continents and millennia? Not my area of expertise at all, so maybe it is a commonality, but OP seemed to suggest that there were systems where the slaves were treated better than black people in the US were. Hi historian here, different forms of slavery have existed at different times. They were all extremely bad and slaves were always largely at the mercy of their owners who could certainly get away with a lot, but how much has changed a lot depending on the system. That said, there's a major major difference between different systems. US chattel slavery was radically different to the kind of slavery that, for example, was practiced by the Romans, because it was a huge industry that was also racialised - blacks weren't just enslaved people, they were considered essentially a different, inferior species who rightly should be subservient to the white population. Being black and being a slave essentially came to mean the same thing, and this allowed people to justify the enslavement of babies born to slave mothers etc, and led to even free blacks experiencing just insane discrimination and abuse that largely went ignored. So in that totally dehumanised context slave owners could (and did) rape and murder and torture at their leisure, but this wasn't necessarily seen as much of an issue because slaves themselves were seen as little more than animals. As an aside its no loving wonder the states is the cesspit it is now, growing out of that history. The big difference compared to most historical systems of slavery is, essentially, that to the Romans etc a slave was still a human being. They were owned by someone, but mutual slave taking after battles etc was essentially a fact of life in the period, and the people taken were understood to have lost their freedom but they weren't considered a different species, they were just a person who had gotten unlucky. Race as it was understood in the US context wasn't really a thing either. This lack of dehumanisation is a big deal, and meant that generally speaking they weren't abused to anything like the same level as their African equivalents hundreds of years later. It's maybe better to see classical slavery more as a form of indentured servitude - obviously, abuses will have happened, but probably more similarly to the kind of abuses that happened to employed domestic staff in the 18th/19th C. Slaves absolutely did function as important servants to wealthy families and could gain considerable respect and influence in the family and even in the wider community. Additionally, a slave in Rome could buy their freedom or just be released from service, and this did happen - there are some stories of slaves being released after becoming good friends with their masters for example, which sounds bizarre to modern ears. And, importantly, once freed they were not seen as lesser than their equivalent who had never been a slave. There are examples of former slaves going on to become independently powerful and wealthy after becoming free, which is absolutely not something that could happen in the USA. None of that is to at all justify classical slavery, but it absolutely was a very different kettle of fish to transatlantic chattel slavery, and of course that's going to be different to Egyptian era slavery etc etc etc. While they were all bad I'd absolutely argue that US slavery was by far the most awful system by a hell of a margin. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Jun 2, 2020 |
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Jun 2, 2020 04:56
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The problem with Tevinter is the writers seem to be aware that "slavery" and "chattel slavery" are two very different things, but want to ignore it anyway. Well you see in our society slave is just a thing most people are, just going about life perfectly normal like anywhere else in the world. But also we use slaves as batteries to fuel our hyper evil magic.
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Jun 2, 2020 05:02
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ThomasPaine posted:I read this whole bit as Dorian criticising the feudal system rather than defending slavery as such. More 'peasants are de facto slaves so don't be assuming that moral high ground so quickly - both systems are awful, Tevinter just doesn't lie to itself', less 'actually slavery is pretty cool'. But that might just be my dumb commie rear end projecting. He's doing exactly that, and it's 100% bullshit. Being poor is not the same, at all, as being a chattel slave. He's drawing false equivalence so he doesn't have to look too hard at his own complicity. ThomasPaine posted:None of that is to at all justify classical slavery, but it absolutely was a very different kettle of fish to transatlantic chattel slavery, and of course that's going to be different to Egyptian era slavery etc etc etc. While they were all bad I'd absolutely argue that US slavery was by far the most awful system by a hell of a margin. The colonial slavery in places like Haiti were probably worse, but it's a pretty minor distinction at that point. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Jun 2, 2020 |
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Jun 2, 2020 05:07
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ThomasPaine posted:Hi historian here, Thanks for this. Is there a book on the topic accessible to lay audiences?
