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Firstly, there is a TRAILER for the new movie, D U N C by DENIS VILLENEUVE: Be warned that, it's a trailer. If you want to avoid visual/stylistic, or narrative spoilers, this trailer and entire OP is fairly spoiler-lite but I absolve myself of any responsibility for your spoiler-status beyond this point all the same. This thread is almost three years of open, unrestrained book discussion that's littered with untagged spoilers. More recent discussion will (hopefuly) observe some decorum about this, but seriously, if you care about spoilers, evaluate whether or not to continue! Thanks! As a matter of courtesy, I'd ask anyone talking about books to leave questions about narrative and such spoilered. ---- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAQCH3wObeU Denis Villeneuve made the movies Sicario, Arrival, and the Blade Runner followup. If you've seen his work, you know he has a pretty distinct style. One I've always thought would be prime for Dune and I'm frankly floored someone like Denis got to do this. This was probably the best possible outcome for a Dune adaptation, and hey this is maybe the dumbest possible bright spot in this awful, awful yuear. The dune series is a series of really good books. They're branded as sci-fi but the hard-sci is scant. This is a book series about the capacities of the human mind, weird drugs, sietch orgies, religion as a tool of statecraft, in a world that came to eschew thinking machines for the danger they posed to humanity. For this reason you're not likely to read too many words describing anything like the computer as we know it. The first three books are set really far in the future, and the second set is even way drat further into the future.\ The first three books are also kind of their own self contained story, and many people think you can and should start and finish here.    God Emperor Of Dune is a really weird book. I haven't read anything else like it, ever. It's also the bridge between the first three books and the next series. I think the merits of this book place it up there with the first, but it's a polarizing book. It's also the beginning of Frank Herbert typing a bunch of weird sex poo poo probably with his rock hard dick while smoking a shitload of weed. The only thing I can say about this book is, you should really read everything prior before attempting it, it relies heavily on the context laid down before it.  These two are the ones written toward the end, and Frank died before writing the last in a planned trilogy.   Brian Herbert (May God rip his tongue out) decided, decades after the death of his dad, to use his dad's notes and concepts to save his own floundering career, and wrote a book I haven't read but by all accounts doesn't come close to touching the level of his father's abilities as a writer. But if you like pulp sci-fi and just like reading poo poo, and don't have an irrational dislike for them arousing out of your love for the old books, you can probably do worse. I can't say for sure. Anyway these books are books I love, and I like talking about them. I've picked up a handful of the originals on Audible, and I have to say the audiobook for Dune is really loving great. I just finished Messiah and I am now into Children Of Dune. Everyone should read and venerate these books imo. Riot Bimbo fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Dec 9, 2017 10:01
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Wait, I was supposed to read Messiah before Children? No wonder it didn't make much sense. I gave up. 
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Dec 9, 2017 10:07
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I read Dune and loved it, but found the others too esoteric and self-fellating for my tastes. Dune is drat good though.
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Dec 9, 2017 10:09
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Thanks basic hitler now I will forever see that weird dick worm guy when I think of Frank Herbert's rock hard dick.
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Dec 9, 2017 10:11
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Dune was good the rest really did get to weird for my tastes. Still one of my favorite sci-fi universes.
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Dec 9, 2017 10:14
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Vaginal Vagrant posted:Thanks basic hitler now I will forever see that weird dick worm guy when I think of Frank Herbert's rock hard dick. Frank's cock was named Leto for sure. I feel like Dune Messiah is way more straightforward than even Dune itself. It's not bouncing around a whole bunch of characters, instead it hones in on Paul and just a few other pov's, and the narrative scope is very narrow and more traditional. I remember children of dune the least, and it's why i started this adventure again. I'm glad to be back to it and reading it again, but so far it's about the same. God Emperor is so loving weird as i recall it, once i finally understood what was happening i had a WAIT WHAT moment and i made myself reread everything before that moment to grasp it again. Loved it though.