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Jun 2, 2020 05:15
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KittyEmpress posted:The only companions I pointedly don't like are Vivienne and Sera, Vivienne is wrong about everything but she has the best banter, I like taking her everywhere. Dorian and (especially) Iron Bull are the ones I find most difficult to take along. Even their banter is mostly about how cool they think they are.
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Jun 2, 2020 07:10
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Amusingly there were later Roman laws against releasing TOO many slaves at once, as manumission became rather fashionable. As well a big reason for the difference in how slaves were treated is availability. Africa was far easier for Europeans to just enter and exploit than Rome's neighbors. (After a period of time.) Once Rome stopped expanding getting slaves became harder, and the relative scarcity meant they were more valuable. In terms of DA, if the writers know this, then slaves in Tevintir should be a very rare thing, mostly state owned or by the super rich. They constantly have slavers out in the south, but capturing a tribe of elves every now and then isn't going to get you many slaves compared to sacking a whole city. Eimi fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Jun 2, 2020 |
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Jun 2, 2020 07:32
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Whatever your take on Dorian is you should respect writers who decided to insert some actual alien morality in their world - and not make those who hold it obviously evil. Dorian is a likeable guy and he's fine with slavery. He considers himself to be a moral person, he's very much against blood magic, so it's not like he just an egocentric amoral character like Morrigan. It's refreshing. Like you know when you watch a movie about crusades (say, Kingdom of Heavens) and all the good characters are not into all that fanatical faith thing, they're crusading for some vague humanist ideas. This is what many fantasy characters remind me of. They live in a completely different fantasy world but when they have a weird religion then it's basically Christianity with more pronounced Saints serving as gods providing thematic buffs. There's usually some form of feudalism but it's usually presented more like a presidential republic with people caring more about their country rather than king. DA suffers from it too: half of Qunari you talk to are extremely adapted to your character way of thinking (and thus your own) and talk about their weird customs with a wink. Oh, we take children from parents and raise them in special camps, sounds crazy but it's not so bad. Dorian is not like that, he feels like a character from a very different culture who might be wrong. But it evades your usual trope of every moral intelligent character from any world holding modern Western European values.
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Jun 2, 2020 09:31
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:...someone way earlier off-handedly mentioned that Artificer Archer has the best DPS in the game with the right build. Artificer eventually lets you spam abilities non-stop, particularly if you get multi-hit abilities. So 4 skills: Hook & Tackle (w/ It Beats Walking) + Leaping shot + Looked Like it Hurt + Opportunity Knocks, will let you turn everything into a pincushion several times over. Hook in, hit Leaping Shot (aiming properly so every arrow hits the opponent, each arrow in leaping shot procs the stamina recovery and cooldown reduction), repeat. You can mix in things like Spike Trap or Elemental Mines when you're up close as well before hitting Leaping Shot. If you mix that with Hail of Arrows you can kill the Highland Ravager dragon on Nightmare in seconds (may cause your game to glitch out from the sheer number of arrows).
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Jun 2, 2020 09:33
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I am now doing an achievement hunt playthrough of DAI. I also never played as a dwarf, so I am trying that too. The dwarf rogue is connected to the mafia which makes for a few funny dialogue lines but not much beyond that. I think most dialogue options saying "but I'm not human" are the same for all non-human races. That achievement about getting to Skyhold with level 5 or less is a bitch. I thought I got it but all the XP you get for actually getting to Skyhold counts. I guess the right tactic for getting there is gaining most of the influence from camps and agents and such. And running away from most enemies. Most of those challenges don't interfere with each other. So I got the one that doubles the negative reaction of all companions, the goal is to get to the ancient elven fortress with all the companions still in the party. Not sure if it's better to rush this one or will I get net positive opinion if I'm completionist. Obviously I'd better do all of those personal quest. Nothing says "complex and challenging roleplaying" like collecting all the books Viviene asks for. Also, I am now quite puzzled about the difficulty. I play on Normal but it feels like the combat doesn't really differ from Nightmare I've played on previously. It might be that I was a higher level all the time previously. But it feels pretty challenging as it is now. I've mixed up some challenges and played with potions turned off (for the challenge you need to do Redcliff mages quest with stashes turned off) but I still feel like the difficulty is strangely balanced. Enemies are still beefy. The challenge that looks like it would spice up the game - the one that gives enemies random buffs - turns the game into a slog cause some of those buffs are regenerating shields. Little challenge, a lot of staring at the screen.