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Dec 9, 2017 10:18
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That's interesting, I think one of the reason's I enjoyed Dune more than any of the others was because it struck me as the one having the most cohesive and straightforward plot and characters. It had some weirdness, but it made sense given that it is set a bajillion years or whatever in the future and is easily accounted for. Messiah ramps up the weird factor at the expense of compelling plot and narrative, and the others just seem to get worse. Dune, as you say, bounces around characters more, but the sequels bounce much more around narrative tone, and I started wondering what kind of story I was supposed to be following from one chapter to the next. Admittedly, I am fairly dense. edit: it was kind of like reading a Bible that was a mixture of the Torah and a Philip K Dick adaptation Zippy the Bummer fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Dec 9, 2017 |
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Dec 9, 2017 10:34
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basic hitler posted:Brian Herbert (May God rip his tongue out) decided, decades after the death of his dad, to use his dad's notes and concepts to save his own floundering career, and wrote a book I haven't read but by all accounts doesn't come close to touching the level of his father's abilities as a writer. But if you like pulp sci-fi and just like reading poo poo, and don't have an irrational dislike for them arousing out of your love for the old books, you can probably do worse. I can't say for sure. He also decided that it was too hard to write them alone so he enlisted Kevin J. Anderson, who wrote a bunch of Star Wars novels. Kevin J Anderson has the imagination of a child so these books explained all the things that Frank Herbert deliberately didn't explore, and had them be the most obvious thing ever. Why did the Butlerian Jihad happen? Why, the robots rose up and had to be destroyed, of course! No major shift in society from philosophy or introspection, no way.
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Dec 9, 2017 10:55
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It says it right there in the name. The robot butlers got cranky. I think the religious and philosophical components, particularly the little verses at the start of chapters, really give you a great feel for what is in a lot of ways a set of very alien cultures.
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Dec 9, 2017 11:04
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Zippy the Bummer posted:That's interesting, I think one of the reason's I enjoyed Dune more than any of the others was because it struck me as the one having the most cohesive and straightforward plot and characters. It had some weirdness, but it made sense given that it is set a bajillion years or whatever in the future and is easily accounted for. Messiah ramps up the weird factor at the expense of compelling plot and narrative, and the others just seem to get worse. Well, Messiah deals a lot with the religious aspects of his life. He's kind of having to live with a lot of choices, because he chose a path of survival that required joining the Fremen under a religious pretext, and how he's extolled as a living God. It's going to ponder on religion quite a bit. I haven't sketched out the theme of Children yet but I hope it's gonna go elsewhere. We'll see.
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Dec 9, 2017 11:05
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I see that, I do, and I think that might be why Messiah and some of the other sequels left my enthusiasm dulled. Dune is so different from the others, I think, and I was expecting them all to be roughly the same in style, if not quality.
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Dec 9, 2017 11:18
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basic hitler posted:Well, Messiah deals a lot with the religious aspects of his life. He's kind of having to live with a lot of choices, because he chose a path of survival that required joining the Fremen under a religious pretext, and how he's extolled as a living God. It's going to ponder on religion quite a bit. well im a big human being and i think that deals with alot of my choices, like sucking off dudes on a path of survival that required me to suck a whole lot of dicks under a religious pretext, and, hell, im a huge human being. excuse me while i ponder on religion quite a bit, i need to figure out children. hold on.
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Dec 9, 2017 11:25
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Zippy the Bummer posted:I see that, I do, and I think that might be why Messiah and some of the other sequels left my enthusiasm dulled. Dune is so different from the others, I think, and I was expecting them all to be roughly the same in style, if not quality. I think Herbert hated stagnation a lot. The fear of a stagnant humanity runs rampant through the books, it follows that if he couldn't do things slightly differently every time, he didn't really want to do it. Why write more dune stuff without changing what it's about? I'm not trying to sell you on something you didn't like, by the way, so don't take it that way. Dune is definitely different, but I think it's different because it's relatively unfocused. It has things to say about technology, war, power, gender politics, drug abuse, asceticism versus hedonism, and a bunch of other poo poo, but it's also why it's different from the rest of the books, maybe.