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Jun 2, 2020 09:47
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ThomasPaine posted:Hi historian here, different forms of slavery have existed at different times. They were all extremely bad and slaves were always largely at the mercy of their owners who could certainly get away with a lot, but how much has changed a lot depending on the system. I had classes in Roman law when I was a student and it's wild how different Roman laws actually were compared to what people think Rome was like. Like whole theories have been spun around the idea that Roman men would kiss their women to see if they had been drinking wine and kill them in rage if they had, and poo poo like that, on the premise that women were not citizens and thus the man could rule over her life or death. The main thing was that, originally, citizenship was considered like being military in the USA now. You had to have done your civic duties of fighting in wars before you could have a say in government. Civil courts were like military tribunals to settle disputes between soldiers. Specific rules were enacted with regards to testaments, divorces, wills, spoils of war etc. to take into account the specific situation of being in a campaign every so often against Italic and Etruscan peoples. Even after your military service, these perks would remain (although voting and property law are of course more important perks than the 10% Walmart discounts American soldiers are incentivized with today, but America does inch in that direction with free higher education that recruiters use to lure high schoolers). In that context, slaves were a mix of conquered peoples who didn't have any say in government for obvious reasons, but also merely "civilians" who never went to war and thus didn't have access to citizenship's privileges. There was a large dichotomy between rules that applied for "citizens" before the military tribunals/civil courts, and other courts of law (eg for trade disputes or criminal law) where slaves could have access to. You couldn't just kill or injure slaves because they were still considered human beings with rights and protected under law, but they didn't have civil rights like voting. But many of the rules and laws for non-citizens were based on customs or case law which could change depending on your city/province, rather than being based a civil code of law like citizenship. These citizenship rights were also prominently displayed on the forum Romanum in the twelve tables, which is why they are so famous today and why they eventually became the cornerstone of Roman law, rather than the more varied other fields of law that were often not written (or at least not recorded with as much care as the citizenship rights). After a while, changing circumstances like the unification of Italy meant that not every young man would go to war any more. Citizenship became something inherited through your father, or eventually you could buy it, and slaves could always still join the legions and earn their citizenship the old-fashioned way. Freemen and citizens would sell their citizenship or freedom to become a slave for a large plantation owner because, in Roman times, it was more or less the equivalent of a veyr strict employment contract. For legal reasons, the administraiton of eg Egypt was left to slaves of the imperial household who probably never even saw the emperor but because they were managing his estates they were legally considered to be his slaves much like civil servants today are considered to be the state's employees, and every soldier in Belgium today is theoretically under direct control of the King even if they have never met him in person. And Rome never actually abolished institutions, it just reused them in ways not originally intended. That is why we found stelae in Spain implying women have access to civil courts despite never having been soldiers, and ladies of the house in Spain being called "pater familias" even though they were not fathers because this was a legal status rather than a description of somebody being a father, and we get some rich bureaucrat in Egypt being called a "slave" despite not really working all that hard compared to free citizens, and those kind of oddities that do not translate very well. The word "slave" carries massive connotations today and I wonder if, 2000 years from now, describing people working in 2020 as "Amazon Employees" will have audiences reeling in horror when a fictional character attempts to defend the concept of employment contracts. "You mean Jeff Bezos could literally order people to work themselves to death or they wouldn't have access to hospitals any more? How could anyone defend such a system?" It's hard for people living within a system to conceive of an alternative. Especially in the case of Tevinter, which is based on Rome I can totally see how Dorian would defend such a system and maybe how experiences of people in Thedas are distorted due to propaganda or due to slavery being an illegal black market in their own realms. But then the writers can't make up their mind and I guess Tevinter mages use blood magic to kill dozens of slaves to make a cup of wine levitate or something. I can't recall offhand if Dorian ever mentions something about these stories being exaggerated or frowned upon in Tevinter society or whether it was a "we just have to accept the bad apples with the good system" kind of deal. Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Jun 2, 2020 |
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Jun 2, 2020 10:16
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Deltasquid posted:But then the writers can't make up their mind and I guess Tevinter mages use blood magic to kill dozens of slaves to make a cup of wine levitate or something. I can't recall offhand if Dorian ever mentions something about these stories being exaggerated or frowned upon in Tevinter society or whether it was a "we just have to accept the bad apples with the good system" kind of deal. Dorian says that officially no one uses blood magic in Tevinter. From time to time they arrest someone for using dark arts but he implies it's rather a part of political intrigue. He and many other mages believe that blood magic is evil but most magisters do it behind closed doors.