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Dec 9, 2017 11:27
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Was the personal shield/lasgun interaction ever addressed? Seems like two standard pieces of any soldiers kit that could be combined to form the equivalent of a nuclear weapon is a real bad idea. That's assuming some one purposely trying to inflict as much mayhem as possible, let alone some one just bungling it and firing off a blast that accidentally hits an active shield.
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Dec 9, 2017 11:36
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Harrower posted:Was the personal shield/lasgun interaction ever addressed? Seems like two standard pieces of any soldiers kit that could be combined to form the equivalent of a nuclear weapon is a real bad idea. That's assuming some one purposely trying to inflict as much mayhem as possible, let alone some one just bungling it and firing off a blast that accidentally hits an active shield. I think lasguns were expensive to make and deploy, making them cost prohibitive except for someone like house corinno and harkonnen, maybe? It's been a couple of weeks now, but i seem to recall that the lasgun-shield reaction engulfs both parties and is nuclear in nature. It seems like if you were waging interplanetary warfare, you could create las-bombs that would react with shielded palaces and cities to wipe out entire strategic assets and all, but for troop to troop ground warfare, the risk of a blast hitting a shield and killing both defender and attacker meant that under most circumstances an army would not have access to lasguns when their opponent was known to deploy shields
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Dec 9, 2017 11:42
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basic hitler posted:I think Herbert hated stagnation a lot. The fear of a stagnant humanity runs rampant through the books, it follows that if he couldn't do things slightly differently every time, he didn't really want to do it. Why write more dune stuff without changing what it's about? Those are good points, and I think I will try re-reading the (first few) sequels in light of that. Although I think it will probably boil down to a difference in taste.
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Dec 9, 2017 11:56
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basic hitler posted:I think lasguns were expensive to make and deploy, making them cost prohibitive except for someone like house corinno and harkonnen, maybe? Suicide bombers today are a pretty major concern and the best most of them can manage is some ANFO wrapped with nails. Giving those guys nukes seems like a real problem. They were probably out of reach for the common citizenry cost wise, but it's not like the dune universe is short of wealthy malcontents. From what I can recall almost any vaguely militaristic organization had them readily available, and the governments hardly had the economy under control as there were smugglers and black markets selling stuff all over the place. I've been following dune discussions here and there for years and I've just never seen an answer that wasn't opinion and speculation. The books just sort of go along with it and never play it out which always annoyed me.
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Dec 9, 2017 11:57
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Just putting it out there that the best dune game was the firstr one with based after David Lynches Dune.
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Dec 9, 2017 11:57
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My favorite part of Dune is when Duke Leto is explaining to Paul how he is totally wise to the Harkonnens' schemes, and how he is going to totally gently caress them with the Fremen, but just before he can do it they get betrayed and the desperate losing battle begins that's the good poo poo
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Dec 9, 2017 11:59
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Dune is some Spenserian poo poo
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Dec 9, 2017 12:02
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I've read up to God Emperor. I've heard Heretics gets weirder somehow.
Lareine fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Dec 9, 2017 |
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Dec 9, 2017 12:17
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Harrower posted:Suicide bombers today are a pretty major concern and the best most of them can manage is some ANFO wrapped with nails. Giving those guys nukes seems like a real problem. They were probably out of reach for the common citizenry cost wise, but it's not like the dune universe is short of wealthy malcontents. From what I can recall almost any vaguely militaristic organization had them readily available, and the governments hardly had the economy under control as there were smugglers and black markets selling stuff all over the place. I've been following dune discussions here and there for years and I've just never seen an answer that wasn't opinion and speculation. The books just sort of go along with it and never play it out which always annoyed me. What's funny is that Duncan Idaho actually does this while on the run. It's not a suicide, but he does trick the sardukar into firing on shields and it wipes out a fuckload of them. The world of Dune is governed by a society that's very different. It has a very serf-peasant-lord class hierarchy until Messiah where the fuedal government is replaced with a theocracy with a reigning priest class, but the divisions of class don't really change. In order to become a terrorist you need an education, a cause to do it for, and radical motivations. Ask yourself if the average person who could be radicalized into a suicidal frenzy would be likely to access an expensive weapon that's likely closely restricted. The houses who can get such things don't do it or encourage it, because it puts them at risk of reprisal by other houses. The dune universe is very medieval in its government and socialstructure. That's basically necessary, as space is insurmountable geography except for those who can afford to fly by way of a guild heighliner. If the guys who make lasguns are on another planet, and the only people who can import lasguns are the local reigning house, and they control their use tightly, a lasgun in a private citizen's hands, much less an extremist radical looking to blow themselves to shreds would need state support or be very drat lucky. I'm also gonna say that Frank almost certainly didn't think about it as much as you or I have. Again, without some law or gentlemans agreement, an erected shield is basically begging any hostile house to make a weapon that triggers a lasgun blast on a timer or remotely to detonate large shielded objects. A palace shield basically becomes a "PLEASE TURN ME INTO A HUGE BOMB" sign. There is a big problem with shields as they exist in Dune without more information than was ever described, for sure.