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Jun 2, 2020 10:31
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I get the feeling that a lot of what people in the games say about Tevinter is exaggerated. Not that they don't have slaves, etc, but how they constantly use them in blood magic rituals and such. That's just not sustainable. It's Otherization, maybe there's a better word for it, I'm not an expert.
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Jun 2, 2020 16:35
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Skippy McPants posted:He's doing exactly that, and it's 100% bullshit. Being poor is not the same, at all, as being a chattel slave. He's drawing false equivalence so he doesn't have to look too hard at his own complicity. Haiti makes me sad  As far as DA is concerned though, I agree with other posters that Bioware have clearly just conflated a whole bunch of different forms of slavery so Tevinter can be as brutal or as maligned as they need it to be in any given situation. They do a similar thing when they're talking about the Qun. The way I've read it is that Old Tevinter was far more 'chattel slavery of elves, the streets run with blood from all the crazy magic', whereas at the time of the games it has somehow transitioned into more a Roman system, with some of the old ways still persisting amongst behind closed doors amongst conservative magisters. And obviously, a lot of the reputation of Tevinter in the rest of Thedas is less than stellar, often for good reasons, but also often inaccurate. Given DA4 is almost certainly going to be set there, it's a really cool opportunity for Bioware to do some pretty cool stuff as they flesh out how it all works in practice, and how society functions by comparison to the de facto feudal southern states, and what that says about the nature of exploitation etc etc. With the major conflict with the Qun too - a level of committed ideological war we've not yet seen in the series - this all goes double, especially if we get to explore some functional, relatively stable Qunari settlements. And that's before even getting into the whole Solas/Fade plot that's probably going to be central. I'd be genuinely hyped to see what they do with it if I hadn't played Andromeda, lol.
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Jun 2, 2020 18:43
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:I get the feeling that a lot of what people in the games say about Tevinter is exaggerated. Not that they don't have slaves, etc, but how they constantly use them in blood magic rituals and such. That's just not sustainable. It's Otherization, maybe there's a better word for it, I'm not an expert. I mean we as the players have met a number of Tevinter blood mages but also they seem to have all hosed off away from Tevinter so idk what to make of that
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Jun 2, 2020 20:02
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:I get the feeling that a lot of what people in the games say about Tevinter is exaggerated. Not that they don't have slaves, etc, but how they constantly use them in blood magic rituals and such. That's just not sustainable. It's Otherization, maybe there's a better word for it, I'm not an expert. Aztecs sacrificed like 20,000 people a year. 80% of slaves died on the way to America. Its perhaps not sustainable for eternity, but they could do this for a looooong time.
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Jun 3, 2020 02:58
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Okay Artificer Archer rules. I went from staying on the edge of battle in a high place with auto attack while the AI does all the actual fighting to every single battle being MAXIMUM CHAOS
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Jun 3, 2020 05:45
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Alistair really appears to be a Love Him or Hate him type. When I compared him to Eder in Pillars of Eternity, the responses ranged from "sure but I hate Alistair" to "sure but Eder is much better written." I guess it's the curse of the fact Alistair was written to be intensely likable. If you are put off by his charm, you will hate him with a passion. But he's a good lad and I love him. Anyone who would side with Anora over him and have him executed is a monster. I used to like Anora, too. Then she was up for killing Alistair five seconds after agreeing to marry him. That's straight up psychopath poo poo.