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Dec 9, 2017 12:24
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Lareine posted:I've read up to God Emperor. I've heard Heretics gets weirdo somehow. it's set way after that book, and right as the consequences of leto's actions really start to affect the old imperium. It is pretty weird, and you won't recognize any of the characters (except one or two!) and they contain vivid descriptions of women who have sex so well that they can turn anyone they gently caress into a nearly mindless slave. I had a hard time reading it after a sequence basically played out like "you are just like a bene gesserit witch! your games will not work on me!" "she contorted her pussy in the honored matre way, and the pleasure overloaded his brain" "drat... I am now your slave." but it has its merits in spite of that silliness. Riot Bimbo fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Dec 9, 2017 |
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Dec 9, 2017 12:28
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Harrower posted:Suicide bombers today are a pretty major concern and the best most of them can manage is some ANFO wrapped with nails. Giving those guys nukes seems like a real problem. They were probably out of reach for the common citizenry cost wise, but it's not like the dune universe is short of wealthy malcontents. From what I can recall almost any vaguely militaristic organization had them readily available, and the governments hardly had the economy under control as there were smugglers and black markets selling stuff all over the place. I've been following dune discussions here and there for years and I've just never seen an answer that wasn't opinion and speculation. The books just sort of go along with it and never play it out which always annoyed me. The Dune Encyclopedia says they're heavily restricted outside of "wild planets." The roleplaying game also deals with them, in that lasguns are *sometimes* issued to elite troops in certain circumstances, but never on a permanent basis. There will also be wealthy people with lasguns as collector's items but with their power sources removed; like an antique gun with the barrel filled up with concrete. I think the main thing is that open warfare, nuclear attacks, etc. are taboo and will get you punished by the intersecting, tightly-woven feudal power structures in the universe. So the Harkonnen lasgun shipment was already an extreme move that was treated with ultra-triple-secrecy. Also most people in the Dune universe are peasants and slaves (even the Atreides have slaves) and you know one of them getting their hands on a lasgun would be a five-alarm emergency to hunt that person down and chop his head off. Also another thing about the shields, was that it was a popular idea in old-school sci-fi (and I mean like old-timey old-fashioned sci-fi that had already been dead and forgotten by the 1960s). So like H.G. Wells type stuff, or at least that's what I heard. So Herbert was ripping off an earlier idea, but everyone thinks he came up with it. BluPotato posted:Just putting it out there that the best dune game was the firstr one with based after David Lynches Dune. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 12:55 on Dec 9, 2017 |
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Dec 9, 2017 12:32
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With Denis Villeneuve attached to a Dune film project these scenes from Blade Runner 2049 make much more sense as a trial run for the visuals / color palette / etc.:  Also Villeneuve owns and is the best possible director they could've picked for the project. IMO it's one of the upsides to the Herbert estate holding onto the IP with such a death grip over these years even if you're not a fan of the BH/JKA novels.
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Dec 9, 2017 12:45
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😀
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Dec 9, 2017 12:49
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Aww man. I have to see the new blade runner at some point. Bet it looks awesome on the big screen
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Dec 9, 2017 12:51
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lovely feyd
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Dec 9, 2017 12:52
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I had a roommate in high school whose favourite book was The Butlerian Jihad and his favourite band was Dimmu Borgir.