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Jun 3, 2020 11:52
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NikkolasKing posted:Alistair really appears to be a Love Him or Hate him type. When I compared him to Eder in Pillars of Eternity, the responses ranged from "sure but I hate Alistair" to "sure but Eder is much better written." He was written by a bunch of writers who were mega fans of Joss Whedon and jammed their version of the goofy brooding hero into the story without really thinking about if it made sense.
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Jun 3, 2020 14:45
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Alistair only made sense for me when I realized that he was cultivated since he was a child by Arl Eamon to become a puppet king letting Eamon become the power behind the throne.
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Jun 3, 2020 14:54
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Yeah theres a huge tonal issue in Dragon Age because the writers loved Joss Whedon quipping and also GRRM dark and gritty and it turns out those do NOT blend very well It's also the main reason I dislike Sera, it's not so much that she's awful it's just that she belongs in a different game
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Jun 3, 2020 14:55
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Alistair went from "kind of annoying but a fine companion" to "whiny punk bitch" in my eyes when he stormed off, potentially dooming Fereldan, just because I spared Loghain.
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Jun 3, 2020 15:09
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In Emerald Graves I stumbled upon my strongest party yet: My necro/fire mage, Cassandra, Sera and Vivienne. I didn't expect them to do so well but I've tackled two giants and come out of it with everyone at full health. I just returned to try and wrap up Cassandra's mission, and stumbled into the giant area again. We had to kill one and managed to do it without aggroing any of the rhinos. Great! And then a rhino walked right across my fire mine and triggered almost fifteen minutes of every goddamn rhino on the map rushing to the fight. I've never seen that before in this game, and wound up in a huge pile of animal loot.
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Jun 3, 2020 15:16
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People really need to get over Whedon. Alistair is a great companion with a lot of good writing and genuine heart put into him. If you're that triggered by some quips that you're going to ignore all of that then honestly maybe the issue is with you tbh. Theres enough room for jokes and dark themes in something. Its actually often more effective to mix the two because all grimdark all the time is too oppressive and full standup has no stakes. GRRM has characters quipping all the time for just that reason. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Jun 3, 2020 |
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Jun 3, 2020 15:34
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Oddly the more time I spent with Alistair after giving him the brush off in my first playthrough the more I liked him. The Cousland playthrough where the Warden is like 'screw it imma be queen' was surprisingly satisfying.
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Jun 3, 2020 16:03
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It's me, I unironically like all these "Whedonesque" quipy companions.
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Jun 3, 2020 16:16
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The other npcs call Alistair out on his man-baby act pretty frequently. He's a well written character, but also an extremely strange one, when you take the gravity of the situation into consideration.Doctor Reynolds posted:Alistair went from "kind of annoying but a fine companion" to "whiny punk bitch" in my eyes when he stormed off, potentially dooming Fereldan, just because I spared Loghain. To be fair, Ferelden is not a great place to be at that point 
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Jun 3, 2020 16:19
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Whedonesque quippy comments are fine once in a while but around Andromeda BioWare decided they were to be the bulk of the script
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Jun 3, 2020 16:33
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I'm not even saying they're bad just that they sit weirdly in the tone of what the rest of dragon age tries to be
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Jun 3, 2020 16:36
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Shugojin posted:Yeah theres a huge tonal issue in Dragon Age because the writers loved Joss Whedon quipping and also GRRM dark and gritty and it turns out those do NOT blend very well Metal gear is I think think one of the only games that makes that jarring contrast work.
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Jun 3, 2020 16:38
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Shugojin posted:Yeah theres a huge tonal issue in Dragon Age because the writers loved Joss Whedon quipping and also GRRM dark and gritty and it turns out those do NOT blend very well I still don't get why they tried to make 'swooping is bad' a thing.
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Jun 3, 2020 16:42
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I remember going to a talk with David Gaider, Patrick Weekes, and Karin Weekes, and one of the things that came up was how they decided on a specific way everybody in the Dragon Age universe would talk (I don't remember the actual rules, just that they existed). They mentioned that they had to specifically break these rules for Alistair
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Jun 3, 2020 17:16
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Nephthys posted:People really need to get over Whedon.
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Jun 3, 2020 22:03
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