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Dec 9, 2017 12:55
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Harrower posted:Suicide bombers today are a pretty major concern and the best most of them can manage is some ANFO wrapped with nails. Giving those guys nukes seems like a real problem. They were probably out of reach for the common citizenry cost wise, but it's not like the dune universe is short of wealthy malcontents. From what I can recall almost any vaguely militaristic organization had them readily available, and the governments hardly had the economy under control as there were smugglers and black markets selling stuff all over the place. I've been following dune discussions here and there for years and I've just never seen an answer that wasn't opinion and speculation. The books just sort of go along with it and never play it out which always annoyed me. They mention lasgun use is rare because if one hits a shield the resulting explosion would be so big that it kills both sides anywhere near it and the landsraad might think a house actually violated the prohibition on atomics which is serious
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Dec 9, 2017 12:59
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Yeah, it follows that lasguns would be hard to get. projectile and explosive weapons exist and are employed to great effect and the lasguns and such are basically high-end shinies for special operations by landsraad houses.
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Dec 9, 2017 13:02
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One of the things Herbert talked about in interviews was that Dune is about bewaring of superheroes and powerful political leaders. Well, actually, going full Death of the Author here, Herbert is wrong because that theme doesn't come up that much in the books. The ecological stuff is way more important. But Herbert was probably talking about powerful leaders in interviews because no one picked up on that theme in the novels. drat, no one is talking about this very important thing I believe in! He also really hated John F. Kennedy. I actually don't blame him.
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Dec 9, 2017 13:08
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Herbert seemed like a libertarian but an old-school kind of libertarian from the Pacific Northwest who was also into environmentalism. I'm not sure that breed is around much these days. But that weird blend is probably why so many different people respond to Dune and get something out of it. Also he seemed like a poo poo father to grow up around reading BH's biography of him. Like dad in his writing room pounding away at the typewriter while classical music is blaring and you DARE NOT DISTURB HIM. Also he disowned his gay son who went on to die in the 1980s from HIV I think. He wrote some good books although he generally seemed like a lovely dude. Eh, well, sci-fi novelists.... BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Dec 9, 2017 |
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Dec 9, 2017 13:10
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Lurks Morington posted:Aww man. I have to see the new blade runner at some point. Bet it looks awesome on the big screen Sort of sad that was a box office bomb but the movie rocked especially how it captured the visual design of the original movie.
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Dec 9, 2017 13:28
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God emperor is really good and the only sci fi book I've read that actually dives into the whole prescience theme headfirst, like this is the conclusion of the first three books, no more pussyfooting around, we finally learn what the golden path is all about and the resolution is tied directly to the themes that moved the plot forward in the first 3. It's very good. The ones after it are all garbage that ultimately devolves into x-men like nonsense and should probably be avoided.
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Dec 9, 2017 13:36
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Leto II did everything wrong
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Dec 9, 2017 13:40
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I thought there was only one book in the dune series that's good?
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Dec 9, 2017 13:40
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I've seen goons bring up the disowned gay son thing repeatedly and my admittedly shallow excursions yield no information about it. It feels like even a skin deep search would yield a source for this allegation if it were real. Can you provide something so i can not be dumb about it? The only homophobic readings that are ever inferred by anyone are due to the baron being an evil scheming gay man, and the conclusion that's leapt to is a hard conclusion of overt homophobia, which is extreme. The baron's homosexuality feels incidental to his evilness and that feels backed up by the actions of his nephews. I'd love a source for anything regarding those allegations. I bet he wasn't a good dad, but he doesn't strike me as a "disown my diseased gay son" type. From what I can tell he just hated soviets, heavy metal, and distrusted government. Seems pretty reasonable for an American who came of age during the depression. Homophobia would, also, be pretty expected of someone born in 1920 but I'm not interested in excusing anything, i only want a source for it.
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Dec 9, 2017 13:46
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"Dreamer of Dune" by Brian Herbert I believe.
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Dec 9, 2017 13:54
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gender illusionist posted:I thought there was only one book in the dune series that's good?
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Dec 9, 2017 13:56
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